Plain and simple. All the boards are not being sold by Lionel any longer. What they did with them is still a mystery.
Bottom line, Lionel wants you to buy engines from their new catalogs. Not happening here.
@Landsteiner posted:I predict that either Lionel/ERR will make available parts that at least keep these locos functioning and sounding like something similar, or will permit third parties to make such parts. Probably won't please everyone, definitely won't be cheap
but will meet many people's needs. Makes no sense not to do these things, given the long standing loyalty of the Lionel hobbyists.
That's a good thought and it would nice for us if that happens. But even if it does, how long would we have to wait for those parts to be made available? What about those of us who have TMCC locomotives that need repairs/parts replacement now? It's still speculative what the outcome will be.
@Landsteiner posted:I predict that either Lionel/ERR will make available parts that at least keep these locos functioning and sounding like something similar, or will permit third parties to make such parts. Makes no sense not to do these things, given the long standing loyalty of the Lionel hobbyists.
It would have made sense to at least give a slight indication that would be happening in John's email above. There was none.
@RickO posted:It would have made sense to at least give a slight indication that would be happening in John's email above. There was none.
Maybe a deal is still being wrangled by the attorneys for both sides but it was contingent on parts transfer. That would stop the parts from being sold right now until the deal and announcement can be made.
I’m just hoping that somebody picks up this product like ERR.
@shawn posted:Ted,
I certainly second your thoughts. I’m done….enough engines. I’m going to downsize soon. Selling off a vast collection. I will keep a few engines…..Goodbye lionel….it’s been a long run…..imho - A new leader is in order….
And who would that leader be? It sounds like wishful thinking to me.
None of them are doing well; they're all just getting by.
Mike
@rplst8 posted:From my understanding, the RS6 boards are programmable. I think that's the purpose of the little 6 pin pico-blade connector. Up until a few days ago (a week?) RS6 boards were still be sold. I received one in July, which is currently on its second visit back to Lionel for the correct programming.
The RS6 boards are programmable. If the software and sound sets were available, I have to tool to program them.
Well, I send an email to Lionel on the 15th when this was coming to light, I got a reply today.
Lionel Parts Query Reply.pdf
The parts had to go somewhere, why are they being so coy about what they did with them?
Attachments
Just read the reply. Looks like we're screwed.
First they dump the Legacy 990 control system now this parts nightmare.
Lionel pulled the rug out from under us again. Give me one good reason why I should not switch to HO.
Well at least they didn't discontinue the black writable modu....... never mind.
@MartyE posted:Well at least they didn't discontinue the black writable modu....... never mind.
Don't give' m any ideas as that may be next along with service on the #990 system.
@feet posted:Don't give' m any ideas as that may be next along with service on the #990 system.
Pssstt. The Black Module is discontinued.
Lionel’s reply to GunrunnerJohn gave me a thought. I’m not starting a rumor but what if Mr. Mike Reagen saw this coming and took the initiative to snatch up all the boards. Then Trainworx could be the “go to” locomotive repair facility. They would have the knowledge and they would have all the parts by cornering the market.
Previously I supposed ERR and now I’m namedropping Trainworx. Who else could there be? We know Lionel didn’t dump/destroy these boards.
@Steims posted:Lionel’s reply to GunrunnerJohn gave me a thought. I’m not starting a rumor but what if Mr. Mike Reagen saw this coming and took the initiative to snatch up all the boards. Then Trainworx could be the “go to” locomotive repair facility. They would have the knowledge and they would have all the parts by cornering the market.
Previously I supposed ERR and now I’m namedropping Trainworx. Who else could there be? We know Lionel didn’t dump/destroy these boards.
I can tell you from first hand knowledge, this is not the case……
Pat
@MartyE posted:Pssstt. The Black Module is discontinued.
Free Black Modules for Legacy
@gunrunnerjohn posted:
I set the table just for you John...
@harmonyards posted:I can tell you from first hand knowledge, this is not the case……
Pat
And you know this how?
@PRRMP54 posted:And you know this how?
A little birdy landed on my shoulder,……..how in the world do you think I know this??……I talk to the man on a regular basis ……Mike knows as much as we do,….very little ….
Pat
I would have been shocked if Mike was involved, his dance card is pretty full right now I suspect. 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I would have been shocked if Mike was involved, his dance card is pretty full right now I suspect.
That’s an understatement,….😁
Pat
Seeing Trainz has bought N. Lima Trainworks, maybe they purchased all these parts also?
They could use them for repair and offer them for sale.
Doug
This nonsense was predictable when MTH pulled the rug out from under loyal customers and LHS's. Lots of moaning and groaning but what's left is more profitable (for the "new" MTH) ... at our expense ... but many still buy their stuff. Now its Lionel's turn ... Once again, Lots of moaning and groaning but what's left is more profitable (for Lionel) ... at our expense ... but many will still buy their super expensive stuff only to get shafted when the "non- american made," no longer available components inevitably take a dump. We don't need fortune cookies or tea leaves to figure out this one!
@john in western pa posted:This nonsense was predictable when MTH pulled the rug out from under loyal customers and LHS's. Lots of moaning and groaning but what's left is more profitable (for the "new" MTH) ... at our expense ... but many still buy their stuff. Now its Lionel's turn ... Once again, Lots of moaning and groaning but what's left is more profitable (for Lionel) ... at our expense ... but many will still buy their super expensive stuff only to get shafted when the "non- american made," no longer available components inevitably take a dump. We don't need fortune cookies or tea leaves to figure out this one!
Not me John. I'm done.
Well John in western pa, yes there has been a lot of warranted "moaning and groaning," because Lionel could have handled this one a lot better. With MTH's recent fragmentation issue and now Lionel's older parts issue, it leads one to question the future of O scale altogether and for good reasons.
vern in northern ut
@trnluvr posted:Seeing Trainz has bought N. Lima Trainworks, maybe they purchased all these parts also?
They could use them for repair and offer them for sale.
Doug
Wasn’t Trainz either……it’s literally a mystery ……
Pat
So we can scratch Trainworx and Trainz then. Who has an inside connection with Scott Mann at 3rd Rail?
@Steims posted:Lionel’s reply to GunrunnerJohn gave me a thought. I’m not starting a rumor but what if Mr. Mike Reagen saw this coming and took the initiative to snatch up all the boards.
I'm thinkin' Mike Reagan is done with Lionel. Otherwise he'd still be there.
@RickO posted:I'm thinkin' Mike Reagan is done with Lionel. Otherwise he'd still be there.
I think he’s done with the people at Lionel but he always had a passion for the product.
This is absolutely crazy, had these gone out of stock one by one I doubt many of us would bat an eye I mean some of this stuff was always bound to go out of stock and components on a board reach EOL. But everything all at once is just a huge sucker punch. This is a huge reason why they need to make the new boards programable, they have already standardized the board to work for both Legacy and LC+ 2.0 if you had to go through the work and rewire something to ERR why not buy a current production PCB. And I'll make the shot across the bow before any one can pull out the BS statement that the reason why they won't license legacy is that then the speed steps won't match, I'm sorry by I have Legacy locomotives with quite literally every iteration of motor driver or receiver board; every different model has it's own speed curve, even from the RCMC to the new LCP3(4) boards I can still have locomotive fight in a MU. In my opinion MTH did a much better job at keeping different locomotives going the same speed at a given speed step and I don't even own a PS2 or 3 locomotive. I could understand if they didn't want to take LCP3(4) boards away from current production items I mean how long have we been waiting for PS2-3 boards as new locomotives roll out? At this point though I doubt they ever plan to do this, frankly as far as I can tell they just don't want our money
Folks mention ERR but Scott in a recent Zoom Meeting where he was the speaker pointed out that he has a 10 year licensing agreement with Lionel for TMCC and ERR which I will say is on the backside of the agreement so the question remains at that point do they kill the TMCC supply chain which supplies manufacturers and the hobbyist or...
@dk122trains posted:Folks mention ERR but Scott in a recent Zoom Meeting where he was the speaker pointed out that he has a 10 year licensing agreement with Lionel for TMCC and ERR which I will say is on the backside of the agreement so the question remains at that point do they kill the TMCC supply chain which supplies manufacturers and the hobbyist or...
Do you know how many more years remain on this agreement?
Well, after listening to all the discussion so far, I've decided two courses of action:
1. Immediately protect all my installed LCRU and RS boards with TVS diodes. Most have them already, and I make a point of installing them where I think they do the most good - at the power leads soldered to the board.
2. Buy up all the e-units I can find, and get them ready for the rush!!!
George
Yup here we are again. Someone at a company made a business decision that someone(s) didn't like. There was the same kind of outcry when ERR died the first time, and when MTH decided to develop DCS instead of adopting TMCC, etc. The list goes all the way back to 1994 when Lionel decided to develop a proprietary control system which they hoped everyone would adopt as the standard.
As the decades have passed, TMCC has become more and more of a closed system. It's Lionel's operating system and they can continue to close up the ranks as they see fit. The same can be said of MTH.
What's interesting is this is primarily a group that demands backwards compatibility and also expects its two main manufactures to offer parts from models manufactured nearly twenty years ago. What everyone forgets is that at some point going back over 70 years the after market has had to step in and offer parts and support after the manufacture has exhausted its' supply or made a business decision to drive product sales.
The O gauge industry also has a habit of taking incredibly talented young individuals away from their respective entrepreneurial developments and putting them into company ranks until an inevitable parting of ways. Frank Pettit, Lou Kovach, Jon Z. (Not even going to try and spell it tonight), John Ricks, the list goes on and on.
What the O gauge hobby has failed to do again and again is to pool its' resources and develop a technology that either supplements or replaces these failed proprietary systems. There is a risk of patent infringement, lawyers, and a steep learning curve involved. We have always counted on the manufactures to "Do the right thing" even if the right thing hurt their business.
In my opinion, the only way this ever gets solved is that we continue to support the factory authorized upgrades such as ERR or Proto 3 upgrade kits, or we finally decided to adapt and find a way to make our trains retrofittable with a more widely available technology or control system.
I love TMCC. I love the way it revolutionized the hobby, I love its' history, and I love the development of the technology. However, I think Lionel might be right in pulling the plug on being the aftermarket source for boards. I personally think its' time for the hobby to band together a figure out what the next step is as opposed to having the decision made for them. That would require people to step up and figure out what's possible and at what cost. I've looked at some of the options and it's not feasible for one individual to undertake any more, but maybe this segment of the hobby can pool its' resources and see what it can come up with.
Sorry for the ramble, but the writing is on the wall. Whether or not we choose to do something about it is up to the members of the hobby.
@Notch 6 posted:Yup here we are again. Someone at a company made a business decision that someone(s) didn't like. There was the same kind of outcry when ERR died the first time, and when MTH decided to develop DCS instead of adopting TMCC, etc. The list goes all the way back to 1994 when Lionel decided to develop a proprietary control system which they hoped everyone would adopt as the standard.
As the decades have passed, TMCC has become more and more of a closed system. It's Lionel's operating system and they can continue to close up the ranks as they see fit. The same can be said of MTH.
What's interesting is this is primarily a group that demands backwards compatibility and also expects its two main manufactures to offer parts from models manufactured nearly twenty years ago. What everyone forgets is that at some point going back over 70 years the after market has had to step in and offer parts and support after the manufacture has exhausted its' supply or made a business decision to drive product sales.
The O gauge industry also has a habit of taking incredibly talented young individuals away from their respective entrepreneurial developments and putting them into company ranks until an inevitable parting of ways. Frank Pettit, Lou Kovach, Jon Z. (Not even going to try and spell it tonight), John Ricks, the list goes on and on.
What the O gauge hobby has failed to do again and again is to pool its' resources and develop a technology that either supplements or replaces these failed proprietary systems. There is a risk of patent infringement, lawyers, and a steep learning curve involved. We have always counted on the manufactures to "Do the right thing" even if the right thing hurt their business.
In my opinion, the only way this ever gets solved is that we continue to support the factory authorized upgrades such as ERR or Proto 3 upgrade kits, or we finally decided to adapt and find a way to make our trains retrofittable with a more widely available technology or control system.
I love TMCC. I love the way it revolutionized the hobby, I love its' history, and I love the development of the technology. However, I think Lionel might be right in pulling the plug on being the aftermarket source for boards. I personally think its' time for the hobby to band together a figure out what the next step is as opposed to having the decision made for them. That would require people to step up and figure out what's possible and at what cost. I've looked at some of the options and it's not feasible for one individual to undertake any more, but maybe this segment of the hobby can pool its' resources and see what it can come up with.
Sorry for the ramble, but the writing is on the wall. Whether or not we choose to do something about it is up to the members of the hobby.
We need a standardized control system like HO has. Should have been like that to start with which would have prevented this disaster.
When all my engines die, I will convert them to DCC, it works for the 2-rail crowd.
Notch 6 historically described what has been a major flaw with O gauge trains, the manufacturers’ inability to come up with a standardized control system, or even compatible control systems that would last.
Feet has stated the solution with HO. A standardized NMRA approved control system (DC/DCC) that’s remained constant and has worked for years, regardless of the manufacturer.
And as feet stated, it’s too bad the O community didn’t take a page out of the HO community’s book. If it had, this O gauge mess wouldn’t be happening.
It's a lot easier to replace a mechanical part. A good machinist can make bushings, axles, etc. We can't make new boards. Lionel has never released the code for any board. The radio boards can be loaded with the correct code as needed. Same goes for the motor driver boards. When I needed a new c13 r2lc, Lionel programed a board and sent it to me. Dumping their remaining stock doesn't help us without the code for the boards. Lionel in one decision has made self queens of all tmcc and early legacy equipment. If it breaks, you are out of luck. And this decision is suppose to encourage us to buy new stuff? Just so Lionel can do it again with current products? No thank you.
Folks like gunrunner John and ERR, can only provide some limited replacement parts. They can't provide aftermarket parts for everything. Their efforts are much appreciated. Lionel should step up and release the code for the boards so new parts could be made.
I don't like it, but I understand why Lionel no longer wants to stock parts for 20 year old engines (#1 being their business model that requires continued sales of new engines). The stated excuse was needing shelf space. Really? RS and DCDS modules are pretty small. You can fit a lot of them on a shelf.
More disturbing is the question as to why did they not simply let supplies sell out over time? In that scenario, we would all order boards as we need them or keep a small supply of commonly used boards on hand. Needed parts would ordered, and hoarding would be unlikely. Now we have 2 other scenarios:
1. They trashed them to "force" us to start buying new engines. Not likely, but it would be a really bad PR move.
2. They are selling remaining stock to a 3rd party. This will be somewhat analogous to announcing that there won't be any gasoline available after this week. As soon as the 3rd party offers them up for sale, the supply will be wiped out by big orders to stock up on "just in case" boards. These will sit unused, and the guy who needs that one board will be out of luck.
Well, at least we have ERR . . . for now.
Bob
@RRDOC posted:More disturbing is the question as to why did they not simply let supplies sell out over time? In that scenario, we would all order boards as we need them or keep a small supply of commonly used boards on hand. Needed parts would ordered, and hoarding would be unlikely. Now we have 2 other scenarios:
Exactly! This seems to be a calculated move to force obsolescence onto the older products. Since all the mechanical parts are still available, the space savings for removing maybe 10% of the inventory doesn't really ring true.
How can they be short of space? Their warehouse looks like the last scene from Raiders of the Lost Arc. They stock almost nothing for new production. Look up the parts for items made in the last five years and only a couple of boards are listed if anything. Zero mechanical parts.
Pete
