Lionel TMCC locomotive sounds not working properly operating conventionally with a Z-1000 transformer

Programming has nothing to do with it.

Simply put, there are limitation of conventional control. You are varying the AC voltage on the track and then using DC offset modifications of that AC waveform and hoping- praying, your locomotive can differentiate and identify when you are sending a bell or whistle command.

Normally I find the MTH Z1000 a good test transformer and use on on my workbench for testing. However, that does not mean it universally is going to be sensed by all locos ever made. Worse, just because you say Z1000- that's the 18V brick, and while they were sold as sets, there are different versions of the Z controller electronics and those changes are NOT obvious externally and could slightly affect DC or AC waveforms through various stages of operation. Again, MTH kept the same name over a very long period of time, but that is not to say all Z controllers over that time are the same.

Simply put, when in neutral, there is a different load on the track and output VS under load with the motor moving.

You appear to have found one such incompatible situation.

Again, you have a bulk of locos that work, you have one now that does not work, but it also is a Legacy 6-11XXXX series, and so there are minor differences in it's internal electronics and it might not sense the DC offsets for horn and bell commands the same as some other engines in conventional. Further- again load at a given time can also affect this sensing. So neutral vs moving is not unheard of for there to be a difference. Also lighted passenger cars and other things load the track differently and can affect this situation.

Thank you so much for the informative reply!  I suspected the problem had something to do with the signal from my conventional transformer. (Which has worked perfectly well with Lionchief, Lionchief + and conventional locomotives.) I did have a string of lighted passenger cars on the track when testing the TMCC locomotive.  I will remove them and see what happens.  BTW I have been tempted to take a step toward digital control by getting the Trainmaster Command set but the price even for used CAB-1 sets is a bit steep for my small layout.   I guess the solution for me is to sell the TMCC locomotive and stick with LionChief for remote operation.

Just to make sure I'm thorough in the answers:

"Does it need to be reprogrammed, and is that possible with a conventional transformer?"

#1 A TMCC or Legacy Lionel engine- can only be reprogrammed or reset using TMCC or Legacy. There is no "command sequence" of whistle and or bell under conventional control that would "program" or "reset". It's a 2 part thing. Generally, the failures or symptoms listed in this topic (speed doesn't match diesel RPM, unable to sense bell/horn in moving state vs neutral) is not a symptom of "programming" or need of some reset, however, even if a reset or setting was required, the system is such that that setting and or a reset requires command control to reset it, and typically cannot be done by a conventional transformer.

"I tried adding a 9v battery and the horn and bell do not work even in neutral with that!"

#2 Understanding why and what a 9V battery even does- kinda important. On a Lionel engine, the purpose of the battery is simply to provide power to the railsounds- typically during conventional operation so the sounds can keep playing and not cut out as you vary the power to the track to change direction or neutral. Remember, the problem in conventional is the sounds need power to make the sounds, but also, track power, and it's AC waveform, and specifically DC modifications of that waveform are what is detected as bell and whistle/horn commands. So no, it's not expected for the battery to change how the DC offsets are detected. It's simply ensuring the sounds don't cut out for the momentary loss of track power while commanding conventional (varying track power and momentary drops for F-N-R) operation.

I find that people confuse the difference between MTH and Lionel. Lionel has always used the battery ONLY for Railsounds operation to keep the sounds going. MTH uses the battery for the combined sounds and control processor- and so the following "rule".

MTH- if it has a battery (example PS1 and PS2 engines)- needs a working battery- just to operate.

Lionel- never "needs" a battery, the battery is "optional" under conventional control and only supplies power momentarily to Railsounds to keep them making sound during short drops of track power typically during F-N-R control operations.

"Diesel motor sounds work but do not seem to be always in sync with actual locomotive speed."

#3 Lionel engines with Railsounds (also trainsounds does use a similar pulse system) typically use either some form of an axle speed sensing switch (Searched and found a picture of your exact engine 6-11864- with the cam driven microswitch on the axle for speed sensing.)

or magnet to produce a pulse that indicates speed to the railsounds card. Some later engines used a voltage controlled oscillator (VCO) to create that pulse from the DC motor voltage/power/pwm on the motherboard. Some later ones also used the Odyssey motor driver and it's firmware to produce a pulse speed.

Point being, when running in conventional, the Railsounds card is still a microprocessor controlling the sounds. If you ran in conventional without the "optional" 9V battery, then each time power is dropped for forward, neutral, or reverse operation, or when startup after a stop, then that processor is booting up from power for a second before it begins running. So it's possible the engine could be moving at speed and then because the processor booted up after already moving, it's unsure of the speed or state of inputs= sounds of prime mover speed might not match actual speed.

However, installing the 9V battery into Lionel engines that support it for Railsounds- keeps that processor powered and in theory improves the likelyhood of no interruptions of sounds and hopefully improves the speed sensing situation, but even that is not guaranteed. Again, this is a limitation and workaround Lionel developed to improve conventional operation, but may not fix all aspects or make features work under conventional.

BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front)

Conventional operation is an early backwards compatible limitation. It works, some things work, but in general there is a whole lot of features that work best under command control operation and constant track power.

@PDBRule posted:

Thank you so much for the informative reply!  I suspected the problem had something to do with the signal from my conventional transformer. (Which has worked perfectly well with Lionchief, Lionchief + and conventional locomotives.) I did have a string of lighted passenger cars on the track when testing the TMCC locomotive.  I will remove them and see what happens.  BTW I have been tempted to take a step toward digital control by getting the Trainmaster Command set but the price even for used CAB-1 sets is a bit steep for my small layout.   I guess the solution for me is to sell the TMCC locomotive and stick with LionChief for remote operation.

Wish you had been to a trainshow this past weekend, we had multiple vendors selling used, but in theory viable TMCC CAB1 sets of both remote and base.

One dealer was blowing them out used- untested, but remotes for $15!!!

Dealers had the boxed sets (remote and base) for $100 and some had multiple examples and did not sell during the show (I saw them packing up at the end).

BLUF- online prices of what people are asking VS trainshow prices, may not be as insane.

Find yourself a local trainshow ASAP.

Point being, when running in conventional, the Railsounds card is still a microprocessor controlling the sounds. If you ran in conventional without the "optional" 9V battery, then each time power is dropped for forward, neutral, or reverse operation, or when startup after a stop, then that processor is booting up from power for a second before it begins running. So it's possible the engine could be moving at speed and then because the processor booted up after already moving, it's unsure of the speed or state of inputs= sounds of prime mover speed might not match actual speed.

I'm not disagreeing with your descriptions, but in reality, the prime mover runs at a fixed RPM as it is a genset providing juice to the traction motors.  The increase in sound is really the effect of "loading".  Also keep in mind the 8 Notches of power level on the typical loco. I will defer to guys that know how the railsounds sound related to speed and load was designed, but in reality with a diesel loco, it's not really as simple as the loco speed strictly defining the level of sound, or at least I don't think it should be. A loco on it's own will be able to run up to a higher speed in notch one with no cars than it could with say ten cars. It might require moving up to notch 2 or 3 to get to the same speed, hense the increase in "loaded" engine sound.  So from that sense, I'm not sure it is reasonable to even expect prime mover sound leel to match speed.  All that said though again, I do not know what Lionel chose to associate the sound level change with, was it speed or was it sensed load.  Especially for the early TMCC locos like this one (and knowing this GP9 uses a Pullmor AC motor) I suspect they did just associate sound level output with loco speed. It would keep things simple but probably not represent reality.

@Dennis Holler posted:

All that said though again, I do not know what Lionel chose to associate the sound level change with, was it speed or was it sensed load.  Especially for the early TMCC locos like this one (and knowing this GP9 uses a Pullmor AC motor) I suspect they did just associate sound level output with loco speed. It would keep things simple but probably not represent reality.

Certainly, a majority of the Lionel products do not associate the prime mover with load as they have no way to detect the load.  It's controlled by the throttle setting as a rule.  You can use the train brake and momentum controls on the Legacy controller to simulate a load and increase the labor sound effects.

@PDBRule posted:

Ok, first let me say that I am hopelessly out of step with state of the art Lionel train operation.  I have a single loop layout powered by a MTH Z-1000 transformer on which my Lionchief set operates perfectly.  I recently purchased a Lionel GP9 with TMCC (6-11864) and the sounds are not operating propertly.  It runs perfectly but the horn and bell work only when it is in neutral.  Diesel motor sounds work but do not seem to be always in sync with actual locomotive speed.  I tried adding a 9v battery and the horn and bell do not work even in neutral with that!  So it seems the problem has something to do with signals reaching the locomotive.  Can anyone offer an explanantion?  Is it typicall for TMCC locomotives to not operate properly when using a conventional transformer?  Does it need to be reprogrammed, and is that possible with a conventional transformer?  Thanks

@PDBRule,

We tend to get long-winded here.  Let's back up and simplify things.

First of all command control, which you are not using to operate your GP9 is thirty years old.  It is most definitely not state-of-the-art.  Having said this, it and 99% of all locomotives in Lionel's line including LionChief+ and LionChief 2.0 (but not the very first LionChief), and all that are state-of-the-art, WILL operate conventionally, even if fitted with fancy command controls.  This is precisely so that newbies, and old-fashioned folks as well, don't run into the problem you think you have, i.e "I'm hopelessly out of step".

Prayer is neither involved nor necessary.

If you simply connect a transformer, and don't connect a command base after that, you will get conventional operation.

In your present situation, either:

   1.) The transformer is defective,

      or

   2.) The engine is defective.

The suggestions are simple.  Connect another, known good, transformer to determine if your Z1000 is bad.  Or, try another, known good, command control (TMCC, Legacy, LionChief+ or LionChief 2.0) locomotive to determine if your GP9 is bad.

If you don't have access to these, you'll need to borrow or buy them, or visit a good local hobby shop for help.

Which ever is bad will need to be repaired or replaced.

Period.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

@PDBRule,

We tend to get long-winded here.  Let's back up and simplify things.

First of all command control, which you are not using to operate your GP9 is thirty years old.  It is most definitely not state-of-the-art.  Having said this, it and 99% of all locomotives in Lionel's line including LionChief+ and LionChief 2.0 (but not the very first LionChief), and all that are state-of-the-art, WILL operate conventionally, even if fitted with fancy command controls.  This is precisely so that newbies, and old-fashioned folks as well, don't run into the problem you think you have, i.e "I'm hopelessly out of step".

Prayer is neither involved nor necessary.

If you simply connect a transformer, and don't connect a command base after that, you will get conventional operation.

In your present situation, either:

   1.) The transformer is defective,

      or

   2.) The engine is defective.

The suggestions are simple.  Connect another, known good, transformer to determine if your Z1000 is bad.  Or, try another, known good, command control (TMCC, Legacy, LionChief+ or LionChief 2.0) locomotive to determine if your GP9 is bad.

If you don't have access to these, you'll need to borrow or buy them, or visit a good local hobby shop for help.

Which ever is bad will need to be repaired or replaced.

Period.

Mike

Uh oh, conflicting info.  Maybe not a limitation of a TMCC locomotive being driven by a conventional transformer?  The puzzling thing is that the horn and bell buttons on my controller work perfectly when the loco is in neutral without the 9v battery.  So the transformer can sound the bell and horn, and the loco is capable of sounding the bell and horn, just not when the loco is moving.  I guess maybe the locomotive is defective as the horn, bell and crewtalk buttons on my LionChief controller work just fine?

Thanks for all the helpful information on an ancient topic to you guys!  I have decided to return the locomotive, after all a conventional transformer is supposed to be able to operate it properly.  Don't think I'll invest in TMCC at $300 +.  For my small layout I guess I can skip it and use Bluetooth on my phone even for Legacy locos!

I have quite few of the early TMCC diesels, never had any issues running in conventional mode. At the time was using a postwar 1033 transformer with the separate horn/bell switches (6-5906).  Then I switched to the CAB-1 powermaster combo (pre-TMCC) and also had no issues.  Does the MTH Z1000 have a pure or chopped sinewave ? At one point I had Lionel RS-1 transformer (chopped sine wave) and had quite a few issues with that transformer.

Almost any transformer with an electronic controller will have a chopped waveform, the MTH Z4000 being the single exception I can think of talking modern transformers.

That's the input I was looking for since I figured there are quite a few of us using conventional transformers to operate TMCC equipped locos.