Lionel Vision Line Centipede First Look

Looks awesome Eric! 

Did the UP have these on their railroad? I didn't think so but I'm not sure. 

The sounds definitely sound great with all the bass they have. I remember the Lionel spokesperson at York saying that the two units have separate sounds so they both will not sound identical giving you the most prototypical sound there is. 

Nope!

Would have the Centipedes been impractical for the UP? I know the UP used a lot of EMD if not exclusively. 

UP was not a big Baldwin purchaser, even in the "modern steam locomotive" era. The UP was a BIG ALCO customer, even during the change from steam to diesel, the UP tended to throw some business to ALCO (even as late as 1964 with the huge Century 855 A-B-A set). EMD and GE did get the lion's share of Union Pacific business.

VL engines retain their unique road number and name crew talk and tower comm.  From what I remember Jon Z stating, this will be the case for all VL engines.

I guess i should save my pennies because those are sharp,and the spinning fans are a nice touch.  Lets see i found a penny in my pocket so......199,999 to go!

I just hate the fact to get non generic crewtalk I have to drop $1000+ for something my engines from 2002 have.

Thanks Eric!  Really cool!  I have the Pennsy one-stripe on order and am eagerly waiting for it to arrive.

Yeah I hate it too but so many people complain about the crewtalk that Lionel dropped the specific crewtalk for the IMHO lame-o generic stuff. 

Another thing is that people don't realize that if you DON'T want the crewtalk, simply don't press the crewtalk buttons!!!! How amazing! 

Nice job as always Eric!

... Which is precisely why I don't buy the explanation by Lionel's top brass that they "listened" to consumer feedback.  Let's call a spade a spade... The generic crew talk costs LESS from a production standpoint, and that's why they went that route.  I'm sure the factory assembly lines are overcommitted as it is these days. So not needing to produce custom recordings nor coordinate voice talent for all but the most expensive offerings also helps "fit" the non-VL products into the assembly line schedules more easily.

David

......................Its a "vast orange and blue conspiracy"

Right on David. I forgot to think about that. 

Its obvious that you don't have to push the buttons and if they told people that Lionel would still be making specific crew talk because again you could always ignore the buttons, but its about the profit these days. 

My hunch about the crew talk was that when they did specific crew talks they did it to get people's interest and when people really started getting into the Legacy system and Legacy Railsounds they cut them off. But I'm probably wrong about that it is probably more of a high demand for Legacy engines fast and that, like you said, they don't have time to find voice talent. 

Well done.....thank you.

Peter

From the Legacy Users Group Meeting...

Jon Z's answer in red.  He is the CTO of Lionel.

• I'd like to know what plans Lionel has for Crew talk and Tower Comm? The dialogue has been dumbed down a bit. I'd really like for Lionel to get back to unique cab#'s and some more meaningful dialogue in the sound set. For example in Steam engines I'd rather have communication between the fireman and engineer about what they are doing in the locomotive. I think that would be more realistic and pleasing to hear.

>>Crew Talk and Tower com will not have road names or number callouts unless it is a Vision locomotive. We have been given lots of feedback from the community that “Talking Locos” are not prototypical, and to tone down the dialogs. We have, and my decision as CTO is our Tower and Crew talk are fine as delivered, and no plans to change are in process. To change the paradigm, we have added sequence control and much more variety in the tower and crew talk dialogs. Our locos are more feature rich than any time in our history of Command Control, and more to come with our IR transmission on the belly of the loco.

Marty,

Lionel is delivering some terrific technology these days, and I'm sure the technology road-map is in very capable hands with Jon Z as CTO (although I've never met the man and I'd suggest that the crewtalk implementation is NOT fine as-is).  In short, I still think he's pouring a strong cup of koolaid with that response, and something just doesn't click when we connect all the dots. 

David

I agree, David. My gut tells me that the generic crew talk is simply a financial decision...which is completely understandable these days, so why sugar coat it? I'm one of the few people (it seems we are few) that actually like the crew talk sequences. I buy a lot of Lionel engines and while I love every one of them the only downer is that crew talk has gotten very repetitive lately...Vision Line being the exception. It'd be nice if the guys at Lionel would at least meet us halfway. I'm not demanding that EVERY single engine have its own crew talk dialogue, but maybe instead just freshen it up every now and then...maybe on a yearly basis. Or maybe do something more like what MTH does. MTH engines use a lot of same dialogue but they mix it up so that every engine is slightly different than the others. Anything to inject a little variety would be welcome. Other than the crew talk issues, though, Lionel's making some great stuff right now. 

-Eric Siegel

This is a fine model, to big for my layout, but I think the Pennsy version looks good, I hope to see videos of the Pennsy version with the crew talk. The UP Version looks good. Thanks for Posting Eric.

I totally agree Eric. Like David said I think Jon is just trying to fool us into believing that people don't like the crewtalk and that those complaints have caused them to stop production of specific crewtalk. 

I don't see how hard it can be to just freshen up the crewtalk now and then. I really like the crewtalk and it adds a new dimension to the locomotive that no other manufacturer has. From watching your review Eric I laughed at how bad the crewtalk was for some of your engines. For example they had a "New Yorker" engineer in a Union Pacific 4-12-2. I don't want an engine that has one roadname but has an engineer that sounds like he is from the other side of the country. 

Maybe it is all financial but then it sure is hard to please the guys who don't want it, don't want to pay for it, want it all including the new IR features, don't like the dialog, don't like the accent, want more dialog, and want it cheap.

I surmise that it's probably a little of both cost vs what we can get in there and get it out timely.

I enjoy the crew talk feature.  Eric thanks for demonstrating this feature on the Centipedes.  I agree that Lionel's position on the application of generic crew talk on the non-Vision Line engines just does not add up.  Why would the Vision Line engines get unique dialog while all other Legacy engines get the generic and annoying New York engineer? Doesn't the presence of unique crew talk on the flagship Vision Line engines illustrate that Lionel is treating crew talk as an important feature?  It can only come down to cost and profit. 

After seeing your video Eric, if Lionel does release an N de M version I would likely purchase it, UNLESS it has the NY engineer....argh.  I love my 4-12-2, but that voice/accent grates on me.

Don't know or care either way about crewtalk or its diecast shell. 

What bothers me far more is the gap between its rather unadorned diecast shell and front pilot and also the body underframe.

Sorry, however I cut it, I don't see anything to justify its $2100.00 MSRP here.

Joe 

It has to be a rail crusher. Nice video. Summer is winding down, new product is arriving,  now it's time to get  back to the Wah Wah Wahs.

I find crew talk a waste of micro-processor time, memory and one's & zero's.  Particularly when it's radio chatter in locomotives that didn't have radios. 

I avoid using it like the plague.

Rusty

Thanks Eric. That engine is so big it is like getting four engines in the two.

Thanks eric for the movie... I dont get what alot of you want ..I have seen them in person there a work of art.. The metal bodies let these monsters have 8 pulling pounds of power.Yes there 2k. If you dont like the price dont buy them.. I dont like the price.. As for generic crew talk on non vision line trains who cares..Do you push your crewtalk button down every 5 seconds? I dont use it alot of the time. I want the sounds and the horns/whistle to be right .. I have 4 vision line engines and there awesome the best trains i own..

Eric, Thanks for the video.  I think that the guys who can afford them will want one of these on their engine roster.  Perhaps there will be some deals at York?  I think it is an awesome engine.

I don't mind generic crew talk.  What else can the crew say that would appeal to a wide group of modelers?  

I hope to see one of these sometime soon.

Joe

Yes... they almost make the DD35's look small!!!    Great video, by the way, Eric.  Thanks for the preview.

Highly unlikely that these monsters will find their way onto my roster though.  There's just simply TOO MUCH stuff being offered right now for even scale enthusiasts to consume.  But I get that it ultimately boils down to personal preference (and financial means, of course).  For me, I'd opt to put $2K towards double-heading two UP 4-12-2 steamers... or let's see, $2K could also put us 25% of the way toward a complete Norfolk Southern roster of heritage diesels, or... well, you see what I mean??? 

David

I hear ya, David. It's a lot of money. I made the decision to get it because it's Vision Line and every other Vision Line item has been completely badass. Vision Line is one of those things that's too good to last. Eventually they will scrap the line for one reason or another, so I want to get it while I can as well as show my support for the line so that, hopefully, they won't cancel it anytime soon. 

If someone doesn't want to buy it because it's out of their price range or because they'd rather have something else, that's perfectly fine. My only issue is with folks who balk at the price because they don't think it's worth it...when they haven't even seen it in action. Every single Vision Line engine (it seems) has been met with at least some criticism over the price. But in each case, the engines turned out to be worth it. I remember back when the Vision ES44 hybrid first came out. A lot of people didn't order it because they thought "How can a diesel be worth $900?". However, once people actually saw it in action they were blown away and wanted one. As a result the original GE demonstrator hybrid is now fairly hard to find and is often selling for more than the original retail. I've seen them selling for $1,400! The ES44 is the most watched review I've done on youtube, btw. People just didn't "get it" until they saw it in action.

What puzzles me is how someone can say the centipede isn't worth 2k just by looking at picture or watching it in action for all of 30 seconds. I've been playing with the centipede since yesterday and, I gotta say, I'm starting (as I always do with Vision Line stuff) to believe the 2k pricetag was justified. Here are a few of the features and facts on the centipede that you guys may not be aware of yet that might help to justify the price a bit:

1. It's all die-cast metal. OK, we all know that already. But think about it. It's 46" of die-cast glory. That's the length of 2 very large die-cast steam engines! To buy 2 Lionel die-cast steam engines alone would run around $2,400 at least.

2. 4 motors, 4 smoke units. Again, this is common knowledge as it was stated in catalog. But it's staggering anyway.

3. This you may not know. The engine has 16 traction tires (yes, 16) and has over 8 pounds of pulling power. I guess that means it'll pull just about anything you could ever imagine. To put this in perspective, the strongest postwar engines pulled maybe 1-2 pounds. Most modern diesels will pull around 1-3 pounds and most modern steam engines will pull around 1-3 pounds or so as well...although there are a few exceptions.

4. The sound effects on this thing are killer. There's no way to describe it accurately in words. The coolest thing (to me) is the horn. When you blow the horn, it sort of "echoes" to the second unit and results it this amazing doppler-ish effect. I've never heard anything like it...which is what Vision Line is all about.

5. The rooftop fans on both units spin at all times when the engine is on. To my knowledge this was not mentioned in the catalog description (why, I have no idea). But that's not all. They don't just blindly spin. Firstly, there's a flywheel attached the motor that drives the fans. This means that at start-up the fans start in a slow realistic manner and at shut-down they slowly power down. Pretty cool, huh? Well, that's not all. When you increase the RPM's on the centipede, the speed of the fans changes as well, getting faster as the RPM's go up. Once again, it's something that's never been done before (to my knowledge) and that's what Vision Line is all about.

It's a beast of an engine with a lot to offer, so I think the price tag is fairly well justified. If you do the math based on previous Vision Line offerings and even non-vision offerings, it works out...

The die-cast ES44's were $875, all die-cast with 2 motors. The centipede is basically 2 of those put together, which would come to $1750. Then you add in the 3 extra smoke units, the more advanced fans on both units and the fact that the centipede uses more die-cast metal than 2 of the ES44's would, $2,000 is right about where you'd be.

It's also the equivalent of buying 2 $1,000 steam engines, but the centipede likely uses more metal than 2 steam engines would and has twice as many motors and smoke units, plus the fancy fans and so forth.

I hope that all makes sense. I think the price is high, but justifiable. If you can't afford it or you don't like it, that's ok. But don't bash the thing before you've seen everything it's got.

Thanks,

Eric

Eric,

You are right on all counts.  The Vision Line engines have been incredible!  I don't have all of the VL engines, but I have 3 of them and they are by far the coolest engines I own. 

In terms of the unqualified negative comments.  That just seems to come with the territory around here.  Some folks are just negative, and they tend to be the most outspoken.

Thanks for taking the time to shoot and post the video.  I appreciate it.  Your videos help me make decisions about what to buy or not buy.  Keep up the good work and don't let the haters diminish your excitement for whatever your newest engine is.

I've got the Pennsy single stripers on order and I hope they get here soon.  I'm from Altoona and the single stripe units worked as helpers on the Curve until their retirement.  Dad, an Altoona Yard PRR Brakeman, talked about them.

Thanks Eric for a great review, beautiful engine awesome sound. Eric one question It might have been mentioned above I didn't read the whole thread. Does the engine rev up on it's own as you increase the throttle or do you have to rev it up by the legacy control buttons. 

Thanks, Alex

LIONEL DOES IT AGAIN, AWESOME

Alex

Why wouldn't it?  All my Legacy Engines do this and most of my TMCC.  Do you some that don't?

Does the engine rev up on it's own as you increase the throttle or do you have to rev it up by the legacy control buttons.

There's another thread now that shows two images of these locomotives on the Curve (with all 4 tracks), and I can only imagine what a fabulous sight they would have been to see up close in person on the Curve during the 1940's and 1950's.  WOW... that's 60-70 years ago!!!  If only we had a time machine!!! 

Honestly, if there weren't so many good (and expensive) products available right now, I just might be able to convince myself to spring for the 5-stripe Pennsy Centipedes.  But after a Vision Line UP Challenger (Charlie Ro super sales can be bad for the budget), two UP 4-12-2's (one yet remaining in the budget), along with the arrival of MTH's recent Blue Goose set with extra cars -- just to name a few heavy hitters -- my checkbook is currently CLOSED for train purchases in 2012, and availability of a Pennsy 5-stripe Centipede may not last into 2013!!!     Now... when's the next Powerball lottery??? 

David

>>>What puzzles me is how someone can say the centipede isn't worth 2k just by looking at picture or watching it in action for all of 30 seconds<<

For me its pretty simple...Great sound, smoke and smooth operation can be found on just about every recent Legacy locomotive including those priced far far less.

The visual is what I believe to be this models #1 priority.  At $2100, exterior detail should be extensive and flawless. When on display its simply everything..

Sadly, for me the gap above the pilot and underframe is a joke. 

Joe  

Joe,

The angle of the camera makes the diesel appear to have a huge gap between the frame and the trucks. Look at any other diesels they have the same thing when you look at them at a certain angle. 

Eric was able to confirm this when I asked him on Youtube.