Help Me Identify this MTH Locomotive

I love it, someone put an LED headlight in it but nary thought one of replacing the original 20+ year old white battery???

That's the kind of thing to take someone to task over on maintenance 101.

To answer the question, it looks like an MTH F3 or F7 with Protosounds 1.0.

i bought ABA set off of eBay of MTH NP F3 with PS1, I put it on the track, it moved so far, then never moved again. I did something wrong, like not change the battery. Three clanks of death? Not the MTH guru for sure. I intend to convert it to TMCC/Cruise Commander, but I will take a set of test leads and a DC power supply and show both motors in the powered A unit work. Don't know about the tail F3. Don't know about what goes over the connector, yet. Waiting for a plastic shield from MTH parts.

I believe MTH sells upgrades to PS3. Might be an issue with the coil couplers, gunrunnerjohn is the expert there.

MTH link:

https://www.mthpartsandsales.c...ts/240?type=products

The PS1 reset kit is out of stock.

You could also convert to Bluenami or Bluerail. Not the expert. I have not ruled out converting from TMCC/Legacy to either of the blues.

It is an MTH Railking Santa Fe F3 AA Diesel Engine Set #16/#17 with Proto Sound (1) from 1998 - product number 30-2131-1.

Do not apply power to it until you install a new 9-volt battery or a BCR.

MELGAR

Mike,

Melgar's right on the money here.  Do not operate it with the white battery installed.  If you do there's a good chance you'll scramble the software in it.

If that happens is it the end of the world?  No.  There will be no harm to the electronics.  You will need to have the software updated though to correct the problem if it happens.

Engines fitted with ProtoSound 1 are unique beasts. They're not command controlled like ProtoSound 2 or 3 models.  They're really conventionally-operated units like the rest of your fleet of 50 year old engines, but they have an unusual start-up process to get them moving.

Most conventional O Gauge locomotives power up and react in this way:

     Neutral -- Forward -- Neutral -- Reverse -- Neutral -- Forward -- etc.

Every time you cycle the throttle, down to zero and then up, or push the reverse button on the transformer, they transition to the next state.

PS1's follow this sequence instead:

    Setup -- Neutral -- Forward -- Neutral -- Reverse -- Neutral -- Forward -- etc.

You're loco is stuck in 'Setup' because you aren't applying power correctly when you first push the throttle up.  PS1's are quite finicky about this.

The means for doing this is different between older PS1's and newer ones.  You have a newer one so it should be less finicky.

Here's how I would do it (once you've changed the battery):

1. With the engine on the track, move the throttle up smoothly to above 1/2 of full range.
2. Wait a couple of seconds then lower it to about 1/4.  The sounds should quiet and you'll hear a clunk that kind of sounds like an old Buick dropping into drive after its gear selector is moved to 'D'
3. Push the 'Direction' button.  It should begin moving forward immediately.

Note: These are not the steps to use with an older PS1.  For the older ones the steps are almost the opposite., i.e. don't go over 1/2 of full scale (10 VAC) and don't push the direction button. (see Vernon's posting immediately below this one, but be aware that the directions he's posted, although they come directly from MTH, from my hands-on experience with these don't seem to fit the vintage of your model).

You may have to try this several times in order to get the hang of it.  Patience is important here, just like with most things in our hobby.

I pains me greatly to hear comments like some of those in this thread above.  You do not have to upgrade to any newer electronics.  Comments to the contrary often come from folks who don't have the patience that I mentioned.

There is no need to spend significant money to get this thing rolling.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Mike

Also, from the product page the manualhttps://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/30dl16171i.pdf

**** After you replace that 20 year old white battery**********************

Proto-Sound® is equipped with a microprocessor, that, depending on the
amount of memory it is allotted, allows the user to utilize several remotely
activated functions. In the simplest terms, Proto-Sound® has its own
“Computer" controlling these functions. In order to access many of these
remotely controlled functions, the user must be in the RESET state to do so.
RESET is entered anytime power to the locomotive has been off for more
than 3 to 5 seconds. When the engine first enters RESET, the
microprocessor initiates a system check to determine if the system,
transformer and engine are operating correctly. This takes approximately 5
seconds during which you will hear the engine’s startup sounds begin. In
order for Proto-Sound® to properly initiate the system check, do not
advance the transform er throttle past 10 volts when you first enter RESET,
wait for the diesel startup sounds to begin and then slowly turn the
transformer throttle to the off position and then back on again to enter the
forward phase. Interrupting the power too quickly may cause the system to
re-enter RESET (signaled by two dings of the bell). Should this happen,
wait longer before interrupting the power to enter the Forward phase.

@MELGAR posted:

It is an MTH Railking Santa Fe F3 AA Diesel Engine Set #16/#17 with Proto Sound (1) from 1998 - product number 30-2131-1.

Do not apply power to it until you install a new 9-volt battery or a BCR.

MELGAR

Thanks MELGAR. I put in a new 9V battery and voila! It runs beautifully. It'll take some time for me to grow fond of the lag time between any changes of state. I suppose the intent is to mimic the way a real diesel locomotive would operate?

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Mike,

Melgar's right on the money here.  Do not operate it with the white battery installed.  If you do there's a good chance you'll scramble the software in it.

If that happens is it the end of the world?  No.  There will be no harm to the electronics.  You will need to have the software updated though to correct the problem if it happens.

Engines fitted with ProtoSound 1 are unique beasts. They're not command controlled like ProtoSound 2 or 3 models.  They're really conventionally-operated units like the rest of your fleet of 50 year old engines, but they have an unusual start-up process to get them moving.

Most conventional O Gauge locomotives power up and react in this way:

     Neutral -- Forward -- Neutral -- Reverse -- Neutral -- Forward -- etc.

Every time you cycle the throttle, down to zero and then up, or push the reverse button on the transformer, they transition to the next state.

PS1's follow this sequence instead:

    Setup -- Neutral -- Forward -- Neutral -- Reverse -- Neutral -- Forward -- etc.

You're loco is stuck in 'Setup' because you aren't applying power correctly when you first push the throttle up.  PS1's are quite finicky about this.

The means for doing this is different between older PS1's and newer ones.  You have a newer one so it should be less finicky.

Here's how I would do it (once you've changed the battery):

1. With the engine on the track, move the throttle up smoothly to above 1/2 of full range.
2. Wait a couple of seconds then lower it to about 1/4.  The sounds should quiet and you'll hear a clunk that kind of sounds like an old Buick dropping into drive after its gear selector is moved to 'D'
3. Push the 'Direction' button.  It should begin moving forward immediately.

Note: These are not the steps to use with an older PS1.  For the older ones the steps are almost the opposite., i.e. don't go over 1/2 of full scale (10 VAC) and don't push the direction button. (see Vernon's posting immediately below this one, but be aware that the directions he's posted, although they come directly from MTH, from my hands-on experience with these don't seem to fit the vintage of your model).

You may have to try this several times in order to get the hang of it.  Patience is important here, just like with most things in our hobby.

I pains me greatly to hear comments like some of those in this thread above.  You do not have to upgrade to any newer electronics.  Comments to the contrary often come from folks who don't have the patience that I mentioned.

There is no need to spend significant money to get this thing rolling.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Mike

Thanks Mellow Mike

It's running now with a new 9V battery. Apparently I did no harm to the software despite my previous attempts to run this with a dead battery. It is now operating as you described above for the PS1.

Mike

@Mossback Mike posted:

Thanks MELGAR. I put in a new 9V battery and voila! It runs beautifully. It'll take some time for me to grow fond of the lag time between any changes of state. I suppose the intent is to mimic the way a real diesel locomotive would operate?

The battery should be rechargeable. niCad or NiMH. Don’t use Alkalines.

Pete

@Vernon Barry posted:

Also, from the product page the manualhttps://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/30dl16171i.pdf

**** After you replace that 20 year old white battery**********************

Proto-Sound® is equipped with a microprocessor, that, depending on the
amount of memory it is allotted, allows the user to utilize several remotely
activated functions. In the simplest terms, Proto-Sound® has its own
“Computer" controlling these functions. In order to access many of these
remotely controlled functions, the user must be in the RESET state to do so.
RESET is entered anytime power to the locomotive has been off for more
than 3 to 5 seconds. When the engine first enters RESET, the
microprocessor initiates a system check to determine if the system,
transformer and engine are operating correctly. This takes approximately 5
seconds during which you will hear the engine’s startup sounds begin. In
order for Proto-Sound® to properly initiate the system check, do not
advance the transform er throttle past 10 volts when you first enter RESET,
wait for the diesel startup sounds to begin and then slowly turn the
transformer throttle to the off position and then back on again to enter the
forward phase. Interrupting the power too quickly may cause the system to
re-enter RESET (signaled by two dings of the bell). Should this happen,
wait longer before interrupting the power to enter the Forward phase.

Vernon

Ay caramba! This loco is going to make me loco!

So much to remember.

Thanks for the advice.

It's nice that this operates conventionally but what would I need to operate this with all the bells and whistles?

Mike

@Norton posted:

The battery should be rechargeable. niCad or NiMH. Don’t use Alkalines.

Pete

Thanks Norton

How about BCR batteries? They seem pricey. Are they worth it?

Mike

@Vernon Barry posted:

I love it, someone put an LED headlight in it but nary thought one of replacing the original 20+ year old white battery???

That's the kind of thing to take someone to task over on maintenance 101.

Vernon

Oops. I was the guy who who replaced the bulb without replacing the battery. This was the first time I opened up one of these locomotives - and I didnt even realize that the white boxy thing wrapped with black tape was a 9V battery. Well, now that I know what it is, I wont do that again.

Thanks

Mike

@Mossback Mike posted:

Vernon

Oops. I was the guy who who replaced the bulb without replacing the battery. This was the first time I opened up one of these locomotives - and I didnt even realize that the white boxy thing wrapped with black tape was a 9V battery. Well, now that I know what it is, I wont do that again.

Thanks

Mike

Mike, sorry, I wasn't intentionally trying to give you a hard time. I realize everyone knows and learns different things and you honestly did not know and this is your first MTH engine.

I say things to bring a sense of urgency and importance. As others pointed out- running, even just testing an MTH loco that is new to you (meaning you have no idea the status or previous maintenance or age of) can scramble or cause problems with an old battery.

I've been joking with friends and club members about giving them practical tests but it needs to be a real thing- flashcards or posters for people to identify what make and model of electronics in a given loco.

I bought this yesterday at a Greenberg's Train Show in Wilmington MA - just outside of Boston. The guy that sold it told me it was part of a vast collection of trains he acquired from an estate sale. He cautioned me that the last time he ran it was about 6 months ago. I got this MTH Santa Fe F3 A-B-A for $140. It seemed like a good deal. It's very clean - hardly used it all.

@Mossback Mike posted:

Vernon

Ay caramba! This loco is going to make me loco!

So much to remember.

Thanks for the advice.

It's nice that this operates conventionally but what would I need to operate this with all the bells and whistles?

Mike

#1 a good battery

#2 simple bell and whistle buttons added to your existing transformer. Example the DIY version or K-line also made one that might work well.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...7#182184738259874377

@Mossback Mike posted:

I bought this yesterday at a Greenberg's Train Show in Wilmington MA - just outside of Boston. The guy that sold it told me it was part of a vast collection of trains he acquired from an estate sale. He cautioned me that the last time he ran it was about 6 months ago. I got this MTH Santa Fe F3 A-B-A for $140. It seemed like a good deal. It's very clean - hardly used it all.

It's a good price and a good deal, but again, an engine of this age and lack of someone previously replacing that battery, as well as lack of experience with PS1 put you at risk for scrambling or locking out the engine.

It's still a good value, just to take care of it and operate it, requires following the rules of PS1.

#1 only operate or test with a known good battery. Again, don't even apply power to one of these unless you know you have a good functioning battery or BCR, and it's recommended you inspect the day you get the engine and put a label on the bottom and know what is in it and when last inspected.

#2 be patient- you apply power slowly, and wait. It has to go through the startup sequence. If you treat it like a postwar and just slam the power on and then drop power expecting it to run- you cause problems.

#3 MTH PS1 really likes clean sine wave pure power. A 1033 is a good choice for a power source. It's later electronic chopping power supplies like a CW80 or others that could be problematic.

#4 RTFM- no not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying it has valuable tips and instructions. edit, that link again https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/30dl16171i.pdf

@MELGAR posted:

It is an MTH Railking Santa Fe F3 AA Diesel Engine Set #16/#17 with Proto Sound (1) from 1998 - product number 30-2131-1.

Do not apply power to it until you install a new 9-volt battery or a BCR.

MELGAR

MELGAR

Thanks. I found these operating instructions at the MTH website.

Mike