lionel JLC GG1 sideframes zinc rot

If you contact Bob Karas he may have an extra set of side frames for you. He had a few extra of these at the last York. 

J Daddy posted:

If you contact Bob Karas he may have an extra set of side frames for you. He had a few extra of these at the last York. 

He's been the only source I've found.  I had one arrive mint in the box with disintegrated frames, and discovered my other one sitting on the shelf had the same issue.  The repairs weren't cheap, but it beat a couple of $400 paperweights.

Greetings Everyone,

Sorry to sound facetious but Good Luck finding these.  I purchased a 6-18374 Lionel Pennsylvania GG1 #4866 Silver Single Stripe a couple years ago at York.  I didn’t notice the “Zinc Rot” until I got her home and was able to do a complete and thorough inspection.  I contacted Lionel which resulted in No Joy.  Fortunately for me, I purchased the last two form S&W Parts Supply sometime last year and was able to replace the bad Powered Truck Side Frame with Pilot.  I’ll probably get yanked for saying this but IMO Lionel knew about this problem but kept it under wraps which, I believe, is the reason for these parts being practically non-existent.  When I initially spoke with Lionel, I asked if the new Vision Line GG1 Power Truck Side Frame with Pilot would fit the JLC GG1’s, I was told that it was unknown because they didn’t have any replacement parts available for the VL GG1 at that time.  BTW, while at York I actually saw more than one JLC GG1 where the Power Truck Side Frames with Pilot were laying in pieces inside the Styrofoam box.

Chief Bob (Retired)   

I had 24 of them and sold them all on the form. I replaced them on 2 of my own  because of sink rot.

The new gg1 side frame will not fit ,Lionel re-tooled the motor trucks so there side frames do not fit. I tried it

"Lionel knew about this problem but kept it under wraps which, I believe, is the reason for these parts being practically non-existent.  When I initially spoke with Lionel, I asked if the new Vision Line GG1 Power Truck Side Frame with Pilot would fit the JLC GG1’s, I was told that it was unknown because they didn’t have any replacement parts available for the VL GG1 at that time."

Actually, Lionel did not know about this issue. Zinc rot happens over time when a casting that has bad porosity in the shot or bad "regrind" material. It could  take 12 months or even years to rear its ugly head. High humidity or changes in temperature can accelerate its failure. 

It was stated before that the Vision Line side frames and trucks are NOT interchangeable, So new shots of the old tool would be the only replacement. If it exist. 

Best bet is to stay clear of the JLC GG1.

For operators rather than collectors I guess, but are the parts workable for casting in Alumilite or similar and making your own replacements?

The ones on my loco are expanded and distorted, so they could not be used as masters to create new ones.

If there  was a market for it, the best option would be to remake a new die cast tool. Problem is the capital to make the tool. A lot of those Mom and Pop shops here in Detroit are long gone 

Bob Karas posted:

I had 24 of them and sold them all on the form. I replaced them on 2 of my own  because of sink rot.

The new gg1 side frame will not fit ,Lionel re-tooled the motor trucks so there side frames do not fit. I tried it

 

  

Bob, were the ones you had new old stock, or were they reproductions of some sort?

J Daddy posted:

"Lionel knew about this problem but kept it under wraps which, I believe, is the reason for these parts being practically non-existent.  When I initially spoke with Lionel, I asked if the new Vision Line GG1 Power Truck Side Frame with Pilot would fit the JLC GG1’s, I was told that it was unknown because they didn’t have any replacement parts available for the VL GG1 at that time."

Actually, Lionel did not know about this issue. Zinc rot happens over time when a casting that has bad porosity in the shot or bad "regrind" material. It could  take 12 months or even years to rear its ugly head. High humidity or changes in temperature can accelerate its failure. 

It was stated before that the Vision Line side frames and trucks are NOT interchangeable, So new shots of the old tool would be the only replacement. If it exist. 

Best bet is to stay clear of the JLC GG1.

Hi J Daddy,

If you are going to quote me, please be sure to include the entire quote with all the words.  You left out "IMO" which changes the context of the statement that you actually quoted which suggests that I somehow had information that Lionel actually knew of the problem and intentionally hid it.  It was my opinion because that's all it was, just an opinion.  My supposition was such because there were so many of the JLC GG1's that displayed this defect and the subsequent shortage or unavailable of replacement parts should have raised a red flag.  Several years ago I had a MTH Railking PRR K4 tender completely destroyed by Zinc Pest.  I contacted MTH and a replacement tender was provided.  I would think that smaller parts would be easier to stock in quantity.  Just sayin'

Chief Bob (Retired)

I've been watching this "topic" ever since it reared it rotted head years ago.

Since Lionel is basically disowning this problem, I can think of only 3 realistic options if new tooling needs to be made. 

1) Lost wax brass castings, 2) 3-D printing, or 3) styrene injection.  One of these aforementioned methods is the only way to guarantee an elimination of zinc rot.

Fred

Well, even a diecast part would be fine, I figure I'd probably be done before the next set rotted.

Is it possible to buy the whole truck assembly AND side frames from the Vision model?  I mean, they're both scale models of the GG-1, right?  Assuming the shells are the same, if you wanted to spend a fortune and buy side frames, truck blocks, motors, chassis, etc., and swap parts, you would eventually end up with an operable model.

Caveat Emptor, I know.  But zinc pest (and the lack of replacement parts) is a big issue.  There ought to be a persistent "watch list" on the Forum, or somewhere else on the web that folks can refer to, and be informed that there's a known risk of zinc rot for certain products.

It's true that if a pricey loco lands on the watch list, this could devalue a dealer's shelf inventory, especially if he or she has multiple examples in stock.  However, that dealer has more leverage to go back to the manufacturer and force a run of replacement parts than individual buyers do.  A dealer also has the option to take a markdown on the value of inventory ("write-off") and sell them as-is with full disclosure.

For example: I've always been curious about the 763E / 700E.  Cost aside, I've seen & heard enough about warped frames, crumbling tenders, etc.  I don't have $2500 to lose, so I just stay away!!  The early 700E is a well-known case.  All I'm saying is, there's enough combined knowledge on the Forum to create a modern era list.  It could even drive an effort by the OE manufacturers (or cottage 3D printers, etc.), to re-run critical and hard-to-find parts.

This is part of how the TCA was born.  By the 1950s, many of the standard gauge classics suffered from crumbling wheels, pilots, trim parts, etc.  Great folks like MEW, Hennings, etc., became aware of the need and reissued them, from the original or new tooling.  Now I know there's a LOT more variety in production today than there was with the mass-produced trains of the '20s & 30s.  But we also have a vastly improved ability to share information, and when 3D printing matures, perhaps a better means of making the parts in small batches. 

Let's think about it!

Reading about these metal rotting problems on trains that are 10 or so years old makes me feel we're a bunch of suckers. This is a sorry state of affairs from Lionel and MTH. To date, I've only experienced crumbling trucks on my Atlas die-cast coal hoppers, but who knows what's going on inside boxes of trains that I've had in storage. Fortunately, I was able to buy replacement trucks directly from Atlas - but with any of this stuff one has to wonder if it'll hold-up.

Paul Kallus posted:

Reading about these metal rotting problems on trains that are 10 or so years old makes me feel we're a bunch of suckers. This is a sorry state of affairs from Lionel and MTH. To date, I've only experienced crumbling trucks on my Atlas die-cast coal hoppers, but who knows what's going on inside boxes of trains that I've had in storage. Fortunately, I was able to buy replacement trucks directly from Atlas - but with any of this stuff one has to wonder if it'll hold-up.

Hey Paul, 

I'm not sure I would take this issue so personally. It doesn't make it any less painful, but zinc problems have existed in this industry since the beginning. Prewar, postwar, modern. They have all had issues and manufacture does not matter. I think where people get frustrated is that we know what causes the problem and how to correct it but we choose not to.

Look at it from a factory standpoint.  If you know you have a bad pour with contaminated metals but you also know that if you finish the product and it won't cause an issue for ten years and that your importer won't catch it under a initial visual inspection, then most companies especially those who know their relationships with the importer are not long term will take the shortcut. As bad as that sounds, I really feel like the truth falls into that realm. 

Someone is going to have to take the initiative to 3D scan a set of good JLC side frames and re-make them. That's a real passion project for such a small niche, but clearly a market exists. The question is how much are people willing to pay for a set of good side frames? Is $125 for side frames for a $500 engine worth it? This is a big open ended question with not many answers. Time will tell how the situation is handled. 

Maybe Lionel and MTH consider doing as you recommended in 3D then reproducing frames at a reasonable price......Just Sayin ! 

PUFFRBELLY posted:

J Daddy posted:

"Lionel knew about this problem but kept it under wraps which, I believe, is the reason for these parts being practically non-existent.  When I initially spoke with Lionel, I asked if the new Vision Line GG1 Power Truck Side Frame with Pilot would fit the JLC GG1’s, I was told that it was unknown because they didn’t have any replacement parts available for the VL GG1 at that time."

Actually, Lionel did not know about this issue. Zinc rot happens over time when a casting that has bad porosity in the shot or bad "regrind" material. It could  take 12 months or even years to rear its ugly head. High humidity or changes in temperature can accelerate its failure. 

It was stated before that the Vision Line side frames and trucks are NOT interchangeable, So new shots of the old tool would be the only replacement. If it exist. 

Best bet is to stay clear of the JLC GG1.

Hi J Daddy,

If you are going to quote me, please be sure to include the entire quote with all the words.  You left out "IMO" which changes the context of the statement that you actually quoted which suggests that I somehow had information that Lionel actually knew of the problem and intentionally hid it.  It was my opinion because that's all it was, just an opinion.  My supposition was such because there were so many of the JLC GG1's that displayed this defect and the subsequent shortage or unavailable of replacement parts should have raised a red flag.  Several years ago I had a MTH Railking PRR K4 tender completely destroyed by Zinc Pest.  I contacted MTH and a replacement tender was provided.  I would think that smaller parts would be easier to stock in quantity.  Just sayin'

Chief Bob (Retired)

Chief Bob - Sorry about that - did not want to offend.  My point was is as time will go on, the amount of models that have the zinc rot will become apparent.  As you know manufactures see this issue 2 or more years after the parts are made.  Where the trains are stored can make the problem worse. 

I have been on the same soap box looking for parts. But its sounds like with the move to the Vision Line GG1, the JLC truck tooling may not be available anymore. And if the tool is available to run again. Its going to take a whole lot of them to fail in the near future for Lionel to set that die up and run parts again.

Well is sure is a bummer that an expensive, feature-laden piece like this can only be used as a door stop.

NOBODY has any ideas of a work around or how to get these locos running??

The Chinese factories really do not grasp the concept of repair/replacement parts. Everything they make is single use. When it breaks, throw it away. The previous president of Lionel, Calebreese, had the same outlook  and one time tried to get all the repair parts removed from inventory.

Fortunately, the side frames on my sample of the JLC GG1 (Brunswick green, five stripe) are still perfect, and the piece still looks great and functions beautifully. The good news is that the problem is not universal. However, this is small comfort for those who do have the issue. The "old" Lionel would have had the parts. The "new" Lionel , well .....

Sincerely hope that there can be a resolution for those with the problem.

Bob

PUFFRBELLY posted:

J Daddy posted:

"Lionel knew about this problem but kept it under wraps which, I believe, is the reason for these parts being practically non-existent.  When I initially spoke with Lionel, I asked if the new Vision Line GG1 Power Truck Side Frame with Pilot would fit the JLC GG1’s, I was told that it was unknown because they didn’t have any replacement parts available for the VL GG1 at that time."

Actually, Lionel did not know about this issue. Zinc rot happens over time when a casting that has bad porosity in the shot or bad "regrind" material. It could  take 12 months or even years to rear its ugly head. High humidity or changes in temperature can accelerate its failure. 

It was stated before that the Vision Line side frames and trucks are NOT interchangeable, So new shots of the old tool would be the only replacement. If it exist. 

Best bet is to stay clear of the JLC GG1.

Hi J Daddy,

If you are going to quote me, please be sure to include the entire quote with all the words.  You left out "IMO" which changes the context of the statement that you actually quoted which suggests that I somehow had information that Lionel actually knew of the problem and intentionally hid it.  It was my opinion because that's all it was, just an opinion.  My supposition was such because there were so many of the JLC GG1's that displayed this defect and the subsequent shortage or unavailable of replacement parts should have raised a red flag.  Several years ago I had a MTH Railking PRR K4 tender completely destroyed by Zinc Pest.  I contacted MTH and a replacement tender was provided.  I would think that smaller parts would be easier to stock in quantity.  Just sayin'

Chief Bob (Retired)

Yes, & now you know - MTH is more reliable when it comes to backing up their product & having parts available.  While my dealings with Lionel Service Dept. was always good (in years past) the Lionel OF TODAY is sadly not THE Lionel of YESTER YEARS.

I have a tuscan 5-stripe JLC GG1 that has no zinc pest issues with the trucks, so they are not all defective.  I have some items with zinc pest (Lionel, Atlas, older 3rd Rail, and MTH), all in the trucks and couplers, except for two MTH EMD switcher calves, which have a bit of zinc pest paint peeling on the die cast frames.

I also have a Lionel 700E and a 763E with no zinc pest issues, both in their original boxes.  I do have a spare 700E tender (700W) with some warping.  I also have a Lionel 225E with a bit of zinc pest deformation in the boiler.

It seems that zinc pest was really only a major problem with some pre-war items.  I do not recall seeing it on post war or "modern" items other than as noted above, and it really seems to be limited almost exclusively to trucks and couplers on modern trains.

Some of my recent experiences.  Seen in my collection and repair services.

Postwar 681 frame.  Cracking, swelling.  Drivers wouldn't turn.  Had to replace.

KLine diesel drive wheels disintegrating.  Usually the geared wheels but have seen them all fall apart.

Lionel modern electrocouplers.  Disintegrating.

I bought all six of the JLC GG1's.  The disintegrating side frames were on the silver and the green solid stripe version.  The other four were and are OK.  I changed them out with Lionel parts dept. replacements.

And of course many, many Prewar cast pieces.

any insight on which JLC GG1's have this problem or is it on all of them? I have the tuscan 5 stripe and single stripe as well as the green 5 stripe. I will have to check them. Is the problem only with specific color scheme runs?

I have the single stripe green one, and I decided to once again inspect all the trucks and side frames.  If there is any deterioration, I can't find it, I even took the side frames off and looked them over.  I suspect it was specific dates and batches of the trucks and sideframes that have the issue, not necessarily the color combinations.

I've handled 15 to 20 JLC GG1's in the past five or so years. The only ones I recall seeing is the silver with the solid tuscan stripe. This has led me to believe that it was primarily that run that was affected. I'd like to hear if it was any other colors. 

The only product I had trouble with was the Cascade Logging set Dockside Switcher.  Rear Coupler just fell apart.  They did this on my set and also my brothers set.  Got a replacement from Lionel good to go.  Here is what they look like.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have the single stripe green one, and I decided to once again inspect all the trucks and side frames.  If there is any deterioration, I can't find it, I even took the side frames off and looked them over.  I suspect it was specific dates and batches of the trucks and sideframes that have the issue, not necessarily the color combinations.

But unless they had unfortunate luck and made a lot of extras with the batches that were defective, wouldn't that correlate pretty well to the decorative scheme?

Considering they don't make spare parts to keep around, it wouldn't seem likely that any would normally be left over to infect a later run after being assembled into the specific item they were manufactured for originally.

Weren't the color combinations each only offered once, or did they repeat some of the early ones later?

-Dave

Ted S posted:

...Caveat Emptor, I know.  But zinc pest (and the lack of replacement parts) is a big issue.  There ought to be a persistent "watch list" on the Forum, or somewhere else on the web that folks can refer to, and be informed that there's a known risk of zinc rot for certain products...

I think others would also appreciate an consolidated online reference list of confirmed modern-day zinc pest models instead of the current scattered postings that exist on this forum and others.

Brandy posted:

Maybe Lionel and MTH consider doing as you recommended in 3D then reproducing frames at a reasonable price......Just Sayin ! 

You would think that with the advances in 3D scanning/printing technology and as the relevent pricing drops that we would see Lionel, MTH, Atlas and some others more seriously looking into or applying 3D printing for adding to their replacement parts on products that are in or no longer in current production.  Once whatever initial replacement parts get depleted the company can produce a part on a when needed basis without the burden and cost of maintaining a varied SKU on-hand inventory.

Dave45681 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have the single stripe green one, and I decided to once again inspect all the trucks and side frames.  If there is any deterioration, I can't find it, I even took the side frames off and looked them over.  I suspect it was specific dates and batches of the trucks and sideframes that have the issue, not necessarily the color combinations.

But unless they had unfortunate luck and made a lot of extras with the batches that were defective, wouldn't that correlate pretty well to the decorative scheme?

Considering they don't make spare parts to keep around, it wouldn't seem likely that any would normally be left over to infect a later run after being assembled into the specific item they were manufactured for originally.

Weren't the color combinations each only offered once, or did they repeat some of the early ones later?

-Dave

The JLC GG-1's probably were manufactured in a number of color schemes in one run.

RoyBoy posted:

 

I wonder if it's possible for affected owners to co-operate on patterning an un-affected or similar set of frames. At least there would be a master stored somewhere which copies could be made from. It would probably have to be a hobby group to avoid any copying re-percussions I suppose. Just my $0.02 or less.

You just have to get someone to strip their JLC GG-1 to make the patterns.   Also, you have to have the equipment and know-how to actually generate usable 3D CAD files from the the parts.  FWIW, the main truck casting was also affected, I have a friend that his main power trucks are crumbling.  It's not only the sideframes.

Notch 6 posted:

I've handled 15 to 20 JLC GG1's in the past five or so years. The only ones I recall seeing is the silver with the solid tuscan stripe. This has led me to believe that it was primarily that run that was affected. I'd like to hear if it was any other colors. 

Mine is green single stripe.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The JLC GG-1's probably were manufactured in a number of color schemes in one run.

True, but I left out the details I was trying to suggest, so I wasn't clear enough.  My bad.

I am sure I have the match ups wrong a bit, but they were offered in groups, IIRC.

It might have been green 5 Stripe along with tuscan single, and the penn central black one in the first run.  Then maybe the green single stripe, tuscan 5 stripe and silver one in the second run.  Something like that.  (and/or the later groups may have been less than 3 or even a single one offered in one of the catalogs)

Again, I probably have the match ups wrong (not digging up the catalogs just to check).  but the point being if there was a year in between run 1 and run 2, none of the trucks made for the first run likely were still sitting around the factory a year later for use on run 2.  So that is why I suggest there might be something to the color tracking the defect.  But I would agree it's likely that any different deco schemes from the same run (delivered nearly the same time) would likely be in the same boat regarding the chances of having the problem.

-Dave

Ouch!  Here is a GG1 recommendation:  Find the 3rd Rail equivalent, strip the Lionel and install the favored electronics in the 3rd Rail model, and eBay the leftover parts.

look online for people that cast in aluminum and see if they can copy one of the frames that you need. They also make a hi temp silicone rubber kit that you can cast in pewter. Some of the guys that are retired that may have some time on their hands could probably do the pewter casting. The silicone is about $40 a container but you may be able to cast many side frames. Look on Youtube you can see a lot of videos on casting.

I have a 18372 green single stripe that the side frames crumbled completely apart . I am converting it to use Williams trucks. that way I can still use it and it will run on 042 radius track.

@bob2 even brass is susceptible to corrosion if it's exposed to ammonia fumes.  I'm not interested in starting a museum; if it lasts another 40-50 yrs I won't be around to worry about it.  But with the high prices of our trains, I feel strongly that there should be a handy reference list of affected modern-era trains, built from this community's knowledge.

Maybe Scott, Lionel, etc., should use plastic (horrors!)  After all, K-cups will exist in landfills for thousands of years 

Lionel Parts posted:

I have a 18372 green single stripe that the side frames crumbled completely apart . I am converting it to use Williams trucks. that way I can still use it and it will run on 042 radius track.

Where are you getting the Williams parts? They have a sale on parts right now, but it still looks like a few hundred dollars in parts. Complete Williams scale GG1's are advertised for around $400-$500 or so on eBay.

"However, bearing in mind that moisture is the activator, reducing it is going to help slow down, or even prevent the curse."

If moisture is the activator of the zinc rot, wouldn't completely painting a part prevent moisture from reaching the underlying metal?  I suppose that this would mean that the manufacturers would have to take the extra step of dipping parts in a primer or some other kind of paint undercoat.  

NH Joe

RoyBoy posted:

Lionel Parts posted:

I have a 18372 green single stripe that the side frames crumbled completely apart . I am converting it to use Williams trucks. that way I can still use it and it will run on 042 radius track.

Where are you getting the Williams parts? They have a sale on parts right now, but it still looks like a few hundred dollars in parts. Complete Williams scale GG1's are advertised for around $400-$500 or so on eBay.

$500 is an insane price for the Williams GG1!  I bought the one I upgraded to TMCC for $120 at York a few years ago.  I can't believe they're worth four times that now!  I have a lot less than $500 total in mine, including all the upgrades.

Williams Scale GG1 TMCC Upgrade

RoyBoy posted:

Notch 6 posted:

I've handled 15 to 20 JLC GG1's in the past five or so years. The only ones I recall seeing is the silver with the solid tuscan stripe. This has led me to believe that it was primarily that run that was affected. I'd like to hear if it was any other colors. 

Mine is green single stripe.

Lionel did two maybe three runs of the JLC GG1 over 1 to 2 years..   My Tuscan 5 stripe is from the second run, the same run as the silver GG1 I believe.  Thankfully no problems yet with mine.  But,  knowing I have no use or tolerance for high priced crap production, the GG1 like the beautiful JLC Allegheny H8 I loved but sadly sold off that did suffer extensive zinc rot will be on the sell list shortly.

I can't think of a more frustrating and depressing moment for me, probably anyone who buys these things then when one suddenly finds irreparable zinc rot on a beautiful & expensive model. 

joe

gunrunnerjohn posted:

RoyBoy posted:

Lionel Parts posted:

I have a 18372 green single stripe that the side frames crumbled completely apart . I am converting it to use Williams trucks. that way I can still use it and it will run on 042 radius track.

Where are you getting the Williams parts? They have a sale on parts right now, but it still looks like a few hundred dollars in parts. Complete Williams scale GG1's are advertised for around $400-$500 or so on eBay.

$500 is an insane price for the Williams GG1!  I bought the one I upgraded to TMCC for $120 at York a few years ago.  I can't believe they're worth four times that now!  I have a lot less than $500 total in mine, including all the upgrades.

Williams Scale GG1 TMCC Upgrade

I agree completely with that. The problem is probably that they have not made another batch of them for several years. Google shows them for $169 at Trainworld, but that appears to be an old, long out of print ad.

It looks like your GG1 upgrade was six years ago.

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

Trainworld is where I got mine.  I wish I had bought a few of them now.

Some folks have cured this problem.  LA Die Casting has been making restaurant supplies out of die cast for over a half century that I know of.  Door handles on Fords are all die cast, and suffer incredible abuse.

I like good die cast trains - but now I am on the alert - how do you know the GG1 body won't blossom forth in short order?

My 700-series Lionel models are older than I am, and so far no blossoming.  Same with recent MTH.  

But your fix, unless Lionel steps up to the plate, is lost-wax brass repros.  It can be done with less than 1% shrinkage if you go to the right foundry.

I picked up a used Williams scale GG1 for $100.00 to use as a downer. I want to keep all  the sounds and features of the Lionel one so i am just using the truck assemblies. I will let you all know how it comes out when I am done.

It "may" be easier to use the chassis as well, I don't know if the Williams and Lionel truck mounts will be similar enough to use the Lionel chassis.

Unfortunately, "zinc rot" is but one hazard of offshore (especially Communist country) sourcing.  It comes as I understand it from manufacturing workers who might not even understand the effects of their sloppy work, if they care.  Probably most have never HAD a hobby, except trying to feed and support their family while avoiding their government.  

In the case of zinc rot- I understand it happens when non-specified metals get poured in as fillers in the zinc manufacturing practice.  The resulting metal alloys are more subject to deterioration.

The importers (Lionel, Atlas, MTH etc.) are relatively small companies.  Where GM can afford to have on-site Quality Control (QC) people stationed IN China, not so with these smaller companies.  So- they have to rely on locals to provide QC.  Maybe there are not enough QC people provided by the manufacturer?  Maybe the Chinese QC people are also not properly motivated as they might be here in the USA?

Then (again as I understand it) the Chinese government owns the controlling share of all the tools of production- including of making the parts and assembling the product.  Those tools of production are not generally ever released to be removed from China, so the importer (Lionel, MTH etc.) is a captive customer.  They may have a $200,000 piece of tooling that makes maybe $ 20,000 a year of product, that they cannot send to a more reliable manufacturer anywhere, but in China.

Even worse, (again as I understand it) the Chinese will not supply parts since they are suspicious that their customer might start assembling in the USA, and competing with them.  So- parts are scarce to FIX these issues when they occur.

When a USA (or other Western) manufacturer contracts w/ companies in China, they get in bed with the Devil.  Not really the importers' fault- the root cause is OUR fault for demanding cheap goods.  

Maybe that's why Postwar??

Just my opinion, not expert by any means.  But an experienced business mind at work.  

Mike Wyatt posted:

When a USA (or other Western) manufacturer contracts w/ companies in China, they get in bed with the Devil.  Not really the importers' fault- the root cause is OUR fault for demanding cheap goods.  

Mostly true, but there's one issue here.  Cheap goods?  I think NOT.  The stuff is expensive!

"However, bearing in mind that moisture is the activator, reducing it is going to help slow down, or even prevent the curse."

Not quite correct. Moisture is an accelerant, or a catalyst. Lack of moisture will NOT prevent the degradation from occurring, but rather just slow it down. The culprit is the impurity level in the raw alloy, specifically lead. Too much lead and the time bomb starts ticking. There is no shut off switch.

Chris

LVHR

MAYBE they are expensive.  But a locomotive selling for $30 (about average) in 1950, would be in 2019 dollars:  

$ 314.66

It's quite possible that trains could become even cheaper in the future and replacement parts could be easier to make. With the advent of 3D printing we may be past tooling that only makes one item. Items could be made on demand. The next 20 years could be very interesting in manufacturing.

But that doesn't really help anyone now.

Can someone be so kind as to post pictures of what to look for on the GG1

Just look at the side frames , If they are cracked or warped you found the problem.

The scale GG1 is back in the 2019 Bachmann catalog, for what that is worth.

Opened my Green/Solid Stripe JLC GG1 as I'm checking everything getting packed for a home move, and found zinc rot.  Frames still hold together, though are bowed outward.  The backs of the frames swelled to the point where they touch and bind.  My solution so far is to carefully dremel-sand off paint from the inside portions of each frame to reveal raw metal then cover these areas with epoxy.  Won't keep outside portions from flaking off, but may keep the frames generally intact.  

Sent an email off to Lionel; naturally have not received any response whatsoever.

Local model RR store warned me, too, to check my 21" Lionel passenger cars.  Apparently the trucks on many of these as well as the zinc rectangular piece under the cars are potentially affected.  

Robert D posted:

Opened my Green/Solid Stripe JLC GG1 as I'm checking everything getting packed for a home move, and found zinc rot.  Frames still hold together, though are bowed outward.  The backs of the frames swelled to the point where they touch and bind.  My solution so far is to carefully dremel-sand off paint from the inside portions of each frame to reveal raw metal then cover these areas with epoxy.  Won't keep outside portions from flaking off, but may keep the frames generally intact.  

Sent an email off to Lionel; naturally have not received any response whatsoever.

Local model RR store warned me, too, to check my 21" Lionel passenger cars.  Apparently the trucks on many of these as well as the zinc rectangular piece under the cars are potentially affected.  

And when you do receive a reply from Lionel, they'll tell you there are no replacement parts available.  *Ask me how I know*.   Further, by all indications, there are absolutely NO replacement power truck side frames anywhere on this planet and there are no plans to produce any in the foreseeable future.  So, if you have a GG-1 with "Zinc Pest" eating away at your "Powered Truck Side Frame with Pilot", it seems that you are just plain out of luck.   BTW, the Lionel part number is: 610-8354-035.  *I know because I have the same problem with my JLC GG-1* 

Chief Bob (Retired)

Thanks Chief Bob.  I figured it was futile to contact Lionel, but at least I know I'm not a lonely voice out in the wilderness on this one.  One would think a company that MSRP's these trains at $1000 +/- might engage in some customer service to assure we keep coming back for more product.  Given the problems I've discovered in the collection as I prepare for the move, more zinc rot in some box cars for example, I'm going to refocus on my N-scale model railroading and stop buying O-gauge.  I'll likely trade or sell more of my O-gauge to thin it out for the home move than I originally planned to.  Doing so will save space and heartache when in a couple years I open up a box to find disintegrated crumbled parts. 

That JLC GG-1 was a beauty - it was the reason I picked up the Broadway Limited cars to run behind it.  So if it ends up in the dumpster, why keep the 21" cars to go with it?  

FYI, we are in the early phases of exploring the options of casting some of these.  No word yet if it's practical, but that appears to be the only way they'll ever be available again.

To GRJ: if this becomes a reality, you can put me down for several sets as I have 3 of these GG1's. No zinc rot yet that I am aware of but would like to be prepared.

Theo posted:

To GRJ: if this becomes a reality, you can put me down for several sets as I have 3 of these GG1's. No zinc rot yet that I am aware of but would like to be prepared.

Please count me in as well. I am in the same boat (no rot - yet - on my JLC Tuscan) and would like to be on the safe side in terms of replacement parts.

Still early in the discussion stages of how it could be done at a reasonable cost.  Obviously, having standard diecast tooling made is a non-starter!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

FYI, we are in the early phases of exploring the options of casting some of these.  No word yet if it's practical, but that appears to be the only way they'll ever be available again.

John,

Your track record of producing products that are relevant to the hobby is impeccable.   That being said, please consider this an order for TWO JLC GG-1 powered truck side frames with pilot if your plans make it to fruition.   Good luck and thank you!   

 Chief Bob (Retired)

I am most likely repeating myself.

There are lots of investment casting businesses in the US.  Even your dentist does it.  Take a reasonably good set of sideframes and make a non-shrinking mold.  Then make waxes and have new sideframes in lifetime brass.

Jay C is a participant on the 2-rail side, and is an expert in this area - all you need is a complete set of relatively undamaged sideframes and some postage - and a reasonable pile of $ for the work.  Ask him nicely.

Jay helped me with the nose of my Erie-built Diesel, and it turned out beautifully.

Lionel could do this for you - for a price.  Maybe they could split the cost?

This is not rocket science - it is a technique thousands of years old.  Lionel wouldn't have to lift a finger - except for packing up a set for reproduction.

There are cheaper ways - pewter, or even plastic.  But brass is elegant, and does not have zinc pest.

By the by - I had zinc pest in some of my childhood models, stored in a box for 50 years.  They were ancient Varney HO box cars, and kind of cute.  So I took a die cast underframe, straightened it, and sent it to my friend Bob Stevenson, of Stevenson Preservation Lines.  He did just what I suggested for you - he made a mold and cast me some replacements.  

The photo below is one of the rejects - the floor is really thin, and you can see the metal did not flow.  Still, it is a thing of great beauty, replacing a twisted and crumbling die cast part.  I re-equipped half my fleet with these.  I would not hesitate to do the same with GG1 trucks, although I suspect Lionel now would be motivated to do it . . .

Short of finding or having a good piece for someone to cast a replacement replica. I have found that filling the cracks with super thin CA seems to stabilize these poor castings fairly well.  CA is hygroscopic, it seeks out and binds with water molecules this helps to shut the electrolysis down. Not a perfect solution but one for the moment.          j

There are replacements for hi fi Sansui receiver (1976) ball socket AM antenna mounts as the original ones break easily.  They are molded from plastic and of a simple design and have sold for over 15 years for $12.  Making a mold for the Lionel / Kline GG1 side frames would be much more difficult to make but is the ultimate solution that will never happen.

I have just inspected my K-line GG1 bought when first issued in 2002.  It developed a warped side frame after a few years and I was able to buy one from Lionel that fit perfectly at the time.  K-line must have copied Lionel very well.  The inspection showed two side frames straight and in good shape.  The other two side frames show some minor warping, at least 1/32 inch or maybe more.  These side frames anchor the needle bearings of the wheel axles and are critical to the operation of the lead and following trucks.

If or when my side frames warp enough or crumble and fail and none are available, I would attempt to make one or two.  I would use 3/4 or 1 inch aluminum angle and cut to replace the side frame.  An all plastic side frame probably would not be strong enough to hold the wheel bearing.   I would rig up a hole or use the bearing part of the old side frame and JB weld to hold the wheel bearings in.  Then I would find a piece of 1/8 inch plastic sheet and make a cover for the outside of the side frame.  I would then use a Dremel Moto tool and small cutting bits to attempt to carve out some plastic to look similar to the original side frame and paint it semi gloss black. 

From a small distance the new side frames will not be noticed by most especially if two new ones were on one side.  I am an operator and would accept this type of fix and know many other would not.  But at least I would be able to still run my GG1.

Charlie

I'd buy replacements if offered for the JLC GG1.  Some small bits are snapping off as I sand and prep the existing frames for epoxy application; fortunately the frame I'm currently working on is holding together, though the screw mounts were iffy.  Hopefully the second frame too will hold together, but it exhibits more severe cracking at the mount points than the first one I removed.

With all the possible issurs with zinc, why is it still being ised in 3R train products?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

With all the possible issurs with zinc, why is it still being ised in 3R train products?

Because it doesn't seem to negatively impact sales?

-Dave

I think the zinc is an impurity, not intentional.

NEVER say NEVER. There is a way.

Laser sintered metal products. 

Scan a good part into math data

Digitize it 

Laser cut metal parts are made in process that stacks powder metal and cuts it to a fraction of a millimeter for products such as knee cap replacement surgery, gears, clutches, automotive castings, brackets, etc...

Cost is coming down rapidly... 5 grand set up and about 100.00 a piece.

Key is to get all the orders you can and set up and run them...

bob2 posted:

I am most likely repeating myself.

There are lots of investment casting businesses in the US.  Even your dentist does it.  Take a reasonably good set of sideframes and make a non-shrinking mold.  Then make waxes and have new sideframes in lifetime brass.

Jay C is a participant on the 2-rail side, and is an expert in this area - all you need is a complete set of relatively undamaged sideframes and some postage - and a reasonable pile of $ for the work.  Ask him nicely.

My concern is how big a pile of money is required, and what the part cost ends up being.  If they're $200/ea, it's pointless to proceed.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

My concern is how big a pile of money is required, and what the part cost ends up being.  If they're $200/ea, it's pointless to proceed.

I recently paid $100 each for four side frames from a forum member to put on my two JLC GG1's.  It seemed to beat the alternative of being stuck with two $400 paperweights that would really only be good for the trash can otherwise.  I'd gladly pay the same for another two sets of new ones to ensure that the issue won't come back again.  I know I can't speak for everybody, but there is a certain level of supply and demand pricing with these.

I think that $100 is kind of the upper limit for these.  And you have to amortize the setup across all the units, if you make 20 of them, that would probably be substantial.

Can't understand why Lionel won't step up and make replacement truck sides available. Would be a tremendous good-faith, good-will gesture.

Hal

Why don't they cast in other materials like pewter? I see cups from years ago made of this and they don't look like what we see with this rot plague. I am surprised a hobbyist doesn't cast these parts at home or plastic. Would Lionel go after people for selling home made trucks because they wont be making a dime? 

I don’t own one of these GG1 models, but I can surely relate to the frustration. Just a suggestion, and I don’t know if this would even fly or not. Maybe try contacting North West Shortline and see if they might be interested in casting these parts. This is their field of expertise. Perhaps if the owners of these models could figure out to how to get together as a group, the project could become reality. The new owners of NWSL are super nice, and they seem very eager to get orders going in a prompt and efficient manner.....and they actually answer the phone!....might be worth a call at least....what’s the worst they can say?..no?.................Pat

Pat

I agree with everything you said about NWSL...but the owner is closing up shop, so I'd guess that's not an option at this time...

Mark in Oregon

HMS2035 posted:

Can't understand why Lionel won't step up and make replacement truck sides available. Would be a tremendous good-faith, good-will gesture.

Same reason they don't follow a lot of our suggestions.

Strummer posted:

Pat

I agree with everything you said about NWSL...but the owner is closing up shop, so I'd guess that's not an option at this time...

Mark in Oregon

Bummer, I hears about this several months ago, sadly it seems to be true: Model Railroading > NorthWest Short Line NWSL closing

I recently paid $100 each for four side frames from a forum member to put on my two JLC GG1's. It seemed to beat the alternative of being stuck with two $400 paperweights that would really only be good for the trash can otherwise. I'd gladly pay the same for another two sets of new ones to ensure that the issue won't come back again. 

I believe a brass repro sideframe would be closer to $60 in quantities of one.  I may be a bit dated on price, but half the expense is making the mold.  Once that is made, the castings are relatively easy.

Assuming for a minute that there are only two main sideframe variants (a right and a left) you ought to be able to get the four main castings for around $200.  Less if several of you went in together.

As far as I know, the new NWSL could only do a softer plastic casting.  The original NWSL had graduated to a glass-filled plastic.  I would not cheapen a good model locomotive with either plastic or pewter.

Give Lionel another six months, then step up and protect your investment.  Again, this is easily done in the USA.  There are lots of competent foundries that do this stuff.

How about a name of a couple of these competent foundries?  Since you're obviously more well versed in this topic than most of us, care to take on this project?

FWIW, I "think" there's only one frame design, they use identical frames for front and rear.

I also have great empathy for all those who are affected, and agree with many comments on this thread.

Someday I believe 3D printing will resolve most issues like this.  The sideframes are decorative and not structural, right?  So they could even be made out of plastic (gasp!)  If Harry Henning is making new replacement parts for standard gauge trains that are 100 years old, I'm pretty sure that someone will step up and make replacement parts for expensive trains that are 10 years old.

Sadly, the side frames are structural, they support a lot of stuff.  They will have to be of something stronger and more dimensionally stable than plastic I suspect.

GRJ photo shows the truck frames in question, item #55.  As he said they are identical.  I changed out four of them on my green solid stripe and silver GG1.  My other four JLC GG1s did not exhibit zinc rot.

Here are pictures of the truck frame that is susceptible to zinc rot.  I removed other components that attach to the frame and as far as I know those components are OK all the way around.

The item in the photos, while highly detailed, would be the only thing necessary to be replaced.  Notice the obvious bow in the top side, top photo.

those images capture what my GG1 side frames look like, except the outward bowing is not as pronounced

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Strummer posted:

Pat

I agree with everything you said about NWSL...but the owner is closing up shop, so I'd guess that's not an option at this time...

Mark in Oregon

Bummer, I hears about this several months ago, sadly it seems to be true: Model Railroading > NorthWest Short Line NWSL closing

My mistake fellas, I had a senior moment...I was thinking of Precision Scale, not NWSL.....perhaps they might can help....they’re the ones under new ownership...the new owners seem eager to help their customers........I totally made a mistake.......don’t get old....it sucks!...........Pat

How about a name of a couple of these competent foundries? Since you're obviously more well versed in this topic than most of us, care to take on this project?

Sure.  Valley Brass in California, and Stevenson Preservation Models.  Also probably Precision Scale and maybe Weisman, in Cynthiana.

And sure - I would take on the project.  I would need a left and a right.  Bowed is ok, and maybe even good, because the swelling would offset the shrink.  The vulcanizing process may explode the castings, so don't expect to get them back.  They would have to be in one piece, of course - not broken or falling apart.

I might need a few bucks for shipping, both to and from the foundry, and back to the owner if the price is too high.  I am betting that for, say, ten sets the cost will be way, way under the $100 each you guys are paying for zamac that may or may not explode.  I will not be involved in any profit-making scheme, but if any of you are entrepreneurs, seems like this is an opportunity.  How many do you suppose would be needed?  Do you think Lionel would be interesed in a quantity buy?

Oh, and remember, even though lost wax is quite good, a little light machining will probably be needed.

Maybe if you could cast in different types of metals such as aluminum or pewter would be so much better than what the original model was made with. I think there would be a buying of at least a hundred pairs of these frames. If people out there would see how they came I believe they would sell out quick. On OGR here you would find other models that you could reproduce a special part of. The GG1 is loved by many people and there are hundreds of these defective models out there. Some of these GG'1 may have been packed for years and people don't know until they go through there items to see. If you have this online like other vendors have you would see the items leave your hands. I have a Lionel GG1 packed and really don't want to see if I have the same problem as everyone else. I have about 15 MTH GG1's on the shelf that are good with no problems. If these were about $100 to $150 I would buy a set to put with the model just in case. I know the old Bachmann HO Metroliners had the same zink problem too. I cast a good frame with plastic and it worked great, just had to add a little extra weight.

I forwarded this thread to a friend and he is interested if the project goes through.

Nobody took me up on it.  I did no further research after the thread died.

Something about ripping my perfectly good JLC GG-1 and destroy the one part that is no longer available put me off.  If I had one or more with the bad sideframes, I'd probably have a different viewpoint.

I didn't ask for a good one - I asked for a swollen or bent one that was not yet fractured.  Well, one of each, assuming there was a left and a right.

Bob2,

This particular part for the JLC GG-1 is unlike the "Traditional" GG-1 which, I believe, has two separate side frames which attach on either side with machine screws.  The JLC GG-1 side frame is actually a 1 piece frame (as seen in the previous post) with the pilot attached.  Unfortunately, the Lionel WEB site is down because of them moving, but the correct part number is: 610-8354-035 if you care to check when they are up and running again.  I would be more than willing to go $100.00 each and I would be in for 2 for sure.  I currently have one that I purchased form S&W Parts Supply which might be used as a pattern.  Hit my email and we can discuss the possible options regarding production of new frames.

Chief Bob (Retired)

bob2 posted:

I didn't ask for a good one - I asked for a swollen or bent one that was not yet fractured.  Well, one of each, assuming there was a left and a right.

Correct, but all I have is one of the JLC models, and mine has good sideframes.  There is only one frame, the front and back ones are identical.

That large a frame will be more than $100.  Probably way more.  It may be time to re-think this.  House of Duddy made the Ed Alexander GG1 for years, and in its final iteration it used Bill Wolfer's excellent trucks.  The patterns and molds still exist.  

It is sprung, with axles supported by the journal boxes.  It is possible it could be adapted to the Lionel scheme.

Best I can do is post photos of that frame and ask around.  Give me a day or two.  If Lionel steps up, they could conceivably go that route.  Better to have LA Die Casting make a production run out of good zamac.

Way more than $100 would make this a moot point.  At that price point, you might as well simply buy a different GG-1.

I'm not holding my breath for Lionel to step up, we haven't heard a peep so far.  That would be the right thing to do...

Shurlock1, don’t single Lionel out, all the mfrs are guilty of relying on overseas manufacturing and also of being snake bit by the lack of quality in castings. MTH has plenty of locos affected also, I’m sure there are some parts they are not able to provide. It sucks but it is reality.

I understand. it's that we are talking about this model loco and this shouldn't happen I don't care even if some of the people say it's a toy train.