Lionel cancels Mechanical Reefers

This soooo won't get me all agitated again...

Ben.

I have somehow come to expect this type of behavior.  My question is why do we wait until the item is supposed to be shipped(or longer) before we find this out?  If the order numbers were too low, would one not know this before the scheduled delivery date? I really try and stay on Lionel's side, with positive answers about the company to the visitors at club train shows, but this behavior borderlines on rude.

Craig 

>> Due to low orders and higher tooling costs Lionel is canceling the following reefers;

 

I am not aware of any other company that announces new products with prices in a printed catalog before they know the cost of tooling.  Is this a new way of doing business?  Guess I am just an "old school" guy who likes to figure things out ahead of time.  Ed L.

They (Lionel, MTH, Atlas) all know the cost of tooling.  What they do NOT know what the sales will be until they advertise the product.  Then and ONLY then can they do a Cost Benefit analysis.  So now based on orders or lack there of the cost benefit is negative.  Simple Econ 101.

 

Ron

At this point I wish MTH and Lionel would do smaller Catalogs so they do not have to cancel as many products.  

 "What they do NOT know what the sales will be until they advertise the product.  Then and ONLY then can they do a Cost Benefit analysis.  So now based on orders or lack there of the cost benefit is negative.  Simple Econ 101."

 

    I think their logic is wrong. They can't know the sales till they have the car in the shops ready to buy. Guys from other scales are not gonna pre order a car but once they see how nice it is a lot might buy it instead of buying an HO scale car. Most folks I know say they'd rather be modeling in S scale but they can't due to lack of scale product. Lionel doesn't get this so it might take a new company with roots in the scale modeling community to exploit the full potential of S scale, and if that happened it would probably capture a good portion of the O crowd once they see how nice S fits in their train rooms?So Lionel might be taking a bigger risk by not building new S stuff than by building some and testing the market.The big problem is building in a quantity than can lower unit price and keep the cars in stock as demand develops over a period of time, a one run limited production is not gonna create a big base of S scale modelers, it needs to be something like an updated version of American Models or SHS that is in it for the long haul..........DaveB

I think its become a circular path.Lets announce it and see if someone pre-orders based on the possibility of cancellation (sort of a implied buy now or not at all) and be disappointed when cancelled, long delivery times if it isnt cancelled, once its delivered does it look like what was represented and / or does it work? Not what I would call big incentives to buy. Nothing beats kicking the tires. Pennywise and pound foolish marketing misfire. Bean counting versus reliability. Fail.

Heck, sometimes Lionel cancels an item before the ink's dry on the catalog.

 

I think the bigger issue is the announcement of cancellation so close to the anticipated delivery date.  There were folks out there actually looking forward to these reefers.

 

This should have been announced a month or so after the pre-order deadline passed.  After all, there should ave been an inkling of them not being economically viable by that time.

 

And maybe, just maybe, perhaps followed another month later with an announcement of an alternative product rather than total abandonment.

 

We'll have to wait and see what the next catalog promises, but I'd be willing to bet any new scaled offerings will be viewed with a jaundiced eye.

 

Rusty

Smaller catalogs? LOL... This was the ONLY piece of new scale tooling in the catalog and the canceled it. How much smaller do you want?

 

Lionel should re-list the 57" reefer in the 2015 catalog with a detailed clarification on the truck coupler situation that made people not pre-order because of the Cylidrical Hopper mistakes they made.  Also list 8 cars instead of 5 with additional roadnames to increase pre-orders.  They will allow it to sell.  In addition listen to what the "S" customer wants for modern rolling stock such as Autoracks or more modern tank cars. It should not be Lionel telling us what we should want but rather them listening to what we want.

1:64 Autoracks would never go around 20" radius curves.  Lionel/MTH/whoever would have to have the courage to list them in their catalog as 27" minimum radius.

 

I just don't see that happening.

I agree with what has been posted about re cataloging the reefers, fix the truck problem, get new unmessed-up hoppers out there and let people see and run them.  After that re catalog the reefers and note in the catalog that they work and THEN see what orders are like. 

Ben

Actually Martin that's not exactly correct. Lionel makes O scale Autoracks that negotiate O-54 (27"r) thanks to the telescoping draft gear. If they did the same thing in S they would likely negotiate 20"r. What it would look like is another matter, but they could do it if they wanted to.

"1:64 Autoracks would never go around 20" radius curves.  Lionel/MTH/whoever would have to have the courage to list them in their catalog as 27" minimum radius.

 

I just don't see that happening."

 

   Alas O made articulated auto racks that would go around 36 inch radius which would equal about 27 inches in S scale. I don't know how they sold but I had some and ran them on my 46 inch radius O scale curves and they looked pretty good. I think the bigger problem is expecting scale S stuff to run on 20 inch radius since that's even toy looking for HO scale. A 30 inch minimum radius standard for S would be small enough to fit in most rooms and still allow reasonable looking track work and performance. Lots of O toy train folks fit in O-72 or 36 inch radius so why not scale S guys? ......DaveB 

The old Athearn HO TTX cars and 86' Hy-Cubes went around 18" radius. 

 

It wasn't pretty.

 

This is an AM 85' Pullman on my 27" radius interchange/test curve:

Rusty

"This is an AM 85' Pullman on my 27" radius interchange/test curve:"

 

    I think that looks fine in the context of layout operation versus scenic compromise.My new S layout plan will have some industrial tracks near that radius but they'll only need to handle 50 or maybe 60 foot cars. In the big picture 27 inch radius is equivalent to O-54 which most guys can find room for so a 27 or 30 inch minimum S scale standard for new models should be workable. I think the major step is dis-associating S scale from flyer and letting it stand on it's own merits between HO scale and O scale, then more  modelers will be inclined to consider S as an attractive alternative.......DaveB  

Daveb, johnnyspeed, and Rusty,

 

Are you guys saying that Lionel would have no problem listing 27" radius minimum rolling stock in their catalog, should they decide to tool up some larger modern items?

 

Because I though Lionel is adamant about keeping everything they make capable of running on original AF track.

 

Martin

Given Lionel's *ahem* "track record" with their one and only scaled S car I wouldn't be placing any bets.  We still don't know if they've learned anything from the first run hopper misadventures.

 

Seeing they bailed on the reefer, I wouldn't hold my breath for other long modern cars.

 

Rusty

"Are you guys saying that Lionel would have no problem listing 27" radius minimum rolling stock in their catalog, should they decide to tool up some larger modern items?

 

Because I though Lionel is adamant about keeping everything they make capable of running on original AF track."

 

    Flyer track design is over 60 years old so it's time to move on. If Atlas O can sell O scale stuff requiring 36 inch minimum radius then Lionel or anyone else should be able to sell plenty of S stuff for 27 inch minimum radius. They just need to approach S as another modeling scale and forget about trying to please flyer fans . HO scale doesn't worry about Flyer nor does N scale or any other scales so why should S scale modelers have to bear that burden? ....DaveB