Does anyone know where I can purchase a motor control board DCDS-J Motor Driver any tethered version?
Would be great if I could find S-19 code (Lionel P/N 691DCDS117)
Lionel is out of stock and it states Obsolete.
This is for a Lionel 6-11155 Vision Line Steam 2-10-10-2 engine, but I have other larger steam engine that could use similar.
Thanks.
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Something stinks in Parts! Every Legacy DCDS is out of stock at Lionel. I'd call them and ask what's happening!
What's wrong with yours? You may have to consider repairing it if it's not the microprocessor.
I think something like inventory or getting ready for the annual parts sale is happening, every TMCC & early Legacy motherboard is out of stock as well. That's almost impossible!
I will plan to call Lionel in the morning and see what is happening.
I have two that are problems.
First DCDS - when power is applied to track, after maybe .5 seconds, the engine moves forward. The sounds work on the tender (Whistle, etc.). Engine will not reverse. Almost like it is locked in forward. Throttle control on Cab2 does not change or control speed. Hitting the reverse bottom has no effect.
Second DCDS - when power is applied to track, normal start-up sounds, etc. Tender functions all work (sounds, back-up light, rear coupler opens upon request from Cab2.) No movement from motor.
I mentioned the issue with the 2nd DCDS in another tread and was able to verify engine will operate fine with a working spare DCDS-J code 16 that I have. I'm trying to determine which components on the troubled boards that could have failed. No luck yet. Any guidance would be appreciated.
The first DCDS sounds like a FET has shorted, that would be the first thing I checked. I'd be looking at the FET drivers on the second one as well.
I just spoke with Lionel support (parts) this morning (9-16-22). They were told yesterday that these parts will no longer be available from Lionel and they will not be receiving any re-supply. Some of the parts in question, specifically the DCDS boards, were actually out of stock, while others were pulled. They have not been told what will be the disposition of any remaining stock that was pulled.
I have my theories about what is being done, but I will leave that unsaid. Needles to say, I was very sadden by this.
John,
I'll start testing the FETs as you mentioned.
I hope that the ERR boards, or their equivalent, continue to improve and be used as replacement boards when and if the original boards fail. This would be especially true for the early Legacy engines that do not use the current RCDR boards. I guess an option would be to use the newer RCDR boards and hope they interface without too much effort... Has anyone else tried this on the early VisionLine engines that still used the DCDS?
Wow, that's a bummer! There is no replacement for early Legacy DCDS boards, if one of those fails, you have a shelf queen!
That makes absolutely no sense!
Actually if you search on all the electronics used from early Legacy back you will see virtually all items are NLA. That includes RxLCs, Audio, audio power, AD20s, DCDS, DCDE, AC Regulators and associated motherboards.
Trains made before the last ten years have been declared obsolete. Not my term.
Post War fans have been proven correct. Command control trains are fast becoming shelf art.
This not only affects Lionel trains but many made by Atlas, Weaver, 3rd Rail, and K-Line that used Lionel modular electronics.
Pete
If anyone has information on who or where these "obsolete" parts go, and would be willing to share, I'd be very grateful.
I just saw the same. All the radio boards are out of stock - r2lc, r4lc, LCRUs. They are all gone. How can there be no boards available for TMCC? I hope Lionel clarifies what is going on. The parts just didn't disappear. They must be going somewhere. Now the only parts that are available are the RCMC boards.
@Joe Fermani posted:How can there be no radio boards available for TMCC?
Apparently, simply by decree! 
Could the end of ERR items be next?
Just trying to put 2 and 2 together.
Option 1, Lionel knows the parts sale coming up could deplete low stock already they might want/need for repairs. So, they pulled it early to prevent them getting sold out at the sale.
Option 2, someone like Trainz, who I also heard that possibly picked up the parts business and stock from North Lima, well maybe they made or got an offer from Lionel on these now older parts??
I think that (Trainz taking them) would be a mixed bag. Good we could get those parts that have been held hostage and North Lima kinda fell apart there in the end as a business, and the downside, Trainz has the parts and can charge whatever they want to make a profit. No half off sale, and likely no way of them replenishing once exhausted.
Given the future that electronics are getting hard to source- especially older obsolete parts, and Lionel has long gone to newer electronics and platforms- the engines are out of warranty long ago anyway, this is Lionel's way of slowly weening off their end of support on older product.
To be fair, I saw this as kind of warning shot across the bow. They didn't explain it, but again, knowing how many of us had been buying lots of electronics and components for upgrades at the sale, they could have an "out clause" to exclude those items.
http://www.lionel.com/articles...ual-Parts-Sale-2022/
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I think something like inventory or getting ready for the annual parts sale is happening, every TMCC & early Legacy motherboard is out of stock as well. That's almost impossible!
John:
This has been an issue for some time, but it sounds like it has gotten worse. I had a dead motherboard for a Legacy private run C420 right out of the box a couple of years ago and had to cannibalize a stock C420 to replace the motherboard.
Pat
Well, it's a very disconcerting shot, that's for sure. In one fell swoop we can no longer service TMCC or early Legacy locomotives!
Hopefully, the MTH PS/3 upgrade kits come back on the market so we can get those old beasts running again. 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Wow, that's a bummer! There is no replacement for early Legacy DCDS boards, if one of those fails, you have a shelf queen!
That makes absolutely no sense!
Couldn't agree more. I fear that the same applies to motherboards, as I am also unconvinced that Lionel will be offering any replacements.
Lionel needs to state its position concerning these issues and explain why it arrived at its position to all of its customers. Maybe Lionel believes that if you can't repair one of their engines, you will be forced to buy a new one to replace it. 
Pat
Can you substitute ERR Co. boards to avoid having a shelf queen?
For Legacy R4LC or DCDS boards, you're out of luck. For TMCC, you can use the ERR R4LC-C08 TMCC receiver and the Cruise Commander M to replace a dead DCDS.
I just ordered a Railsounds power board from Trainz. I bet they are now in the older Lionel electronic parts business. It shows in stock and I have received a confirmation e mail. Price same as Lionel $40.00. ERR just got a bit of business from me also.
Richard
It appears impossible to actually find any specific part on Trainz, and I thought Lionel's parts site was bad. 
Yikes. I just looked at my cart I was saving for the sale. In the last week all railsounds 4 boards and r2lc versions went out of stock. Lionel just saved me a bunch of money. Bummer. I wonder if they will return after the sale?
If Lionel thinks its better for their bottom line to no longer carry parts for older stuff, it will hurt them more than they think. I can't even get parts for current production items! My wife got me the vision line 3 pack of PRR sound cars last Christmas. She bought them over the summer and held it for Christmas. When I opened it over the holidays, I found the volume control was broken. Called Lionel and they had no parts to send me. It was less than a year old. I had to hand make a solution to fix the car. I even emailed Ryan at Lionel about the parts and he assured me Lionel was stocking parts and that they would be available. He said the parts department was still behind from the pandemic. I don't see it getting better. This will make me think twice about buying older tmcc/legacy locomotives as well as new stuff. If something dies, its a shelf queen. How many threads have we seen where engines were not assembled correctly at the factory? Pinched wires, frayed cables, loose screws under the hood are ticking time bombs. One false move and a dead short will blow a board you can't replace. I really enjoy all the new products but if Lionel is not going to support them, whats the point?
GRJ and others.....You have to use the items name not the actual part number. I hope trainz address that.
Richard
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The first DCDS sounds like a FET has shorted, that would be the first thing I checked. I'd be looking at the FET drivers on the second one as well.
John,
Is there a way to test these while they are in place on the boards? I went on line to see how to test FETs, but all examples I see are with the FETs removed.
When I test in place, I get .515 volts across D-S on the P series and 2.06 volts across D-S on the N series.
I get no dead short from pin to pin. I do get continuity from center pin to metal heat sink plate.
I'm not sure I'm doing this right.
The reason why they want you to test out of the circuit is the fact that #1 many FETs have a built in snubber diode to protect the FET junction. Hence "When I test in place, I get .515 volts across D-S on the P series and 2.06 volts across D-S on the N series." exactly- you are potentially measuring that diode and yes, that diode is reverse polarity from N channel VS P channel. To be effective- you have to test BOTH polarities with the meter on a given FET to ensure the diode and the junction are intact.
Gate should and hopefully would be open circuit to anything and the tab is also known to be common with the center pin.
Point being, just from where I stand, your test data points that the FETs might be OK, and the problem is elsewhere. You didn't see a dead short, they weren't obviously cooked, and the board did not short the power supply coming in. That then lands the fault potentially in the logic area- where it is much harder to repair or fix- let alone troubleshoot and may not be possible using simple techniques.
But that's just my $2 (hey inflation).
Testing for a sorted FET in circuit is no problem, it's just looking for an open that's an issue.
For an operational test, you can also monitor the gate voltage and see if they're getting activated and not working.
In any case, if in total doubt, I replace the $2 parts and see if that fixes it.
Looks like HO is looking better & better to me. Getting parts from Trainz, get ready to pull your hair out.
@Rppoind posted:GRJ and others.....You have to use the items name not the actual part number. I hope trainz address that.
Richard
In that case, they don't have any of the early Legacy parts, and no R2LC or R4LC either. Motherboards? I have a lot more TMCC/Legacy motherboards than they do! AAMOF, I have more of all those parts I looked for than they do!
@irish rifle posted:…Maybe Lionel believes that if you can't repair one of their engines, you will be forced to buy a new one to replace it…
Ding, ding, ding…we have a winner! It seems planned/forced obsolescence is a recurring and dominant theme for the electronic/digital world in which we live. 🤬
Bill
I noticed that a lot of my favorite parts were out of stock/unavailable too. I mostly buy RS4 boards and related and always thought that someday Lionel could just stop selling them for whatever reason. I was even pleasantly surprised the past couple years when they were willing to burn some of may favorite RS4 soundsets after they showed non-availability. If this is truly the end of Lionel being a source of TMCC parts and spares, it was a good run! Glad I was able to get some of those parts for my projects.
I did some quick searches and it looks to me all TMCC and early Legacy electronics are gone. That includes everything to do with Railsounds 5.5 and earlier. Oddly they still seem to have parts relating to the Odyssey 1 magnetic tach system. There is no way Lionel could have sold out of all these parts in such a short time without something being left. That leads to two possible conclusions: Lionel doesn't want these parts included in the 50% off parts sale and they will be back after the sale or more likely they have sold it all to someone just like they sold their old parts to North Lima Trainworks years ago. Wouldn't it be great if Mike Regan bought them to add to his MTH parts business? I can hope anyhow.
Ken
@kanawha posted:Wouldn't it be great if Mike Regan bought them to add to his MTH parts business? I can hope anyhow.
I'm not seeing the MTH parts site offering Lionel parts, but maybe I'm just short-sighted! 
I smell a rat and it’s orange and blue (L). I’ve been waiting months to purchase a discounted board for a loco and now this. They just keep finding new ways to drive me out of this hobby.
@Steims posted:I smell a rat and it’s orange and blue (L). I’ve been waiting months to purchase a discounted board for a loco and now this. They just keep finding new ways to drive me out of this hobby.
Then why are you still here?
The component shortage has highlighted a big problem with older electronics. The fact is that they have a gold mine in hand and may not be able to get replacements inexpensively going forward.
Now, sneaky is a good term. A professional public service announcement would go a long way toward helping us understand what's happening, but so far we hear nothing but crickets -- and they're not digitized electronic ones emanating from a speaker.
Mike
I had parts in my cart yesterday that were available but not today. Wow someone bought a ship load o parts. I was awaiting the Sept 25th half off sale. Wonder if that is the reason they took down certain parts?
@laz1957 posted:I had parts in my cart yesterday that were available but not today.
I just got a shipping notice for my most recent order, it's the last electronic parts. I just ordered everything, sorry folks.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I just got a shipping notice for my most recent order, it's the last electronic parts. I just ordered everything, sorry folks.
We know that is a bunch of BS. Why would you ever buy all the boards when we know darn well you can fix boards for nickels on the dollars. Nice try GRJ. 
I remember when Lionel stated no train left behind. Apparently that's out the window now.
@feet posted:I remember when Lionel stated no train left behind.
I don't. When was this statement made, and by whom?
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:I don't. When was this statement made, and by whom?
Mike
Lionel made that statement years ago when they switched from TMCC to Legacy. Who actually made that statement I don't remember.
They didn't leave them behind, they dropped them in a bucket.
In reading through this thread, it looks like getting essential early Legacy and TMCC parts is not looking good. Even though I operate only 7 engines, they are all Lionel TMCC/Legacy, pre-2012.
If things get any worse with Lionel, I would have no hesitation leaving O scale for HO DCC. With my relatively small layout, it would entail just taking up the Fastrack and replacing it with HO track. Then selling off the O scale engines, rolling stock, and power, then replacing them with all HO.
I don’t necessarily want to do that. But Lionel may leave me with no choice.
@Yellowstone Special posted:In reading through this thread, it looks like getting essential early Legacy and TMCC parts is not looking good. Even though I operate only 7 engines, they are all Lionel TMCC/Legacy, pre-2012.
If things get any worse with Lionel, I would have no hesitation leaving O scale for HO DCC. With my relatively small layout, it would entail just taking up the Fastrack and replacing it with HO track. Then selling off the O scale engines, rolling stock, and power, then replacing them with all HO.
I don’t necessarily want to do that. But Lionel may leave me with no choice.
And that's what I intend to do, HO. I have several thousand dollars worth of Lionel trains.
I'll probably lose my shirt but won't have to worry about lack of parts.
Am I missing something, or is there a law that states you can’t put DCC in a Lionel, or other 3 rail engine??…why do you have to drop down to H.O.?…
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Am I missing something, or is there a law that states you can’t put DCC in a Lionel, or other 3 rail engine??…why do you have to drop down to H.O.?…
Pat
Pat: “ . . . drop down to H.O.?”, or climb up to HO? 
I thing one thing everyone is missing is that, Lionel has never had replacement parts manufactured separately.
Parts come from extra whole locomotives that Lionel orders from the original production run. Then they disassemble these locomotives to fill the parts bins.
It's not surprising they are running out of parts for 10+ year old locomotives. Especially with the "parts sale" giving folks more reason to "stock up" on parts they don't need, just in case.
Meanwhile someone has a drawer full of stuff" just in case" and the guy with the dead locomotive is s.o.l.
On a side note. This is also a good reason to relegate the postwar power for accessories and get a modern transformer with a fast acting breaker to protect those obsolete electronics.
@Yellowstone Special posted:Pat: “ . . . drop down to H.O.?”, or climb up to HO?
For most people HO (1:87) trains are smaller than O (1:48). Maybe yours aren't?
Mike
@Yellowstone Special posted:Pat: “ . . . drop down to H.O.?”, or climb up to HO?
🤣🤣🤣🤣…..definitely drop down,…it’s getting harder to see O stuff,….I doubt HO is an improvement……
Pat
If it gets too bad, then either make my own electronics, adapt other brands, or worst case, just go live steam, or the cheater way- compressed air.
Hoping it doesn't get that bad.
@RickO posted:I thing one thing everyone is missing is that, Lionel has never had replacement parts manufactured separately.
Parts come from extra whole locomotives that Lionel orders from the original production run. Then they disassemble these locomotives to fill the parts bins.
It's not surprising they are running out of parts for 10+ year old locomotives. Especially with the "parts sale" giving folks more reason to "stock up" on parts they don't need, just in case.
Meanwhile someone has a drawer full of stuff" just in case" and the guy with the dead locomotive is s.o.l.
On a side note. This is also a good reason to relegate the postwar power for accessories and get a modern transformer with a fast acting breaker to protect those obsolete electronics.
Pretty sure that didn’t apply to electronics Rick. I doubt train manufactures are making the boards or motors for that matter and while it may be less expensive to have boards made in Asia, they can be made in the US or many other places on the planet. Wasn’t that long ago I was making my own circuitry.
Lionel didn’t run out of all these parts, they simply decided to clear their shelves. Where they went is open to speculation.
Pete
Worse case scenario, if it’s got a DC can motor of some type, a 59 cent bridge rectifier, and it WILL go again,……when I build an engine, I’ll run it on a rectifier for a shake down anyways, ….and I’ll leave it in there until I’m ready to proceed with electronics …..
Pat
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:For most people HO (1:87) trains are smaller than O (1:48). Maybe yours aren't?
Mike
Geez. I was merely hinting to the concept that since more model railroaders are HO than any other scale, many of them would view moving from O scale to HO, a step up.
@Yellowstone Special posted:Geez. I was merely hinting to the concept that since more model railroaders are HO than any other scale, many of them would view moving from O scale to HO, a step up.
You're probably right. We're doomed.
Would the last one leaving 'O' please make sure to turn out the lights on the way out? And, make sure that this Forum is shut off as well while you're at it.
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:You're probably right. We're doomed.
Would the last one leaving 'O' please make sure to turn out the lights on the way out? And, make sure that this Forum is shut off as well while you're at it.
Mike
Seems like you have an antagonistic pattern to you Mike. Maybe you should go play with your trains.
@Norton posted:Pretty sure that didn’t apply to electronics Rick. I doubt train manufactures are making the boards or motors for that matter and while it may be less expensive to have boards made in Asia, they can be made in the US or many other places on the planet. Wasn’t that long ago I was making my own circuitry.
Pete
Pete,
Have you tried buying components lately to stuff into the boards? The present widespread shortage is not helping this situation.
It might be that Lionel doesn't want to let go of everything just in case they can't get any more.
Mike
@Steims posted:Seems like you have an antagonistic pattern to you Mike. Maybe you should go play with your trains.
No antagonism here. Just stating the facts as others before me in the thread have presented them -- in order to make sure that we have them clear.
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Pete,
Have you tried buying components lately to stuff into the boards? The present widespread shortage is not helping this situation.
It might be that Lionel doesn't want to let go of everything just in case they can't get any more.
Mike
Well, I'm not Pete, but AAMOF, I've been buying components throughout the pandemic and parts shortages. However, I don't think that has anything to do with what Lionel is doing. The boards that were pulled were not ever going to be produced again, they're at least ten years old.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, I'm not Pete, but AAMOF, I've been buying components throughout the pandemic and parts shortages. However, I don't think that has anything to do with what Lionel is doing. The boards that were pulled were not ever going to be produced again, they're at least ten years old.
John,
I'm glad you've been able to get your parts. We have 35,000 F-150's sitting in parking lots here in Detroit waiting for parts that aren't being made fast enough. And it's not just Ford and not just Detroit and not just cars. Many industries are having this kind of big trouble.
If the boards that Lionel has pulled from sale are never going to be made again why is there a problem? That inventory wouldn't last long anyway if this were the case. Wouldn't it be better to cut your losses right now and start installing DCC if that's the hand you're being dealt, by Lionel or otherwise?
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:No antagonism here. Just stating the facts as others before me in the thread have presented them -- in order to make sure that we have them clear.
Mike
Well, we don't have all the "facts" as of now. Nobody here knows exactly why Lionel pulled all those parts.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, we don't have all the "facts" as of now. Nobody here knows exactly why Lionel pulled all those parts.
My point precisely.
Let's not get carried away until we know what's really happening.
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:My point precisely.
Let's not get carried away until we know what's really happening.
Mike
Mike, ….go have a Coke and a smile, …..it’ll be alright buddy!….the trains will go around, and the F150’s will get built…..😉
Pat
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Wouldn't it be better to cut your losses right now and start installing DCC if that's the hand you're being dealt, by Lionel or otherwise?
Don't you guys ever get tired of beating the DCC drum? You'd think it came down from a mountain on stone tablets! 
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:John,
I'm glad you've been able to get your parts. We have 35,000 F-150's sitting in parking lots here in Detroit waiting for parts that aren't being made fast enough. And it's not just Ford and not just Detroit and not just cars. Many industries are having this kind of big trouble.
My understanding of the problems in the auto industry is that many of the safety system and emissions controls are based on circuitry that they have long been warned by component manufacturers would soon be obsolete.
Rather that redesign those with more modern processors, system-on-a-chip, and component packages, and have them undergo recertification, they chose to roll the dice.
If the boards that Lionel has pulled from sale are never going to be made again why is there a problem? That inventory wouldn't last long anyway if this were the case. Wouldn't it be better to cut your losses right now and start installing DCC if that's the hand you're being dealt, by Lionel or otherwise?
I think part of the problem is that there just isn’t much on the market that can supply the amount of current that the 3-rail O-scale motors and drive trains demand. This is largely because the two biggest players couldn’t play nice in the same sandbox.
Seems that we were all speculating on what is going on with the Lionel replacement boards. Was this just a cost savings move for the upcoming 50% Part Sale or something else. So, I called Lionel directly and spoke with Kristen who was in the know. Here is what I took away from our conversation:
Boards were pulled deliberately/intentionally. Why? Age, make room for new parts coming in, etc.
Will they be back available after sale? No
Are they going to a third party like North Lima? No because North Lima is closed.
She said there will be an upcoming announcement regarding the boards.
Ugggghhh!!!! Please don't shoot the messenger.
Thank you Steims, for doing that. Looks like those of us who run TMCC and early Legacy locos are screwed, if they peter out and require new boards. 😳
@Steims posted:Boards were pulled deliberately/intentionally. Why? Age, make room for new parts coming in, etc.
Will they be back available after sale? No
Somebody better keep an eye on the dumpster behind the NC headquarters.😉
@Steims posted:Seems that we were all speculating on what is going on with the Lionel replacement boards. Was this just a cost savings move for the upcoming 50% Part Sale or something else. So, I called Lionel directly and spoke with Kristen who was in the know. Here is what I took away from our conversation:
Boards were pulled deliberately/intentionally. Why? Age, make room for new parts coming in, etc.
Will they be back available after sale? No
Are they going to a third party like North Lima? No because North Lima is closed.
She said there will be an upcoming announcement regarding the boards.
Ugggghhh!!!!
Why not try to reduce inventory via selling them during the sale, and then purge the stock. Lots here doesn't make sense.
@superwarp1 posted:Why not try to reduce inventory via selling them during the sale, and then purge the stock. Lots here doesn't make sense.
I agree. Let's hope somebody like Scott Mann made a deal with Lionel to bring those boards under the ERR umbrella. A company with a focus on Lionel locomotive electronics upgrades. Seems like a fit.
@Steims posted:I agree. Let's hope somebody like Scott Mann made a deal with Lionel to bring those boards under the ERR umbrella. A company with a focus on Lionel locomotive electronics upgrades. Seems like a fit.
The real silver lining would be if Lionel allows whoever is taking over full right to make their own replacements as the parts do indeed become obsolete without a need for a license from Lionel. Much like vendors of Post War parts can make reproductions.
If Lionel is simply transferring the parts for resale and doesn’t allow this change then they will eventually disappear and those four figure Vision engines will be relegated to running around silently with full wave bridges.
Example now is you can no longer get any parts for your JLC Big Boy.
Pete
@Steims posted:So, I called Lionel directly and spoke with Kristen who was in the know. Here is what I took away from our conversation:
...She said there will be an upcoming announcement regarding the boards.
I also spoke with her earlier about this. Did she say how this communication announcement will happen?
I have a lot of TMCC engines. I'm not worried about those as I have options with ERR. What I want is a path forward for keeping my early Legacy engines ( i.e. JLC, early Vision-Line, etc. ) fully operational. This would include the sounds and light functions that came with the engines. And as a bonus, maybe there might be some additional capabilities. But again, these improvements are low on my priority list.
I am not interested in getting rid of my current trains so I can purchase new ones of the same engine, even with additional choice of road names, better sounds, more smoke options, etc.. I know I could do a full Legacy upgrade, that's not what I am after either. I'm happy with what I have. Otherwise I would not have purchased those items.
Further more - I am disappointed that Lionel did not have the foresight to see the pain this would cause to their customers. Lionel should have had the communications ready at a more appropriate time, rather than the user community contacting Lionel asking questions, posting concerns on this forum and elsewhere, asking why was this done this way, etc. going on a rant and then addressing this.
Right now, all I want is to get a DCDS-J S19 code motor driver for my Vision Line 6-11155 so I can once again enjoy this engine with all of its original options.
If someone does take over the inventory, I hope they are provided a way to program the DCDS-J boards with the right code. You can't just get one and have everything work correctly - lighting, and speed of the engine come to mind.
As a service center a courtesy notification would have been nice!
Jim
Since they are not attending York the “announcement” certainly won’t be there. They probably factored in it’s late in the gardening season and there are way too many rotten tomatoes laying around.
I agree with Dave G. Although I would say that the user community is stating justified and legitimate complaints rather than “going on a rant” and this was still no way for Lionel to handle it.
I’m just a small user with only a few of the affected locomotives, but am still hoping for a viable solution, even though the possibilities are speculative at this point. But I’m not holding my breath and am only glad I don’t have dozens of these engines like some collector/operators have.
@Yellowstone Special posted:I agree with Dave G. Although I would say that the user community is stating justified and legitimate complaints rather than “going on a rant” and this was still no way for Lionel to handle it.
You are correct Vern. Rant was not the correct word to use.
At this point pretty much any TMCC engine with DC motors can be kept operable with ERR boards. Nowhere near as economically and without road and cab number talk but running. If your audio or audio power board fails you have to get a ERR Railsounds board. 125 bucks vs 20 bucks sale price.
Right now there is no simple inexpensive option for early Legacy. Those products and their owners have been left out to dry.
Pete
This happens a lot more than you would think, and the problem is there comes a point where keeping stock of parts is more expensive than it is worth (and I am not defending Lionel or condemning them). The problem is when you are talking engines 10 years or older (which ironically are obviously more likely to fail) , they have to keep boards around and if they run out, may not even be able to get them made again in any kind of a cost basis. The boards have some standard components I would assume, but there are also custom chips on there, ASICS and the like (not an engineer, and GRJ is likely gritting his teeth; that's okay, my dad wherever he is will be as well
. I do know that even if the same company that made the boards in the first place could make more, they would charge an arm and a leg (and a new company that might have to re-engineer the board to replace standard components that no longer exist, would be really expensive).
What we have here is what you see with appliances and the like, manufacturers assume that when the units fail, that people will buy a new one (and here I am talking things like the control boards they use in washers and everything else). They do something similar to Lionel, in that when they produce new models the boards are not the same as the older versions. So they keep boards for a particular model x years past the new model introduction, to fulfill warranty claims, then don't have them any more. Lionel prob figures that an engine that is 10 years old (or older), that if the person can't get new boards, they will buy a newer version of a similar prototype. Like the appliance companies, they don't think "Gee, these are expensive units, and maybe they should last a lifetime", they think "Okay, I made my money on the model, I kept the parts around for X years, my job is done".
BTW it isn't just electronics, I have a whirlpool tub that the faucet base may be shot. I talked to the company that made it, and they were like "Oh we stopped having parts for that 15 years ago". They assumed you will just go out and replace the whole tub (not even talking electronics, talking basic plumbing). Tubs like this are a big item, and people keep them a long while..and they don't make replacing that base easy, either.
The reason people mention DCC is easy, because it is a standard you have multiple vendors out there and because it is a standard you can likely get replacement/upgrade boards (I also understand that standardization comes with a *, because there are extensions in some brands that other brands won't support, like wrinkles on sound and so forth). In terms of power, there are DCC units that handle 2 rail O, with modern can engines the power consumption shouldn't be a problem (I doubt anyone makes a DCC board than can handle a pullmore motor). Most engines made in the last 20 years will likely be can motors though. Even if you lose some features, you can still have things like speed control and sound with DCC if you have to switch to another vendor's decoder/boards.
You make some good points, bigkid. In the case of Lionel O scale, it’s too bad it’s gone from lifetime conventional locomotives back in the day, to planned obsolescence after command control was introduced. Or, is it unplanned obsolescence? 🤔
Maybe I should have stuck with my conventional Pullmor locomotives and stayed satisfied with those. But darn it, I like the modern features! 😉
@superwarp1 posted:Why not try to reduce inventory via selling them during the sale, and then purge the stock. Lots here doesn't make sense.
I am thinking they do not want us to fix up old engines and instead buy the new bluetooth ones. If selling those old parts means losing new sales they do not want to sell them. I can't think of any other reason for pulling them days before the sale. It was a business decision no matter what other excuse they may make IMO.
@Yellowstone Special posted:You make some good points, bigkid. In the case of Lionel O scale, it’s too bad it’s gone from lifetime conventional locomotives back in the day, to planned obsolescence after command control was introduced. Or, is it unplanned obsolescence? 🤔
Maybe I should have stuck with my conventional Pullmor locomotives and stayed satisfied with those. But darn it, I like the modern features! 😉
Vern,
I hear ya but it's more like unplanned.
"Planned Obsolescence" was not introduced with command control. If it was how do you explain so many command control equipped units surviving and operating 25 years after their introduction without needing repair?
You've apparently determined that most of them have failed during that time when the opposite is more like the truth - ask the techs here on the forum that fix these things.
If it was planned it would have been 5 max -- and if they intended it to be 5 max then they've clearly failed at it.
As far as your theories about Lionel back in the day, if their products were perfect back then why did Lionel create such a large service network, and have it in place from very early on?
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Vern,
I hear ya but it's more like unplanned.
"Planned Obsolescence" was not introduced with command control. If it was how do you explain so many command control equipped units surviving and operating 25 years after their introduction without needing repair?
You've apparently determined that most of them have failed during that time when the opposite is more like the truth - ask the techs here on the forum that fix these things.
If it was planned it would have been 5 max -- and if they intended it to be 5 max then they've clearly failed at it.
As far as your theories about Lionel back in the day, if their products were perfect back then why did Lionel create such a large service network, and have it in place from very early on?
Mike
Must you again, Mike? I was merely alluding to the fact that back in the middle of the last century, Lionel trains would last and last. I still have mine from 1955 and it works today as well as it did back then, with a little maintenance and some tender loving care, of course. Lionel's service network existed to make repairs on those simple Pullmor motors and other simple components, convenient for its customers. No electronics and "boards" back then. There are fewer trains out there in the population today than there were back in Lionel's heyday. More households had them, they were easier to fix, and were not made overseas.
Today, no. When I acquired my first TMCC engines after the turn of this century, I was hoping they would last and last. But if no electronic parts will be available for them, then nada. The only thing I've determined is that my engines will become shelf queens, if they break down and parts are no long available to fix them.
Really getting tired of your over-thinking and over-analyzing everything that is peculiar to your mindset. So again, please live up to your handle and mellow out.
I think it's official now. This email showed up yesterday.
This is the attached note.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I think it's official now. This email showed up yesterday.
This is the attached note.
Note-Old parts out of stock.pdf
Well now, I guess it's official. Isn't that just great!?!
Thanks for the info, John. I think. 🤔
It has been posted at least once in this thread that there is nothing out there that will handle O scale locos other than the Lionel or MTH stuff.
That is not correct. If you go to DCC, NCE makes a decoder that will handle 4 amps continuouos and 10 stall. They also make a larger one that will handle 8 Amps for G scale. Soundtraxx makes some with sound that will handle 3-4 amps. Lok-sound makes them which is what Sunset is putting in their diesels now. Digitrax has a 5 amp decoder, I think and possible also a 3 amp one. QSI makes the ones that Sunset used until the last few runs. TCS makes a 4 amp decoder. Some of these do not make sound decoders, but you can always add a tiny HO size second one for sound only. You just put a 100 ohm resister across the motor outputs just to allow programming. All the DCC decoders work with any DCC control system. So changing the boards in the loco does not affect the control system.
I have used mostly NCE decoders in many brass locos built in the 60s, 70s and 80s that have open frame motors, and have had no failures that I did not cause myself by bad installation. Remember the electronics in most cases are worth a lot less than the loco itself.
So there are options out there. I have always been very leery of single source systems where on mfg/vendor is the sole supplier.
@prrjim posted:It has been posted at least once in this thread that there is nothing out there that will handle O scale locos other than the Lionel or MTH stuff.
That is not correct. If you go to DCC, NCE makes a decoder that will handle 4 amps continuouos and 10 stall. They also make a larger one that will handle 8 Amps for G scale. Soundtraxx makes some with sound that will handle 3-4 amps. Lok-sound makes them which is what Sunset is putting in their diesels now. Digitrax has a 5 amp decoder, I think and possible also a 3 amp one. QSI makes the ones that Sunset used until the last few runs. TCS makes a 4 amp decoder. Some of these do not make sound decoders, but you can always add a tiny HO size second one for sound only. You just put a 100 ohm resister across the motor outputs just to allow programming. All the DCC decoders work with any DCC control system. So changing the boards in the loco does not affect the control system.
GOOD GRIEF! Can we cease and desist with the DCC stuff? If you have one or two engines that need boards, your idea is to convert your whole layout to DCC and cease running your TMCC/Legacy locomotives! You guys really need to give the DCC drumbeat a rest or keep in a thread where it's on-topic!
the topic was that you can't get parts for these single source systems. I merely offered a suggested alternative - with lots of parts sources.
@prrjim posted:the topic was that you can't get parts for these single source systems. I merely offered a suggested alternative - with lots of parts sources.
So, which DCC stuff replaced the DCDS for early Legacy?
The topic is posted in Lionel Service Questions for a good reason, it's about Lionel service parts, not about rebuilding our whole layout and engine fleet!
I guess your idea is we can forget about all those TMCC command switches, the LCS, the Legacy command system, etc. In other words, we build a new layout and operating environment around DCC. You'll pardon me if I don't think your idea has all that much allure for most folks that are running Lionel 3-rail layouts!
Jim, I don’t think conventional DCC is solution for most here. It won’t work concurrently with TMCC or DCS over the rails. What should work is the new Blunami which only relies on track power and signals are passed over the air.
Still waiting for the announcement from Lionel and/or its new partner what to expect for support for older engines. This could be a big win for its customers if they finally agree to allow others to build solutions for equipment they themselves no longer want to support.
Follow the model of the auto industry where at one one time and maybe still applies that they only have to support a product for seven years after first release. Others are allowed to make parts to continue that support without need for a license. End users can select between factory parts or third party parts.
Boards that function like the originals can be made forever. When a part becomes obsolete there are others that can take its place.
Pete
Just to throw this in, and this is not smart a** stuff. Everybody on this part of the Forum already knows the things below. I'm just sayin'.
DCC - if you gotta have a lot of "features" (they'll kill the hobby yet). It works. Don't use it; don't want to. (TMCC was just right.) But it works and a lot of guys know the stuff. # of rails does not matter. Pullmor power not invited.
Straight DC power - as the "features" mean less to me than to most, this really appeals to me. If it comes to desperation and you just want to enjoy your trains, a DC power source and a rheostat, used on electronically stripped-down DC-motored (most of them are DC now) locos will get you power, lights, direction, maybe smoke. DC can run Pullmor motors, too. # of rails does not matter here, either. Center rail Hot, running rails Cold, or vice-versa, or whatever terminology you like.
Straight DC makes you almost immune to electronics supply issues. DC Power source. Rheostat. Polarity switch for direction. Done. Really. Live "transformer control" beats dead Command Control, I'd say.
Most of our higher-end locos are geared OK to well, so they should run steadily - not cruise-steady, but real trains slow down and speed up too (though not as often....). Big Pittman motors in a lot of units - and Pittman is found in all sorts of early-ish O scale equipment.
It will probably never come to DC - partly due to my age - but I could dig it.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:GOOD GRIEF! Can we cease and desist with the DCC stuff?
At least in my case, I wasn't beating the drum for DCC. Interesting question, I thought DCC had trouble with DCS because they both go through the rails, that TMCC/Legacy because it is single way and transmits over house wiring ground it wouldn't have the compatibility problem w dcc (and it is just a question). I was merely pointing out that DCC could be applied to O gauge engines, that's all. DCC would be an option if both legacy and DCS went away, though if that happens it is likely the whole industry would be in trouble.
Aw man, glad I got a couple spares of my favorite RS4 sets. Figured this day would come sooner than later!
The auto industry isn't a particularly good comparison (though I get the reason for the comparison), they tend to produce cars over a long period of time produce a lot of cars. Too, as others pointed out, because of the size of the car market third party people can make money on supplying components for years.
One interesting comparison, we worry about toy trains and the boards that run command control failing. Cars use of technology is a lot more sophisticated, and based on what I know of the industry and personal experience, the electronics don't routinely fail (when they do usually it is things like the car got flooded or shorted, or someone tried jump starting a car and didn't do it right (or as in my case, some nasty rodents got under the hood when a car was in storage, and caused a lot of damage...). It shows that sophisticated electronics aren't necessarily short lived in our train, but the perception is there (and without real information, something Lionel or MTH aren't going to put out there, we don't know).
I don't think this is planned obsolescence as much as the nature of the business. I don't think Lionel or MTH or whatever builds them to fail, I think they build them to fit the business model they have. They likely don't build resiliency into them, would be too expensive. And given the size of the market, keeping boards for older engines and the like just becomes economically a non starter. One of the problem is that the control boards are pretty much custom for each engine (talking legacy here), bc of specific features on an engine. It means if a legacy board fails on an old big boy let's say, you can't swap in a more modern board they have, and likely can't swap a board from another legacy engine even of the same vintage but not the same model (and this is just my impressions, folks, not claiming to be an expert). GRJ and the other engineers will probably grit their teeth at me, but in theory you could have a universal board of sorts that differentiates based on software loaded (for example) that controls the specific features (like DCC extensions), but we don't.
I wonder if there will ever be a legacy version of ERR. They might be able to do a basic Legacy board, but I doubt they would make boards that match the original with all the features, just wouldn't be enough volume I think to have all those board types like having a board for a 12 year old legacy Hudson or whatever. A lot of that depends on how much is common with legacy as well, again I could see a basic legacy board being doable for those unable to get the specific ones. The market IMO is too small to allow customized boards that mimic entirely the original. On the other hand maybe if a third party is really good at this kind of thing, like Milo Minderbinder, they figure out how to make what should be a losing proposition work
You know on my screen, a big panel with posts shows up on the right. There is no listing on each one saying saying only guys with this, or only guys with that are allowed to look at the posts. I assumed that big panel was for all uses to look at and comment on. I don't dig down into specific lionel or other screens. So why not just keep your secret stuff there and let the rest of us read the topics open to all model railroaders.
@bigkid posted:I don't think this is planned obsolescence as much as the nature of the business. I don't think Lionel or MTH or whatever builds them to fail, I think they build them to fit the business model they have. They likely don't build resiliency into them, would be too expensive. And given the size of the market, keeping boards for older engines and the like just becomes economically a non starter. One of the problem is that the control boards are pretty much custom for each engine (talking legacy here), bc of specific features on an engine. It means if a legacy board fails on an old big boy let's say, you can't swap in a more modern board they have, and likely can't swap a board from another legacy engine even of the same vintage but not the same model (and this is just my impressions, folks, not claiming to be an expert). GRJ and the other engineers will probably grit their teeth at me, but in theory you could have a universal board of sorts that differentiates based on software loaded (for example) that controls the specific features (like DCC extensions), but we don't.
I don't think it's planned obsolescence, but it's not nearly as cut-n-dried that you can't use boards from one engine in another engine. Let's take the boards that specifically disappeared from stock, specifically early Legacy modular boards. I pick these as there aren't any good substitutes like there are for TMCC.
You are correct in that you can't freely swap boards between locomotives freely, however there are many common boards. The R4LC boards only have a handful of versions, and the -S03 version works in a vast majority of modular Legacy locomotives. By the same token, a DCDS for one modular Legacy will likely work in many of them. Yes, you may have to give up some lighting features, or add them back with external components, but the basic function of motor drive will work just fine. However, if you have no source of ANY Legacy R4LC version or any Legacy DCDS modules, clearly that avenue is closed.
The argument that inventorying all those older parts doesn't ring true, at least to me. There are FAR more mechanical and cosmetic parts available for the same vintage models, why did only electronic parts suddenly go "obsolete"?
@prrjim posted:You know on my screen, a big panel with posts shows up on the right. There is no listing on each one saying saying only guys with this, or only guys with that are allowed to look at the posts. I assumed that big panel was for all uses to look at and comment on. I don't dig down into specific lionel or other screens. So why not just keep your secret stuff there and let the rest of us read the topics open to all model railroaders.
You really want to go there?
I guess you haven't been paying attention to all the management posts about off-topic threads and posts. Just because you can post in a thread doesn't mean you should, or that your pronouncements are on-topic or germane to the topic. Looking should have illustrated that DCC really doesn't fit into this conversation, but I suspect you already know that.
If you don't dig down into specific Lionel posts, why come to this thread and push DCC. It clearly isn't the answer to the problem, in spite of your claims to the contrary. When I'm repairing Lionel control systems, DCC really doesn't enter into the picture, and I seriously doubt it does for a vast majority of Lionel operators!
In my eyes, the bigger loss are the RailSounds 6.0 boards.
@Yellowstone Special posted:Well now, I guess it's official. Isn't that just great!?!
Thanks for the info, John. I think. 🤔
Ever since the old CTO. CSM. and audio engineer departed. Lionel has felt more like a "toy making company" than a model train manufacturer.
This is why I have no interest in Lionchief 2, 3, 4.7.... or whatever and certainly not that base 3.
There seems constant reinvention of things, either because of lack consideration of the past , or not enough anticipation of the future.
Meanwhile, the things that always worked, paint, audio boards, gearboxes ...., have hiccups along the way.
@rplst8 posted:In my eyes, the bigger loss are the RailSounds 6.0 boards.
Well, the other shoe dropped. I just got a Legacy SD70ACE that cooked it's DCDS. No repairing this one, it had a little fire on one end of the PCB, total destruction. With no parts, it'll have to be downgraded to TMCC to get back on the rails.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I think it's official now. This email showed up yesterday.
This is the attached note.
Note-Old parts out of stock.pdf
What is official? That letter did not address the fact that every Railsound board went out of stock in a day. Where did they go? Into the trash?
The one reason the last two years…I was busy collecting parts and not new engine. Frankly, My train buying days are over - why bother if I can’t get parts …..
@iguanaman3 posted:What is official? That letter did not address the fact that every Railsound board went out of stock in a day. Where did they go? Into the trash?
That's what happened to the RS items in my shopping cart on the website -- POOF!!!
Fingers crossed someone comes up with a solution for the now "obsolete" electronics. At least ERR is still available as an option to repair/upgrade TMCC stuff. Pre RCMC Legacy is kinda screwed now, unfortunately.
25 year old TMCC engines have been obsoleted with a stroke of the Lionel’s computer system with taking all electronic boards/parts out of their inventory. Bottom line is they want us to buy their new engines.
I stopped buying new engines about 15 years ago especially when boards were converted from the simple 24 pin modular boards to a one board set up that has control and sounds in one.
I have a lot of original TMCC engines from the 2000 era from Korea Brass who produced beautiful engines for Lionel.
Just my 2 cents!
@Ted Bertiger posted:25 year old TMCC engines have been obsoleted with a stroke of the Lionel’s computer system with taking all electronic boards/parts out of their inventory. Bottom line is they want us to buy their new engines.
I stopped buying new engines about 15 years ago especially when boards were converted from the simple 24 pin modular boards to a one board set up that has control and sounds in one.
I have a lot of original TMCC engines from the 2000 era from Korea Brass who produced beautiful engines for Lionel.
Just my 2 cents!
Ted,
I certainly second your thoughts. I’m done….enough engines. I’m going to downsize soon. Selling off a vast collection. I will keep a few engines…..Goodbye lionel….it’s been a long run…..imho - A new leader is in order….
@gunrunnerjohn posted:They didn't leave them behind, they dropped them in a bucket.
John, what’s the deal with the universal dcds board. By the way - if you can tell me the part number of the board on the sd70. I can look to see if I have one laying around. I assembled 2 Katy’s from the Lionel parts auction from pieces….at might have one….
Shawn,
I will third your thoughts. Same here! I have enough trains bought over the years and am starting to think about what I want to sell off and keep a decent sized collection. Just sold my Lionel 700E from 1990 for 1/2 what I paid back then and the OGR buyer was a happy customer. More pieces to get posted soon.
I am not in the market for $800 Lionel legacy switchers or $1700 T1’s or $3000 Acela sets. No thank you! My TMCC stuff from the 2000’s are simply beautiful pieces, well made and run fine!
Just my added 3 cents! Inflation!
@Ted Bertiger posted:Shawn,
I will third your thoughts. Same here! I have enough trains bought over the years and am starting to think about what I want to sell off and keep a decent sized collection. Just sold my Lionel 700E from 1990 for 1/2 what I paid back then and the OGR buyer was a happy customer. More pieces to get posted soon.
I am not in the market for $800 Lionel legacy switchers or $1700 T1’s or $3000 Acela sets. No thank you! My TMCC stuff from the 2000’s are simply beautiful pieces, well made and run fine!
Just my added 3 cents! Inflation!
You brought up one point. imagine spending 2500.00 and then winding up in this parts situation. There are some of us - repairing and tinkering is a big part of the hobby …besides I bought a slice of pizza and a can of soda in Manhattan today. It cost me 10 dollars……
I was thinking the other day. I had 3 sets running on a floor layout….and it satisfied me as a child….why do I need a museum of trains??
It would be one thing if the boards were sold out and they cannot make more. It seems like they just got rid of them all.
@Ray Lombardo posted:It would be one thing if the boards were sold out and they cannot make more. It seems like they just got rid of them all.
Less work during the 50% off parts? Years ago they sold off all the VL Big Boy parts. Seen a few at York in stripped down conditions but thinking to myself, "I bet there are some parts on there that someone is looking for on the Lionel site". I know you can't keep everything but this does seem odd that poof they're gone.
@MartyE posted:Less work during the 50% off parts? Years ago they sold off all the VL Big Boy parts. Seen a few at York in stripped down conditions but thinking to myself, "I bet there are some parts on there that someone is looking for on the Lionel site". I know you can't keep everything but this does seem odd that poof they're gone.
Yes, I agree. Generally, I presume that people act rationally and for companies in this business/hobby, my experience is that most of them are also hobbyists and wouldn't go out of their way to screw the customer, quite the opposite typically in fact - most are good, reasonable people. But I struggle to come up with what the potential rationale for this could be.
@MartyE posted:Less work during the 50% off parts?
Than why have a parts sale??? If they are overwhelmed why bother but thank you Lionel for doing the sale.
@superwarp1 posted:Than why have a parts sale??? If they are overwhelmed why bother but thank you Lionel for doing the sale.
Dang I forgot the after that line didn't I?
What parts sale? Lol - Basically, nothing available for my needs. What a joke.They should cancel the thing.
@RickO posted:Ever since the old CTO. CSM. and audio engineer departed. Lionel has felt more like a "toy making company" than a model train manufacturer.
This is why I have no interest in Lionchief 2, 3, 4.7.... or whatever and certainly not that base 3.
There seems constant reinvention of things, either because of lack consideration of the past , or not enough anticipation of the future.
Meanwhile, the things that always worked, paint, audio boards, gearboxes ...., have hiccups along the way.
RickO makes a good point. So Lionel has dumped the parts for TMCC and early Legacy. Who's to say that in another 20 years or so, they won't dump all parts for current Legacy and even the current LionChief, since by then, another new control system or two, will be in place?
Lionel could be starting a vicious cycle, so that if you don't purchase its new, current locomotives, you'll be out of luck if your engines are more than 20 years old. Maybe they plan on dumping old parts that are more than 20 years old each year now, moving forward. Looks like those of us who struggle to keep our older locomotives running are losing the battle from here on out.
a stupid question .... is my Black Vision Line Hudson on the "no parts available" list? that was the most expensive "toy train" which I have ever purchased! Please tell me that it's not true!
@john in western pa posted:a stupid question .... is my Black Vision Line Hudson on the "no parts available" list? that was the most expensive "toy train" which I have ever purchased! Please tell me that it's not true!
You can get the RCMC and engine electronics, no sound boards but they have been NLA for a while, at least the RS6 board has. If you loose sound you might be able to use some other Railsounds lite board but it won’t have cab number and road name specific talk.
The Vision 700E uses second generation Legacy boards.
Pete
@shawn posted:What parts sale? Lol - Basically, nothing available for my needs. What a joke.They should cancel the thing.
So because you don't need or want anything they should cancel it?
@Norton posted:You can get the RCMC and engine electronics, no sound boards but they have been NLA for a while, at least the RS6 board has. If you loose sound you might be able to use some other Railsounds lite board but it won’t have cab number and road name specific talk.
The Vision 700E uses second generation Legacy boards.
Pete
From my understanding, the RS6 boards are programmable. I think that's the purpose of the little 6 pin pico-blade connector. Up until a few days ago (a week?) RS6 boards were still be sold. I received one in July, which is currently on its second visit back to Lionel for the correct programming.
@Yellowstone Special posted:RickO makes a good point. So Lionel has dumped the parts for TMCC and early Legacy. Who's to say that in another 20 years or so, they won't dump all parts for current Legacy and even the current LionChief, since by then, another new control system or two, will be in place?
Lionel could be starting a vicious cycle, so that if you don't purchase its new, current locomotives, you'll be out of luck if your engines are more than 20 years old. Maybe they plan on dumping old parts that are more than 20 years old each year now, moving forward. Looks like those of us who struggle to keep our older locomotives running are losing the battle from here on out.
Having no support for these older TMCC and early Legacy locomotives is definitely concerning. That said, it's conceivable that they could offer an RCMC board that supports the older magnetic based Odyssey system or uses back-EMF like the ERR boards. The serial output could be modified to support older RailSounds boards.
It's also a possibility that they could offer a new programming for the RS Lite boards that will allow them to work with older R2LC and R4LC boards. Hopefully they will also provide them with the RS 5.5 and 6.0 sound sets that are now no longer available.
I predict that either Lionel/ERR will make available parts that at least keep these locos functioning and sounding like something similar, or will permit third parties to make such parts. Probably won't please everyone, definitely won't be cheap but will meet many people's needs. Makes no sense not to do these things, given the long standing loyalty of the Lionel hobbyists.
Plain and simple. All the boards are not being sold by Lionel any longer. What they did with them is still a mystery.
Bottom line, Lionel wants you to buy engines from their new catalogs. Not happening here.
@Landsteiner posted:I predict that either Lionel/ERR will make available parts that at least keep these locos functioning and sounding like something similar, or will permit third parties to make such parts. Probably won't please everyone, definitely won't be cheap
That's a good thought and it would nice for us if that happens. But even if it does, how long would we have to wait for those parts to be made available? What about those of us who have TMCC locomotives that need repairs/parts replacement now? It's still speculative what the outcome will be.
@Landsteiner posted:I predict that either Lionel/ERR will make available parts that at least keep these locos functioning and sounding like something similar, or will permit third parties to make such parts. Makes no sense not to do these things, given the long standing loyalty of the Lionel hobbyists.
It would have made sense to at least give a slight indication that would be happening in John's email above. There was none.
@RickO posted:It would have made sense to at least give a slight indication that would be happening in John's email above. There was none.
Maybe a deal is still being wrangled by the attorneys for both sides but it was contingent on parts transfer. That would stop the parts from being sold right now until the deal and announcement can be made.
I’m just hoping that somebody picks up this product like ERR.
@shawn posted:Ted,
I certainly second your thoughts. I’m done….enough engines. I’m going to downsize soon. Selling off a vast collection. I will keep a few engines…..Goodbye lionel….it’s been a long run…..imho - A new leader is in order….
And who would that leader be? It sounds like wishful thinking to me.
None of them are doing well; they're all just getting by.
Mike
@rplst8 posted:From my understanding, the RS6 boards are programmable. I think that's the purpose of the little 6 pin pico-blade connector. Up until a few days ago (a week?) RS6 boards were still be sold. I received one in July, which is currently on its second visit back to Lionel for the correct programming.
The RS6 boards are programmable. If the software and sound sets were available, I have to tool to program them.
Well, I send an email to Lionel on the 15th when this was coming to light, I got a reply today.
The parts had to go somewhere, why are they being so coy about what they did with them?
Just read the reply. Looks like we're screwed.
First they dump the Legacy 990 control system now this parts nightmare.
Lionel pulled the rug out from under us again. Give me one good reason why I should not switch to HO.
Well at least they didn't discontinue the black writable modu....... never mind.
@MartyE posted:Well at least they didn't discontinue the black writable modu....... never mind.
Don't give' m any ideas as that may be next along with service on the #990 system.
@feet posted:Don't give' m any ideas as that may be next along with service on the #990 system.
Pssstt. The Black Module is discontinued.
Lionel’s reply to GunrunnerJohn gave me a thought. I’m not starting a rumor but what if Mr. Mike Reagen saw this coming and took the initiative to snatch up all the boards. Then Trainworx could be the “go to” locomotive repair facility. They would have the knowledge and they would have all the parts by cornering the market.
Previously I supposed ERR and now I’m namedropping Trainworx. Who else could there be? We know Lionel didn’t dump/destroy these boards.
@Steims posted:Lionel’s reply to GunrunnerJohn gave me a thought. I’m not starting a rumor but what if Mr. Mike Reagen saw this coming and took the initiative to snatch up all the boards. Then Trainworx could be the “go to” locomotive repair facility. They would have the knowledge and they would have all the parts by cornering the market.
Previously I supposed ERR and now I’m namedropping Trainworx. Who else could there be? We know Lionel didn’t dump/destroy these boards.
I can tell you from first hand knowledge, this is not the case……
Pat
@MartyE posted:Pssstt. The Black Module is discontinued.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:
I set the table just for you John...
@harmonyards posted:I can tell you from first hand knowledge, this is not the case……
Pat
And you know this how?
@PRRMP54 posted:And you know this how?
A little birdy landed on my shoulder,……..how in the world do you think I know this??……I talk to the man on a regular basis ……Mike knows as much as we do,….very little ….
Pat
I would have been shocked if Mike was involved, his dance card is pretty full right now I suspect.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I would have been shocked if Mike was involved, his dance card is pretty full right now I suspect.
That’s an understatement,….😁
Pat
Seeing Trainz has bought N. Lima Trainworks, maybe they purchased all these parts also?
They could use them for repair and offer them for sale.
Doug
This nonsense was predictable when MTH pulled the rug out from under loyal customers and LHS's. Lots of moaning and groaning but what's left is more profitable (for the "new" MTH) ... at our expense ... but many still buy their stuff. Now its Lionel's turn ... Once again, Lots of moaning and groaning but what's left is more profitable (for Lionel) ... at our expense ... but many will still buy their super expensive stuff only to get shafted when the "non- american made," no longer available components inevitably take a dump. We don't need fortune cookies or tea leaves to figure out this one!
@john in western pa posted:This nonsense was predictable when MTH pulled the rug out from under loyal customers and LHS's. Lots of moaning and groaning but what's left is more profitable (for the "new" MTH) ... at our expense ... but many still buy their stuff. Now its Lionel's turn ... Once again, Lots of moaning and groaning but what's left is more profitable (for Lionel) ... at our expense ... but many will still buy their super expensive stuff only to get shafted when the "non- american made," no longer available components inevitably take a dump. We don't need fortune cookies or tea leaves to figure out this one!
Not me John. I'm done.
Well John in western pa, yes there has been a lot of warranted "moaning and groaning," because Lionel could have handled this one a lot better. With MTH's recent fragmentation issue and now Lionel's older parts issue, it leads one to question the future of O scale altogether and for good reasons.
vern in northern ut
@trnluvr posted:Seeing Trainz has bought N. Lima Trainworks, maybe they purchased all these parts also?
They could use them for repair and offer them for sale.
Doug
Wasn’t Trainz either……it’s literally a mystery ……
Pat
So we can scratch Trainworx and Trainz then. Who has an inside connection with Scott Mann at 3rd Rail?
@Steims posted:Lionel’s reply to GunrunnerJohn gave me a thought. I’m not starting a rumor but what if Mr. Mike Reagen saw this coming and took the initiative to snatch up all the boards.
I'm thinkin' Mike Reagan is done with Lionel. Otherwise he'd still be there.
@RickO posted:I'm thinkin' Mike Reagan is done with Lionel. Otherwise he'd still be there.
I think he’s done with the people at Lionel but he always had a passion for the product.
This is absolutely crazy, had these gone out of stock one by one I doubt many of us would bat an eye I mean some of this stuff was always bound to go out of stock and components on a board reach EOL. But everything all at once is just a huge sucker punch. This is a huge reason why they need to make the new boards programable, they have already standardized the board to work for both Legacy and LC+ 2.0 if you had to go through the work and rewire something to ERR why not buy a current production PCB. And I'll make the shot across the bow before any one can pull out the BS statement that the reason why they won't license legacy is that then the speed steps won't match, I'm sorry by I have Legacy locomotives with quite literally every iteration of motor driver or receiver board; every different model has it's own speed curve, even from the RCMC to the new LCP3(4) boards I can still have locomotive fight in a MU. In my opinion MTH did a much better job at keeping different locomotives going the same speed at a given speed step and I don't even own a PS2 or 3 locomotive. I could understand if they didn't want to take LCP3(4) boards away from current production items I mean how long have we been waiting for PS2-3 boards as new locomotives roll out? At this point though I doubt they ever plan to do this, frankly as far as I can tell they just don't want our money
Folks mention ERR but Scott in a recent Zoom Meeting where he was the speaker pointed out that he has a 10 year licensing agreement with Lionel for TMCC and ERR which I will say is on the backside of the agreement so the question remains at that point do they kill the TMCC supply chain which supplies manufacturers and the hobbyist or...
@dk122trains posted:Folks mention ERR but Scott in a recent Zoom Meeting where he was the speaker pointed out that he has a 10 year licensing agreement with Lionel for TMCC and ERR which I will say is on the backside of the agreement so the question remains at that point do they kill the TMCC supply chain which supplies manufacturers and the hobbyist or...
Do you know how many more years remain on this agreement?
Well, after listening to all the discussion so far, I've decided two courses of action:
1. Immediately protect all my installed LCRU and RS boards with TVS diodes. Most have them already, and I make a point of installing them where I think they do the most good - at the power leads soldered to the board.
2. Buy up all the e-units I can find, and get them ready for the rush!!!
George
Yup here we are again. Someone at a company made a business decision that someone(s) didn't like. There was the same kind of outcry when ERR died the first time, and when MTH decided to develop DCS instead of adopting TMCC, etc. The list goes all the way back to 1994 when Lionel decided to develop a proprietary control system which they hoped everyone would adopt as the standard.
As the decades have passed, TMCC has become more and more of a closed system. It's Lionel's operating system and they can continue to close up the ranks as they see fit. The same can be said of MTH.
What's interesting is this is primarily a group that demands backwards compatibility and also expects its two main manufactures to offer parts from models manufactured nearly twenty years ago. What everyone forgets is that at some point going back over 70 years the after market has had to step in and offer parts and support after the manufacture has exhausted its' supply or made a business decision to drive product sales.
The O gauge industry also has a habit of taking incredibly talented young individuals away from their respective entrepreneurial developments and putting them into company ranks until an inevitable parting of ways. Frank Pettit, Lou Kovach, Jon Z. (Not even going to try and spell it tonight), John Ricks, the list goes on and on.
What the O gauge hobby has failed to do again and again is to pool its' resources and develop a technology that either supplements or replaces these failed proprietary systems. There is a risk of patent infringement, lawyers, and a steep learning curve involved. We have always counted on the manufactures to "Do the right thing" even if the right thing hurt their business.
In my opinion, the only way this ever gets solved is that we continue to support the factory authorized upgrades such as ERR or Proto 3 upgrade kits, or we finally decided to adapt and find a way to make our trains retrofittable with a more widely available technology or control system.
I love TMCC. I love the way it revolutionized the hobby, I love its' history, and I love the development of the technology. However, I think Lionel might be right in pulling the plug on being the aftermarket source for boards. I personally think its' time for the hobby to band together a figure out what the next step is as opposed to having the decision made for them. That would require people to step up and figure out what's possible and at what cost. I've looked at some of the options and it's not feasible for one individual to undertake any more, but maybe this segment of the hobby can pool its' resources and see what it can come up with.
Sorry for the ramble, but the writing is on the wall. Whether or not we choose to do something about it is up to the members of the hobby.
@Notch 6 posted:Yup here we are again. Someone at a company made a business decision that someone(s) didn't like. There was the same kind of outcry when ERR died the first time, and when MTH decided to develop DCS instead of adopting TMCC, etc. The list goes all the way back to 1994 when Lionel decided to develop a proprietary control system which they hoped everyone would adopt as the standard.
As the decades have passed, TMCC has become more and more of a closed system. It's Lionel's operating system and they can continue to close up the ranks as they see fit. The same can be said of MTH.
What's interesting is this is primarily a group that demands backwards compatibility and also expects its two main manufactures to offer parts from models manufactured nearly twenty years ago. What everyone forgets is that at some point going back over 70 years the after market has had to step in and offer parts and support after the manufacture has exhausted its' supply or made a business decision to drive product sales.
The O gauge industry also has a habit of taking incredibly talented young individuals away from their respective entrepreneurial developments and putting them into company ranks until an inevitable parting of ways. Frank Pettit, Lou Kovach, Jon Z. (Not even going to try and spell it tonight), John Ricks, the list goes on and on.
What the O gauge hobby has failed to do again and again is to pool its' resources and develop a technology that either supplements or replaces these failed proprietary systems. There is a risk of patent infringement, lawyers, and a steep learning curve involved. We have always counted on the manufactures to "Do the right thing" even if the right thing hurt their business.
In my opinion, the only way this ever gets solved is that we continue to support the factory authorized upgrades such as ERR or Proto 3 upgrade kits, or we finally decided to adapt and find a way to make our trains retrofittable with a more widely available technology or control system.
I love TMCC. I love the way it revolutionized the hobby, I love its' history, and I love the development of the technology. However, I think Lionel might be right in pulling the plug on being the aftermarket source for boards. I personally think its' time for the hobby to band together a figure out what the next step is as opposed to having the decision made for them. That would require people to step up and figure out what's possible and at what cost. I've looked at some of the options and it's not feasible for one individual to undertake any more, but maybe this segment of the hobby can pool its' resources and see what it can come up with.
Sorry for the ramble, but the writing is on the wall. Whether or not we choose to do something about it is up to the members of the hobby.
We need a standardized control system like HO has. Should have been like that to start with which would have prevented this disaster.
When all my engines die, I will convert them to DCC, it works for the 2-rail crowd.
Notch 6 historically described what has been a major flaw with O gauge trains, the manufacturers’ inability to come up with a standardized control system, or even compatible control systems that would last.
Feet has stated the solution with HO. A standardized NMRA approved control system (DC/DCC) that’s remained constant and has worked for years, regardless of the manufacturer.
And as feet stated, it’s too bad the O community didn’t take a page out of the HO community’s book. If it had, this O gauge mess wouldn’t be happening.
It's a lot easier to replace a mechanical part. A good machinist can make bushings, axles, etc. We can't make new boards. Lionel has never released the code for any board. The radio boards can be loaded with the correct code as needed. Same goes for the motor driver boards. When I needed a new c13 r2lc, Lionel programed a board and sent it to me. Dumping their remaining stock doesn't help us without the code for the boards. Lionel in one decision has made self queens of all tmcc and early legacy equipment. If it breaks, you are out of luck. And this decision is suppose to encourage us to buy new stuff? Just so Lionel can do it again with current products? No thank you.
Folks like gunrunner John and ERR, can only provide some limited replacement parts. They can't provide aftermarket parts for everything. Their efforts are much appreciated. Lionel should step up and release the code for the boards so new parts could be made.
I don't like it, but I understand why Lionel no longer wants to stock parts for 20 year old engines (#1 being their business model that requires continued sales of new engines). The stated excuse was needing shelf space. Really? RS and DCDS modules are pretty small. You can fit a lot of them on a shelf.
More disturbing is the question as to why did they not simply let supplies sell out over time? In that scenario, we would all order boards as we need them or keep a small supply of commonly used boards on hand. Needed parts would ordered, and hoarding would be unlikely. Now we have 2 other scenarios:
1. They trashed them to "force" us to start buying new engines. Not likely, but it would be a really bad PR move.
2. They are selling remaining stock to a 3rd party. This will be somewhat analogous to announcing that there won't be any gasoline available after this week. As soon as the 3rd party offers them up for sale, the supply will be wiped out by big orders to stock up on "just in case" boards. These will sit unused, and the guy who needs that one board will be out of luck.
Well, at least we have ERR . . . for now.
Bob
@RRDOC posted:More disturbing is the question as to why did they not simply let supplies sell out over time? In that scenario, we would all order boards as we need them or keep a small supply of commonly used boards on hand. Needed parts would ordered, and hoarding would be unlikely. Now we have 2 other scenarios:
Exactly! This seems to be a calculated move to force obsolescence onto the older products. Since all the mechanical parts are still available, the space savings for removing maybe 10% of the inventory doesn't really ring true.
How can they be short of space? Their warehouse looks like the last scene from Raiders of the Lost Arc. They stock almost nothing for new production. Look up the parts for items made in the last five years and only a couple of boards are listed if anything. Zero mechanical parts.
Pete
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Exactly! This seems to be a calculated move to force obsolescence onto the older products. Since all the mechanical parts are still available, the space savings for removing maybe 10% of the inventory doesn't really ring true.
BINGO!
Since I simply don't know, could these engines still be repaired using RS Lite components? I realize it would require swapping multiple components rather than a single one, but I believe RS Lite boards would be able to handle all the lighting or smoke effects present on early Legacy boards?
@Notch 6 posted:Yup here we are again. Someone at a company made a business decision that someone(s) didn't like. There was the same kind of outcry when ERR died the first time, and when MTH decided to develop DCS instead of adopting TMCC, etc. The list goes all the way back to 1994 when Lionel decided to develop a proprietary control system which they hoped everyone would adopt as the standard.
As the decades have passed, TMCC has become more and more of a closed system. It's Lionel's operating system and they can continue to close up the ranks as they see fit. The same can be said of MTH.
What's interesting is this is primarily a group that demands backwards compatibility and also expects its two main manufactures to offer parts from models manufactured nearly twenty years ago. What everyone forgets is that at some point going back over 70 years the after market has had to step in and offer parts and support after the manufacture has exhausted its' supply or made a business decision to drive product sales.
The O gauge industry also has a habit of taking incredibly talented young individuals away from their respective entrepreneurial developments and putting them into company ranks until an inevitable parting of ways. Frank Pettit, Lou Kovach, Jon Z. (Not even going to try and spell it tonight), John Ricks, the list goes on and on.
What the O gauge hobby has failed to do again and again is to pool its' resources and develop a technology that either supplements or replaces these failed proprietary systems. There is a risk of patent infringement, lawyers, and a steep learning curve involved. We have always counted on the manufactures to "Do the right thing" even if the right thing hurt their business.
In my opinion, the only way this ever gets solved is that we continue to support the factory authorized upgrades such as ERR or Proto 3 upgrade kits, or we finally decided to adapt and find a way to make our trains retrofittable with a more widely available technology or control system.
I love TMCC. I love the way it revolutionized the hobby, I love its' history, and I love the development of the technology. However, I think Lionel might be right in pulling the plug on being the aftermarket source for boards. I personally think its' time for the hobby to band together a figure out what the next step is as opposed to having the decision made for them. That would require people to step up and figure out what's possible and at what cost. I've looked at some of the options and it's not feasible for one individual to undertake any more, but maybe this segment of the hobby can pool its' resources and see what it can come up with.
Sorry for the ramble, but the writing is on the wall. Whether or not we choose to do something about it is up to the members of the hobby.
Appreciate what you are saying but one serious issue, from a customer relations standpoint, is that Lionel just didn’t let old stock run off and explain they couldn’t make more due to the factors you mention. Rather it appears they eliminated the supply prematurely, before it was all sold off. In a supply and demand economy, as the supply dries up, generally prices go up and that makes the alternatives you describe more attractive from a consumer standpoint and more lucrative from the perspective of an entrepreneur looking to supply a replacement. What Lionel has effectively accomplished is to foreclose that process, or the possibility of it, and caused an immediate supply disruption. I think this is why people are rightly ****ed off.
I think we all fully expected the day would come when a board we need would no longer be available. We have been seeing that in our appliances for years but I have yet to post onto an appliance repair website about it. So what’s so different here?
These appliances work for hours and hours, some nearly non-stop and we get a lot of good from them. By comparison, my model trains run for minutes a year. I have not got complete enjoyment for what I paid by the time some need repair. I don’t mind repairing them but I have to have parts.
This is what is disenfranchising many of us. A possible move by Lionel to boost new sales might cost them net customers and total sales in the long run.
Right your are, Steims. I think that after word has spread about Lionel's older parts abandonment, it will begin to see sales fall off, starting now.
The reality of it is what it is, ….so instead of sitting around complaining, crying, whining, and swearing the world is coming to an end, there are already folks looking into developing work arounds for the current situation to in which we find ourselves deployed,……as far as Lionel is concerned, the deed is done, and you ain’t gonna change their minds……yes, it sucks, no doubt, but crying about it and trying to figure out the conspiracy theories doesn’t fix a **** thing,……those of you that threw in the towel out the gate, you either have a ton of broken equipment, or the mere thought of a future breakdown has you so petrified, you’re finished ………the immediate suck is for service techs, as they won’t have an instant remedy,….I intend to roll on as normal, listen to, and work with those in the industry with cardinal knowledge that will be looking to develop future products for repairs…….but to those surrendering, lemme know when trash day is at your neck of the woods….I’ll be on the lookout……
Pat
@harmonyards posted:….but to those surrendering, lemme know when trash day is at your neck of the woods….I’ll be on the lookout……
Are you going to share the wealth or keep it all for yourself?
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Are you going to share the wealth or keep it all for yourself?
Judging by the fallout on this thread, we’ll need a moving van, and some helpers,….so yeah, I’ll share the wealth,…..sounds like it’s gonna be the land of plenty,……sheeeeeeeeeezzzz Louise!…
Pat
@harmonyards posted:The reality of it is what it is, ….so instead of sitting around complaining, crying, whining, and swearing the world is coming to an end, there are already folks looking into developing work arounds for the current situation to in which we find ourselves deployed,……as far as Lionel is concerned, the deed is done, and you ain’t gonna change their minds……yes, it sucks, no doubt, but crying about it and trying to figure out the conspiracy theories doesn’t fix a **** thing,……those of you that threw in the towel out the gate, you either have a ton of broken equipment, or the mere thought of a future breakdown has you so petrified, you’re finished ………the immediate suck is for service techs, as they won’t have an instant remedy,….I intend to roll on as normal, listen to, and work with those in the industry with cardinal knowledge that will be looking to develop future products for repairs…….but to those surrendering, lemme know when trash day is at your neck of the woods….I’ll be on the lookout……
Pat
Just curious as who is working on a fix for this problem.
@feet posted:Just curious as who is working on a fix for this problem.
To be announced by those doing the development…..not by I ……I’m just letting you guys know some stuff is being discussed behind the scenes, so some of y’all (ain’t naming any names) can put away the extension cords over the rafters, and put the cyanide pills back in the box,…😉
Pat
@harmonyards posted:To be announced by those doing the development…..not by I ……I’m just letting you guys know some stuff is being discussed behind the scenes, so some of y’all (ain’t naming any names) can put away the extension cords over the rafters, and put the cyanide pills back in the box,…😉
Pat
LOL! Thanks for some info. As you said it is what it is. None of us like the prospect of a shelf queen but I suspect there are always options, just maybe not the ones we hope for.
Derek had a good point and while I disagree with what Lionel does it won’t change anything. Glad to hear someone is looking into some sort of fix, I’ll gladly support anyone that is smart enough to come up with a replacement. Some days I wish I’d go back learn some EE and be able to spend my time looking into stuff like that. But maybe in a different life I’m just a lowly HVAC/R technician 😜
@harmonyards posted:To be announced by those doing the development…..not by I ……I’m just letting you guys know some stuff is being discussed behind the scenes, so some of y’all (ain’t naming any names) can put away the extension cords over the rafters, and put the cyanide pills back in the box,…😉
Pat
Well that's rather interesting and somewhat intriguing, harmonyards. But I will believe it when I see it. Even if these mysterious alternatives come to pass, I imagine it will take some time for them to be implemented and these parts are available to users.
@MartyE posted:LOL! Thanks for some info. As you said it is what it is. None of us like the prospect of a shelf queen but I suspect there are always options, just maybe not the ones we hope for.
Your welcome Marty, ….and to be honest, I don’t get it,…why do some folks think their stuff will be shelf queens?…..I haven’t spoken directly to Scott Mann myself, but I’ve talked to a couple well known techs that say Scott is well stocked with ERR products, …..yeah, I get it , it ain’t legacy, it is a step down, but good golly, ERR has 100 speed steps, John’s stuff will give fan smoke and chuffs, ….I guess not having whistle steam, etc,…is a parking offense??……hogwash, ….I have zero shelf queens, ….and if you ask my buddy Pete, apparently I have a gazzillion engines…🤣🤣🤣
Pat
I purchased 2 Lionchief sets and a stand-alone Lionchief loco with the belief that these items would last a couple of years and basically be disposable. And, like most of us, I do not have money to waste.
As a person who was trained in both college and grad school to do research based on verifiable facts and data, I find this statement "To be announced by those doing the development…..not by I ……I’m just letting you guys know some stuff is being discussed behind the scenes," which was presented without any substantive support to be rumor mongering with some smoke and mirrors mixed in. Just my opinion.
@Yellowstone Special posted:Well that's rather interesting and somewhat intriguing, harmonyards. But I will believe it when I see it. Even if these mysterious alternatives come to pass, I imagine it will take some time for them to be implemented and these parts are available to users.
No mystery Vern. Currently ERR has a solution for just about any TMCC engine. Even first generation Legacy if you can live without whistle smoke and even that is possible with a little work. Swinging bell as well.
Pete, a bit short of a gazzillion.
@Yellowstone Special posted:Well that's rather interesting and somewhat intriguing, harmonyards. But I will believe it when I see it. Even if these mysterious alternatives come to pass, I imagine it will take some time for them to be implemented and these parts are available to users.
You gotta do what you gotta do Vern, ….again, I beg to ask, …do y’all have a mountain of broken equipment that’s holding y’all up?….or is it the prospect of a future component failure that’s got some of you guys in a tail spin??….I’m not being nasty, …but I’m trying to understand why some of you guys ( maybe not you personally?? ) are ready to strap on life preserves like the ship is going down……I do indeed have a lot of engines, and I’m just not anticipating having dead locomotives piled up like cord wood,……
Pat
@modeltrainsparts posted:As a person who was trained in both college and grad school to do research based on verifiable facts and data, I find this statement "To be announced by those doing the development…..not by I ……I’m just letting you guys know some stuff is being discussed behind the scenes," which was presented without any substantive support to be rumor mongering with some smoke and mirrors mixed in. Just my opinion.
Opionons are like you know what….everybody’s got one…..you don’t like it, leave it alone ….
Pat
Stumbled on this thread when I could not find some parts on the Lionel site. One thing this hobby has is a lot of smart people. I think one way or another trains will keep rolling. Even auto MFgs stop making parts at some point but look at all the 10-20 yr old cars in daily use. I’ll stand by to stand by now
I agree that tmcc is a lot easier to repair. My concern was having the correct code in the boards. John's smoke and chuff boards help out a lot. Odyssey motor boards have code specific to an engine. If Lionel releases that code so after market parts can be made, that works for me. I've lost 3 radio boards due to board failure and one motor board due to a pinched wire. Not bad for 30 years of command control. I just want options to keep everything running. Accessories like the tmcc cars and the backshop have unique code. My whale car does not work with c08 code in the radio board. I tried it when the board failed. Lionel had to program a radio board with whale code to bring the car back to life.
It's not the end of the world, but options are nice when a failure occurrs.
@Norton posted:No mystery Vern. Currently ERR has a solution for just about any TMCC engine. Even first generation Legacy if you can live without whistle smoke and even that is possible with a little work. Swinging bell as well.
Actually, I have a way to do the whistle steam. I may have to dust off that project now that we are faced with this situation. Biggest hurdle is the shortage of the processor I'd be using, but I'm guessing those will appear at sometime in the near future.
@harmonyards Hey Pat, you could be just a little more considerate to the members here. Remember there a 5 steps in the grieving process (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance) and everyone is at different points along the way.
Some of us have non-functioning locomotives that are in various states of disassembly and have been waiting for a replacement board for months. As such, this was a big disappointment.
Until we hear that Lionel has provided the source code to a 3rd party and production begins we will have to settle for one-off solutions which require additional time, understanding and risk.
@Steims posted:Until we hear that Lionel has provided the source code to a 3rd party and production begins we will have to settle for one-off solutions which require additional time, understanding and risk.
Sadly, unless I miss my guess, there is no solution forthcoming from Lionel.
The best case scenario appears to be that whatever 3rd party that acquired the stock will offer it for sale. I suspect anyone that bought that varied an inventory has in mind making some money with it, pretty hard to believe they just wanted to hoard it.
Anyone questioning their decision to place pre-orders on Lionel engines? 
The issue isn't that the sky is falling, or that there's going to be mass board failures. The point is this: I've got a Vision Line CC2 that retailed for $1,750. I've run it maybe a half dozen times. If it fails for some reason, either my error or a bad component, I'm not a happy camper. $1,750 for a paperweight isn't cutting it. Maybe that failure never happens, but it very well could. If it does, a generic TMCC board isn't doing the trick, either. I bought that model to have an engine not previously produced that has whistle steam, and blowdown, and a swinging bell. I could have gone and bought some MPC conventional engine if all I sought was an engine to go in circles on the layout. Many others face the same prospect.
I truly get if the components were no longer available, but known available components just disappeared at once. If they sold to a 3rd party, then this thread is really pointless and we'll all be able to hoard parts in no time. However, if they're in the back of a Waste Management truck, Lionel has a big problem from a PR and customer relational standpoint. We (the people spending thousands to tens or hundreds of thousands on product) expected them to run out eventually, not to be thrown away.
If they just tossed them, I'm going to have to reconsider my current pre-orders. I know that sounds rash, but I run my stuff on our Train Garden layout, and that's long, hard running. I need to know Lionel is there when I have a failure (it is when and not if in my circumstance).
My hope is this means little or nothing. Until they give an answer to the people that pay the bills, however, speculation will remain steady.
@Frank Mulligan posted:Anyone questioning their decision to place pre-orders on Lionel engines?
Nope. We're talking engines over 10 years old here.
@Steims posted:@harmonyards Hey Pat, you could be just a little more considerate to the members here. Remember there a 5 steps in the grieving process (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance) and everyone is at different points along the way.
Some of us have non-functioning locomotives that are in various states of disassembly and have been waiting for a replacement board for months. As such, this was a big disappointment.
Until we hear that Lionel has provided the source code to a 3rd party and production begins we will have to settle for one-off solutions which require additional time, understanding and risk.
Guys, it ain’t my place to give out names or companies that I’ve spoken to that are aware of this new found problem, and those folks are doing their own research to find workable solutions …….this is all new, and if they do decide they can market their solutions, I’ll let them make the announcements rather than me misleading anyone with wrong information,……..I mean golly, Lionel just dropped the bomb, you gotta give these folks some time to do their homework??…..no??…
Pat
@MartyE posted:Nope. We're talking engines over 10 years old here.
In eleven years, today’s pre-order engine will be over 10 years old too. 😃
@MartyE posted:Nope. We're talking engines over 10 years old here.
I don't think that matters a lot. There are numerous models that have not been reissued in the last decade, and others that have been reissued with different or fewer features. If Lionel chose to move away from the RS Lite boards they've used for the last decade, there are MANY models from the past ten years that would need reissue should those boards be lost, sold out, or tossed.
@NYCBuffalo posted:Stumbled on this thread when I could not find some parts on the Lionel site. One thing this hobby has is a lot of smart people. I think one way or another trains will keep rolling. Even auto MFgs stop making parts at some point but look at all the 10-20 yr old cars in daily use. I’ll stand by to stand by now
You can't use cars as an example, they make millions of cars a year and cars production runs are measured in easily 5 years or more. Likewise, after 7 years third party people can make replacement parts. Unless you have some exotic car, getting parts for a 20 year old camry or whatever is no big deal.
Trains are low volume and they don't stockpile a lot of parts, pure and simple. I understand people's concerns, you spend a lot on these products and basically there is little support to start with and down the road, you can be left adrift with a 2000 dollar paper weight. I don't know the long term reliability of these engines but in a sense what Lionel is doing is what appliance makers do, you buy a washer, a board fails 6 years after you bought it, and you can't fix it. Thing is a washer at least is 1 item, but you are paying washer prices on a toy train engine, but Lionel et al pretend like it is the same thing.
That said, this is not new. I bought used many years ago a (conventional) Erie Lackawanna MU set. It works, but certain features don't work right. I asked about fixing it with my local guy, he said you couldn't get boards for that unit after a couple of years after they sold them new(this was like 6 years after they were made). Heck, people have said it is hard to get parts for late model legacy and other engines, too. Do I think this is good? No, just saying from all the complaints on here over the years you are playing a form of russian roulette with these engines and how long they work. I would wish that Lionel and MTH would allow third parties to make parts once they decide not to stock them, it would benefit them in the long run...which is likely part of the problem, more than likely people running the show only care about the next earnings sheet. Thing is, if worries about future support stop people from buying new products, then it is a short term concern.
Will something work out, where they allow a third party to sell/rebuild/make replacement boards? I don't know (prob sell more likely than license to build), we can hope.
In the meantime, it is up to the person and their willingness to take on risk they will end up with a paperweight, but again given all the complaints about poor quality, poor service, that have been pretty common on here, doesn't sound like a new issue.
@MartyE posted:Nope. We're talking engines over 10 years old here.
Very true but would you want to buy, say a $2000.00 locomotive knowing that in 10 years or less parts may or not be available?
My answer is absolutely not.
@Andrew B. posted:If Lionel chose to move away from the RS Lite boards they've used for the last decade, there are MANY models from the past ten years that would need reissue should those boards be lost, sold out, or tossed.
They've already taken a step away from the first version of RS-Lite, the current Legacy sound boards are a new design. For one, they no longer have the battery connection.
I think we should all just take a deep breath of fresh air...
...and then let it out in a agonizing cry of terror.
Just kidding. Lets face it, Lionel must have some sort of plan here. Whether they're selling off all the old electronics stock to a 3rd party such as Trainz, or whether they are keeping hold on all the remaining inventory for future repair work to prevent folks (like us) from buying up and hoarding all of the remaining stock, I don't know. But I can feel pretty confident that Lionel, which is in the market to make a profit, would not simply toss thousands and thousands of dollars of inventory in a dumpster - especially inventory that they could charge a greater premium for if people learned that there was only a limited supply and it would be going away.
If they were axing all the electronics inventory simply to make space, it doesn't make sense why they would keep inventory of all the other many parts for old locomotives.
@Joe Fermani posted:I agree that tmcc is a lot easier to repair. My concern was having the correct code in the boards. John's smoke and chuff boards help out a lot. Odyssey motor boards have code specific to an engine. If Lionel releases that code so after market parts can be made, that works for me. I've lost 3 radio boards due to board failure and one motor board due to a pinched wire. Not bad for 30 years of command control. I just want options to keep everything running. Accessories like the tmcc cars and the backshop have unique code. My whale car does not work with c08 code in the radio board. I tried it when the board failed. Lionel had to program a radio board with whale code to bring the car back to life.
It's not the end of the world, but options are nice when a failure occurrs.
I had a CO6 "aqua" board in my cart that I was hoping would fix the lighting in my Shark car and now it is gone of course. I wish Lionel would just fess up on what they did with all those boards they had.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Actually, I have a way to do the whistle steam. I may have to dust off that project now that we are faced with this situation. Biggest hurdle is the shortage of the processor I'd be using, but I'm guessing those will appear at sometime in the near future.
John,
No dusting needed. You can use an SFC1 or SFC2 (that went into an engine with whistle steam) to add it to any engine. It just listens for the whistle signal on the serial data line as far as I can tell. It works on the CAB-1L when *NOT* in quilling whistle mode too. I haven't tested this specifically, but I think it could be used to add whistle steam to TMCC locomotives too.
@Catonsville Central Railway posted:I think we should all just take a deep breath of fresh air...
...and then let it out in a agonizing cry of terror.
Just kidding. Lets face it, Lionel must have some sort of plan here. Whether they're selling off all the old electronics stock to a 3rd party such as Trainz, or whether they are keeping hold on all the remaining inventory for future repair work to prevent folks (like us) from buying up and hoarding all of the remaining stock, I don't know. But I can feel pretty confident that Lionel, which is in the market to make a profit, would not simply toss thousands and thousands of dollars of inventory in a dumpster - especially inventory that they could charge a greater premium for if people learned that there was only a limited supply and it would be going away.
If they were axing all the electronics inventory simply to make space, it doesn't make sense why they would keep inventory of all the other many parts for old locomotives.
Lionel is a LLC and you never know what the bean counters might be thinking. Yes there was considerable $ in that inventory but it is long paid for and if they believe fixing up older locos is hurting new sales that might be enough for them to just dump them. It is the new product that is their bread and butter.
This may have been better for another thread, but since it is relevant to the discussion, might be better here. If let's say Lionel with older legacy boards, etc, opened it up to a third party vendor at little or no licensing charge (I know, fat chance), allowed them to use the source code encoded in the ASICS, etc, would it be economically practical for a third party firm to do this? I would think the hard part would be getting the ASICS made for a reasonable price given the likely size of the runs (in interesting other thought, could a raspberry pi or arduino single board computer, assuming you have the functional source for the Lionel boards, be used instead of an ASIC, port the functional code to run there (they generally use C++)? I am aiming this at guys like GRJ or other engineering types who have done work like this (I certainly have no clue of the real costs).
@iguanaman3 posted:I had a CO6 "aqua" board in my cart that I was hoping would fix the lighting in my Shark car and now it is gone of course. I wish Lionel would just fess up on what they did with all those boards they had.
I was under the impression that a special version of the C04 code was for aquarium cars, the C06 was for the early GG-1 engines.
From a Mike Reagan post some time back...
(There is a special C04 out there that is specifically programmed for aquarium cars, giraffe cars, etc. Has to do with the electroluminescent panel in these cars, must request from Lionel as a special order piece)
I think the "special order" ship has probably sailed.
Have you tried a C08 in that car. If there's a missing function, it may be possible to sky-wire it.
Lionel knows these boards are worth list price at this point and couldn’t bear to see them sold at 50% off. However, with this new crappy ordering/inventory/billing system they rolled out recently there was no way to prevent it. In comes the idea to zero out the inventory and then reset back after the sale. Instead of fessing up to this (and hear lots of complaining) they will report they heard from the customers and brought the boards back by popular demand. Just watch!
It’s plausible considering the timing.
If they wanted to force us into buying all new they would dump ALL the old parts, not just the boards.
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