Lionel 380 Super Motor has voltage but will not turn.

@TinplateDave posted:

 

1) After getting the brush plate back in place I bypassed the hand reverse switch by connect 1 brush wire to the end of the field winding and the other brush wire to the wire coming from the rollers.  

2) Next I took alligator clips and attached one to the field winding/brush wire and connected the other side directly to the frame.

1) This sounds wrong?  The Flyer prewar motors I work on, the field wire would have its power coming from the rollers to the bottom of the field, going through the field to the other side and then to one brush.  So if you are connecting 1 brush to the field and the other brush to the roller, wouldn't be both brushes connected to the same source of power? and nothing would happen.

2) connecting the field winding/brush wire to the frame would be a direct short, wouldn't it?  Therefore, again you would get nothing, but I suspect everything would be heating up and causing smoke.

My experience with wiring of prewar Flyer motors is that one wire should be coming from the rollers and going to the bottom of the field and then out of the field and going either to a brush or to a reverse unit and then to a brush.  The other wire should be coming from a source picking up the power from the wheels, ie the source would be coming from the frame somehow and either going to a brush or going to the reverse unit and then to a brush.

Possibly Lionel motors are wired oddly and I am unaware

NWL

Thanks for your reply, i'm not familiar with AF motors and their wiring but i'm sure it's similar.  On Lionel prewar motors the bottom of the field is just screwed directly to the stator housing.  The wire coming out the top of the field is usually connected to the reverse unit.  I've attached the wiring diagram that I found on Olsen's Toys which show where each wire connects to the reversing switch.  It looks clear to me but maybe i'm missing something.  I am referencing the top diagram for a 254 unit but it should be the same for all hand reverse motors.

That wiring diagram looks a bit different from the Flyer motors, as it does not show the source of the power to the bottom of the field.  Possibly, it connects to the frame of the motor to complete the circut?

Based on the wiring diagram you sent, it sounds like your first choice of connecting 1 wire out of the field to a brush and 1 wire from the rollers to a brush would be correct.

The second method you tried, would not be correct as it basically that bypasses the field.    

It could be that there is something wrong with the field or armature?  In all of my years working on Flyer motors I have only run across 1 engine that I could not make run and I finally guessed that the field was bad, as I tried swapping in a new armature and still it would not work.  

I am hoping the field isn't bad but in the back of my mind that's what i'm thinking.  I might just connect the cab and the headlight wires before testing again as the diagram does show that the headlights ground it.

I just was just hoping to confirm that the motor runs before putting it all back together.  Thanks again for your insights.

@TinplateDave posted:

I am hoping the field isn't bad but in the back of my mind that's what i'm thinking.  I might just connect the cab and the headlight wires before testing again as the diagram does show that the headlights ground it.

I just was just hoping to confirm that the motor runs before putting it all back together.  Thanks again for your insights.

The motor should run without the headlights connected.  I see there is a note on the diagram that indicates the bottom of the field connects to ground.  So, unless you have a bad ground connection on the bottom of the field, it should run without the lights being connected.

Tinplate Dave, the procedure you described in your original post was correct to run the motor without the reverse switch.  Using your jumper to bypass the field was a mistake, but did prove that you are getting current flow through the armature.  You need to check to see if there is continuity through the field winding.  You can do this with an ohm meter or just a light bulb.  There should be almost no resistance in the field windings, less than one ohm.  To check it with a light bulb, one end of the field Is connected to the frame, connect the other end of the field to a light bulb and then power to the other connection on the light bulb.  The lamp should light. If not, your concern that the field is open maybe correct.   The reason not to do this test with a volt meter is that volt meters read voltage with almost no current flowing. So the volt meter might show voltage on a circuit that would not flow any current when a load is applied.  If the problem is the field, it needs a good visual inspection to see if you can locate the problem.  It is unusual for field coils to open in the windings.  The problems are usually where the leads come off the ends of the coil.  If a problem can be found, sometimes it can be corrected by just unwrapping one or two turns of the magnetic wire and reterminating it.  

Your right, I hooked everything up and now the motor won't even hum or try to go.  I verified that the end of the field winding is wrapped around the grounding screw at the base of the stator and the screw is tight.  So how would I go about testing to see where the bad ground is?  As I mentioned earlier the only way I could get any signs of life from the motor is when I attached an alligator clip to the wires coming up from the roller board and one brush wire and the other brush wire to the winding.  I am doing everything possible to not have to remove the wheels since they are original and have no chips or indication of zinc expansion!!  

Hi David, thank you very much for your suggestions.  I just finished ohm testing the field winding with my digital meter and there is ALOT of resistance in the field winding.  So I started checking where the winding comes out of the spool and immediately I saw that the wire was broken and was just stuck in the side of the spool.  So I pulled the broken wire out and found where the good winding started again and I took another ohm reading from that point down to where the winding comes back out of the spool and attaches to it's screw.  Again I couldn't even get a resistance reading it just shows infinite.  It doesn't look like there are further breaks in the windings but there must be somewhere right?  When I have more time i'll have to unwind more and see what I find.  I took another ohm reading at the end of each of the brush wires where they connect to the reverse switch and i'm getting a steady 2.4 ohms.  Is this acceptable or is this an indication that the armature is bad as well?  Thanks.

Resistance of 2.4 ohms for the armature is correct. It sounds like your problem is in the field. You need to get continuity through the field coil. Robert Hannon is in Maryland and rebuilds old motors like this. You may want to contact him. 

Agree with David Johnston about the continuity and NWL about bad fields being unusual but it does happen. The fact you found it broken and poking into the winding is a bad omen. Even if it's not broken anywhere else the coating on the wire could be comprised and causing one or more shorts. I just had to sideline one where someone rewound a field and ruined the coating in the process. The motor did run but got way too hot. Hope it helps.

I really appreciate everyone for your help.  This is the first motor that I haven't been able to fix and i've had some doozy's.  I'm the type of guy who never gives up and will keep digging until the end whether that be a dead super motor or a running super motor.  Now that I know what the cause is I can dedicate time to slowly find the problem and hopefully repair it.  To me these old Lionel Standard Gauge trains and engines are electric masterpieces and i've spent untold hours fixing and running them.  I hate the thought of replacing this 380's original motor so i'll keep pressing on and learning as I go.  Thanks again to this forum and it's members for all the knowledge.  Dave S.