@breezinup posted:Another laughable paint job by Lionel. You don't know what you're going to get from them these days until you actually see it.
I guess in this case. Trains "are like a box of chocolates......."
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Rick, that really captures it. I wish I would have come up with that one. Almost makes me think of My Cousin Vinny now. "And since it was GM, where both cars offered in Metallic Mint Green?" "They were!"
Surely Lionel has issued a blanket RMA so these can be returned without sticking it to the dealers. It does beg the question, who inspected one of these and okayed it for shipment in the first place?
Expecting this....
And got this???.....ugh!!!!
Wow!!! I feel really bad for you guys. I thought my NYC smoke box was disappointing, but that flat pale green is down right disturbing. And nothing like what was advertised in the catalog. Even worse than the Vision Line Niagara. Who at Lionel is responsible for these horrific color choices??? I knew a girl once who drank a whole bottle of Boone's Farm Apple Wine and threw up that color.
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@Rider Sandman posted:Surely Lionel has issued a blanket RMA so these can be returned without sticking it to the dealers. It does beg the question, who inspected one of these and okayed it for shipment in the first place?
Are any inspections able to take place right now with COVID going on?
Edit: I know Scott Mann normally takes a trip to the factory to inspect personally and I am assuming here that Lionel would do the same. Is this a reasonable assumption?
@0-Gauge CJ posted:Are any inspections able to take place right now with COVID going on?
Edit: I know Scott Mann normally takes a trip to the factory to inspect personally and I am assuming here that Lionel would do the same. Is this a reasonable assumption?
You know, in-person inspections are great, but we have this thing. Called… The Internet. Oh, and these other things called digital cameras…
Here’s what I don’t get. Lionel and other manufacturers need to get permission from the owners of these old railroads to use the logos and trade dress, right? What company that gives permission to make models of their equipment is going to be “OK” with them looking like this???
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:Rick, that really captures it. I wish I would have come up with that one. Almost makes me think of My Cousin Vinny now. "And since it was GM, where both cars offered in Metallic Mint Green?" "They were!"
Rick’s comparison is .....”iiiiiiiiidentical” .....😉...
Pat
@rplst8 posted:You know, in-person inspections are great, but we have this thing. Called… The Internet. Oh, and these other things called digital cameras…
Here’s what I don’t get. Lionel and other manufacturers need to get permission from the owners of these old railroads to use the logos and trade dress, right? What company that gives permission to make models of their equipment is going to be “OK” with them looking like this???
100% agree. I can't see why Lionel can't make a reference color chart and send it to the manufacturer. They take the model and place it next to the chart and shoot it with a camera in the same shot. It either matches the colors on the chart or it doesn't.
I'm sorry folks but I will never accept a locomotive that is so off in color that you have to pay someone else to make it right.
@harmonyards posted:Rick’s comparison is .....”iiiiiiiiidentical” .....😉...
Pat
Pat, as my brother says when saying the line you are quoting, "you have to remember to clap your hands." Too many times have I quoted that and been corrected by him. Heck, I supposed to be the movie guy in the family, but the leading lady is why he remembers it better than me even though I like her too.
@0-Gauge CJ posted:Are any inspections able to take place right now with COVID going on?
Edit: I know Scott Mann normally takes a trip to the factory to inspect personally and I am assuming here that Lionel would do the same. Is this a reasonable assumption?
I’m talking about stateside inspection before they were sent to the dealers. In other words, how could someone in North Carolina open the container and deem these worthy to pass on to their dealers?
I learned years ago as a young engineer that it is much better to build in quality than it is to inspect in quality. But, at a minimum you have to try to do the latter if you’re not doing the former!
Could someone please recommend and inform me with contact information of someone who could repaint and change the lettering on this T&P 4-6-0 engine ?
Thank you.
How long is this silliness from Lionel going to last. Stop offering steam locomotives other than black until the contractor is held accountable. You are making a total fool out of the once great Lionel name. Do a recall and fix this mess.
@trains52 posted:Remember, they are only Toy Trains
...to some.
To others, such as myself, these are upper-end models that should be close to realism. (I reserve the term 'high-end' for 3rd rail and other manufacturers who work in brass that are extremely realistic).
FYI, This is how Lionel defines the engines in the "Legacy" family (taken straight from the catalog):
Note the use of the phrases: 'life-like detail' and '[resemblance] to true-to-like counterparts'.
Now, I don't think anyone is counting the rivets on these. However, paint shades are one of the first things you see when walking into the same room as the models and should be right.
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The old 'catch all' phrase created to forgive Lionel from these latest abominations.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I think an appointment with the eye doctor is in order!
Yup. 
And here's a good broad daylight shot of the real one posted earlier:
http://nonjohn.com/Texas%20&%20Pacific%20316.jpg
The green mint pastel color Lionel used isn't even close. It's roughly like the aaf0d1 shown below. I don't think any locomotive in history has ever been painted this color! 
#aaf0d1 Color Information
In a RGB color space, hex #aaf0d1 (also known as Magic mint) is composed of 66.7% red, 94.1% green and 82% blue. Whereas in a CMYK color space, it is composed of 29.2% cyan, 0% magenta, 12.9% yellow and 5.9% black. It has a hue angle of 153.4 degrees, a saturation of 70% and a lightness of 80.4%. #aaf0d1 color hex could be obtained by blending #ffffff with #55e1a3. Closest websafe color is: #99ffcc.
It would be really nice if someone from Lionel who monitors this forum would chime in and at least acknowledge the problem. I don't expect a recall, but at least discuss a solution going forward so that we customers can pre-order with some degree of confidence!!!
Skip, on another forum Lionel told a buyer of the T&P engine he could return his engine to his dealer and Lionel would refund the dealer so he wouldn’t be stuck with the engine. I suspect that would only apply to engines not run though. Lionel also made it clear they won’t be repainting nor replacing shells.
Pete
Ugh, that stinks.
Skip aka NYC Fan,
Haven't seen you in a long time. Hope you are doing well. The problem with your post is that it makes complete sense and is reasonable.
Erol
Maybe Lionel should devote a YouTube video to how they are addressing their paint problems. Of course the first step in recognizing that you have a problem is admitting that there is a problem...
@Norton posted:Skip, on another forum Lionel told a buyer of the T&P engine he could return his engine to his dealer and Lionel would refund the dealer so he wouldn’t be stuck with the engine. I suspect that would only apply to engines not run though. Lionel also made it clear they won’t be repainting nor replacing shells.
Pete
I didn't expect that there would be any repainting or replacement for the product that's already been delivered. I think it would be reasonable for Lionel to acknowledge the problem to the extent that they recognize that customers are unhappy with changes to the catalog renditions and preproduction models displayed at train shows, and, discuss how they can remedy the situation so that it doesn't continue to happen in the future and we can pre-order with confidence.
I will say that if all of the people who bought that Texas & Pacific 4-6-0 returned that particular locomotive (it really is unacceptable) it might certainly get Lionel's attention.
@NYC Fan posted:I didn't expect that there would be any repainting or replacement for the product that's already been delivered. I think it would be reasonable for Lionel to acknowledge the problem to the extent that they recognize that customers are unhappy with changes to the catalog renditions and preproduction models displayed at train shows, and, discuss how they can remedy the situation so that it doesn't continue to happen in the future and we can pre-order with confidence.
I will say that if all of the people who bought that Texas & Pacific 4-6-0 returned that particular locomotive (it really is unacceptable) it might certainly get Lionel's attention.
The only thing that really got addressed to any kind of fixing was the Polar Express passenger cars IIRC. Thing is how are these engines different from those cars? Overall cost. There it is. Thing is though, if you add up the number of cars in the set, the production number produced and compared it to these T&P engines, I would think that the Polar Express cars would number more. For their part(Lionel), it is much easier to redo the cars than fix the engines because of the time involved in the work to them.
So does this mean that anyone that returns a T&P engine, that it goes to the scrap heap like the Moguls or do they get set aside to be reused down the line in another mis-painted future Ten Wheeler?
Either way we the consumers look at it, it is extremely aggravating. What we want we just don't seem to get. What they advertise/promote always seems to be slightly off mark or past Jupiter, Pluto, or any other planet we don't want to be near.
What do they want us to do? Do they want us to out source painters, Harmon Shops, Altoona Works, Schenectady, what? It is getting to the point where almost all of us have grievances that make not even a ripple in the ocean.
I was thinking today of bugging 3RD Rail to see if they would consider making a Dreyfuss Hudson. It would have to be two different versions(two road numbers), one with 12 wheel tender, other with the PT tender. At least we would know that it would be one great model(or two in this case should that happen).
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:The only thing that really got addressed to any kind of fixing was the Polar Express passenger cars IIRC. Thing is how are these engines different from those cars? Overall cost. There it is.
Interesting...plus, technically, the "Polar Express" didn't actually exist, did it?
Mark in Oregon
@Strummer posted:Interesting...plus, technically, the "Polar Express" didn't actually exist, did it?
Mark in Oregon
Well, the first run they had done the colors were spot on(I didn't get any of these), but the next and most recent ones the blue was so far off like the T&P mint green. One of the guys at York that year was ready to rip into Ryan(which he sort of did). Regardless, the issue was supposed to be corrected and I don't know the particulars, but if you were to look up "Polar Express wrong color" or something to that effect you would find the info on that.
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:I was thinking today of bugging 3RD Rail to see if they would consider making a Dreyfuss Hudson. It would have to be two different versions(two road numbers), one with 12 wheel tender, other with the PT tender. At least we would know that it would be one great model(or two in this case should that happen).
3rd Rail has done one already. Best detail of all of them. They have also made an ESE, J1a, J1d, and J3a Super Hudson. A few are on ebay now.
Pete
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@Norton posted:3rd Rail has done one already. Best detail of all of them. They have also made an ESE, J1a, J1d, and J3a Super Hudson. A few are on ebay now.
Pete
Dang it Pete, raining on my parade! That is a beautiful model. I wish I could get one. I did see a J1d out there, but I was looking at something else for a bit. I may have to expand my horizons of course, but that will wait for a bit(but not too long, lol).
Pete, I don't seem to see the J3a Super Hudson on there. Maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me. I do see two other Hudson's, but they are made by two other companies altogether. What am I missing?
Dave, I was saying all of those engines have already been made by 3rd Rail. They have all been on the auction site in past. I still say your best path to getting a Dreyfuss is get a Lionel TMCC or MTH one and have Sid or Bruk upgrade it for you. They are both well detailed, solid engines with Pittmans that anything produced today will not have.
Pete
@Norton posted:Dave, I was saying all of those engines have already been made by 3rd Rail. They have all been on the auction site in past. I still say your best path to getting a Dreyfuss is get a Lionel TMCC or MTH one and have Sid or Bruk upgrade it for you. They are both well detailed, solid engines with Pittmans that anything produced today will not have.
Pete
Ah, and yeah. I was asking Pat on one of the MTH runs that I saw, was the one with the paint that is off. I'll keep looking of course, because that is one of the things I do a lot of. Got a different engine that will be coming to me in a few. Plus waiting on that Kline Hudson to see if it doesn't sell. If it doesn't, I'm in a good place. If it does sell, well at least I tried. Heck, who knows, maybe I'll check out one of the J1's by 3RD rail. I'm a Hudson junky, lol.
Since we don't have any living witnesses on the forum who can tell us exactly what shade of green is "gray-green", I will simply repaint my new Lionel to look like the two Weaver ten wheelers I have already painted and placed on my layout. That will meet the "good enough" criteria for me.
I just looked this up on YouTube to compare colors on the Southern version. First two are from the video, last is from the catalog. I thought that the catalog was off as it was more metallic than what it was supposed to be. Is the color almost right or there(aside from the super shiny boiler that shouldn't be)?
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@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:I just looked this up on YouTube to compare colors on the Southern version. First two are from the video, last is from the catalog. I thought that the catalog was off as it was more metallic than what it was supposed to be. Is the color almost right or there(aside from the super shiny boiler that shouldn't be)?
Don't forget the catalog image is Photoshopped.
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:Don't forget the catalog image is Photoshopped.
Rusty
Yeah, space painted, out there, colors galore. Question is though, is the models color close to what the Southern colors are supposed to be? I have only just gotten the call today that the Ten Wheelers I ordered are in, and wouldn't be able to check the color out until I pick it up. I do have a FM Trainmaster(old one) that is Southern, but I don't know if that color is the same as what the Crescent Limited colors are. Granted the video was short, and the picture I cropped of the tender was glared by light because of the camera angle. Wish there was more videos out there.
The green on the Southern ten wheeler is lighter than the green they used on the Crescent Limited Pacifics. The engine runs perfectly and the smoke output is great especially for the whistle steam. I wish the green was closer to the Crescent Limited green.
Neal Jeter
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:Is the color almost right or there(aside from the super shiny boiler that shouldn't be)?
I’m not an expert on the Southern, but as delivered it looks pretty close. The catalog has the tender looking darker while the boiler looks shiny or metallic like you say.
Compare here to the Ps-4 at the Smithsonian:
https://americanhistory.si.edu...bject/nmah_214493%2C
Even the two pictures they have there look different from one another due to the lighting, and they are of the same locomotive!
I’m not a Southern expert by any stretch, but the green looks to be fairly consistent with a Southern FM I have from years ago. The smoke box and fire box are no bueno. I can’t comment on the red.
But for the color fumbles, these are very nice models. I’ve been trying to unsee the T&P version, but it’s in a class by itself.....
