Just bought a CC 31778 set, like new. Having issues with the 2056. Need some help!

Don't over think this. Those capacitors just go between each brush and frame ground. They are there for noise (EMI/RFI). The wires that matter are still on the brush hoods- blue and yellow.

Again, I can see, the capacitors likely were side bent upward originally with the 2 legs being common to the black wires which went to frame ground. Just make sure the lead attached to the brush hood doesn't short to frame ground. I think the one on the yellow wired brush lead broke loose at the solder joint to the bush hood and yellow wire solder point.

It’s an AC motor ………All you can do is make sure nothing is stiff, stuck or binding,….otherwise, 30 minutes is about all you’ll get out of her before she starts to slow down …..

Pat

Thanks Vernon. I can't overthink this one as I don't know much about electronics besides plugging something into a wall... It's all Greek to me, especially electrical schematics...

I love the look of traditional postwar steam locos.  Unfortunately they are geared tall, run way too fast, and as Pat points out their speed tends to change as they get warm (although in my experience they usually speed up instead of slowing down.)

Nevertheless, I bought one of these Conventional Classics Hudsons when they first came out.  My layout then was an O72 oval laid directly on the floor of my apartment loft.  Shoddy building construction and 40 years of settling meant that one side of the room was at least 1" higher(!) than the other--not a bad thing for testing.  Every postwar and MPC loco I tried had something of a "roller coaster" feel to it.  The amps would rise as it strained uphill toward my balcony door, then it would build speed as it raced down the other side toward the stairs.  Except the new CC 2056 didn't act like this.  Instead, it acted something like a speed-controlled loco in conventional mode!

Although it LOOKS like a postwar 2056, I wager that NONE of the mechanical parts will interchange.  Both motors use spur gears with two-stage reduction.  Perhaps due to the use of metric gears, the CC ratio is lower--about 13:1 instead of 11:1 on the postwar.  I don't believe this alone explains the difference in running characteristics.  Instead of the venerable and often balky mechanical e-unit, this CC Hudson has an electronic one.  I'm convinced the circuit has features to prevent a universal motor from overspeeding under light load.  In some ways the added control is a good thing, but the downside is that I found the motor "tight" and grabby at slow speeds, and subjectively not as gratifying to run as a postwar original.  Perhaps mine just needed more break-in time.  However other Forum posts suggest that the bearings/shaft alignment in some of these Conventional Classics was poor, and contributed to rough running.  I also believe these motors were designed for brushes with a very high resistance.  Different windings could also be responsible for the different operating characteristics.  It would be great if Bob Hannon or someone more knowledgeable than me would make some measurements and provide a cursory analysis of the circuit.

I thought about moving the electronic reverse from the CC 31778 to a vintage loco, and conversely, seeing if the Hudson's motor would "loosen up" with a conventional E-unit--or no E-unit at all.  Then Legacy came out, I moved on to other things, and pretty much forgot about all of this until today.

So @Jeff T , to troubleshoot your problem (and for the sake of science) I respectfully suggest that you disconnect the electronic E-unit, smoke unit, etc., and wire the motor directly to the rails.  Connect the wire from the pickup rollers to one brush; the motor should run in one direction.  Try for at least 30 minutes, see if it still slows down.  Also, monitor the current draw (amperage.)  If the loco keeps going or even speeds up a little, then the problem is in your E-unit and not the motor.  Please try it and let us know what you find.

I have to agree with Pat from Harmonyards on this one. I run a lot of pre and postwar engines and as I  usually don't run them for thirty minutes anymore I remember a few years ago I used to host "Train night" while being distracted from other train buffs engines would actually come to a complete stop after a significant amount of time running, and I think there may have been a couple of beers involved also to compound the situation😁

@Ted S posted:

I love the look of traditional postwar steam locos.  Unfortunately they are geared tall, run way too fast, and as Pat points out their speed tends to change as they get warm (although in my experience they usually speed up instead of slowing down.)

Nevertheless, I bought one of these Conventional Classics Hudsons when they first came out.  My layout then was an O72 oval laid directly on the floor of my apartment loft.  Shoddy building construction and 40 years of settling meant that one side of the room was at least 1" higher(!) than the other--not a bad thing for testing.  Every postwar and MPC loco I tried had something of a "roller coaster" feel to it.  The amps would rise as it strained uphill toward my balcony door, then it would build speed as it raced down the other side toward the stairs.  Except the new CC 2056 didn't act like this.  Instead, it acted something like a speed-controlled loco in conventional mode!

Although it LOOKS like a postwar 2056, I wager that NONE of the mechanical parts will interchange.  Both motors use spur gears with two-stage reduction.  Perhaps due to the use of metric gears, the CC ratio is lower--about 13:1 instead of 11:1 on the postwar.  I don't believe this alone explains the difference in running characteristics.  Instead of the venerable and often balky mechanical e-unit, this CC Hudson has an electronic one.  I'm convinced the circuit has features to prevent a universal motor from overspeeding under light load.  In some ways the added control is a good thing, but the downside is that I found the motor "tight" and grabby at slow speeds, and subjectively not as gratifying to run as a postwar original.  Perhaps mine just needed more break-in time.  However other Forum posts suggest that the bearings/shaft alignment in some of these Conventional Classics was poor, and contributed to rough running.  I also believe these motors were designed for brushes with a very high resistance.  Different windings could also be responsible for the different operating characteristics.  It would be great if Bob Hannon or someone more knowledgeable than me would make some measurements and provide a cursory analysis of the circuit.

I thought about moving the electronic reverse from the CC 31778 to a vintage loco, and conversely, seeing if the Hudson's motor would "loosen up" with a conventional E-unit--or no E-unit at all.  Then Legacy came out, I moved on to other things, and pretty much forgot about all of this until today.

So @Jeff T , to troubleshoot your problem (and for the sake of science) I respectfully suggest that you disconnect the electronic E-unit, smoke unit, etc., and wire the motor directly to the rails.  Connect the wire from the pickup rollers to one brush; the motor should run in one direction.  Try for at least 30 minutes, see if it still slows down.  Also, monitor the current draw (amperage.)  If the loco keeps going or even speeds up a little, then the problem is in your E-unit and not the motor.  Please try it and let us know what you find.

The reverse unit ain’t got a nickel in this problem buddy, ……as far as the motor goes, it’s simple old school AC …..filter it all you want with caps, etc, …it’s still AC,….a per mag motor runs cooler for a much longer time,…..there’s no field that needs a controlled short to energize…..AC motors make heat, & heat is the enemy of any electric motor …..no?.

Pat

@Jeff T posted:

Just picked this up two days ago. Brought it home, oiled the axles, armature bearing and greased the gears. Unit was/is very clean and appears to be well taken care of. Bought from a gentleman who appeared to be a "train guy".

Running at home, small oval with a CW-80: Ran fine 30 minutes or so, then it noticeably slowed down. Applied more power, no change. Turned it off, took a visible look, could see nothing out of place and then it ran fine again. About 30 minutes later same slow down occurred. While the engine was warm, it was nothing alarming.

Today at the club, 180W brick, Legacy Powerhouse and a Cab 1L, it had the same running issues as home... I also noticed at home and the club, when you went to change directions a little nudge helped.

Finally home, popped the shell and this is what I see. (BTW - The one wire snapped when I took off the cover) Anyone have a modern 2056 that could compare it to the pic below??

Trying to sort if this is as it came or if someone had fooled with it previously. Thanks for your help!!

The capacity is saying really doesn’t serve any purpose other than quieting down interference. I have found most postwar engines if properly serviced can run indefinitely. But I do check them occasionally on a Christmas light up and feel the back head with a motor resides and check for heat. Some Post motors will run hotter than others. Also having proper brushes clean, commutators properly lubed and not pulling too many cars goes along way to stopping heat. I have to go with the other guns if you’re going to run them for a while every 15 or 20 minutes I would check them .

Thanks for all the comments. Everything is back together and running fine. Looks like I will pass this set on. I bought it specifically to run at the club during open houses where it may run an hour or longer. Since it won't do that... Thanks Again!!

I no longer have need to run my postwar 2055-2056 type engines for long stretches, however back in the 1990s I used to set up a train display* for the community to enjoy in the fellowship hall of the church where I was Pastor.

Both the postwar and modern engines would run non-stop throughout the evening without any slow-down/stop issues.

My current 2055-2056 locomotives are typically slow to start, speed up as they warm up, then circle the Christmas tree oval as long as I'm willing to allow them to run.

So, my experiences are opposite, however, my experiences involve postwar locomotives and thus not "modern era", so I may be comparing apples to oranges?

Andre

I believe without actually seeing this and looking at the condition of the commutator, armature, and bearings that it is difficult to assign a cause to the issue.  I have seen Pulmore motors run for hours, but I have also seen them start to slow down when they run for a while and start to get pretty warm.

I ran my dual-motored Phantom set for a continuous two hours at one of our modular club shows, and it showed no signs of slowing down for that period of time.  I did do a lube and cleaning of the commutators before I took it to the show.  I will say that the Pulmore motors require more maintenance than can motors.

Lionel’s recent (last 10-12 years) dive back into classic postwar and prewar models with Pullmor motors has been checkered with quality problems. When I was still doing repair at a service station, certain models imherently had gremlins from the beginning. As I recall, the 261/262E, and some of the sheet metal frame alco’s were particularly plagued. Not sure about any of the CC steam models since I never encountered any. The problems were usually with the motors themselves and overheating was very common along with excessive arcing on the commutator. I tinkered with them quite a bit with limited success. The mechanical E-units Lionel put in the 261E models were total crap; I replaced a few of those with original postwar.

As for the claim that all open frame motors will crap out after 30 minutes of running, I call shenanigans. I’ve had a number of AC motor equipped models go for 1-2 hours on a club modular layout: prewar, postwar, and modern. Certain models won’t do it because the motors weren’t built well but the quality pieces will handle it albeit with periodic throttle adjustments. My 2055 and 2065 are strong runners, 2353’s, 675, 226E, 763E, 224E, and my AEC GP9 which has run for hours pulling a 16 car train. Are the DC motor equipped models better performers: absolutely.

For what it's worth here is a quote from the instruction sheet supplied with the display layouts Lionel built in the fifties:

"Stop the operation of the display every hour or so to allow the equipment to cool down"

Lionel also suggested having a duplicate engine to swap out to maintain continuous operation.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

Lionel’s recent (last 10-12 years) dive back into classic postwar and prewar models with Pullmor motors has been checkered with quality problems.

The Chinese with their excellent QC departments are building the new motors.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

Lionel’s recent (last 10-12 years) dive back into classic postwar and prewar models with Pullmor motors has been checkered with quality problems. When I was still doing repair at a service station, certain models imherently had gremlins from the beginning. As I recall, the 261/262E, and some of the sheet metal frame alco’s were particularly plagued. Not sure about any of the CC steam models since I never encountered any. The problems were usually with the motors themselves and overheating was very common along with excessive arcing on the commutator. I tinkered with them quite a bit with limited success. The mechanical E-units Lionel put in the 261E models were total crap; I replaced a few of those with original postwar.

As for the claim that all open frame motors will crap out after 30 minutes of running, I call shenanigans. I’ve had a number of AC motor equipped models go for 1-2 hours on a club modular layout: prewar, postwar, and modern. Certain models won’t do it because the motors weren’t built well but the quality pieces will handle it albeit with periodic throttle adjustments. My 2055 and 2065 are strong runners, 2353’s, 675, 226E, 763E, 224E, and my AEC GP9 which has run for hours pulling a 16 car train. Are the DC motor equipped models better performers: absolutely.

Nobody said they’d crap out after 30 minutes, but a noticeable slow down is eminent ….ie; requiring a throttle adjustment,……that’s just the nature of the beast……but the best part is the wonderful smell of that nostalgic ozone, along with that classic e unit buzz,……

Pat