lionel JLC GG1 sideframes zinc rot

"However, bearing in mind that moisture is the activator, reducing it is going to help slow down, or even prevent the curse."

If moisture is the activator of the zinc rot, wouldn't completely painting a part prevent moisture from reaching the underlying metal?  I suppose that this would mean that the manufacturers would have to take the extra step of dipping parts in a primer or some other kind of paint undercoat.  

NH Joe

RoyBoy posted:
Lionel Parts posted:

I have a 18372 green single stripe that the side frames crumbled completely apart . I am converting it to use Williams trucks. that way I can still use it and it will run on 042 radius track.

Where are you getting the Williams parts? They have a sale on parts right now, but it still looks like a few hundred dollars in parts. Complete Williams scale GG1's are advertised for around $400-$500 or so on eBay.

$500 is an insane price for the Williams GG1!  I bought the one I upgraded to TMCC for $120 at York a few years ago.  I can't believe they're worth four times that now!  I have a lot less than $500 total in mine, including all the upgrades.

Williams Scale GG1 TMCC Upgrade

RoyBoy posted:
Notch 6 posted:

I've handled 15 to 20 JLC GG1's in the past five or so years. The only ones I recall seeing is the silver with the solid tuscan stripe. This has led me to believe that it was primarily that run that was affected. I'd like to hear if it was any other colors. 

Mine is green single stripe.

Lionel did two maybe three runs of the JLC GG1 over 1 to 2 years..   My Tuscan 5 stripe is from the second run, the same run as the silver GG1 I believe.  Thankfully no problems yet with mine.  But,  knowing I have no use or tolerance for high priced crap production, the GG1 like the beautiful JLC Allegheny H8 I loved but sadly sold off that did suffer extensive zinc rot will be on the sell list shortly.

I can't think of a more frustrating and depressing moment for me, probably anyone who buys these things then when one suddenly finds irreparable zinc rot on a beautiful & expensive model. 

joe

 

 

gunrunnerjohn posted:
RoyBoy posted:
Lionel Parts posted:

I have a 18372 green single stripe that the side frames crumbled completely apart . I am converting it to use Williams trucks. that way I can still use it and it will run on 042 radius track.

Where are you getting the Williams parts? They have a sale on parts right now, but it still looks like a few hundred dollars in parts. Complete Williams scale GG1's are advertised for around $400-$500 or so on eBay.

$500 is an insane price for the Williams GG1!  I bought the one I upgraded to TMCC for $120 at York a few years ago.  I can't believe they're worth four times that now!  I have a lot less than $500 total in mine, including all the upgrades.

Williams Scale GG1 TMCC Upgrade

I agree completely with that. The problem is probably that they have not made another batch of them for several years. Google shows them for $169 at Trainworld, but that appears to be an old, long out of print ad.

It looks like your GG1 upgrade was six years ago.

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

RoyBoy

Some folks have cured this problem.  LA Die Casting has been making restaurant supplies out of die cast for over a half century that I know of.  Door handles on Fords are all die cast, and suffer incredible abuse.

I like good die cast trains - but now I am on the alert - how do you know the GG1 body won't blossom forth in short order?

My 700-series Lionel models are older than I am, and so far no blossoming.  Same with recent MTH.  

But your fix, unless Lionel steps up to the plate, is lost-wax brass repros.  It can be done with less than 1% shrinkage if you go to the right foundry.

It "may" be easier to use the chassis as well, I don't know if the Williams and Lionel truck mounts will be similar enough to use the Lionel chassis.

Unfortunately, "zinc rot" is but one hazard of offshore (especially Communist country) sourcing.  It comes as I understand it from manufacturing workers who might not even understand the effects of their sloppy work, if they care.  Probably most have never HAD a hobby, except trying to feed and support their family while avoiding their government.  

In the case of zinc rot- I understand it happens when non-specified metals get poured in as fillers in the zinc manufacturing practice.  The resulting metal alloys are more subject to deterioration.

The importers (Lionel, Atlas, MTH etc.) are relatively small companies.  Where GM can afford to have on-site Quality Control (QC) people stationed IN China, not so with these smaller companies.  So- they have to rely on locals to provide QC.  Maybe there are not enough QC people provided by the manufacturer?  Maybe the Chinese QC people are also not properly motivated as they might be here in the USA?

Then (again as I understand it) the Chinese government owns the controlling share of all the tools of production- including of making the parts and assembling the product.  Those tools of production are not generally ever released to be removed from China, so the importer (Lionel, MTH etc.) is a captive customer.  They may have a $200,000 piece of tooling that makes maybe $ 20,000 a year of product, that they cannot send to a more reliable manufacturer anywhere, but in China.

Even worse, (again as I understand it) the Chinese will not supply parts since they are suspicious that their customer might start assembling in the USA, and competing with them.  So- parts are scarce to FIX these issues when they occur.

When a USA (or other Western) manufacturer contracts w/ companies in China, they get in bed with the Devil.  Not really the importers' fault- the root cause is OUR fault for demanding cheap goods.  

Maybe that's why Postwar??

Just my opinion, not expert by any means.  But an experienced business mind at work.  

Mike Wyatt posted:
When a USA (or other Western) manufacturer contracts w/ companies in China, they get in bed with the Devil.  Not really the importers' fault- the root cause is OUR fault for demanding cheap goods.  

Mostly true, but there's one issue here.  Cheap goods?  I think NOT.  The stuff is expensive!

"However, bearing in mind that moisture is the activator, reducing it is going to help slow down, or even prevent the curse."

Not quite correct. Moisture is an accelerant, or a catalyst. Lack of moisture will NOT prevent the degradation from occurring, but rather just slow it down. The culprit is the impurity level in the raw alloy, specifically lead. Too much lead and the time bomb starts ticking. There is no shut off switch.

Chris

LVHR

MAYBE they are expensive.  But a locomotive selling for $30 (about average) in 1950, would be in 2019 dollars:  

$ 314.66

 
Hmmmm about the price of a Lion Chief Plus today.  
The real question- how much might we be willing to pay for THAT LC+ IF it were made in the USA??  + 20%??  Plus 30%??  Really- we should not have to pay ANYTHING more for a locomotive or any other product simply and only because it is Made in the USA. 
 
So could Lionel or MTH or anyone make a product in the USA at a comparable price, and lessen the poor/erratic quality found in products made by Chinese contractors?  I think we could, but....
 
The secondary and maybe "deal breaker" issues are:
- the tooling is generally NOT going to come back, and would have to be replaced in the USA.  I understand that a set of tooling starts around $ 200K.  And, most of the tooling being used already (and residing in China) might be nowhere near worn out and needing replacement anyway.
- more on tooling: what would stop the Chinese from simply using that tooling to compete with the USA companies??  Nothing. 
- The Chinese would simply start using the tooling paid for by Lionel (and others) to make copy products to sell, and using government money, undercut the pricing by whatever it took.  They are not subject to our laws, and ignore international law.  And this train market is very limited, anyway (compared to, say telephones or I Pads.) 
 
-  probable Chinese Government support- It wouldn't take much Chinese government money to take all or almost all of the business, at, say -50% pricing.  But, no problem, if they needed -75% pricing the government could easily do that.  -80%?  -90%?  No problem, whatever it takes.
 
As I said before: "... get in bed with the Devil", and you are vulnerable.
 

It's quite possible that trains could become even cheaper in the future and replacement parts could be easier to make. With the advent of 3D printing we may be past tooling that only makes one item. Items could be made on demand. The next 20 years could be very interesting in manufacturing.

But that doesn't really help anyone now.

Santa Fe, All the Way

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