LIONEL/LCCA AMERICAN FLYER

I'll be interested in seeing what you come up with, Lou.

Rusty

Good Day Lou,

I like modern diesel locomotives as well as engines from the 60’s and 70’s. So here goes………

How about the GE AC6000CW’s or ES44AC’s? Thinking of EMD how about the SD70MAC’s, GP30’s and GP60's?

Rolling stock:

Trinity 5161 Hoppers

Husky Stack Cars with containers

89’ Trailer Train Flat Cars with S Scale 40’ and 45’ Trailers

Auto Racks  

Bay Window Caboose

Regards,

Frank

 A new Starter set? Maybe resurrect the 21004/5 in a starter set. It would be a sure seller. How about a true scale Royal Blue die-cast Pacific with cars TMCC/Legacy etc?

 Al

Please tee up an AF 20th Century Limited Dreyfuss Hudson.  Thanks and good luck.  Also looking forward to learning more about what you discuss with them.  

I'd like to see some "AF" style steam locomotives... for example S Scale versions of the "Jr." locomotives (Berkshire, Hudson, Mikado). Simple and rugged enough to fit in on a "classic" style layout and I can let my kid handle it without worrying about getting broken, but the cast in detailing is "fine" enough that it won't look out of place (with some added weathering) next to my "scale" locomotives and rolling stock.

For diesels, an F3 set would be really nice.

Cheers,

Ken

Isn't this a backward step wanting Lionel to make engines in the style of the original 50's AF detail?  I personally would not buy an engine with minimum proportions etc and be expected to pay a hefty price for it. I want to live for the future not the past. The new offerings are the equivalent of the past and we should be seeing these as the current benchmark of customer needs.

Also, is the LCCA going to provide funding for these projects or are they expecting Lionel to stump up all the costs?

I also seem to remember that Lou said that Flyer S gauge was going to be more integral and inclusive to the LCCA but I can't seem to see this in the LCCA website, am I missing something?

Regards,

Neil

I don't consider it a "backward step" especially if you want to grow S Scale. If we want to get more people into the hobby (S Scale) then we need entry level sets, esp. sets that have a sufficient lack of detail to be safe for kids to play with. Not everyone jumps into the hobby with $500-plus super-detailed locomotives and rolling stock. Some of us like the traditional stuff even AFTER we've gone the "scale" route. I already have plenty of "scale" stuff (mainly P-B-L and River Raisin) but I still like the classic AF style trains too.

I don't know why we can't have both choices, and I don't know why some people think (some even insist) that having both choices is somehow a bad idea.

Cheers,

Ken

What little S I have is all older traditional, so this offering may be of interest.

Steve

It would be a step backwards if Lionel were to only persue the path of traditional Flyer designs.  Even though I'm a scale guy, there's still a couple of traditional pieces I would like, be it original or reproduction.

I agree with Neil.  There is a place for the traditional and the latest in S.  Growth will come from both ends plus the middle of the spectrum.

As far as the LCCA goes, I've watched what Lou has been coming up with in O and there's certainly been things I wouldn't have an interest in, but there were other things that did peak my interest, the only thing stopping me was my desire not to reestablish a significant O gauge collection again. 

As far as financing, go, that's between Lou, the LCCA financial folks and Lionel.  I would trust that if Lou had been squandering club money on failed projects, he wouldn't be doing it anymore.

I expect we'll see offerings based on what there is tooling presently available for (or in the process) or something that cuold be modifed with minum expense.

As for an F3, according to the jungle drums, MTH will be re-releasing the SHS F3 as their first locomotive.

Rusty

Ken,

I agree with you that S needs growth to expand, but where is this growth coming from? I see there is greater opportunity for growth from two areas, first are those currently into O gauge looking to get more in less space and second, those in HO looking for something larger and easier to work with. In both cases these are going to be older/mature collector operators hopefully seeking better quality from existing manufacturers, not toy like representations.

To start producing lower quality starter sets I guess you are looking at the kids of tomorrow. This is fine, but is it possible that most of these will be one trick wonders at **** and that most of those kids will never progress to expanding much further? How many years also will have to pass before these kids do become old enough to get more involved, could be at least 15+ and more. In reality there is also the possibility that some of these kids will move into another scale altogether. 

If Lionel have got the tooling for say the plastic 28x and metal 29x locomotives, then these are the lower end starter items I would be looking to market. But even then what are people's expectations on cost? I wouldn't expect to see them for less than say $175 at best, especially when you have the cost of the traditional style Baldwin switcher at over $200 retail. You can pick up nice examples now of the 28/9xx engines for less than $100 which could make selling new stuff more difficult. Then there are the cars, track, transformer, packaging to make a set so where does this starter set start price wise? If Lionel really does consider a totally new engine based on traditional styling of the 50's then I can't see it being cheap as they will need/want to get there costs back reasonably quickly.

If the LCCA does actually launch something then it will have to cost more than norm due to short runs being made and possible collector value which I believe the LCCA promotes itself as doing, so these won't be geared for the youngsters as starter sets.

I do believe there is still a market for the old traditional Flyer using existing/original tooling but I see it becoming more of a niche market with selective offerings as time passes.

Regards,

Neil

As I mentioned in another thread, whatever Lionel develops in S-gauge, give us an option of a really dependable locomotive with simple transformer controlled forward-neutral-reverse sequencing.  All the extras can be added for an additional cost.  This would meet the needs of the beginner as well as those of the true modeler.  I see pictures in CTT's reviews and ads of new items from Atlas, MTH, Williams, etc., and I just drool.  Make the same stuff in S without all the complicated electronics for those of us who like to keep things simple.

Mark

They (Lionel) doesn't seem to have any problem selling starter sets in O Gauge. I don't see why it would be any different in S Scale. I'm thinking quality/detail level similar to the PE Berkshire. I think it would be easier to grow the scale if people actually could START in S Scale. Getting people to convert from HO or O seems to be more difficult to me, especially since many may have significant money tied up in their "other" scale.

It would have been really nice if I could have bought my son an S Scale train set for Christmas last year, but since nothing is available I ended up getting him a Polar Express in O Gauge. It's a lot of fun... sometimes I just want to run trains and not worry about my expensive brass engines. Since the PE I've bought several other "classic" style O Gauge trains. I wish I was buying the same types of trains in S Scale instead, but they're just not available new. Most of the AF I've been able to find is either over priced junk or expensive "collectible" stuff. I don't see why S can't have both scale AND toy trains. Lionel does both in O Gauge, there is no reason they can't do both in S Scale too.

Cheers,

Ken

Ken,

What sort of traditional style engines would you like to see made and what would you be prepared to pay for them? Take the PE set in O gauge by Lionel, what do you think is a good price to pay for this in S?

In order to grow, S people also would probably want to see more prototypical items unlike the PE set which is a 'fantasy' style thingy.

Neil

Lots of good insight, even if we have drifted away from Lou's announcement...  Let's see now, where's my soapbox.

Ukaflyer wrote:

"To start producing lower quality starter sets I guess you are looking at the kids of tomorrow. This is fine, but is it possible that most of these will be one trick wonders at **** and that most of those kids will never progress to expanding much further? How many years also will have to pass before these kids do become old enough to get more involved, could be at least 15+ and more. In reality there is also the possibility that some of these kids will move into another scale altogether."

That's always a possibility.  There is also the better chance that the kids would not be interested at all in model railroading or trains as they grow older.  With all the hyper-electronics kids have to play with nowadays, developing a life long interest within them in model railroading is a challenge.  This point seems to escape some of our 3-rail friends.

Of the 8 or so kids on my block in the 1950's, all had trains, I was the only one to maintain an interest in them.  I bought a decent Lionel starter set for my oldest nephew back in the 80's.  He has no interest in trains today.

markjs wrote:

"As I mentioned in another thread, whatever Lionel develops in S-gauge, give us an option of a really dependable locomotive with simple transformer controlled forward-neutral-reverse sequencing.  All the extras can be added for an additional cost.  This would meet the needs of the beginner as well as those of the true modeler."

There are many who have expressed a similar opinion, but I don't think it's in Lionel's DNA to offer basic AD/DC operation in the mid to upper lines.  Until Lionel actually produces a starter set for Flyer, we won't have an inkling of how they're going to approach it.

Once MTH gets up and running, I fully expect they will not do the basics either.  Their S starter sets are just a likely to have their "DCS Lite" as they do with O and HO.

glocker wrote:

"They (Lionel) doesn't seem to have any problem selling starter sets in O Gauge. I don't see why it would be any different in S Scale. I'm thinking quality/detail level similar to the PE Berkshire. I think it would be easier to grow the scale if people actually could START in S Scale. Getting people to convert from HO or O seems to be more difficult to me, especially since many may have significant money tied up in their "other" scale."

Again agreement.  A S starter set is going to have to be price comparable to an O gauge starter set.  The next thing is they are actually going to have to be at dealers, whether online or in bricks and mortar. 

Plus, there's going to have to be more than just a train and oval of track available.  Accessories, buildings, more track variety need to be available.  One of the hardest thing to tell someone who might be interested in S is "well, you sort of have to look around."  And trying to turn them to used Flyer is a non-starter.

As far as attracting form the other scales, it can be done(that's how I got here, the process took several years) but it is difficult to overcome the "if only I didn't have so much invested in..."

I've been in S since 1985, and at times it hasn't been easy.  Until now, there really hasn't been a "household" name producing S trains.  AM, SHS, Desplaines/SSA are small potatoes with little to no name recognition outside of S. 

Lionel wasn't really a serious player trying to break out of the Gilbert mold (there was a false start around 2003 with the Mikado's, but it never really expanded much) until recently and MTH was always saying "someday."

That's all changing now.  I think Lionel's finally earned some respect with the SD70's and even the Y3's from the scale crowd, while were' still waiting on MTH.

We're at the begining of what I hope will be a second reboot of S.(The first one happened in the early 1980's)  Unfortunately, it is going to take a little time.  But, from basic starter sets, to detailed full featured locomotives and cars and everything else inbetween, I look forward to it all.

Rusty

If you want an "S" Gauge American Flyer starter set that will sell then and bring more kids in, they should do Thomas the Tank Engine in 2 Rail us but this time one up Bachman.  Make it smoke and have a Peep Peep whistle sound.  Kids will love it.  They don't get that with the HO version.  I would also add his lamp (Headlight) which no scale ever seems to add.  If they go this route they better be ready with switches and more track as well as accessories.

How about a T-1 or S-2 and passenger cars in the ledacy version?

A starter engine, if it wasn't a diesel, which the younger set can relate to, should be a simple generic steamer like Williams By Bachmann's 4-6-0. Just a main and eccentric rod, Something you would ride behind at a tourist railroad. A 4-6-0, or 2-6-2 would be great. And coaches would be nice as well.