How exactly do these pre-orders work?

The main thing to remember is to not do a preorder with a dealer that requires a deposit.  There are many reputable dealers here on the forum who do not require a deposit.  Putting a deposit down just makes it too complicated if the item gets cancelled, and even worse, heaven forbid - the dealer goes out of business.

The normal procedure is...  1) place order, 2) wait, 3) wait some more, 4a) a year or two after ordering, after you've forgotten about it, the item might be delivered; if so, pay for it and it arrives at your door, hopefully in one piece, or 4b) the item gets cancelled and you're disappointed.

Not knowing when to expect it is part of the fun, especially these days. 

This is not a knock on Lionel - the process is the same for all of the manufacturers.

@Mallard4468 posted:

The normal procedure is...  1) place order, 2) wait, 3) wait some more, 4a) a year or two after ordering, after you've forgotten about it, the item might be delivered; if so, pay for it and it arrives at your door, hopefully in one piece, or 4b) the item gets cancelled and you're disappointed.

Mallard summed it up pretty well.

I have one order on preorder that it fully paid for already, and has been for months. Never had that happen before, so it will be interesting to see how it all shakes out if/when the item is delivered. It was paid for with AMEX, so I am not worried about it one way or another. American Express (Gold Card) has always been very good about handling things for me when there is a problem.

You can check Lionel's shipping schedule here:

210622.pdf (lionel-nascar.biz)

Lionel's shipping schedule not accurate but its closer than it used to be S1's were just delivered in the PRR versions while the American RR version is not due to Oct according to Charles Ro's sight its due in Oct and was scheduled for July. So don't take it to heart.

@John m 43 posted:

Hello everyone,

I have never before pre-ordered anything new from Lionel and am unsure how it works. I know Lionel (and other companies) will do pre-orders so they can determine whether they will actually make a product or not, and it can take a couple months for things to be delivered, but that is all i know.

I ordered one of the Amtrak Genesis Locomotives from this year's volume II catalog, but I don't know when to expect it or anything like that, having not heard from Lionel when I ordered it.

I also figure this post will be useful for future beginners to the pre-order process.

I don't preorder directly from Lionel as they usually charge full retail prices, where as a dealer will have a slight discount from retail to save some money.  Some dealers do not require a deposit or some just a small deposit.  Varies by dealer, but if you create a relationship with a dealer and they know you are a consistent customer they won't charge a deposit (at least mine does not).  Length of time can vary greatly depending on item.  On average I usually expect about a year for Legacy engines, but sometimes can be shorter or longer.  The times have actually gotten better in the last 5 years, but with the pandemic you never know anymore.

If you are worried about losing a modest pre-order deposit, you may be in the wrong hobby.

@wb47 posted:

If you are worried about losing a modest pre-order deposit, you may be in the wrong hobby.

If you aren’t worried about losing money I wouldn’t want you managing my bank account!

@RickO posted:

If you have to put down a deposit, you may be buying from the wrong dealer.

I can go either way with a deposit.  After helping out at my LHS I saw more than a few times my dealer get stuck with a pre-order.  For some of the bigger guys that may not be a big deal but for some smaller places getting stuck with a more specialized road name that isn't going to sell can be a PITA. 

Like I said I see both sides but the bottom line is if you pre order then make sure you meet your commitments as should the dealer.

Some hobby shops neither ask for a deposit 'up front' nor debit your credit card until they receive the product and are ready to ship it to the customer.  (All the info they need such as name, cc # and expiry date, shipping address etc.) has already been obtained at the pre-order stage)

When you pre order from 3rd Rail there is never a deposit required until just prior to the models shipping.  Even then, Scott will work with customers if they need to do a short layaway. 

Don't prepay, Don't expect the item to arrive on schedule. And don't cancel your preorder it's not the dealers fault if the item is not as cataloged.

@PH1975 posted:

Some hobby shops neither ask for a deposit 'up front' nor debit your credit card until they receive the product and are ready to ship it to the customer.  (All the info they need such as name, cc # and expiry date, shipping address etc.) has already been obtained at the pre-order stage)

Exactly.

Read the c h u n k  of words below for my somewhat-related ramble that wanders a bit beyond the thread...

In my experience, low volume dealers are those who tend to require a deposit. The high volume guys like Charles Ro Supply Co. (CRSC) operate in a manner that's much more pleasurable (if parting with your cash for something that's a "want" rather than a "need" is pleasant). This holds true when orders are made to gain a Lionel product. For me, (and everyone else) CRSC has authorized a return label, substituted a new replacement, and returned my order in almost less time than I've been "on hold" with Lionel. OK, kidding aside, Lionel has always come through (for me)-- at least before the next seasonal change is noticed in the atmosphere. When pre-ordering from Golden Gate Depot-- the process is different-- a lot different. (No explanation to be made here.)

I feel that the BIG deal about pre-orders is the uncertain nature of what the product will actually "be" when delivered. If the engine you're ordering has already been manufactured in the past and have seen it (or own one) from its previous run (without the additional upgrades in the new version)-- you'll be aware of what to expect in the new delivery. Otherwise, paint color, finish, road name front face and size, details, and coupler design can be unknowns just to name a few. In contrast, those who are preordering a Strasburg No. 90 Locomotive from Lionel that have viewed the brief promo video within the online catalog and have also watched the hour+ "Special" on YouTube will know what to expect.

I don't preorder unless the item is a Special Run (limited to a few pieces) made by a LHS owner partnering with Lionel that's not available anywhere else-- including Lionel. The important part for me is that the item will be in harmony with the era and Railroad I model. While reviewing an awaited new catalog and not discovering a particular road name offered on let's say a Ten Wheeler, but a Model Railroad Type Person may settle on getting a 4-6-0 that has an attractive appearance. Not me-- unless I know an accurate set of decals are available and I'm up for re-painting.

Furthermore, I am v e r y, very far from being like some of my friends who do not include anything on their layout unless it was rostered in the specific year they model (including passenger Train consists and the number of hoppers overall that served branch line mines). They wouldn't think twice about removing marker lights on a locomotive to be replaced with a prototypical brass casting mounted in the correct place.

Do whatever makes your model Train hobby fun for you-- including preordering.

I didn't realize you can preorder without some sort of deposit required. I ordered a legacy camelback from the 2021 vol 1 catalog. Every place I saw had some sort of deposit. Guess I missed that. Some were only 5 or 10 percent though. I ordered from Marios Trains which required a larger deposit than others of $100 but I did that because they gave me more off retail then anyone else plus an extra little bit because I preordered. Also they guarantee free shipping at the time of arrival and they do not charge tax. Others said shipping would be determined at the time of arrival. The delivery date is this month as of now but after reading this post I don't expect to see it that soon but no worries.

Brad

@B rad's post has some interesting considerations regarding the economics of a preorder price.  I've never seen a preorder price vary by more than about $10-20 between various dealers.  Not sure that I'd hand over $100 to anyone for vaporware, but I hope that it works out as advertised - I've bought from Mario's (no preorders though) and had good luck.  (Most dealers don't collect sales tax from out-of-state buyers, but remember that legally we're required to pay our state's sales tax anyway.  IMO, this tilts the playing field against local shops, but that's a discussion for another time and place.)

Off the top of my head, I can think of at least 3 reputable major dealers that don't require a deposit - I'm always getting their emails.

While I understand the desire to wait until you can actually see an item before deciding to buy, the unfortunate reality is that very few dealers overbuy the BTO items - at $1-2k each, it's understandable - so there's a decent chance that one will have to pay more to wait, assuming that a copy can be found.  OTOH, there are always a few folks who renege on preorders (or die waiting), so there will be a few to be had.

Keep in mind that even the largest dealers are really small businesses, so it's a (expletive) move to not honor a preorder.

1. Most dealers set their prices at a discount below the manufacturer's MSRP, so it typically costs less to order from a dealer than directly from the manufacturer.

2. In addition, many dealers offer an additional "early buy" discount if you place a pre-order for a BTO item, but the additional discount only lasts for a relatively short period of time. So, if you've definitely made the decision to pre-order something, make sure you get the pre-order in before the "early buy" discount expires.

I try not to revive old threads, but this covered one of my questions.  I've never pre-ordered anything before, I didn't even know that was a thing.  I was under the old impression that dealers bought some inventory from Lionel and then sold it.  I guess there aren't enough people buying this stuff to keep that business model afloat.

One related question.  So right now the 2023 book is out, but can I still place orders from older books?  My guess would be a no.

@Allan Miller posted:

Mallard summed it up pretty well.

I have one order on preorder that it fully paid for already, and has been for months. Never had that happen before, so it will be interesting to see how it all shakes out if/when the item is delivered. It was paid for with AMEX, so I am not worried about it one way or another. American Express (Gold Card) has always been very good about handling things for me when there is a problem.

Allen, would they claw back your money if after say 14 months and the hobby shop goes under?

Had an issue with some engine parts many years back where the shop kept telling us the item hadn't been shipped yet for a few months. We had called the manufacturer to be sure they had 1 in stock as you were required to buy from a dealer because they didn't sell direct before we paid for it. Eventually after repeatedly calling the manufacturer (and eventually getting ahold of someone who felt sorry for us) we discovered their "authorized dealer" was on credit hold for non payment. They agreed to sell it direct due to this situation but IIRC we didn't get our money back from the store because the credit card company said it was too many months. Fortunately we've only had the same experience with one train store.

@texgeekboy posted:

I try not to revive old threads, but this covered one of my questions.  I've never pre-ordered anything before, I didn't even know that was a thing.  I was under the old impression that dealers bought some inventory from Lionel and then sold it.  I guess there aren't enough people buying this stuff to keep that business model afloat.

One related question.  So right now the 2023 book is out, but can I still place orders from older books?  My guess would be a no.

Ordering from older catalogs has likely closed, but dealers may still have what you are looking for. A word of caution on that: read the warranty document for what you want to buy very carefully before you buy it. MTH's warranty now states that the warranty starts the date of manufacture, not the date of original purchase from an authorized dealer.

I would never put down a deposit or even provide credit / debit card information for a pre-order item; it's too risky in my opinion.

@texgeekboy posted:

One related question.  So right now the 2023 book is out, but can I still place orders from older books?  My guess would be a no.

I would suspect depending on what you want, that many dealers ordered xtra of the more popular items.  I would certainly call your shop and/or others so your name gets on that extra piece.

@texgeekboy posted:

I try not to revive old threads, but this covered one of my questions.  I've never pre-ordered anything before, I didn't even know that was a thing.  I was under the old impression that dealers bought some inventory from Lionel and then sold it.  I guess there aren't enough people buying this stuff to keep that business model afloat.

One related question.  So right now the 2023 book is out, but can I still place orders from older books?  My guess would be a no.

Sometimes you can. The larger dealers will usually order extra of some items. They may also keep the discounted pricing on them too. I just “pre-ordered” something from one of the 2022 catalogs.

I would contact, or check their website, to see if you can still get the items.  If you don't ask, the answer is no.

BTW, here's Lionel's shipping schedule.  If you plan on accessing it, you might want to blow the dust off of it first.

@B rad posted:

I didn't realize you can preorder without some sort of deposit required. I ordered a legacy camelback from the 2021 vol 1 catalog. Every place I saw had some sort of deposit. Guess I missed that. Some were only 5 or 10 percent though. I ordered from Marios Trains which required a larger deposit than others of $100 but I did that because they gave me more off retail then anyone else plus an extra little bit because I preordered. Also they guarantee free shipping at the time of arrival and they do not charge tax. Others said shipping would be determined at the time of arrival. The delivery date is this month as of now but after reading this post I don't expect to see it that soon but no worries.

Brad

Just curious - did this preorder work out well for you? 

@texgeekboy posted:

I try not to revive old threads, but this covered one of my questions. ...

Good for you for good use of the search function and reviving this thread - it's so much better than having multiple threads about the same topic.  Most, if not all, of the "old" information is still relevant, and reviving it will help people when they search for preorder info in the future.

@Mallard4468 posted:

Just curious - did this preorder work out well for you?

Absolutely and I have another preorder with them now. Joe and Pauline are great to deal with.

Brad