CONFIRMATION: There Were NO Grey Niagaras!

Ed Mullan posted:

After watching hundreds of B&O steam when  I was a youngster, I think Art can be forgiven...I can't remember anything but new EM 1's being black. Grey, that patina of dirt that seems to cover most steam engines in well used service, is what I remember most as the color of most Mikes, Pacifics, others, and for that matter, the many Consolidations of the Western Maryland, also near my home town.

Ed

I agree, and yet I hope no one takes issue with Ed on this.  Remember, he is going by memories etched into his mind a VERY long time ago.   He reached out to the experts for clarification and got it.

That's to be commended rather than saying the equivalent of "duh" to him.

Tinplate Art posted:

Mr. Gerbracht, author of Know Thy Niagaras, confirmed via e-mail that, to the best of his knowledge, there were NO GREY Niagaras.  

Probably just as well. 

There would've ensued a forum post ad nauseum regarding the choice of 'grey' on the final model.  Y'all know already that it would be 'WRONG!!'

I mean, there's already 50 Shades of Grey () out there, and surely you know that the review of this Niagara-on-Viagra, 6-85267, would be the 51st!

It's danged near enough to drive one to choo-choo seppuku!

But thankfully the PC (Prototypically Correct) police are looking out for us.

Sleep well, my friend.

Toy trains....fantasy....fun........phooey!

Gramps,

   I am with ya buddy the Gray is way cool!

PCRR/Dave

John and Al I too am from Niagara Falls. It drives me crazy when people misspell Niagara. I lived on Pierce Avenue at Whirlpool Street and saw a lot of NYC engines steam by I swear some of them were gray.   Al

Tinplate Art, thanks for pursuing this to a definitive expert answer.

Once again, as,a former English professor and teacher of grammar and literature, I am mortified about my egregious spelling error, and I offer my sincere apology to all NIAGARA residents for my faux pas! MEO CULPA!

Tin Plate Art,

  CID Special Agents, Engineers, Lawyers and Doctors employ secretary's for this kind of mundane busy work. Please I am Engineering to allow people easier lives and so people can travel into space, we let our secretary handle the spelling correction.  

English Professor and Grammar Teacher, don't apologize for your spelling error, apologize for your profession. 

Never apologize it's a sign of weakness.

Just a little more sarcasm!

PCRR/Dave

I would have thought engineers would understand the need for precision

(And, yes:  that is an attempt at an English Teacher joke by an English Teacher.)

Don't recall any NYC locomotive having anything but a black boiler.   That is opposed to other railroads that regularly painted steam locomotive boilers a different color:  CPR/maroon and grey, NP/grey, KCS 2-10-4/grey, DMIR/grey, GN/"Glacier Park" green, SP/green, 1 Rock Island 4-8-2/red, SRR Passenger/green, as examples.

mark s posted:

Don't recall any NYC locomotive having anything but a black boiler.   That is opposed to other railroads that regularly painted steam locomotive boilers a different color:  CPR/maroon and grey, NP/grey, KCS 2-10-4/grey, DMIR/grey, GN/"Glacier Park" green, SP/green, 1 Rock Island 4-8-2/red, SRR Passenger/green, as examples.

The exception would be the P&LE Berkshires, which were olive green:

Rusty

I strongly disagree with Pine Creek's assertion that apologizing shows weakness - some of our current politicians would be more respected if they did so. All of us make mistakes, including engineers, and it is a sign of humility and strength to apologize, and NOT weakness. BTW, my son is an aeronautical engineer currently employed by Northrup Grumman.

I also recommend Know Thy Niagaras by Tom Gerbracht, a board member of the New York Central System Historical Society. His book includes many photos and detailed roster information on these magnificant locomotives!

Tinplate Art posted:

I beg to differ concerning Pine Creek's assertion that apologizing shows weakness - some of our current politicians would be more respected if they did so. All of us make mistakes, including engineers, and it is a sign of humility to apologize, and NOT weakness. BTW, my son is an aeronautical engineer currently employed by Northrup Grumman.

I agree, apologizing is not a sign of weakness.  To me it is a sign of strength that we can admit our mistakes and move on having learned something. 

Small world.  My younger brother is an aeronautical engineer for Grumman now too. He was with ATK which sold the aerospace division to Orbital Science who then was bought by Grumman last year. 

I have to applaud you for asking a question and then doing the research to validate the final answer.  As for the spelling, it happens all the time.  If New York Central would have just called Niagaras by their proper name as Northerns, we wouldn't have that problem.   

THANK YOU, Jonathan! Your posts are always memorable and informative!

GG1 4877 posted:

  If New York Central would have just called Niagaras by their proper name as Northerns, we wouldn't have that problem.   

Funny, I thought all 4-8-4s were supposed to be called Poconos.  

I like ALL the names for Northerns: Pocono's, Dixies (NC&StL), Niagaras, and any others I might have missed; variety makes life interesting!

The Nacionales de Mexico's 4-8-4's were also called Niagaras. Except, it was pronounced "knee uh gar uh", ala Spanish !

The NYC Niagara smoke box front was not restricted to just NYC:  the Milwaukee Road's S2 and S3 4-8-4's had a similar smoke box front.  And they weren't the originals, they were replacements !

I'm also partial to Potomacs and Wyomings myself!  The 4-8-4 was truly the epitome of modern steam locomotive designs.  Sad that most didn't see a full life of service. 

mark s posted:

The Nacionales de Mexico's 4-8-4's were also called Niagaras. Except, it was pronounced "knee uh gar uh", ala Spanish !

I always like the NdeM Niagara.  It was the smallest and lightest of the 4-8-4 mainlines steam locomotives built.  As I recall they ran as late as 1969 also?  Someone help me confirm that.  For people who like scale large locomotives, but have smaller layouts, this might actually be an interesting candidate for a model.

The NC&StL Dixie class series, (570 and 580) were the second lightest 4-8-4's ever built. They were designed here in Nashville, TN by the then Superintendent of Machinery, Clarence M. Darden, and built by ALCO in Schenectady, NY. These engines were equipped with roller bearings on all axles, and gave reliable WWII service. They were also known for their smooth riding capability. The 576, which is in the process of restoration here in Nashville, and will eventually be removed from Centennial Park to the Tennessee Central Museum, where it hopefully will oprerate in excursion service on the Nashville and Eastern Railway in the near future. Inspection work already carried out in the park has revealed no major mechanical issues, and this is remarkable considering this loco has sat in the elements for 64 years!

This engine has a Commonwealth one-piece bed casting with integral cylinders, and also lateral motion drive boxes on two axles. This lightweight engine will not have any weight restrictions on existing bridges, nor any tunnel clearance issues.

For what it's worth, the six TP&W 4-8-4s were the lightest ever built, at only 361,000 pounds. The NdeM 4-8-4s were something over 385,000 pounds.

Hot Water posted:

For what it's worth, the six TP&W 4-8-4s were the lightest ever built, at only 361,000 pounds. The NdeM 4-8-4s were something over 385,000 pounds.

It's good to learn something new every day!  Thanks for the info.

My information on the Dixie class locomotives came from the late, great editor of TRAINS magazine in a 1963 article. I have always accepted his statement until now, with Hot Water's post. I stand corrected! :-)

I just confirmed via the Internet that the 576 weighed 381,000 pounds, making them heavier than the TP&W engines, but lighter than the NdEM locos.

Tinplate Art posted:

My information on the Dixie class locomotives came from the late, great editor of TRAINS magazine in a 1963 article. I have always accepted his statement until now, with Hot Water's post. I stand corrected! :-)

Not to worry Art, I used to have a LOT of phone conversations with the late David P. Morgan, when I worked for EMD. Every time the Public Relations and Advertising Dept. couldn't answer Mr. Morgan's questions, they usually transferred him to my phone extension. Thus, I had to either answer Mr. Morgan's questions directly, or conduct the research and then call him back. It didn't take long for him to start calling me direct. Mr. Morgan is on of my favorite authors/writers, and an all around  REALLY nice guy.

HW: I agree! I met him a couple of times on Southern Steam excursions, and actually gave him and Margaret a lift from the Nashville Union Station after a 4501 trip in 1981 in my '67 VW! One of my heroes! :-)

HW: The article I was referring to was in the Dec. 1963 issue, in case you want to read it 

A couple of NdeM 4-8-4's ran in helper service out of the Valle de Mexico yard until 1968. This constituted the last mainline steam locomotive useage in North America. The NA steam finale in regular service was NW Steel & Wire ex-GTW 0-8-0's used until 1982, at Sterling, IL.