Motor control board DCDS and other electronic parts not available via Lionel

Something stinks in Parts!  Every Legacy DCDS is out of stock at Lionel.  I'd call them and ask what's happening!

What's wrong with yours?  You may have to consider repairing it if it's not the microprocessor.

I think something like inventory or getting ready for the annual parts sale is happening, every TMCC & early Legacy motherboard is out of stock as well.  That's almost impossible!

I will plan to call Lionel in the morning and see what is happening.  

I have two that are problems.

First DCDS - when power is applied to track, after maybe .5 seconds, the engine moves forward.  The sounds work on the tender (Whistle, etc.).  Engine will not reverse.  Almost like it is locked in forward.  Throttle control on Cab2 does not change or control speed.  Hitting the reverse bottom has no effect.

Second DCDS - when power is applied to track, normal start-up sounds, etc.  Tender functions all work (sounds, back-up light, rear coupler opens upon request from Cab2.)  No movement from motor.

I mentioned the issue with the 2nd DCDS in another tread and was able to verify engine will operate fine with a working spare DCDS-J code 16 that I have. I'm trying to determine which components on the troubled boards that could have failed.  No luck yet.  Any guidance would be appreciated.

The first DCDS sounds like a FET has shorted, that would be the first thing I checked.  I'd be looking at the FET drivers on the second one as well.

I just spoke with Lionel support (parts) this morning (9-16-22).  They were told yesterday that these parts will no longer be available from Lionel and they will not be receiving any re-supply.  Some of the parts in question, specifically the DCDS boards, were actually out of stock, while others were pulled.  They have not been told what will be the disposition of any remaining stock that was pulled.

I have my theories about what is being done, but I will leave that unsaid.  Needles to say, I was very sadden by this.

John,
I'll start testing the FETs as you mentioned.

I hope that the ERR boards, or their equivalent, continue to improve and be used as replacement boards when and if the original boards fail.  This would be especially true for the early Legacy engines that do not use the current RCDR boards.  I guess an option would be to use the newer RCDR boards and hope they interface without too much effort...  Has anyone else tried this on the early VisionLine engines that still used the DCDS?

Wow, that's a bummer!  There is no replacement for early Legacy DCDS boards, if one of those fails, you have a shelf queen!

That makes absolutely no sense!

Actually if you search on all the electronics used from early Legacy back you will see virtually all items are NLA. That includes RxLCs, Audio, audio power, AD20s, DCDS, DCDE, AC Regulators and associated motherboards.

Trains made before the last ten years have been declared obsolete. Not my term.

Post War fans have been proven correct. Command control trains are fast becoming shelf art.

This not only affects Lionel trains but many made by Atlas, Weaver, 3rd Rail, and K-Line that used Lionel modular electronics.

Pete

If anyone has information on who or where these "obsolete" parts go, and would be willing to share, I'd be very grateful.

I just saw the same.  All the radio boards are out of stock - r2lc, r4lc, LCRUs.  They are all gone. How can there be no boards available for TMCC? I hope Lionel clarifies what is going on. The parts just didn't disappear.  They must be going somewhere.    Now the only parts that are available are the RCMC boards.

@Joe Fermani posted:

How can there be no radio boards available for TMCC?

Apparently, simply by decree!

Could the end of ERR items be next?

Just trying to put 2 and 2 together.

Option 1, Lionel knows the parts sale coming up could deplete low stock already they might want/need for repairs. So, they pulled it early to prevent them getting sold out at the sale.

Option 2, someone like Trainz, who I also heard that possibly picked up the parts business and stock from North Lima, well maybe they made or got an offer from Lionel on these now older parts??

I think that (Trainz taking them) would be a mixed bag. Good we could get those parts that have been held hostage and North Lima kinda fell apart there in the end as a business, and the downside, Trainz has the parts and can charge whatever they want to make a profit. No half off sale, and likely no way of them replenishing once exhausted.

Given the future that electronics are getting hard to source- especially older obsolete parts, and Lionel has long gone to newer electronics and platforms- the engines are out of warranty long ago anyway, this is Lionel's way of slowly weening off their end of support on older product.

To be fair, I saw this as kind of warning shot across the bow. They didn't explain it, but again, knowing how many of us had been buying lots of electronics and components for upgrades at the sale, they could have an "out clause" to exclude those items.

http://www.lionel.com/articles...ual-Parts-Sale-2022/

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think something like inventory or getting ready for the annual parts sale is happening, every TMCC & early Legacy motherboard is out of stock as well.  That's almost impossible!

John:

This has been an issue for some time, but it sounds like it has gotten worse. I had a dead motherboard for a Legacy private run C420 right out of the box a couple of years ago and had to cannibalize a stock C420 to replace the motherboard.

Pat

Well, it's a very disconcerting shot, that's for sure.  In one fell swoop we can no longer service TMCC or early Legacy locomotives!

Hopefully, the MTH PS/3 upgrade kits come back on the market so we can get those old beasts running again.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Wow, that's a bummer!  There is no replacement for early Legacy DCDS boards, if one of those fails, you have a shelf queen!

That makes absolutely no sense!

Couldn't agree more. I fear that the same applies to motherboards, as I am also unconvinced that Lionel will be offering any replacements.

Lionel needs to state its position concerning these issues and explain why it arrived at its position to all of its customers. Maybe Lionel believes that if you can't repair one of their engines, you will be forced to buy a new one to replace it.

Pat

Can you substitute ERR Co. boards to avoid having a shelf queen?

For Legacy R4LC or DCDS boards, you're out of luck.  For TMCC, you can use the ERR R4LC-C08 TMCC receiver and the Cruise Commander M to replace a dead DCDS.

I just ordered a Railsounds power board  from Trainz. I bet they are now in the older Lionel electronic parts business. It shows in stock and I have received a confirmation e mail. Price same as Lionel $40.00. ERR just got a bit of business from me  also.

Richard

It appears impossible to actually find any specific part on Trainz, and I thought Lionel's parts site was bad.

Yikes. I just looked at my cart I was saving for the sale. In the last week all railsounds 4 boards and r2lc versions went out of stock. Lionel just saved me a bunch of money. Bummer.  I wonder if they will return after the sale?

If Lionel thinks its better for their bottom line to no longer carry parts for older stuff, it will hurt them more than they think.  I can't even get parts for current production items!  My wife got me the vision line 3 pack of PRR sound cars last Christmas.  She bought them over the summer and held it for Christmas.  When I opened it over the holidays, I found the volume control was broken.  Called Lionel and they had no parts to send me.  It was less than a year old.  I had to hand make a solution to fix the car.   I even emailed Ryan at Lionel about the parts and he assured me Lionel was stocking parts and that they would be available.  He said the parts department was still behind from the pandemic.   I don't see it getting better.  This will make me think twice about buying older tmcc/legacy locomotives as well as new stuff.  If something dies, its a shelf queen.  How many threads have we seen where engines were not assembled correctly at the factory?  Pinched wires, frayed cables, loose screws under the hood are ticking time bombs.  One false move and a dead short will blow a board you can't replace.  I really enjoy all the new products but if Lionel is not going to support them, whats the point?

GRJ and others.....You have to use the items name not the actual part number. I hope trainz address that.

Richard

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The first DCDS sounds like a FET has shorted, that would be the first thing I checked.  I'd be looking at the FET drivers on the second one as well.

John,
Is there a way to test these while they are in place on the boards?  I went on line to see how to test FETs, but all examples I see are with the FETs removed.

When I test in place, I get .515 volts across D-S on the P series and 2.06 volts across D-S on the N series.

I get no dead short from pin to pin.  I do get continuity from center pin to metal heat sink plate.

I'm not sure I'm doing this right.

The reason why they want you to test out of the circuit is the fact that #1 many FETs have a built in snubber diode to protect the FET junction. Hence "When I test in place, I get .515 volts across D-S on the P series and 2.06 volts across D-S on the N series." exactly- you are potentially measuring that diode and yes, that diode is reverse polarity from N channel VS P channel. To be effective- you have to test BOTH polarities with the meter on a given FET to ensure the diode and the junction are intact.

Gate should and hopefully would be open circuit to anything and the tab is also known to be common with the center pin.

Point being, just from where I stand, your test data points that the FETs might be OK, and the problem is elsewhere. You didn't see a dead short, they weren't obviously cooked, and the board did not short the power supply coming in. That then lands the fault potentially in the logic area- where it is much harder to repair or fix- let alone troubleshoot and may not be possible using simple techniques.

But that's just my $2 (hey inflation).

Testing for a sorted FET in circuit is no problem, it's just looking for an open that's an issue.

For an operational test, you can also monitor the gate voltage and see if they're getting activated and not working.

In any case, if in total doubt, I replace the $2 parts and see if that fixes it.

Looks like HO is looking better & better to me. Getting parts from Trainz, get ready to pull your hair out.

@Rppoind posted:

GRJ and others.....You have to use the items name not the actual part number. I hope trainz address that.

Richard

In that case, they don't have any of the early Legacy parts, and no R2LC or R4LC either.  Motherboards?  I have a lot more TMCC/Legacy motherboards than they do!  AAMOF, I have more of all those parts I looked for than they do!

@irish rifle posted:

…Maybe Lionel believes that if you can't repair one of their engines, you will be forced to buy a new one to replace it…

Ding, ding, ding…we have a winner! It seems planned/forced obsolescence is a recurring and dominant theme for the electronic/digital world in which we live. 🤬

Bill

I noticed that a lot of my favorite parts were out of stock/unavailable too. I mostly buy RS4 boards and related and always thought that someday Lionel could just stop selling them for whatever reason. I was even pleasantly surprised the past couple years when they were willing to burn some of may favorite RS4 soundsets after they showed non-availability. If this is truly the end of Lionel being a source of TMCC parts and spares, it was a good run! Glad I was able to get some of those parts for my projects.

I did some quick searches and it looks to me all TMCC and early Legacy electronics are gone. That includes everything to do with Railsounds 5.5 and earlier. Oddly they still seem to have parts relating to the Odyssey 1 magnetic tach system. There is no way Lionel could have sold out of all these parts in such a short time without something being left. That leads to two possible conclusions: Lionel doesn't want these parts included in the 50% off parts sale and they will be back after the sale or more likely they have sold it all to someone just like they sold their old parts to North Lima Trainworks years ago. Wouldn't it be great if Mike Regan bought them to add to his MTH parts business? I can hope anyhow.

Ken

@kanawha posted:

Wouldn't it be great if Mike Regan bought them to add to his MTH parts business? I can hope anyhow.

I'm not seeing the MTH parts site offering Lionel parts, but maybe I'm just short-sighted!

I smell a rat and it’s orange and blue (L).   I’ve been waiting months to purchase a discounted board for a loco and now this.   They just keep finding new ways to drive me out of this hobby.  

@Steims posted:

I smell a rat and it’s orange and blue (L).   I’ve been waiting months to purchase a discounted board for a loco and now this.   They just keep finding new ways to drive me out of this hobby.  

@Steims,

Then why are you still here?

The component shortage has highlighted a big problem with older electronics.  The fact is that they have a gold mine in hand and may not be able to get replacements inexpensively going forward.

Now, sneaky is a good term.  A professional public service announcement would go a long way toward helping us understand what's happening, but so far we hear nothing but crickets -- and they're not digitized electronic ones emanating from a speaker.

Mike

I had parts in my cart yesterday that were available but not today.  Wow someone bought a ship load o parts.  I was awaiting the Sept 25th half off sale.  Wonder if that is the reason they took down certain parts?

@laz1957 posted:

I had parts in my cart yesterday that were available but not today.

I just got a shipping notice for my most recent order, it's the last electronic parts.  I just ordered everything, sorry folks.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I just got a shipping notice for my most recent order, it's the last electronic parts.  I just ordered everything, sorry folks.

We know that is a bunch of BS.  Why would you ever buy all the boards when we know darn well you can fix boards for nickels on the dollars.    Nice try GRJ. 

I remember when Lionel stated no train left behind. Apparently that's out the window now.

@feet posted:

I remember when Lionel stated no train left behind.

I don't.  When was this statement made, and by whom?

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

I don't.  When was this statement made, and by whom?

Mike

Lionel made that statement years ago when they switched from TMCC to Legacy.  Who actually made that statement I don't remember.

They didn't leave them behind, they dropped them in a bucket.

In reading through this thread, it looks like getting essential early Legacy and TMCC parts is not looking good. Even though I operate only 7 engines, they are all Lionel TMCC/Legacy, pre-2012.

If things get any worse with Lionel, I would have no hesitation leaving O scale for HO DCC. With my relatively small layout, it would entail just taking up the Fastrack and replacing it with HO track. Then selling off the O scale engines, rolling stock, and power, then replacing them with all HO.

I don’t necessarily want to do that. But Lionel may leave me with no choice.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

In reading through this thread, it looks like getting essential early Legacy and TMCC parts is not looking good. Even though I operate only 7 engines, they are all Lionel TMCC/Legacy, pre-2012.

If things get any worse with Lionel, I would have no hesitation leaving O scale for HO DCC. With my relatively small layout, it would entail just taking up the Fastrack and replacing it with HO track. Then selling off the O scale engines, rolling stock, and power, then replacing them with all HO.

I don’t necessarily want to do that. But Lionel may leave me with no choice.

And that's what I intend to do, HO. I have several thousand dollars worth of Lionel trains.

I'll probably lose my shirt but won't have to worry about lack of parts.

Am I missing something, or is there a law that states you can’t put DCC in a Lionel, or other 3 rail engine??…why do you have to drop down to H.O.?…

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Am I missing something, or is there a law that states you can’t put DCC in a Lionel, or other 3 rail engine??…why do you have to drop down to H.O.?…

Pat

Pat:  “ . . . drop down to H.O.?”, or climb up to HO?

I thing one thing everyone is missing is that, Lionel has never had replacement parts manufactured separately.

Parts come from extra whole locomotives that Lionel orders from the original production run. Then they disassemble these locomotives to fill the parts bins.

It's not surprising they are running out of parts for 10+ year old locomotives. Especially with the "parts sale" giving  folks more reason to "stock up" on parts they don't need, just in case.

Meanwhile someone has a drawer full of stuff" just in case" and the guy with the dead locomotive is s.o.l.

On a side note. This is also a good reason to relegate the postwar power for accessories and get a modern transformer with a fast acting breaker to protect those obsolete electronics.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

Pat:  “ . . . drop down to H.O.?”, or climb up to HO?

For most people HO (1:87) trains are smaller than O (1:48).  Maybe yours aren't?

Mike

@Yellowstone Special posted:

Pat:  “ . . . drop down to H.O.?”, or climb up to HO?

🤣🤣🤣🤣…..definitely drop down,…it’s getting harder to see O stuff,….I doubt HO is an improvement……

Pat

If it gets too bad, then either make my own electronics, adapt other brands, or worst case, just go live steam, or the cheater way- compressed air.

Hoping it doesn't get that bad.

@RickO posted:

I thing one thing everyone is missing is that, Lionel has never had replacement parts manufactured separately.

Parts come from extra whole locomotives that Lionel orders from the original production run. Then they disassemble these locomotives to fill the parts bins.

It's not surprising they are running out of parts for 10+ year old locomotives. Especially with the "parts sale" giving  folks more reason to "stock up" on parts they don't need, just in case.

Meanwhile someone has a drawer full of stuff" just in case" and the guy with the dead locomotive is s.o.l.

On a side note. This is also a good reason to relegate the postwar power for accessories and get a modern transformer with a fast acting breaker to protect those obsolete electronics.

Pretty sure that didn’t apply to electronics Rick. I doubt train manufactures are making the boards or motors for that matter and while it may be less expensive to have boards made in Asia, they can be made in the US or many other places on the planet. Wasn’t that long ago I was making my own circuitry.

Lionel didn’t run out of all these parts, they simply decided to clear their shelves. Where they went is open to speculation.

Pete

Worse case scenario, if it’s got a DC can motor of some type, a 59 cent bridge rectifier, and it WILL go again,……when I build an engine, I’ll run it on a rectifier for a shake down anyways, ….and I’ll leave it in there until I’m ready to proceed with electronics …..

Pat

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

For most people HO (1:87) trains are smaller than O (1:48).  Maybe yours aren't?

Mike

Geez. I was merely hinting to the concept that since more model railroaders are HO than any other scale, many of them would view moving from O scale to HO, a step up.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

Geez. I was merely hinting to the concept that since more model railroaders are HO than any other scale, many of them would view moving from O scale to HO, a step up.

You're probably right.  We're doomed.

Would the last one leaving 'O' please make sure to turn out the lights on the way out?  And, make sure that  this Forum is shut off as well while you're at it.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

You're probably right.  We're doomed.

Would the last one leaving 'O' please make sure to turn out the lights on the way out?  And, make sure that  this Forum is shut off as well while you're at it.

Mike

Seems like you have an antagonistic pattern to you Mike.  Maybe you should go play with your trains. 

@Norton posted:

Pretty sure that didn’t apply to electronics Rick. I doubt train manufactures are making the boards or motors for that matter and while it may be less expensive to have boards made in Asia, they can be made in the US or many other places on the planet. Wasn’t that long ago I was making my own circuitry.

Pete

Pete,

Have you tried buying components lately to stuff into the boards?   The present widespread shortage is not helping this situation.

It might be that Lionel doesn't want to let go of everything just in case they can't get any more.

Mike

@Steims posted:

Seems like you have an antagonistic pattern to you Mike.  Maybe you should go play with your trains.

No antagonism here.  Just stating the facts as others before me in the thread have presented them -- in order to make sure that we have them clear.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Pete,

Have you tried buying components lately to stuff into the boards?   The present widespread shortage is not helping this situation.

It might be that Lionel doesn't want to let go of everything just in case they can't get any more.

Mike

Well, I'm not Pete, but AAMOF, I've been buying components throughout the pandemic and parts shortages.  However, I don't think that has anything to do with what Lionel is doing.  The boards that were pulled were not ever going to be produced again, they're at least ten years old.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, I'm not Pete, but AAMOF, I've been buying components throughout the pandemic and parts shortages.  However, I don't think that has anything to do with what Lionel is doing.  The boards that were pulled were not ever going to be produced again, they're at least ten years old.

John,

I'm glad you've been able to get your parts.  We have 35,000 F-150's sitting in parking lots here in Detroit waiting for parts that aren't being made fast enough.  And it's not just Ford and not just Detroit and not just cars.  Many industries are having this kind of big trouble.

If the boards that Lionel has pulled from sale are never going to be made again why is there a problem?  That inventory wouldn't last long anyway if this were the case.  Wouldn't it be better to cut your losses right now and start installing DCC if that's the hand you're being dealt, by Lionel or otherwise?

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

No antagonism here.  Just stating the facts as others before me in the thread have presented them -- in order to make sure that we have them clear.

Mike

Well, we don't have all the "facts" as of now.  Nobody here knows exactly why Lionel pulled all those parts.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, we don't have all the "facts" as of now.  Nobody here knows exactly why Lionel pulled all those parts.

My point precisely.

Let's not get carried away until we know what's really happening.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

My point precisely.

Let's not get carried away until we know what's really happening.

Mike

Mike, ….go have a Coke and a smile, …..it’ll be alright buddy!….the trains will go around, and the F150’s will get built…..😉

Pat

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Wouldn't it be better to cut your losses right now and start installing DCC if that's the hand you're being dealt, by Lionel or otherwise?

Don't you guys ever get tired of beating the DCC drum?   You'd think it came down from a mountain on stone tablets!

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

John,

I'm glad you've been able to get your parts.  We have 35,000 F-150's sitting in parking lots here in Detroit waiting for parts that aren't being made fast enough.  And it's not just Ford and not just Detroit and not just cars.  Many industries are having this kind of big trouble.

My understanding of the problems in the auto industry is that many of the safety system and emissions controls are based on circuitry that they have long been warned by component manufacturers would soon be obsolete.

Rather that redesign those with more modern processors, system-on-a-chip, and component packages, and have them undergo recertification, they chose to roll the dice.

If the boards that Lionel has pulled from sale are never going to be made again why is there a problem?  That inventory wouldn't last long anyway if this were the case.  Wouldn't it be better to cut your losses right now and start installing DCC if that's the hand you're being dealt, by Lionel or otherwise?

I think part of the problem is that there just isn’t much on the market that can supply the amount of current that the 3-rail O-scale motors and drive trains demand. This is largely because the two biggest players couldn’t play nice in the same sandbox.

Seems that we were all speculating on what is going on with the Lionel replacement boards.  Was this just a cost savings move for the upcoming 50% Part Sale or something else.  So, I called Lionel directly and spoke with Kristen who was in the know.  Here is what I took away from our conversation:

Boards were pulled deliberately/intentionally.  Why?  Age, make room for new parts coming in, etc.

Will they be back available after sale?  No

Are they going to a third party like North Lima?  No because North Lima is closed.

She said there will be an upcoming announcement regarding the boards. 

Ugggghhh!!!!     Please don't shoot the messenger.

Thank you Steims, for doing that. Looks like those of us who run TMCC and early Legacy locos are screwed, if they peter out and require new boards. 😳

@Steims posted:

Boards were pulled deliberately/intentionally.  Why?  Age, make room for new parts coming in, etc.

Will they be back available after sale?  No

Somebody better keep an eye on the dumpster behind the NC headquarters.😉

@Steims posted:

Seems that we were all speculating on what is going on with the Lionel replacement boards.  Was this just a cost savings move for the upcoming 50% Part Sale or something else.  So, I called Lionel directly and spoke with Kristen who was in the know.  Here is what I took away from our conversation:

Boards were pulled deliberately/intentionally.  Why?  Age, make room for new parts coming in, etc.

Will they be back available after sale?  No

Are they going to a third party like North Lima?  No because North Lima is closed.

She said there will be an upcoming announcement regarding the boards.

Ugggghhh!!!!     Please don't shoot the messenger.

Why not try to reduce inventory via selling them during the sale, and then purge the stock.  Lots here doesn't make sense.

@superwarp1 posted:

Why not try to reduce inventory via selling them during the sale, and then purge the stock.  Lots here doesn't make sense.

I agree.  Let's hope somebody like Scott Mann made a deal with Lionel to bring those boards under the ERR umbrella.  A company with a focus on Lionel locomotive electronics upgrades.  Seems like a fit. 

@Steims posted:

I agree.  Let's hope somebody like Scott Mann made a deal with Lionel to bring those boards under the ERR umbrella.  A company with a focus on Lionel locomotive electronics upgrades.  Seems like a fit.

The real silver lining would be if Lionel allows whoever is taking over full right to make their own replacements as the parts do indeed become obsolete without a need for a license from Lionel. Much like vendors of Post War parts can make reproductions.

If Lionel is simply transferring the parts for resale and doesn’t allow this change then they will eventually disappear and those four figure Vision engines will be relegated to running around silently with full wave bridges.

Example now is you can no longer get any parts for your JLC Big Boy.

Pete

@Steims posted:

So, I called Lionel directly and spoke with Kristen who was in the know.  Here is what I took away from our conversation:

...

She said there will be an upcoming announcement regarding the boards.

I also spoke with her earlier about this.  Did she say how this communication announcement will happen?

I have a lot of TMCC engines.  I'm not worried about those as I have options with ERR.  What I want is a path forward for keeping my early Legacy engines ( i.e. JLC, early Vision-Line, etc. ) fully operational.  This would include the sounds and light functions that came with the engines. And as a bonus, maybe there might be some additional capabilities. But again, these improvements are low on my priority list.

I am not interested in getting rid of my current trains so I can purchase new ones of the same engine, even with additional choice of road names, better sounds, more smoke options, etc..  I know I could do a full Legacy upgrade, that's not what I am after either.  I'm happy with what I have.  Otherwise I would not have purchased those items.

Further more - I am disappointed that Lionel did not have the foresight to see the pain this would cause to their customers.  Lionel should have had the communications ready at a more appropriate time, rather than the user community contacting Lionel asking questions, posting concerns on this forum and elsewhere, asking why was this done this way, etc. going on a rant and then addressing this.

Right now, all I want is to get a DCDS-J S19 code motor driver for my Vision Line 6-11155 so I can once again enjoy this engine with all of its original options.

If someone does take over the inventory, I hope they are provided a way to program the DCDS-J boards with the right code.  You can't just get one and have everything work correctly - lighting, and speed of the engine come to mind.

As a service center a courtesy notification would have been nice!

Jim

Since they are not attending York the “announcement” certainly won’t be there.   They probably factored in it’s late in the gardening season and there are way too many rotten tomatoes laying around.  

I agree with Dave G. Although I would say that the user community is stating justified and legitimate complaints rather than “going on a rant” and this was still no way for Lionel to handle it.

I’m just a small user with only a few of the affected locomotives, but am still hoping for a viable solution, even though the possibilities are speculative at this point. But I’m not holding my breath and am only glad I don’t have dozens of these engines like some collector/operators have.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

I agree with Dave G. Although I would say that the user community is stating justified and legitimate complaints rather than “going on a rant” and this was still no way for Lionel to handle it.

You are correct Vern.  Rant was not the correct word to use.

At this point pretty much any TMCC engine with DC motors can be kept operable with ERR boards. Nowhere near as economically and without road and cab number talk but running. If your audio or audio power board fails you have to get a ERR Railsounds board. 125 bucks vs 20 bucks sale price.

Right now there is no simple inexpensive option for early Legacy. Those products and their owners have been left out to dry.

Pete

This happens a lot more than you would think, and the problem is there comes a point where keeping stock of parts is more expensive than it is worth (and I am not defending Lionel or condemning them). The problem is when you are talking engines 10 years or older (which ironically are obviously more likely to fail) , they have to keep boards around and if they run out, may not even be able to get them made again in any kind of a cost basis. The boards have some standard components I would assume, but there are also custom chips on there, ASICS and the like (not an engineer, and GRJ is likely gritting his teeth; that's okay, my dad wherever he is will be as well. I do know that even if the same company that made the boards in the first place could make more, they would charge an arm and a leg (and a new company that might have to re-engineer the board to replace standard components that no longer exist, would be really expensive).

What we have here is what you see with appliances and the like, manufacturers assume that when the units fail, that people will buy a new one (and here I am talking things like the control boards they use in washers and everything else). They do something similar to Lionel, in that when they produce new models the boards are not the same as the older versions. So they keep boards for a particular model x years past the new model introduction, to fulfill warranty claims, then don't have them any more. Lionel prob figures that an engine that is 10 years old (or older), that if the person can't get new boards, they will buy a newer version of a similar prototype. Like the appliance companies, they don't think "Gee, these are expensive units, and maybe they should last a lifetime", they think "Okay, I made my money on the model, I kept the parts around for X years, my job is done".

BTW it isn't just electronics, I have a whirlpool tub that the faucet base may be shot. I talked to the company that made it, and they were like "Oh we stopped having parts for that 15 years ago".  They assumed you will just go out and replace the whole tub (not even talking electronics, talking basic plumbing). Tubs like this are a big item, and people keep them a long while..and they don't make replacing that base easy, either.

The reason people mention DCC is easy, because it is a standard you have multiple vendors out there and because it is a standard you can likely get replacement/upgrade boards (I also understand that standardization comes with a *, because there are extensions in some brands that other brands won't support, like wrinkles on sound and so forth). In terms of power, there are DCC units that handle 2 rail O, with modern can engines the power consumption shouldn't be a problem (I doubt anyone makes a DCC board than can handle a pullmore motor). Most engines made in the last 20 years will likely be can motors though. Even if you lose some features, you can still have things like speed control and sound with DCC if you have to switch to another vendor's decoder/boards.

You make some good points, bigkid. In the case of Lionel O scale, it’s too bad it’s gone from lifetime conventional locomotives back in the day, to planned obsolescence after command control was introduced. Or, is it unplanned obsolescence? 🤔

Maybe I should have stuck with my conventional Pullmor locomotives and stayed satisfied with those. But darn it, I like the modern features! 😉

@superwarp1 posted:

Why not try to reduce inventory via selling them during the sale, and then purge the stock.  Lots here doesn't make sense.

I am thinking they do not want us to fix up old engines and instead buy the new bluetooth ones. If selling those old parts means losing new sales they do not want to sell them. I can't think of any other reason for pulling them days before the sale. It was a business decision no matter what other excuse they may make IMO.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

You make some good points, bigkid. In the case of Lionel O scale, it’s too bad it’s gone from lifetime conventional locomotives back in the day, to planned obsolescence after command control was introduced. Or, is it unplanned obsolescence? 🤔

Maybe I should have stuck with my conventional Pullmor locomotives and stayed satisfied with those. But darn it, I like the modern features! 😉

Vern,

I hear ya but it's more like unplanned.

"Planned Obsolescence" was not introduced with command control.  If it was how do you explain so many command control equipped units surviving and operating 25 years after their introduction without needing repair?

You've apparently determined that most of them have failed during that time when the opposite is more like the truth - ask the techs here on the forum that fix these things.

If it was planned it would have been 5 max -- and if they intended it to be 5 max then they've clearly failed at it.

As far as your theories about Lionel back in the day, if their products were perfect back then why did Lionel create such a large service network, and have it in place from very early on?

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Vern,

I hear ya but it's more like unplanned.

"Planned Obsolescence" was not introduced with command control.  If it was how do you explain so many command control equipped units surviving and operating 25 years after their introduction without needing repair?

You've apparently determined that most of them have failed during that time when the opposite is more like the truth - ask the techs here on the forum that fix these things.

If it was planned it would have been 5 max -- and if they intended it to be 5 max then they've clearly failed at it.

As far as your theories about Lionel back in the day, if their products were perfect back then why did Lionel create such a large service network, and have it in place from very early on?

Mike

Must you again, Mike? I was merely alluding to the fact that back in the middle of the last century, Lionel trains would last and last. I still have mine from 1955 and it works today as well as it did back then, with a little maintenance and some tender loving care, of course. Lionel's service network existed to make repairs on those simple Pullmor motors and other simple components, convenient for its customers. No electronics and "boards" back then. There are fewer trains out there in the population today than there were back in Lionel's heyday. More households had them, they were easier to fix, and were not made overseas.

Today, no. When I acquired my first TMCC engines after the turn of this century, I was hoping they would last and last. But if no electronic parts will be available for them, then nada. The only thing I've determined is that my engines will become shelf queens, if they break down and parts are no long available to fix them.

Really getting tired of your over-thinking and over-analyzing everything that is peculiar to your mindset. So again, please live up to your handle and mellow out.

I think it's official now.  This email showed up yesterday.

This is the attached note.

Note-Old parts out of stock.pdf

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think it's official now.  This email showed up yesterday.

This is the attached note.

Note-Old parts out of stock.pdf

Well now, I guess it's official. Isn't that just great!?!

Thanks for the info, John. I think. 🤔

It has been posted at least once in this thread that there is nothing out there that will handle O scale locos other than the Lionel or MTH stuff.

That is not correct.    If  you go to DCC, NCE makes a decoder that will handle 4 amps continuouos and 10 stall.   They also make a larger one that will handle 8 Amps for G scale.     Soundtraxx makes some with sound that will handle 3-4 amps.     Lok-sound makes them which is what Sunset is putting in their diesels now.    Digitrax has  a 5 amp decoder, I think and possible also a 3 amp one.    QSI makes the ones that Sunset used until the last few runs.     TCS makes a 4 amp decoder.    Some of these do not make sound decoders, but  you can always add a tiny HO size second one for sound only.   You just put a 100 ohm resister across the motor outputs just to allow programming.    All the DCC decoders work with any DCC control system.    So changing the boards in the loco does not affect the control system.

I have used mostly NCE decoders in many brass locos built in the 60s, 70s and 80s that have open frame motors, and have had no failures that I did not cause myself by bad installation.   Remember the electronics in most cases are worth a lot less than the loco itself.

So there are options out there.    I have always been very leery of single source systems  where on mfg/vendor is the sole supplier.

@prrjim posted:

It has been posted at least once in this thread that there is nothing out there that will handle O scale locos other than the Lionel or MTH stuff.

That is not correct.    If  you go to DCC, NCE makes a decoder that will handle 4 amps continuouos and 10 stall.   They also make a larger one that will handle 8 Amps for G scale.     Soundtraxx makes some with sound that will handle 3-4 amps.     Lok-sound makes them which is what Sunset is putting in their diesels now.    Digitrax has  a 5 amp decoder, I think and possible also a 3 amp one.    QSI makes the ones that Sunset used until the last few runs.     TCS makes a 4 amp decoder.    Some of these do not make sound decoders, but  you can always add a tiny HO size second one for sound only.   You just put a 100 ohm resister across the motor outputs just to allow programming.    All the DCC decoders work with any DCC control system.    So changing the boards in the loco does not affect the control system.

GOOD GRIEF!  Can we cease and desist with the DCC stuff?   If you have one or two engines that need boards, your idea is to convert your whole layout to DCC and cease running your TMCC/Legacy locomotives!  You guys really need to give the DCC drumbeat a rest or keep in a thread where it's on-topic!

the topic was that you can't get parts for these single source systems.    I merely offered a suggested alternative - with lots of parts sources.  

@prrjim posted:

the topic was that you can't get parts for these single source systems.    I merely offered a suggested alternative - with lots of parts sources.  

So, which DCC stuff replaced the DCDS for early Legacy?

The topic is posted in Lionel Service Questions for a good reason, it's about Lionel service parts, not about rebuilding our whole layout and engine fleet!

I guess your idea is we can forget about all those TMCC command switches, the LCS, the Legacy command system, etc.  In other words, we build a new layout and operating environment around DCC.  You'll pardon me if I don't think your idea has all that much allure for most folks that are running Lionel 3-rail layouts!

Jim, I don’t think conventional DCC is solution for most here. It won’t work concurrently with TMCC or DCS over the rails. What should work is the new Blunami which only relies on track power and signals are passed over the air.

Still waiting for the announcement from Lionel and/or its new partner what to expect for support for older engines. This could be a big win for its customers if they finally agree to allow others to build solutions for equipment they themselves no longer want to support.

Follow the model of the auto industry where at one one time and maybe still applies that they only have to support a product for seven years after first release. Others are allowed to make parts to continue that support without need for a license. End users can select between factory parts or third party parts.

Boards that function like the originals can be made forever. When a part becomes obsolete there are others that can take its place.

Pete

Just to throw this in, and this is not smart a** stuff. Everybody on this part of the Forum already knows the things below. I'm just sayin'.

DCC - if you gotta have a lot of "features" (they'll kill the hobby yet). It works. Don't use it; don't want to. (TMCC was just right.) But it works and a lot of guys know the stuff. # of rails does not matter. Pullmor power not invited.

Straight DC power - as the "features" mean less to me than to most, this really appeals to me. If it comes to desperation and you just want to enjoy your trains, a DC power source and a rheostat, used on electronically stripped-down DC-motored (most of them are DC now) locos will get you power, lights, direction, maybe smoke. DC can run Pullmor motors, too. # of rails does not matter here, either. Center rail Hot, running rails Cold, or vice-versa, or whatever terminology you like.

Straight DC makes you almost immune to electronics supply issues. DC Power source. Rheostat. Polarity switch for direction. Done. Really. Live "transformer control" beats dead Command Control, I'd say.

Most of our higher-end locos are geared OK to well, so they should run steadily - not cruise-steady, but real trains slow down and speed up too (though not as often....). Big Pittman motors in a lot of units - and Pittman is found in all sorts of early-ish O scale equipment.

It will probably never come to DC - partly due to my age - but I could dig it.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

GOOD GRIEF!  Can we cease and desist with the DCC stuff?   If you have one or two engines that need boards, your idea is to convert your whole layout to DCC and cease running your TMCC/Legacy locomotives!  You guys really need to give the DCC drumbeat a rest or keep in a thread where it's on-topic!

At least in my case, I wasn't beating the drum for DCC. Interesting question, I thought DCC had trouble with DCS because they both go through the rails, that TMCC/Legacy because it is single way and transmits over house wiring ground it wouldn't have the compatibility problem w dcc (and it is just a question).  I was merely pointing out that DCC could be applied to O gauge engines, that's all. DCC would be an option if both legacy and DCS went away, though if that happens it is likely the whole industry would be in trouble.

Aw man, glad I got a couple spares of my favorite RS4 sets. Figured this day would come sooner than later!

The auto industry isn't a particularly good comparison (though I get the reason for the comparison), they tend to produce cars over a long period of time produce a lot of cars. Too, as others pointed out, because of the size of the car market third party people can make money on supplying components for years.

One interesting comparison, we worry about toy trains and the boards that run command control failing. Cars use of technology is a lot more sophisticated, and based on what I know of the industry and personal experience, the electronics don't routinely fail (when they do usually it is things like the car got flooded or shorted, or someone tried jump starting a car and didn't do it right (or as in my case, some nasty rodents got under the hood when a car was in storage, and caused a lot of damage...). It shows that sophisticated electronics aren't necessarily short lived in our train, but the perception is there (and without real information, something Lionel or MTH aren't going to put out there, we don't know).

I don't think this is planned obsolescence as much as the nature of the business. I don't think Lionel or MTH or whatever builds them to fail, I think they build them to fit the business model they have. They likely don't build resiliency into them, would be too expensive. And given the size of the market, keeping boards for older engines and the like just becomes economically a non starter. One of the problem is that the control boards are pretty much custom for each engine (talking legacy here), bc of specific features on an engine. It means if a legacy board fails on an old big boy let's say, you can't swap in a more modern board they have, and likely can't swap a board from another legacy engine even of the same vintage but not the same model (and this is just my impressions, folks, not claiming to be an expert). GRJ and the other engineers will probably grit their teeth at me, but in theory you could have a universal board of sorts that differentiates based on software loaded (for example) that controls the specific features (like DCC extensions), but we don't.

I wonder if there will ever be a legacy version of ERR. They might be able to do a basic Legacy board, but I doubt they would make boards that match the original with all the features, just wouldn't be enough volume I think to have all those board types like having a board for a 12 year old legacy Hudson or whatever. A lot of that depends on how much is common with legacy as well, again I could see a basic legacy board being doable for those unable to get the specific ones. The market IMO is too small to allow customized boards that mimic entirely the original.  On the other hand maybe if a third party is really good at this kind of thing, like Milo Minderbinder, they figure out how to make what should be a losing proposition work

You know on my screen, a big panel with posts shows up on the right.    There is no listing on each one saying saying  only guys with this, or only guys with that are allowed to look at the posts.    I assumed that big panel was for all uses to look at and comment on.   I don't dig down into specific lionel or other screens.    So why not just keep your secret stuff there and let the rest of us read the topics open to all model railroaders.

@bigkid posted:

I don't think this is planned obsolescence as much as the nature of the business. I don't think Lionel or MTH or whatever builds them to fail, I think they build them to fit the business model they have. They likely don't build resiliency into them, would be too expensive. And given the size of the market, keeping boards for older engines and the like just becomes economically a non starter. One of the problem is that the control boards are pretty much custom for each engine (talking legacy here), bc of specific features on an engine. It means if a legacy board fails on an old big boy let's say, you can't swap in a more modern board they have, and likely can't swap a board from another legacy engine even of the same vintage but not the same model (and this is just my impressions, folks, not claiming to be an expert). GRJ and the other engineers will probably grit their teeth at me, but in theory you could have a universal board of sorts that differentiates based on software loaded (for example) that controls the specific features (like DCC extensions), but we don't.

I don't think it's planned obsolescence, but it's not nearly as cut-n-dried that you can't use boards from one engine in another engine.  Let's take the boards that specifically disappeared from stock, specifically early Legacy modular boards.  I pick these as there aren't any good substitutes like there are for TMCC.

You are correct in that you can't freely swap boards between locomotives freely, however there are many common boards.  The R4LC boards only have a handful of versions, and the -S03 version works in a vast majority of modular Legacy locomotives.  By the same token, a DCDS for one modular Legacy will likely work in many of them.  Yes, you may have to give up some lighting features, or add them back with external components, but the basic function of motor drive will work just fine.  However, if you have no source of ANY Legacy R4LC version or any Legacy DCDS modules, clearly that avenue is closed.

The argument that inventorying all those older parts doesn't ring true, at least to me.  There are FAR more mechanical and cosmetic parts available for the same vintage models, why did only electronic parts suddenly go "obsolete"?

@prrjim posted:

You know on my screen, a big panel with posts shows up on the right.    There is no listing on each one saying saying  only guys with this, or only guys with that are allowed to look at the posts.    I assumed that big panel was for all uses to look at and comment on.   I don't dig down into specific lionel or other screens.    So why not just keep your secret stuff there and let the rest of us read the topics open to all model railroaders.

You really want to go there?

I guess you haven't been paying attention to all the management posts about off-topic threads and posts.   Just because you can post in a thread doesn't mean you should, or that your pronouncements are on-topic or germane to the topic.  Looking should have illustrated that DCC really doesn't fit into this conversation, but I suspect you already know that.

If you don't dig down into specific Lionel posts, why come to this thread and push DCC.  It clearly isn't the answer to the problem, in spite of your claims to the contrary.  When I'm repairing Lionel control systems, DCC really doesn't enter into the picture, and I seriously doubt it does for a vast majority of Lionel operators!

In my eyes, the bigger loss are the RailSounds 6.0 boards.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

Well now, I guess it's official. Isn't that just great!?!

Thanks for the info, John. I think. 🤔

Ever since the old CTO. CSM. and audio engineer departed. Lionel has felt more like a "toy making company" than a model train manufacturer.

This is why I have no interest in Lionchief 2, 3, 4.7.... or whatever and certainly not that base 3.

There seems constant reinvention of things, either because of lack consideration of the past , or not enough anticipation of the future.

Meanwhile, the things that always worked, paint, audio boards, gearboxes ...., have hiccups along the way.

@rplst8 posted:

In my eyes, the bigger loss are the RailSounds 6.0 boards.

Well, the other shoe dropped.  I just got a Legacy SD70ACE that cooked it's DCDS.  No repairing this one, it had a little fire on one end of the PCB, total destruction.  With no parts, it'll have to be downgraded to TMCC to get back on the rails.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think it's official now.  This email showed up yesterday.

This is the attached note.

Note-Old parts out of stock.pdf

What is official? That letter did not address the fact that every Railsound board went out of stock in a day. Where did they go? Into the trash?

The one reason the last two years…I was busy collecting parts and not new engine. Frankly, My train buying days are over - why bother if I can’t get parts …..