Lionel Legacy 990 control

BWH was referring to legacy 990 controller

They quit making them due to lack of parts. Apps are the future.

FWIW Lionel stopped repairing the Bases, but still may be repairing the CAB-2

You may want to refer to TMCC/Legacy forum a lot of info there about the situation, some of it is even accurate.

It's been a couple of years or more since these sets were routinely available.  Now only available on the secondary market at multiples of the original MSRP in most cases.  Perhaps you knew that.  The pandemic and supply chain problems have delayed the new replacement, the Base 3, probably until late Summer 2024 (currently projected as August).  The Base 3 will respond to the cab-2 (no longer made), the cab-3 app (to be released in August as well), and the cab-1L (still in production).  If you are buying only recent Lionel locos, such as all LionChief, Legacy (with Bluetooth), LionChief + 2.0, you can use the Universal Remote to control these, which is sufficient for some folks at minimal cost (no command base needed).

@cbojanower posted:

They quit making them due to lack of parts. Apps are the future.

FWIW Lionel stopped repairing the Bases, but still may be repairing the CAB-2

You may want to refer to TMCC/Legacy forum a lot of info there about the situation, some of it is even accurate.

They stopped making them by choice, plenty of parts/upgraded available they just chose to obsolete them; just like many other control/TMCC/Legacy/Vision Line boards.

"They stopped making them by choice"

Not that it changes anything, but that would have been an obviously foolish decision, shooting one's self in the foot.  I don't think Lionel's leadership is that foolish.  Sometimes stuff happens that causes huge problems, and is outside anyone's control.  That's a much more likely explanation.  Particularly since almost exactly the same thing happened at MTH,  regarding the TIU and DCS handheld,  at precisely the same time.  Regardless, Lionel, MTH and their customers have to deal with the reality, however unpleasant.

Finding someone to blame is always attractive but of course,  usually achieves nothing.

@ThatGuy posted:

They stopped making them by choice, plenty of parts/upgraded available they just chose to obsolete them; just like many other control/TMCC/Legacy/Vision Line boards.

Dave Olson has come on this forum and explained the parts issues with making a Cab2 and Legacy Base.  While this doesn't mean they won't make a new remote in the future, Dave also said that, their focus is on the App.  Until then Lionel still sells the Cab1L.  Yes it's unfortunate that the Legacy system was taken out of production earlier than they anticipated and the Base3 was delayed longer than they hoped but things happen which are out of their control.

MTH has had the same issues. 

does "that guy" ever post anything that isn't negative. Not sure why he would run lionel trains he has nothing but bad things to say about them

Lionel made 990 & 993 sets for years!  There are plenty of them out there if you really, really, really don't want to use the app.

Yes, they are expensive, but if that's your biggest concern, then just bite the bullet, buy one and you will be set.

Or even better just buy a CAB 1-L remote to go with the Base 3, brand new, which they still make.  Problem solved.   The app looks pretty sweet to me, so I always give something a try first before saying anything against it.

Either way you do have choices.   If you are willing to pay 1000's for a Legacy engine, then plunking down 800.00 or so for a Legacy system should be no problem, lol.

@MartyE posted:

Dave Olson has come on this forum and explained the parts issues with making a Cab2 and Legacy Base.  While this doesn't mean they won't make a new remote in the future, Dave also said that, their focus is on the App.  Until then Lionel still sells the Cab1L.  Yes it's unfortunate that the Legacy system was taken out of production earlier than they anticipated and the Base3 was delayed longer than they hoped but things happen which are out of their control.

MTH has had the same issues.

I would like to give you a little background on this on why I posted what I did, we took apart a cab 2 made a complete list of all the electronics inside the unit. We then went out to the suppliers to see what was available and what would need to be upgraded. Lionel is being truthful. Some parts are obsolete, but there are replacements, such as instead of a monochrome touch panel it would be color. We wrote a letter to Lionel asking them if we could license to make Cab 2   units. We were met by crickets. It is not unfortunate that a locomotive that cost thousands of dollars was obsoleted less than three years. I wonder if you would feel that way if you owned one of those paperweights.

@Landsteiner posted:

"They stopped making them by choice"

Not that it changes anything, but that would have been an obviously foolish decision, shooting one's self in the foot.  I don't think Lionel's leadership is that foolish.  Sometimes stuff happens that causes huge problems, and is outside anyone's control.  That's a much more likely explanation.  Particularly since almost exactly the same thing happened at MTH,  regarding the TIU and DCS handheld,  at precisely the same time.  Regardless, Lionel, MTH and their customers have to deal with the reality, however unpleasant.

Finding someone to blame is always attractive but of course,  usually achieves nothing.

They stopped making them because they made a decision to walk away from that product. The parts to repair them were upgradable they could no longer use the cheapest parts on the table. They now are going to have to buy an upgraded part. it’s funny how we believe parts are obsolete. You can’t get it anymore. They’re not available yet if we go to a different part of a hobby they have locomotives with electronics well over 20 years old if you contact the manufacturer, you may get a response that board is no longer available but let us sell you the upgraded board to keep that engine running. That’s the issue.

i love my trains, i just hate to see manufacturers tell ghost stories, it all comes down to this {do you want to pay for the newer version} and they do not.

one other thing, I deal in China all the time having electronics manufactured. In China, there are three levels of manufacturing the A and B level, and then the C level. You pick the A-level you get full testing of every product before it is shipped out, a much higher grade of electronics and as electronics come out the upgrades are automatically installed. At the B level you get spot checks and options on upgrades. At the C level they are built and shipped, no testing at all and when parts run out ( an upgraded part is now the replacement) no option for the upgrade you get what you paid for, hence engines with wires off and boards obsoleted in 3 years.                    
‘This give me no joy to post or talk about as I own a large amount of Lionel obsolete trains now.

@Ohio Jeff posted:

does "that guy" ever post anything that isn't negative. Not sure why he would run lionel trains he has nothing but bad things to say about them

In stead of making bad assumptions go look at my posts Subway trains and upgrades and help videos…….then come back and talk.

I still don't understand why Lionel wouldn't license out the Legacy protocol for 3rd parties who wish to develop and implement their own controllers and handsets.  This seems like a no-brainer to me with zero downside for them especially if they've already made the decision to discontinue the CAB-2 handheld and get out of this part of the hardware business.

And let me upload my own sounds!  Not sure why this is forbidden other than to force people to buy certain boards.  The puny whistle on the new VisionLine Big Boy is yet another example of why this functionality is urgently needed.

@BlueFeather posted:

I still don't understand why Lionel wouldn't license out the Legacy protocol for 3rd parties who wish to develop and implement their own controllers and handsets.  This seems like a no-brainer to me with zero downside for them especially if they've already made the decision to discontinue the CAB-2 handheld and get out of this part of the hardware business.

Well, they actually have released some of the data, have you looked at the LCS Partner Program?  There's actually nothing to prevent someone from creating a remote that uses that interface information, but it hasn't happened.

@BlueFeather posted:

And let me upload my own sounds!  Not sure why this is forbidden other than to force people to buy certain boards.  The puny whistle on the new VisionLine Big Boy is yet another example of why this functionality is urgently needed.

Allowing you to change sounds and other operational features would require a complete redesign of the Legacy and Railsounds boards, not to mention releasing all the details about the internal architecture.  That's not going to happen, certainly in my lifetime!

The boards are currently programmable, but obviously only by the factory.  It requires you to connect to the programming port that is present on the RS-Lite, RCMC, and the new LCP boards with the programming adapter.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, they actually have released some of the data, have you looked at the LCS Partner Program?  There's actually nothing to prevent someone from creating a remote that uses that interface information, but it hasn't happened.

Nice -- they are further along than I thought.  I notice though that on this page:

https://control.lionel.com/docs/lcs-partner-program/

The link to the actual Legacy protocol doesn't work.  Now, I'm not going to download it and build my own hardware controller, but it would be nice to know that it has in fact actually been released.  Anyone got a live link to the doc?

Allowing you to change sounds and other operational features would require a complete redesign of the Legacy and Railsounds boards, not to mention releasing all the details about the internal architecture.  That's not going to happen, certainly in my lifetime!

In this case I really only care about changing sounds and fixing stuff like the Big Boy's whistle.

The boards are currently programmable, but obviously only by the factory.  It requires you to connect to the programming port that is present on the RS-Lite, RCMC, and the new LCP boards with the programming adapter.

So sounds are locked down by design.  Can't imagine how that would ever be considered a beneficial system for the user. 

I have the current document, but you have to signup to be a "partner", and also sign an NDA.

Yep, Lionel isn't interested in allowing the end user to load software on their products.  You'd have to ask Lionel what drives that stance, but I doubt it's going to change.

Re: Anyone got a live link to the doc?

Lionel LCS Partner Documentation — Doc rev 1.21
Legacy Command Protocol
© 1995-­‐2014 Lionel LLC

A copy is saved on the Forum.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...tocol-Spec-v1.21.pdf

Lionel uses the "LEGACY (0xFB) FIXED 3 Word command format" extensions to add commands related to new Legacy features.  I expect the index tables to be updated if and when a revision to the protocol document is published.

4-digit address communications is a big unknown.  Perhaps Lionel will add a TMCC3 protocol section.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, they actually have released some of the data, have you looked at the LCS Partner Program?  There's actually nothing to prevent someone from creating a remote that uses that interface information, but it hasn't happened.

Allowing you to change sounds and other operational features would require a complete redesign of the Legacy and Railsounds boards, not to mention releasing all the details about the internal architecture.  That's not going to happen, certainly in my lifetime!

The boards are currently programmable, but obviously only by the factory.  It requires you to connect to the programming port that is present on the RS-Lite, RCMC, and the new LCP boards with the programming adapter.

John, Lionel does not want anything to do with older technology only sell you new. When we contacted them we laid out how we thought we should proceed. No response, anyone can build a remote we wanted it to control it all and full backwards compatibility. They have zero interest, it’s new new new. As for the app I have an apple I pad pro/I phone max. I think they. Do not lend to operating since many times I am working on my layout and a dedicated remote is much easier.

Well, it's hard to argue against the fact that Lionel wants to sell new stuff.   If anyone can indeed build a remote, there must be a reason nobody is doing it.  My guess is the ROI isn't perceived to be there for such a project.

Who wants to bet that once the Base3 is out parts and service for the 990 will vanish?

@feet posted:

Who wants to bet that once the Base3 is out parts and service for the 990 will vanish?

I believe that's already started to happen.

@RickO posted:

I believe that's already started to happen.

I was afraid of that.

@feet posted:

I was afraid of that.

Yes they no longer service the Legacy Base due to lack of parts is what we were told.  They still service Cab2s as of now.  I'm sure when that parts well runs dry they'll stop with them.  It is inevitable. Mine is over 14 years old and has never needed service other than the first upgrade years ago.  I treat it with kid gloves.  Things happen though so I consider myself fortunate.  I understand the frustration but there is little we can do about it.  The parts most likely came from when they manufactured a run of Legacy systems.  Since they are no longer in production the parts will run dry.

Someone mentioned they sourced all the parts.  Perhaps they can help you if if you need a repair.

I do think we need to remember that Lionel has been repairing these free of charge almost since it's inception.  Pretty smart as they know you sell more trains with a working system, and generous even if it does serve them well to do so.

Can I buy a new Cab1L,  plug it into an old Trainmaster, then link it with a Y cable to the Legacy base, will have a system that will do the basics? I will miss the screen telling me where I am and what I’m about to do. The was the best feature of the 990 controller.

The Cab1L can already talk to the BASE2 & BASE3 without the TMCC BASE. The CAB1L cannot communicate directly with a TMCC BASE.

And I assume they are still on the market? ( I’m afraid to ask)

The CAB1L is still on the market.  The BASE1L is no longer available, and neither the CAB2 or the Legacy BASE2 are available either.  The BASE3 has not yet shipped, latest word is August.  So, there currently is no Lionel command system base station currently being produced.

Thanks for your input. I have the Legacy base is this the base 2 your referring to?

Yes, if you have the Legacy base, the CAB1L works fine with it, I use them here all the time.

Correct, the Legacy Base is also known as the BASE2.

Thanks to everyone, I was just about to give up.

Silly question perhaps - Will the Cab1L work with the Lionel wifi and a brick without a base?

@c.sam posted:

Silly question perhaps - Will the Cab1L work with the Lionel wifi and a brick without a base?

Nope, it only talks to the BASE1L, BASE2, or the upcoming BASE3.

For a novice just coming into the hobby and wanting to operate his new Legacy Vision BigBoy, what does he (or she) need to purchase to run the locomotive including a power supply?   Tongue in cheek!

It's been a little confusing 'transitioning' from older remote control equipment.  :-)

c.sam,

I think the best (IMO) answer to your question is:

1 Cab1L,

1. Base1L or Base2 (both only found on secondary market, if available)

1. Powerhouse 180 (PH180) (may only be available on secondary market).

Chuck

Until the Base3 ships, Bluetooth control would be my choice.  It doesn't support the full Legacy/Vision feature set, but it works without investing in unobtainium gear.  Supply 18v from a PowerHouse, connect to the loco with the app, and have fun.  The Lionchief app works on old iPads (not expensive) if you don't have a Apple device.

@Tracker John posted:

Until the Base3 ships, Bluetooth control would be my choice.  It doesn't support the full Legacy/Vision feature set, but it works without investing in unobtainium gear.  Supply 18v from a PowerHouse, connect to the loco with the app, and have fun.  The Lionchief app works on old iPads (not expensive) if you don't have a Apple device.

The Lionchief App works on Android phones as well.