@gunrunnerjohn posted:Exactly! This seems to be a calculated move to force obsolescence onto the older products. Since all the mechanical parts are still available, the space savings for removing maybe 10% of the inventory doesn't really ring true.
BINGO!
Since I simply don't know, could these engines still be repaired using RS Lite components? I realize it would require swapping multiple components rather than a single one, but I believe RS Lite boards would be able to handle all the lighting or smoke effects present on early Legacy boards?
@Notch 6 posted:Yup here we are again. Someone at a company made a business decision that someone(s) didn't like. There was the same kind of outcry when ERR died the first time, and when MTH decided to develop DCS instead of adopting TMCC, etc. The list goes all the way back to 1994 when Lionel decided to develop a proprietary control system which they hoped everyone would adopt as the standard.
As the decades have passed, TMCC has become more and more of a closed system. It's Lionel's operating system and they can continue to close up the ranks as they see fit. The same can be said of MTH.
What's interesting is this is primarily a group that demands backwards compatibility and also expects its two main manufactures to offer parts from models manufactured nearly twenty years ago. What everyone forgets is that at some point going back over 70 years the after market has had to step in and offer parts and support after the manufacture has exhausted its' supply or made a business decision to drive product sales.
The O gauge industry also has a habit of taking incredibly talented young individuals away from their respective entrepreneurial developments and putting them into company ranks until an inevitable parting of ways. Frank Pettit, Lou Kovach, Jon Z. (Not even going to try and spell it tonight), John Ricks, the list goes on and on.
What the O gauge hobby has failed to do again and again is to pool its' resources and develop a technology that either supplements or replaces these failed proprietary systems. There is a risk of patent infringement, lawyers, and a steep learning curve involved. We have always counted on the manufactures to "Do the right thing" even if the right thing hurt their business.
In my opinion, the only way this ever gets solved is that we continue to support the factory authorized upgrades such as ERR or Proto 3 upgrade kits, or we finally decided to adapt and find a way to make our trains retrofittable with a more widely available technology or control system.
I love TMCC. I love the way it revolutionized the hobby, I love its' history, and I love the development of the technology. However, I think Lionel might be right in pulling the plug on being the aftermarket source for boards. I personally think its' time for the hobby to band together a figure out what the next step is as opposed to having the decision made for them. That would require people to step up and figure out what's possible and at what cost. I've looked at some of the options and it's not feasible for one individual to undertake any more, but maybe this segment of the hobby can pool its' resources and see what it can come up with.
Sorry for the ramble, but the writing is on the wall. Whether or not we choose to do something about it is up to the members of the hobby.
Appreciate what you are saying but one serious issue, from a customer relations standpoint, is that Lionel just didn’t let old stock run off and explain they couldn’t make more due to the factors you mention. Rather it appears they eliminated the supply prematurely, before it was all sold off. In a supply and demand economy, as the supply dries up, generally prices go up and that makes the alternatives you describe more attractive from a consumer standpoint and more lucrative from the perspective of an entrepreneur looking to supply a replacement. What Lionel has effectively accomplished is to foreclose that process, or the possibility of it, and caused an immediate supply disruption. I think this is why people are rightly ****ed off.
I think we all fully expected the day would come when a board we need would no longer be available. We have been seeing that in our appliances for years but I have yet to post onto an appliance repair website about it. So what’s so different here?
These appliances work for hours and hours, some nearly non-stop and we get a lot of good from them. By comparison, my model trains run for minutes a year. I have not got complete enjoyment for what I paid by the time some need repair. I don’t mind repairing them but I have to have parts.
This is what is disenfranchising many of us. A possible move by Lionel to boost new sales might cost them net customers and total sales in the long run.
Right your are, Steims. I think that after word has spread about Lionel's older parts abandonment, it will begin to see sales fall off, starting now.
The reality of it is what it is, ….so instead of sitting around complaining, crying, whining, and swearing the world is coming to an end, there are already folks looking into developing work arounds for the current situation to in which we find ourselves deployed,……as far as Lionel is concerned, the deed is done, and you ain’t gonna change their minds……yes, it sucks, no doubt, but crying about it and trying to figure out the conspiracy theories doesn’t fix a **** thing,……those of you that threw in the towel out the gate, you either have a ton of broken equipment, or the mere thought of a future breakdown has you so petrified, you’re finished ………the immediate suck is for service techs, as they won’t have an instant remedy,….I intend to roll on as normal, listen to, and work with those in the industry with cardinal knowledge that will be looking to develop future products for repairs…….but to those surrendering, lemme know when trash day is at your neck of the woods….I’ll be on the lookout……
Pat
@harmonyards posted:….but to those surrendering, lemme know when trash day is at your neck of the woods….I’ll be on the lookout……
Are you going to share the wealth or keep it all for yourself? 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Are you going to share the wealth or keep it all for yourself?
Judging by the fallout on this thread, we’ll need a moving van, and some helpers,….so yeah, I’ll share the wealth,…..sounds like it’s gonna be the land of plenty,……sheeeeeeeeeezzzz Louise!…
Pat
@harmonyards posted:The reality of it is what it is, ….so instead of sitting around complaining, crying, whining, and swearing the world is coming to an end, there are already folks looking into developing work arounds for the current situation to in which we find ourselves deployed,……as far as Lionel is concerned, the deed is done, and you ain’t gonna change their minds……yes, it sucks, no doubt, but crying about it and trying to figure out the conspiracy theories doesn’t fix a **** thing,……those of you that threw in the towel out the gate, you either have a ton of broken equipment, or the mere thought of a future breakdown has you so petrified, you’re finished ………the immediate suck is for service techs, as they won’t have an instant remedy,….I intend to roll on as normal, listen to, and work with those in the industry with cardinal knowledge that will be looking to develop future products for repairs…….but to those surrendering, lemme know when trash day is at your neck of the woods….I’ll be on the lookout……
Pat
Just curious as who is working on a fix for this problem.
@feet posted:Just curious as who is working on a fix for this problem.
To be announced by those doing the development…..not by I ……I’m just letting you guys know some stuff is being discussed behind the scenes, so some of y’all (ain’t naming any names) can put away the extension cords over the rafters, and put the cyanide pills back in the box,…😉
Pat
@harmonyards posted:To be announced by those doing the development…..not by I ……I’m just letting you guys know some stuff is being discussed behind the scenes, so some of y’all (ain’t naming any names) can put away the extension cords over the rafters, and put the cyanide pills back in the box,…😉
Pat
LOL! Thanks for some info. As you said it is what it is. None of us like the prospect of a shelf queen but I suspect there are always options, just maybe not the ones we hope for.
Derek had a good point and while I disagree with what Lionel does it won’t change anything. Glad to hear someone is looking into some sort of fix, I’ll gladly support anyone that is smart enough to come up with a replacement. Some days I wish I’d go back learn some EE and be able to spend my time looking into stuff like that. But maybe in a different life I’m just a lowly HVAC/R technician 😜
@harmonyards posted:To be announced by those doing the development…..not by I ……I’m just letting you guys know some stuff is being discussed behind the scenes, so some of y’all (ain’t naming any names) can put away the extension cords over the rafters, and put the cyanide pills back in the box,…😉
Pat
Well that's rather interesting and somewhat intriguing, harmonyards. But I will believe it when I see it. Even if these mysterious alternatives come to pass, I imagine it will take some time for them to be implemented and these parts are available to users.
@MartyE posted:LOL! Thanks for some info. As you said it is what it is. None of us like the prospect of a shelf queen but I suspect there are always options, just maybe not the ones we hope for.
Your welcome Marty, ….and to be honest, I don’t get it,…why do some folks think their stuff will be shelf queens?…..I haven’t spoken directly to Scott Mann myself, but I’ve talked to a couple well known techs that say Scott is well stocked with ERR products, …..yeah, I get it , it ain’t legacy, it is a step down, but good golly, ERR has 100 speed steps, John’s stuff will give fan smoke and chuffs, ….I guess not having whistle steam, etc,…is a parking offense??……hogwash, ….I have zero shelf queens, ….and if you ask my buddy Pete, apparently I have a gazzillion engines…🤣🤣🤣
Pat
I purchased 2 Lionchief sets and a stand-alone Lionchief loco with the belief that these items would last a couple of years and basically be disposable. And, like most of us, I do not have money to waste.
As a person who was trained in both college and grad school to do research based on verifiable facts and data, I find this statement "To be announced by those doing the development…..not by I ……I’m just letting you guys know some stuff is being discussed behind the scenes," which was presented without any substantive support to be rumor mongering with some smoke and mirrors mixed in. Just my opinion.
@Yellowstone Special posted:Well that's rather interesting and somewhat intriguing, harmonyards. But I will believe it when I see it. Even if these mysterious alternatives come to pass, I imagine it will take some time for them to be implemented and these parts are available to users.
No mystery Vern. Currently ERR has a solution for just about any TMCC engine. Even first generation Legacy if you can live without whistle smoke and even that is possible with a little work. Swinging bell as well.
Pete, a bit short of a gazzillion.
@Yellowstone Special posted:Well that's rather interesting and somewhat intriguing, harmonyards. But I will believe it when I see it. Even if these mysterious alternatives come to pass, I imagine it will take some time for them to be implemented and these parts are available to users.
You gotta do what you gotta do Vern, ….again, I beg to ask, …do y’all have a mountain of broken equipment that’s holding y’all up?….or is it the prospect of a future component failure that’s got some of you guys in a tail spin??….I’m not being nasty, …but I’m trying to understand why some of you guys ( maybe not you personally?? ) are ready to strap on life preserves like the ship is going down……I do indeed have a lot of engines, and I’m just not anticipating having dead locomotives piled up like cord wood,……
Pat
@modeltrainsparts posted:As a person who was trained in both college and grad school to do research based on verifiable facts and data, I find this statement "To be announced by those doing the development…..not by I ……I’m just letting you guys know some stuff is being discussed behind the scenes," which was presented without any substantive support to be rumor mongering with some smoke and mirrors mixed in. Just my opinion.
Opionons are like you know what….everybody’s got one…..you don’t like it, leave it alone ….
Pat
Stumbled on this thread when I could not find some parts on the Lionel site. One thing this hobby has is a lot of smart people. I think one way or another trains will keep rolling. Even auto MFgs stop making parts at some point but look at all the 10-20 yr old cars in daily use. I’ll stand by to stand by now 
I agree that tmcc is a lot easier to repair. My concern was having the correct code in the boards. John's smoke and chuff boards help out a lot. Odyssey motor boards have code specific to an engine. If Lionel releases that code so after market parts can be made, that works for me. I've lost 3 radio boards due to board failure and one motor board due to a pinched wire. Not bad for 30 years of command control. I just want options to keep everything running. Accessories like the tmcc cars and the backshop have unique code. My whale car does not work with c08 code in the radio board. I tried it when the board failed. Lionel had to program a radio board with whale code to bring the car back to life.
It's not the end of the world, but options are nice when a failure occurrs.
@Norton posted:No mystery Vern. Currently ERR has a solution for just about any TMCC engine. Even first generation Legacy if you can live without whistle smoke and even that is possible with a little work. Swinging bell as well.
Actually, I have a way to do the whistle steam. I may have to dust off that project now that we are faced with this situation. Biggest hurdle is the shortage of the processor I'd be using, but I'm guessing those will appear at sometime in the near future.
@harmonyards Hey Pat, you could be just a little more considerate to the members here. Remember there a 5 steps in the grieving process (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance) and everyone is at different points along the way.
Some of us have non-functioning locomotives that are in various states of disassembly and have been waiting for a replacement board for months. As such, this was a big disappointment.
Until we hear that Lionel has provided the source code to a 3rd party and production begins we will have to settle for one-off solutions which require additional time, understanding and risk.
@Steims posted:Until we hear that Lionel has provided the source code to a 3rd party and production begins we will have to settle for one-off solutions which require additional time, understanding and risk.
Sadly, unless I miss my guess, there is no solution forthcoming from Lionel.
The best case scenario appears to be that whatever 3rd party that acquired the stock will offer it for sale. I suspect anyone that bought that varied an inventory has in mind making some money with it, pretty hard to believe they just wanted to hoard it.
Anyone questioning their decision to place pre-orders on Lionel engines? 
The issue isn't that the sky is falling, or that there's going to be mass board failures. The point is this: I've got a Vision Line CC2 that retailed for $1,750. I've run it maybe a half dozen times. If it fails for some reason, either my error or a bad component, I'm not a happy camper. $1,750 for a paperweight isn't cutting it. Maybe that failure never happens, but it very well could. If it does, a generic TMCC board isn't doing the trick, either. I bought that model to have an engine not previously produced that has whistle steam, and blowdown, and a swinging bell. I could have gone and bought some MPC conventional engine if all I sought was an engine to go in circles on the layout. Many others face the same prospect.
I truly get if the components were no longer available, but known available components just disappeared at once. If they sold to a 3rd party, then this thread is really pointless and we'll all be able to hoard parts in no time. However, if they're in the back of a Waste Management truck, Lionel has a big problem from a PR and customer relational standpoint. We (the people spending thousands to tens or hundreds of thousands on product) expected them to run out eventually, not to be thrown away.
If they just tossed them, I'm going to have to reconsider my current pre-orders. I know that sounds rash, but I run my stuff on our Train Garden layout, and that's long, hard running. I need to know Lionel is there when I have a failure (it is when and not if in my circumstance).
My hope is this means little or nothing. Until they give an answer to the people that pay the bills, however, speculation will remain steady.
@Frank Mulligan posted:Anyone questioning their decision to place pre-orders on Lionel engines?
Nope. We're talking engines over 10 years old here.
@Steims posted:@harmonyards Hey Pat, you could be just a little more considerate to the members here. Remember there a 5 steps in the grieving process (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance) and everyone is at different points along the way.
Some of us have non-functioning locomotives that are in various states of disassembly and have been waiting for a replacement board for months. As such, this was a big disappointment.
Until we hear that Lionel has provided the source code to a 3rd party and production begins we will have to settle for one-off solutions which require additional time, understanding and risk.
Guys, it ain’t my place to give out names or companies that I’ve spoken to that are aware of this new found problem, and those folks are doing their own research to find workable solutions …….this is all new, and if they do decide they can market their solutions, I’ll let them make the announcements rather than me misleading anyone with wrong information,……..I mean golly, Lionel just dropped the bomb, you gotta give these folks some time to do their homework??…..no??…
Pat
@MartyE posted:Nope. We're talking engines over 10 years old here.
In eleven years, today’s pre-order engine will be over 10 years old too. 😃
@MartyE posted:Nope. We're talking engines over 10 years old here.
I don't think that matters a lot. There are numerous models that have not been reissued in the last decade, and others that have been reissued with different or fewer features. If Lionel chose to move away from the RS Lite boards they've used for the last decade, there are MANY models from the past ten years that would need reissue should those boards be lost, sold out, or tossed.
@NYCBuffalo posted:Stumbled on this thread when I could not find some parts on the Lionel site. One thing this hobby has is a lot of smart people. I think one way or another trains will keep rolling. Even auto MFgs stop making parts at some point but look at all the 10-20 yr old cars in daily use. I’ll stand by to stand by now
You can't use cars as an example, they make millions of cars a year and cars production runs are measured in easily 5 years or more. Likewise, after 7 years third party people can make replacement parts. Unless you have some exotic car, getting parts for a 20 year old camry or whatever is no big deal.
Trains are low volume and they don't stockpile a lot of parts, pure and simple. I understand people's concerns, you spend a lot on these products and basically there is little support to start with and down the road, you can be left adrift with a 2000 dollar paper weight. I don't know the long term reliability of these engines but in a sense what Lionel is doing is what appliance makers do, you buy a washer, a board fails 6 years after you bought it, and you can't fix it. Thing is a washer at least is 1 item, but you are paying washer prices on a toy train engine, but Lionel et al pretend like it is the same thing.
That said, this is not new. I bought used many years ago a (conventional) Erie Lackawanna MU set. It works, but certain features don't work right. I asked about fixing it with my local guy, he said you couldn't get boards for that unit after a couple of years after they sold them new(this was like 6 years after they were made). Heck, people have said it is hard to get parts for late model legacy and other engines, too. Do I think this is good? No, just saying from all the complaints on here over the years you are playing a form of russian roulette with these engines and how long they work. I would wish that Lionel and MTH would allow third parties to make parts once they decide not to stock them, it would benefit them in the long run...which is likely part of the problem, more than likely people running the show only care about the next earnings sheet. Thing is, if worries about future support stop people from buying new products, then it is a short term concern.
Will something work out, where they allow a third party to sell/rebuild/make replacement boards? I don't know (prob sell more likely than license to build), we can hope.
In the meantime, it is up to the person and their willingness to take on risk they will end up with a paperweight, but again given all the complaints about poor quality, poor service, that have been pretty common on here, doesn't sound like a new issue.
@MartyE posted:Nope. We're talking engines over 10 years old here.
Very true but would you want to buy, say a $2000.00 locomotive knowing that in 10 years or less parts may or not be available?
My answer is absolutely not.
@Andrew B. posted:If Lionel chose to move away from the RS Lite boards they've used for the last decade, there are MANY models from the past ten years that would need reissue should those boards be lost, sold out, or tossed.
They've already taken a step away from the first version of RS-Lite, the current Legacy sound boards are a new design. For one, they no longer have the battery connection.
I think we should all just take a deep breath of fresh air...
...and then let it out in a agonizing cry of terror.
Just kidding. Lets face it, Lionel must have some sort of plan here. Whether they're selling off all the old electronics stock to a 3rd party such as Trainz, or whether they are keeping hold on all the remaining inventory for future repair work to prevent folks (like us) from buying up and hoarding all of the remaining stock, I don't know. But I can feel pretty confident that Lionel, which is in the market to make a profit, would not simply toss thousands and thousands of dollars of inventory in a dumpster - especially inventory that they could charge a greater premium for if people learned that there was only a limited supply and it would be going away.
If they were axing all the electronics inventory simply to make space, it doesn't make sense why they would keep inventory of all the other many parts for old locomotives.
@Joe Fermani posted:I agree that tmcc is a lot easier to repair. My concern was having the correct code in the boards. John's smoke and chuff boards help out a lot. Odyssey motor boards have code specific to an engine. If Lionel releases that code so after market parts can be made, that works for me. I've lost 3 radio boards due to board failure and one motor board due to a pinched wire. Not bad for 30 years of command control. I just want options to keep everything running. Accessories like the tmcc cars and the backshop have unique code. My whale car does not work with c08 code in the radio board. I tried it when the board failed. Lionel had to program a radio board with whale code to bring the car back to life.
It's not the end of the world, but options are nice when a failure occurrs.
I had a CO6 "aqua" board in my cart that I was hoping would fix the lighting in my Shark car and now it is gone of course. I wish Lionel would just fess up on what they did with all those boards they had.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Actually, I have a way to do the whistle steam. I may have to dust off that project now that we are faced with this situation. Biggest hurdle is the shortage of the processor I'd be using, but I'm guessing those will appear at sometime in the near future.
John,
No dusting needed. You can use an SFC1 or SFC2 (that went into an engine with whistle steam) to add it to any engine. It just listens for the whistle signal on the serial data line as far as I can tell. It works on the CAB-1L when *NOT* in quilling whistle mode too. I haven't tested this specifically, but I think it could be used to add whistle steam to TMCC locomotives too.
@Catonsville Central Railway posted:I think we should all just take a deep breath of fresh air...
...and then let it out in a agonizing cry of terror.
Just kidding. Lets face it, Lionel must have some sort of plan here. Whether they're selling off all the old electronics stock to a 3rd party such as Trainz, or whether they are keeping hold on all the remaining inventory for future repair work to prevent folks (like us) from buying up and hoarding all of the remaining stock, I don't know. But I can feel pretty confident that Lionel, which is in the market to make a profit, would not simply toss thousands and thousands of dollars of inventory in a dumpster - especially inventory that they could charge a greater premium for if people learned that there was only a limited supply and it would be going away.
If they were axing all the electronics inventory simply to make space, it doesn't make sense why they would keep inventory of all the other many parts for old locomotives.
Lionel is a LLC and you never know what the bean counters might be thinking. Yes there was considerable $ in that inventory but it is long paid for and if they believe fixing up older locos is hurting new sales that might be enough for them to just dump them. It is the new product that is their bread and butter.
This may have been better for another thread, but since it is relevant to the discussion, might be better here. If let's say Lionel with older legacy boards, etc, opened it up to a third party vendor at little or no licensing charge (I know, fat chance), allowed them to use the source code encoded in the ASICS, etc, would it be economically practical for a third party firm to do this? I would think the hard part would be getting the ASICS made for a reasonable price given the likely size of the runs (in interesting other thought, could a raspberry pi or arduino single board computer, assuming you have the functional source for the Lionel boards, be used instead of an ASIC, port the functional code to run there (they generally use C++)? I am aiming this at guys like GRJ or other engineering types who have done work like this (I certainly have no clue of the real costs).
@iguanaman3 posted:I had a CO6 "aqua" board in my cart that I was hoping would fix the lighting in my Shark car and now it is gone of course. I wish Lionel would just fess up on what they did with all those boards they had.
I was under the impression that a special version of the C04 code was for aquarium cars, the C06 was for the early GG-1 engines.
From a Mike Reagan post some time back...
(There is a special C04 out there that is specifically programmed for aquarium cars, giraffe cars, etc. Has to do with the electroluminescent panel in these cars, must request from Lionel as a special order piece)
I think the "special order" ship has probably sailed.
Have you tried a C08 in that car. If there's a missing function, it may be possible to sky-wire it.
Lionel knows these boards are worth list price at this point and couldn’t bear to see them sold at 50% off. However, with this new crappy ordering/inventory/billing system they rolled out recently there was no way to prevent it. In comes the idea to zero out the inventory and then reset back after the sale. Instead of fessing up to this (and hear lots of complaining) they will report they heard from the customers and brought the boards back by popular demand. Just watch!
It’s plausible considering the timing.
If they wanted to force us into buying all new they would dump ALL the old parts, not just the boards.
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