Help wiring MTH Crossing Signal with Z-Stuff Block Signal

Can you measure the voltage on blk and wht when it is trying to drive the speaker. It sounds like it is unable to handle the additional load...could be dropping intermittently while the bell is trying to bong.

Are you using the sound unit that came with the signals or are you using a speaker ?

Have you tried all the blacks to common and all the reds to red? Does everything function correctly?

Been a while since we monkeyed with one. Is the white a normally open common?

From the DZ-1011 instruction sheet

I don't know what qualifies as "low current" but perhaps the speaker module is not low-current?   Also, it suggests using a diode when hooking up a lamp.   I realize a speaker module is not a lamp, but there may be a clue in this.

It looks like the sound unit works simply by applying 14 vac.  It must contain a sound chip.  Try connecting 14 vac directly to the sound unit as shown in this MTH instruction just to see if it works: https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/30as17691i.pdf

shorling posted:

...Try connecting 14 vac directly to the sound unit as shown in this MTH instruction just to see if it works: https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/30as17691i.pdf

 

The OP tried this and it apparently works fine:

"When I connect the speaker to the Red/Black it works great. Of course I can't leave it like that or it would never turn off.   When I connect it to the Red/White then I get Click Click Click."

STAN2004

You need the   DZ- 1008 relay module.  The DZ-1011 block signal cannot directly drive the gates and sound module.  See the DZ-1011 instructions:

http://www.z-stuff.net/instruc...ck%20Signals_ins.pdf

"The DZ-1011s can be used to operate other accessories by using them to drive a DZ-1008 Relay Module. The connections to drive an MTH crossing gate are shown in FIGURE 6."

Hope that helps

Tom R

Tom R posted:

 

... The DZ-1011 block signal cannot directly drive the gates and sound module.

Understood.  But, the DZ-1008 relay is $18 or so.  So this being an Electrical Forum, does anyone know the output specifications of the DZ-1011?  It can apparently DIRECTLY drive a 2-3 Watt lamp bulb as shown in their diagram if you add a 5 cent diode.  A typical sound module probably draws about that much power (i.e., a few Watts).  

I understand the plug-n-play benefit of using the DZ-1008 relay...but it sure seems like there could be a less expensive solution if more information was made available.  

I had similar problems and used a DZ-1008.

If you didn't want the convenience of the DZ-1008, you could try to 'roll your own' by using a transistor to drive a DC relay. I don't know what the DZ-1011 output looks like; you might have to rectify and smooth the input to the transistor.

Stan and Tom R are correct. I've always used the Z-Stuff relay module with my IR detectors.

So I'm not an electrical genius.  I know typically red goes to red and black goes to black... sometimes white or yellow.

The DZ-1011's seem to serve a purpose (Other than look pretty) of turning something on and off.  It turns on the lights of the MTH crossing signal perfectly when a train comes and can turn them off after the train goes by.   So why can't it turn on and off the MTH sound module (speaker)?

I disconnected the lights and only hooked up the sound module speaker all by itself.  Still no luck.  I saw in the instructions you folks provided that a 1008 relay is needed.  Since I honestly don't know the function on a relay, I can't understand why it's needed.  It seems like it's used to turn something on or off.  But isn't that what the DZ-1011 does with the lights?

The simpleton in me says the "block" the outside rail next to each DZ-1011 and connect the speaker to the center rail and the blocked 3rd rail and call it a day.

But isn't that why we buy all this neat electronic stuff, so we don't have to hack up rail?

Frustrated.

Ron

Ron045 posted:

So I'm not an electrical genius.  I know typically red goes to red and black goes to black... sometimes white or yellow.

The DZ-1011's seem to serve a purpose (Other than look pretty) of turning something on and off.  It turns on the lights of the MTH crossing signal perfectly when a train comes and can turn them off after the train goes by.   So why can't it turn on and off the MTH sound module (speaker)?

I disconnected the lights and only hooked up the sound module speaker all by itself.  Still no luck.  I saw in the instructions you folks provided that a 1008 relay is needed.  Since I honestly don't know the function on a relay, I can't understand why it's needed.  It seems like it's used to turn something on or off.  But isn't that what the DZ-1011 does with the lights?

The simpleton in me says the "block" the outside rail next to each DZ-1011 and connect the speaker to the center rail and the blocked 3rd rail and call it a day.

But isn't that why we buy all this neat electronic stuff, so we don't have to hack up rail?

Frustrated.

Ron

 

 

I'd try the sound unit on a spare piece of track before hacking up your rail.  You want to make sure the electrical noise generated by the "wheel contact" doesn't interfere with the sound unit operation.

Ron,

It seems that the output from the DZ-1011 does not drive enough amperage to power the speaker module (although that is not a certainty). The output is what you might call "signal level" rather than "power level". Since you are able to make the sound module work by connecting the red and black wires (AC power and ground: 14 vac), this is the "power level" connection that you need to use. But, as you said, you can't make that connection directly because the bell sound would never stop.

Instead, what you want to do is take the white wire (the output from the DZ-1011) and use that "signal level" to drive a relay. The relay can then switch the "power level" to the sound module. The DZ-1008 would certainly work to make this happen and the Z-Stuff website has numerous wiring diagrams showing that type of setup.

What Stan wants to recommend is a cheaper solution using some off-the-shelf relay modules that are widely available from online ordering sites. But the problem is that there does not appear to be much information about what the DZ-1011 output (the white wire) puts out. I believe that you mentioned 14 volts from the red and white wires. Does that change when the state of the IR detector changes?

Consolidated Leo posted:

Ron,

It seems that the output from the DZ-1011 does not drive enough amperage to power the speaker module (although that is not a certainty). The output is what you might call "signal level" rather than "power level". Since you are able to make the sound module work by connecting the red and black wires (AC power and ground: 14 vac), this is the "power level" connection that you need to use. But, as you said, you can't make that connection directly because the bell sound would never stop.

Instead, what you want to do is take the white wire (the output from the DZ-1011) and use that "signal level" to drive a relay. The relay can then switch the "power level" to the sound module. The DZ-1008 would certainly work to make this happen and the Z-Stuff website has numerous wiring diagrams showing that type of setup.

What Stan wants to recommend is a cheaper solution using some off-the-shelf relay modules that are widely available from online ordering sites. But the problem is that there does not appear to be much information about what the DZ-1011 output (the white wire) puts out. I believe that you mentioned 14 volts from the red and white wires. Does that change when the state of the IR detector changes?

Thanks Consolidated Leo, 

If I recall, the volts remained nearly the same when the IR detected a train or the block was empty.  It's an analog needle, so it may have been of a smidge.  Thanks for the tips.

So prior to these MTH Crossing signals, I had the ZStuff Crossing Gates with Bell and they used to work with these DZ-1011's.  Can I assume the ZStuff 1010 Crossing Gate set with bell had this relay built in?

After a short time they started malfunctioning.  ZStuff fixed them for free, but in no time they went bad again and would misbehave horribly.  That is what prompted me to try the MTH set.

Ron

Ron,

Thanks for the response. That seems odd. I would expect some sort of change in voltage from the DZ-1011 but that's not what you're seeing. They do mention that the white wire may also be used as an input to tie the lights from the dwarf signal together. That's part of the mystery here. I'm not sure how they do that.

You realize of course that MTH and Z-Stuff do not guarentee that their products are interchangeable. It's an old problem. I've seen that attempts have been made to list IR detectors from MTH, Z-Stuff, Lionel, and others with compatible equipment (signals, gates, etc) but I was unable to find it online. Apparently, after a while, people end up with a variety of products from different vendors and encounter the kind of problems that you're having with this situation.

At this point, as I see it, you have a couple of options:

1. Buy an MTH compatible IR detector to run your MTH signal w/Bell sound
2. Buy the Z-Stuff 1008 Relay module to hook up "power" for the sound unit
3. Talk to Z-Stuff about what you're trying to do
4. Go without the sound and settle for the flashers
5. Wait for someone smarter than me to help you through this forum (Stan)

I hope you don't let these little annoyances get to you. It's Christmas you know! You could put a switch on your bell unit and let the kids play with it. Push the button, the bell rings. Just a thought.

Good luck!

Ron, 

Seems like you could trigger the lights and sound off an isolated rail as you suggested also.

Ron:

Below is a schematic for an MTH crossing gate. It is not your crossing signal but close. I am assuming the 1011 does not put out enough current to drive the speaker. I think that is what the 1008 is for. Best to email Dennis Zander of Z-Stuff and ask him if a wiring diagram is available.

My guess - disregard the  blue, white, and yellow wires (not on your signal). Connect the black wires from the signal and speaker to NO of the 1008 (white wire) and see what happens.

Joe

Model Structures posted:

Ron:

Below is a schematic for an MTH crossing gate. It is not your crossing signal but close. I am assuming the 1011 does not put out enough current to drive the speaker. I think that is what the 1008 is for. Best to email Dennis Zander of Z-Stuff and ask him if a wiring diagram is available.

My guess - disregard the  blue, white, and yellow wires (not on your signal). Connect the black wires from the signal and speaker to NO of the 1008 (white wire) and see what happens.

Joe

Wiring diagram shown works with MTH Crossing gates, that have a down and up position.   Blue White, Yellow, Red and Black wires are part of this crossing gate.  Even at that the Block signal detector will not operate a gate as shown in the diagram.  Red and Green are the input wires to the 1008 relay that correspond to Red and Green on DZ 1000 switch motors. Black would be a required common for the 1008 latching relay.