I want to move up to command and control but am very scared

Simplest thing to do is buy a used Powermaster and Cab-1. These are old technology but usually available on the used market. You will be able to run the conventional engines you already own with remote control by controlling voltage, horn, and bell via the Cab-1.

Next easiest is purchasing a Lionchief, Lionchief Plus, or Lionchief Plus 2.0 equipped locomotive with a dedicated or a universal remote. This is entry-level, true command control because you're controlling the engine, not track voltage (which you preset to typically 18V). Lionchief is very basic where as Plus brings a few more commands, the ones most frequently used with TMCC, DCS, or Legacy. No separate computer to wire to the track. Just put the engine on the track and run it. Easy peasy.

If you prefer trying MTH technology, there's a "lite" way to step into it without going full DCS. I believe it's called DCS Commander. Enables you to control ONE DCS engine remotely and simply.

IMO, these are the least risky and least costly ways to "get your feet wet."

Next least risky/costly would likely be an older TMCC Command Base with Cab-1. Command Bases aren't all that readily available any longer. You can incorporate this option with the ones above, especially the Powermaster. Run TMCC for TMCC engines, run the Powermaster for conventional engines. Very easy, I promise you.

Bill- I started like you, ran post war and MPC stuff for a while. I added a Cab 1L a few years ago and haven't looked back. I also have a remote commander for MTH engines.

As far as reliability don't be to afraid. The issues raised here about older PS 2 5 volt boards is probably the most common failure. Common but not guaranteed, I have a bunch of 5v engines and they run fine.

Lionel TMCC engines are solid as well. Less likely to have problems but again, anythings possible.

If you want to dip your toes in the water, look at Lionchief engines that can be run with just a simple remote or smartphone.

Jump in, the waters fine.

Bob

The original benefit of command control is that you can operate two or more locos anywhere on the layout without worrying about "block" power, power districts, etc.  Just put 18VAC everywhere, and control the individual locos with your hand-held device.  Beginning circa 2001, a "speed control" feature was added to the command electronics, which can force a loco to run at very slow constant speeds.  These would be the benefits of upgrading.

One of the challenges is that right now, much of the hardware from both major brands is sold out.  It was discontinued before replacements could be made available, so hand-held controllers and command bases are selling for big bucks on eBay, etc., perhaps not a good value.  When it comes to locos, higher prices generally get you better detail and more features, like a swinging bell or "smoke" vapor coming from the whistle.  But there are some recent Legacy locos that seemed to have a high incidence of electronic and mechanical issues.  If you're interested in a specific loco you should ask about it, or just search the Forum.

If you want to get something right away, given current market conditions I would personally look for a LionChief Plus (NOT 2.0) Pacific, Hudson, or Mikado.  These were sold from circa 2015-2018 with a "bundled" remote right in the box.  LionChief Plus locos run much better than "regular" LionChief, and I haven't read too many complaints about the drivetrains in the models I mentioned.

I'm not personally a fan of MTH's DCS and I don't recommend it.  Note that it's possible, but not cheap to convert an MTH loco to the Lionel control system.  Frankly, I was never impressed with Lionel's original TMCC either.  Legacy and LionChief Plus are newer and much improved; they are my favored choices.  If you have deep pockets and you're willing to wait until the Lionel BASE-3 is available later this summer, you'll have potentially many more combinations of locos and control methods to choose from.

Unfortunately, electronic failures from all brands are a fact of life.  Installing quick-acting circuit breakers and transient voltage suppressors (TVS) on your layout provides a measure of protection.  However, Lionel and MTH don't use military or NASA-grade hardware, and the AC powered layout environment has its hazards.  Challenges with initial quality control, manufacturing defects, parts availability, etc., will at times require broad shoulders, but when it all comes together it's pretty sweet!  For the future of the hobby, I sincerely hope you experience success when you decide to take the plunge!

Just jump in; you won’t regret it! I recall the day in 2009 when I dusted off the shiny orange TMCC command set box I had bought several years earlier, and said time to give this a try. I hooked up the single wire from the command base to the track and powered it up. I addressed the engine and bingo, it woke up. Rotated the red knob and away she went. It was like magic. I was immediately hooked for life. I wondered why I had waited so long.

I already had several PS-2 engines, so the DCS system followed soon thereafter. Nowadays I run TMCC, Legacy, and DCS, often at the same time. The grandkids all love it and have never known otherwise. For them conventional operation would be something like using a dial telephone.

If you have any TMCC engines, that would be your best and simplest place to start other than Lionchief, as was said above. I don’t have any Lionchief stuff but they seem to work pretty well. Don’t worry too much about failed electronics and problems. Sure it happens, but for the most part this stuff is pretty reliable. I only have a couple of shelf queens that have had a non-repairable failure. And help is readily available right here on OGR!

Rod

To echo Rod's comment- the Cab-1L install was about a simple as it could get. One wire from the base to the track outside rail(s). (Disregard the stuff on the right side).

With the release of the Base 3 finally upon us, you may start to see guys selling off older systems over the next few months (at reasonable prices too). Make note that the Cab-1L remote will work with the new Base 3 so those systems may still command higher prices.

If you do find one on the market, make sure it has the original GROUNDED power supply. TMCC/ Legacy uses the home's ground wiring as an antenna.

Bob

I'll echo the suggestion you start simple and small. Buy a LionChief or other loco (all Lionel locos for the last few years) that will respond to the app and Universal Remote.  Any loco that says Bluetooth meets these requirements. A used LionChief loco (non-Bluetooth) will work with the Universal Remote as well. This is command control, even though Lionel doesn't call it such to avoid competing with Legacy locos.  For $200 for a loco and $50 for the remote (or the free app if you prefer the phone/tablet route for control) you'll get a feel what command control offers. You can then expand to Lionel's older technology if you like (cab-1/TMCC command base/Powermaster for coventional) or the new Base 3 and the cab-1L as examples of this year's technology.

If you prefer newer MTH/Atlas locos, you can explore DCS when the new wi-fi TIU hits the market, but be aware that there is no hardware based remote currently available for this system, and, as noted, it can be a bit quirky compared with TMCC/Legacy/LionChief.

To my mind, a major plus of the LionChief/app/Universal Remote route is that it's the most problem free command system available, and it's relatively inexpensive.  Some of the less expensive LionChief locos may not be quite as robust as the higher end stuff mechanically, and the range may be limited to 15-20 feet, but it's rock solid as a command system within those constraints.

I would get into a simple Cab 1 system now before the Base 3 comes out; the Base 3's expected release date is ??/??/????.

This is because the Cab1 is known.. no one, outside of Lionel, is sure about the reliability of the Base 3.. . . yet!

@AlanRail posted:

I would get into a simple Cab 1 system now before the Base 3 comes out; the Base 3's expected release date is ??/??/????.

This is because the Cab1 is known.. no one, outside of Lionel, is sure about the reliability of the Base 3.. . . yet!

Dave Olsen said they should hit North Carolina the week after the 4th.

Bill, when I first got involved in O gauge it was the late 90's.   I mostly bought MTH and chose their DCS system.   I've had very little problems with the PS2 engines and the TIU.  My TIU an early model, and finally died in 2002.  I would buy a new one if they were still being made.     I am currently waiting for the new WTIU to ship.

Looking back, I wish I bought the Cab 1 first. It would allow me to operated my conventional/post war engines remotely which is fun when doing switcher operations!

Ray

I've been into command control now since 2001, and I am still scared (more like intimidated) by command control, but not of TMCC...it was bullet proof in my experience.

i'm intimidated by command control and have too few brain cells left from my 8 years of college that Legacy is too much a liability and would make me look like a young Gomez

i have used a cab 1l to run a vision big boy at a train show with my club a few times which made me very nervous and i had the thing at slow the whole time and my heart was pounding

i'll stick with lionchief and conventional and i still have accidents

i was running a long consist with my hotwheels GP38 when the train split and plowed into its own caboose. Thanks again to Apples 55 for the cw80 or else it could have been like the movie Atomic Train in a very bad way

lionchief is so simple and robust yet has the sounds to satisfy my needs that i'm good

i'm gonna try and get the ARMY tier 4 engine this year as i want another fantasy engine so wish me luck hoping my godparents say yes

@Bill Barlowe posted:

Then I started polling around on the forum threads for these control system and the locos and electronics and the countless issues. So, now I’m scared.

Just dive in, and put your trepidation aside. It's safe, and won't hurt!

"Everyone's like you,

they started from scratch,

maybe took some sips from a bottle,

but came through it just fine,

smart and good looking

and never needed to go

to the hospital."

I went looking on lionel.com for the statement that there will be a way to connect a Base1 to Base3 and use original Cab1. I can no longer find it. I assume you would also need the SER2 and NOT connect the Base1 to the tracks. That is, you do something on the Cab1, it sends it signal at 26 or 27 MHz I can never remember, the Base1 receives it, and re-transmits on the stud and the DB9. Then from the DB9 (which supposedly does not have true RS232 signal levels), into the SER2, and into the Base3.

I did find this text on trainworld dot com website ( https://www.trainworld.com/lio...10-lionel-base3.html )

LCS SER2 Serial Converter (6-81326) provides Base3 compatibility with:

a.MTH TIU

b.TPC300 or TPC400

c.Older Lionel control modules such as the ASC, AMC, ARC, and BPC

d.Base1/Cab1

@RayKay posted:

Bill, when I first got involved in O gauge it was the late 90's.   I mostly bought MTH and chose their DCS system.   I've had very little problems with the PS2 engines and the TIU.  My TIU an early model, and finally died in 2002.  I would buy a new one if they were still being made.     I am currently waiting for the new WTIU to ship.

Looking back, I wish I bought the Cab 1 first. It would allow me to operated my conventional/post war engines remotely which is fun when doing switcher operations!

Ray

Well, Cab-1 plus the Track Power Controller for your postwar trains. The Cab-1/Base-1 setup on its own won't run conventional locos. You need the TPC to add remote voltage control for your conventional units.

DCS has this ability built-in to the TIU

---PCJ

I echo the suggestions about TMCC / Cab1 above.  If you don't mind using a phone or tablet as your throttle, you might want to start with the Base 3.

Tips that apply to running any modern equipment, whether in conventional or command mode...

1) Do not run modern engines with a postwar transformer (ZW, KW, 1033, etc.) - get a modern ZW-L, Z4000, Z1000, etc.  Older transformers have slow circuit breakers and can cause problems with electronics even when running conventional.  

2)  Search the forum for threads regarding the use of TVS diodes and fast-acting circuit breakers.  Cheap and easy-to-use insurance against voltage spikes and short circuits that can fry an engine's electronics.

@Mallard4468 posted:

I echo the suggestions about TMCC / Cab1 above.  If you don't mind using a phone or tablet as your throttle, you might want to start with the Base 3.

Tips that apply to running any modern equipment, whether in conventional or command mode...

1) Do not run modern engines with a postwar transformer (ZW, KW, 1033, etc.) - get a modern ZW-L, Z4000, Z1000, etc.  Older transformers have slow circuit breakers and can cause problems with electronics even when running conventional. 

2)  Search the forum for threads regarding the use of TVS diodes and fast-acting circuit breakers.  Cheap and easy-to-use insurance against voltage spikes and short circuits that can fry an engine's electronics.

Agreed. Didn't want to divert the OP's thread but an important aspect of running modern locos.

I use a KW but added breakers and TVS when I upgraded to command control.

@RSJB18 posted:

Agreed. Didn't want to divert the OP's thread but an important aspect of running modern locos.

I use a KW but added breakers and TVS when I upgraded to command control.

Yeah, it's a rabbit hole, but there's a natural tendency to think "a transformer is a transformer".  I learned my lesson the hard way.

And you're correct - a postwar transformer can be used with the proper precautions.  But you're a professional...

Bill, I love your thread title!  Though I was trained in electronics and retired after 43 years in the field, I don't like burning up my stuff because it burns a hole in my pocket.  By telling us you learned to repair the postwar engines, you have more than enough mechanical and electrical aptitude to take the necessary precautions to safely run whatever system you choose.  Everyone has given good answers, since there are many avenues you can take.  Maybe too many choices for my liking. 

I bought an HO train when I was about 12 and ran two rail DC trains with no command control until I finally realized I needed larger trains.  It was 12 years ago that I joined the Forum and bought an MTH engine.  I started out with DCS because that is what the local (sort of local) dealer sold.  There was a point where I was frustrated with the DCS system not finding engines, then everything fell into place.  I now have a TMCC base and remote coupled to the DCS TIU and run a couple TMCC and one Legacy engines from my DCS remote.  I was going to buy the DCS WTIU as someone mentioned, but since I have a spare TIU, decided to buy the WiFi add on package and save a couple hundred dollars.  A forum member in a town about 40 miles east of me just got his and has been raving about it.  I am starting to have a lot of trouble using the DCS remote due to my arthritis, and am going to try using the smart phone or tablet to control.  While I have gotten used to the MTH system, I do like the speed control knob on the Lionel remotes.

The best choice you made was joining this forum.  You will find lots of folks here to help you through whatever questions you have.

I also highly recommend starting out with command control by running Lionchief Plus using the dedicated remote or Lionchief Plus 2.0 using the Universal Remote. No need for additional wiring and you get the basic command control features that are so much fun. I believe this is the best way to start out with command control.

Several years ago, I acquired the DCS Remote system with TIU (which was late in the game) and, with advice from my friends including Forum friends and the Boscowitz bible on DCS, I did the necessary wiring to install the DCS remote system on my layout.  I love it.

I chose DCS over Legacy or TMCC because I had more MTH PS 2 and 3 locomotives than Legacy and TMCC, and otherwise prefer MTH over Lionel. However, I’m hesitant to recommend DCS because I understand that the DCS remote system with TIU is no longer made, and very expensive to get on the used market.

i have a couple of Legacy locomotives and am content running them using the Lionchief Universal Remote.

Arnold

A vote for Lionchief....these 3 locos are running with the new Base3 app.

I'd give Lionchief serious consideration at the moment.

The app will run any bluetooth equipped engine.

Bob

Thank you all, so much, for sharing your knowledge and wisdom. I am privileged to be a member of this forum and blessed to have found the world’s greatest hobby.
I’m going to start with the lionchief architecture and locos. Since I have older transformers, I’m going to invest in a newer one and also learn how to implement circuit breakers and TVS diodes.
Thanks again to all and remember, OGR Rocks!

This thread is great. I have mostly conventional locomotives but want to use a hand-held controller. I don't care much for sound systems so whistle/bell control is sufficient (heck, most of my engines don't even have that!).

A newcomer to our hobby has a lot of choices with respect to control systems. There are five track based power/signal systems and about ten wireless systems currently available. There is also the decision about hand held controller versus smart device app. The plus side is there is a system for everyone but the negative is deciding which one to use.

Some of the choice is based on where you are now, and where you see yourself going.  Personally, I'm a electronics nut, and command control seemed natural.  I started with the original TMCC setup, then upgraded to the Legacy #990, and finally added the TMCC DCS system.  I started with all postwar stuff, then semi-scale command, and now most anything I acquire is either scale or fantasy stuff.

I personally really want a dedicated remote and am not a big fan of running my trains with my phone, so the trend away from the dedicated remote doesn't make me all that happy.

Thanks for the thoughts gunrunnerjohn. I’ve learned a ton from your posts and the top thing I’ve learned is that I have tons more to learn when it comes to electronics. I get great pieces of info from the posts from you and others of the OGR brain trust. However, maybe from my own impatience, I’m having trouble piecing together how all the command and control stuff comes together and how I could start with one basic system and build the complete DCS onto it. Do you or anyone reading this thread know of a book or publication that would help?

Thanks again. OGR Rocks!

I'm a dedicated ZW, layout in blocks guy still, with a lot of pre and postwar non-electronic locos, but I did splurge on a used Trainmaster found here on OGR, to access some of the extra functions in a GP9 lashup set I had acquired, from the same era. I found I could set the track voltage at a level where my conventional engines were running at a fairly normal pace, and there was enough track volts that I could also run the GP9's with the Trainmaster, either ahead of or behind a conventional loco pulling freight cars.  I'm not saying I am convinced I love it, I have electronicaphobia, fear of the electronics failing and the parts are unobtanium, plus they never give you a set of schematics so I can trouble shoot their gadgets, but it is fun to have both locos running and not have to switch blocks to keep up.

@Bill Barlowe posted:

Thanks for the thoughts gunrunnerjohn. I’ve learned a ton from your posts and the top thing I’ve learned is that I have tons more to learn when it comes to electronics. I get great pieces of info from the posts from you and others of the OGR brain trust. However, maybe from my own impatience, I’m having trouble piecing together how all the command and control stuff comes together and how I could start with one basic system and build the complete DCS onto it. Do you or anyone reading this thread know of a book or publication that would help?

Thanks again. OGR Rocks!

Bill- surprised this hasn't been brought up yet so here goes.......

One of the biggest issues with O gauge, AC powered trains, is a lack of standardization. The HO and N scales got it right from the start and all use the same protocol (DCC) for running trains. O Gauge unfortunately is vendor driven (MTH- DCS, Lionel TMCC/Legacy), which leads to questions from folks like yourself.

If you want to get in the weeds- Barry Broskowits' books on DCS are the bible on anything and everything about running MTH trains with their system (including running Lionel TMCC with DCS).
I don't think a comparable publication exists for Lionel but I could be wrong.

At the present time there is no new DCS hardware available, not sure when there will be either.
Since Lionel is releasing the Base 3 and Cab 3 app, I'd look seriously at Lionel to start. As I've mentioned, any
Lionchief/bluetooth, or Legacy w/bluetooth engine can be run with the Cab 3 app. I think it would be the best way for you to familiarize yourself with command control. I'm not a huge fan of the phone/tablet use either but it's growing on me day by day. I still like the physical remote because I can feel my way around the buttons without having to look at it.

So I started digging this rabbit hole......talk amongst yourselves.........

Bob

Bill, I had the same problem as you describe.  So many different control systems to pick from.  I can’t think of a publication or video that compares and contrasts the different systems.  I will say this again about MTH DCS.  You have the capability of adding a cable from a TMCC base and then run both MTH and Lionel TMCC and Legacy engines from the MTH remote or app.  Of course you can use both The MTH and Lionel remote and app together, but that’s unwieldy.  You don’t get the advanced features of Legacy doing it that way, but I only want sound and the ability to run multiple engines on the same tracks.

Command-Control is the best thing ever! I've had Lionel's Legacy System since late 2019, and it's so great. I also have the Base3 on order. I run my entire 11X15 foot layout that I'm working on with a single Legacy Cab2 Remote. I have 2 loops of track right now, and each is independently powered from its own Lionel 180W Powerhouse Brick and Legacy Powermaster. I love the LPMs because I get all the simplicity of running a conventional loco (a train set 4-4-2 steam loco with some basic sounds) combined with the walk-around advantages of command-control. Plus, I can run my 2 command-equipped locomotives (a Lionel BNSF GP35 and an ATSF B40-8W) too. My setup is a bit more complex, as I also have 6 of Lionel's Fastrack Command-Controlled O72 switches on my layout, and I plan to add their LCS when the Base3 arrives. I also plan to add MTH's DCS WTIU to my layout soon.

Command-Control isn't really that scary. Before I got my Legacy System, I watched Youtube videos from Eric Siegel (Eric's Trains) and others. Everything was easy to set up and it all works great.

Since you are thinking about adding command-control to your layout, I'd suggest purchasing the following items to get started:

-Lionel Base3 or Base-1L Command Base

-Cab-1L Remote (works with both bases mentioned above)

-Universal Remote, free Lionchief Bluetooth App, or free Cab3 App (the best idea, since w/ the Base3, it will run any Lionel loco)

-Legacy 180W Powermaster (provides circuit protection and conventional control of your Williams/PW Lionel locos)

-PM Adapter Cable to attach your transformer to the LPM

-A locomotive (Legacy, TMCC, LC+2.0; Lionel has a good selection of locomotives that will run on any size curves): LC+2.0 locos are less expensive than Legacy, and they have TMCC and Bluetooth control.

-Other options for a CC layout (depends on how complex you want to get with CC):

-Lionel SC-2 controller (for controlling switches and/or accessories with CC)

-Lionel LCS ASC2 (also for accessories and switches)

-LCS BPC2 (for track block control w/ CC)

Gunrunner John, if anyone could design and build their own personal remote to use on their layout, I'm guessing you're one of the top guys that could do it.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet that after the Base 3 is delivered and teething pains resolved, Lionel will come out with a version of the Universal Remote that directly addresses the Base 3, some version of the cab-1 reborn.  A junior cab-1L if you will.  Or, if there is enough demand, a hardware based Cab3 app.  I think the latter is less likely than a new Universal Remote.  This will be particularly attractive if the cab-1L no longer can be profitably offered down the road.

@Landsteiner posted:

If I were a betting man, I'd bet that after the Base 3 is delivered and teething pains resolved, Lionel will come out with a version of the Universal Remote that directly addresses the Base 3, some version of the cab-1 reborn.  A junior cab-1L if you will.  Or, if there is enough demand, a hardware based Cab3 app.  I think the latter is less likely than a new Universal Remote.  This will be particularly attractive if the cab-1L no longer can be profitably offered down the road.

I'd put my $$$$ on an update for the UM that will communicate with the Base 3.....

@Dylan the Train Man, that was a huge help. Great breakdown of the parts and pieces to assemble. Basically, thanks for the shopping list! OGR Rocks!

I'd recommend starting simple and adding pieces as you need them.

@RSJB18, the book has been ordered and is on the way. Big thanks! OGR Rocks!

Agreed John. Just very excited. Every day is like Christmas with this hobby!

@Bill Barlowe posted:

Hello. I started with the world’s greatest hobby a little less than two years ago with four crates of post war Lionel locos, cars, and many old but cool accessories. I learned how to refurbish and repair and have a nice collection of post war and Williams running on a single loop on an 11’ x 6’ modular layout.
Now I’d like to graduate to more complex (fun) stuff. I’ve found some good high level articles on basics of TMCC and DCS, and I was excited. Then I started polling around on the forum threads for these control system and the locos and electronics and the countless issues. So, now I’m scared. I think I should start with tmcc II to get my feet wet for a couple of years. However, is there a safe way to get going without electronics burning out and not finding replacement parts?
I know the question is sloppy so a few clarifying questions to hopefully help get some info shared.

- is there a Lionel loco model that is more stable than others for a newbie to get experience?

- are there any tips or mistakes to avoid until I can get my skills up to speed?

- is there any reason not to start with TMCC II

Thanks in advance. OGR Rocks!

Bill

I’ll address some of your concerns about powering your layout  

Adding Lionel Command is easy.  It requires no special track wiring pattern so it’s a snap to get started.

There are a lot of opinions about powering a command layout.  

Many long-time hobbyists have power supplies and transformers that are older for esthetic reasons.  

Minor modifications to older transformers to reduce the possibility of damage modern electronics is relatively simple.  

If you plan to buy new or recently manufactured locomotives and you are not tied too or currently own a power source that produces at least 18v AC with a capacity of at least180 watts then, I suggest you invest in a Lionel 180 watt power brick or two.  I have a smallish Two main line layout and have found one 180 watt brick sufficient to operate two trains simultaneously.  (I use a Lionel GW-180 which includes a throttle.)  

When I started my layout I had a CW-80 from a set from 2005.  I quickly learned it wasn’t good enough to fill my needs.  I kept it and use it to power accessories and lights.  

Good info @RixTrack. I have that same era cw-80. I’ll look at the GW-180. OGR Rocks!

i'll eat my previous comment IF the cab 3 app is easy for my smooth brain to comprehend especially if i ever get a chance to go scale legacy

the app does look easier than a cab1l

i just want to build the Fenix Pacific at full tilt and i am sick of being broke with disabilities , i have cerebral palsy ,autism , bipolar disorder, depression etc and trains are supposed to be my escape  and planning my layout has been getting nowhere. i can picture it in my head - lots of steamers, turbines - some scratch built  from wood and brass and looking very strange - hydra signals line the right of way etc