MPC Era Lionel Trains?

I re-motored my postwar F3s with some NOS MPC era motor/power truck assemblies back in the mid 1990s, and the locos have been running superbly ever since. Much smoother than the old postwar "growlers" they replaced....  Lionel made some good stuff during the MPC era (along with some cheezy like the Kickapoo locomotive). They also made some decent Hudsons, Berks, and other steam locos back then.

Addict..Don't stress if you buy the wrong thing. I did it when I didn't know what I was doing. OGR has a great For sale feature. You can always re sell.Guys on here are into all kinds of trains. At the right price your trains will sell. You will get to know what you want. Just takes time. Nick

As said but worded differently MPC is a good product for the most part. Now General Mills did try to come out with some super cheap sets, Mainly 0-4-0 steam engine and small diesel switchers in the shape of NW2 but smaller. They also ( most of them anyway ) where DC power engines and could only run on DC, They did make some that ran on either AC or DC 

Here's my opion on trains, if you like them run them. I have from prewar - postwar and then again engines and cars from about 1995 to about 2010. I'm really getting into my prewar Tinplate right now. But like all I have. I've thought about selling some of my trains but when it gets down to it, just can't on about 99% of them. 

I don't have a layout at present, so if you do your ahead of me, I need to have some structural things done to this house first. 

Just Keep on Training 

over time some of the real railroads removed detail from cab units, like portholes.......

I do have an ABA set of F3's for Amtrak  and run them with various PW ATSF and MPC Amtrak O27 cars.  Makes for a nice early Amtrak train on the O27 curves I onece had.

Now, I also have an AA 2353 ATSF PW F3 set which I could use with the Amtrak cars for an early 1970's train.

If you're going for a hyper-realistic O scale layout, your MPC engines will stand out like a sore thumb.  If you're building a layout that you can enjoy with reliable, smooth-running engines and equipment that pleases your eye (and your wallet), you couldn't have made a better choice.

I love all the MPC equipment I own.  I've never purchased any of the notorious clunkers -- i.e., I don't have the Kickapoo switcher and I don't own a Mini-max "boxcar" and I don't own any of the lower-end freight cars with plastic wheels -- but I do own a ton of 9200, 9400, and 9700 box cars and quad hoppers, and tank cars, and, and, and...

...and I'm a happy guy.  You should be too.

Steven J. Serenska

General Mills/Fundimensions/MPC trains were made in an era when the O gauge model train hobby was just beginning its resurgence around 1970. It is safe to say that the new company wasn't quite sure what would sell or what the market was, so they manufactured similar P/W stuff. There were few innovations but the fast angle wheel trucks that enabled pulling long consists was a good one that remains to this day.   MPC engines used universal AC motors and electo-mechanical e units. The horns were gone and AFAIK didn't return until the later Kuhn era. Some items were cheapened, but the MPC products sold at low prices and are affordable to this day. If you are looking to just turn the trains on, let them run on the layout and not spend a fortune, they are ideal.

There is a segment of the market that still runs conventional and there are the folks that want the latest technology in remote operation and detail. In my case my layout is like my large canvas of artwork that recreates railroading in small towns during the 1950's. My objective is the overall presentation not the complexity of operation. I still run conventional but with electronic e-units, and horns/whistles/sound boards as upgrades. Your view of the hobby and what you expect from it will determine which way to go.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

The horns were gone and AFAIK didn't return until the later Kuhn era...

Fundimensions era, actually, 1973.

We grew up on Postwar and MPC trains. Since getting back into trains and deciding to model O scale, most of what I've purchased is MPC era stuff, and I like it. I run conventional, I don't plan on running long trains either. I like the stuff I've bought and plan on just enjoying running trains, and playing with the few Lionel power accessories I've bought recently. I plan on starting bench work soon, but, only after completing some necessary work on the train room.

Rusty

I think you had to live through the era. Before MPC we had a couple of pages for a Lionel catalog and that was a smaller reprint of the year before. My friends who were into Lionel where sure Lionel would be out of business soon. Prices were really starting to go up for used stuff and that was all we could get. Suddenly there were cheap F-3s, 6464 sized box cars for around $5 bucks and new stuff coming out fast. Yes, it was not as detailed and all diesels were single motored, but it was cheap and a lot was available. There were a few real advances. Fast angle wheels for one. You could pull a ton of cars with a single motor F unit. It's easy to look back from todays eyes and say MPC was junk. It saved Lionel and kept a lot of us in the hobby. 

Don

Serenska posted:

I've never purchased any of the notorious clunkers -- i.e., I don't have the Kickapoo switcher and I don't own a Mini-max "boxcar" and I don't own any of the lower-end freight cars with plastic wheels -- but I do own a ton of 9200, 9400, and 9700 box cars and quad hoppers, and tank cars, and, and, and...

...and I'm a happy guy.  You should be too.

Steve, I HAVE purchased those things and I'm still a happy guy!

Truthfully, I think the Kickapoo has received an unjustified bad rap over the years. Under the hood, it's the same mechanism from the MPC 2-4-2's and 4-4-2's, minus the lead and trailing trucks. The entire KV&N set was modern Lionel's first big move in doing something different, but the general consensus is that it missed the mark. No doubt it was engineered to a price point, and the fact that it only lasted one year (along with the accompanying upscale Pioneer Docksider set) says the market wasn't ready for such a foreign concept. I've tried to track down the "product champion" of the Kickapoo from the early MPC guys that are still with us, but haven't had any luck getting further with the story.

I've attached a photo of the scratch-built, prototype Kickapoo locomotive that I acquired over twenty years ago. It's one of my favorites.

And as for the 9090 Mini-Max boxcar, I have no idea what they were thinking!

TRW

Do you guys realize the OP was from about 4 years ago! 

Allot of the cars are well worth having, the engines, not so much if you want something that looks scale but with a little work they will keep running for years.

Dave

Another plus for MPC was colorful freight cars and steam engines with railroad names. Their early years were restricted by how much they had to spend but as sales improved so did the products. I don't know why they sold the junk sets but so did the Lionel corporation.

I've never heard of the Mini-Max boxcar.  Anyone have more info on it ?

Dan Padova posted:

I've never heard of the Mini-Max boxcar.  Anyone have more info on it ?

I had one and it was very small car with two trucks that only two wheels. It was blue and white.

I had my MPC Pennsy F3s since new in 1982 without any problems. I also have several Geeps.

I actually enjoyed my brief foray (early 1970's) into the MPC/Fundamensions Era, and mixed their production with my mostly restored postwar engines. 

I have several 9090 Mini-max boxcars. It was a brand new car, created by the folks at MPC. It had a prototype.
There are variations in the lettering.
It came with a load of three "pallets" of merchandise. There are variations in the load too.
At least some of the cars came with sprues in the door opening between the roof and floor. A little slip of paper was packed with the car that had instructions to remove the sprues.

Say what you want about MPC.
Had they not purchased and continued making Lionel trains, Lionel probably would not be around today.

MPC tended to get a bad reputation after running them at too high a voltage, a post-war ZW at max will cook an MPC engines guts. Running way to many cars also was part of it since many were only intended to pull about 14 cars. There was also a time of some faulty gears that ended. They were known for working on quality, to the point they canceled a Christmas season from having a huge batch of faulty transformers. They guarded their reputation rather well and upheld it.

They guarded their reputation rather well and upheld it.

Something few companies seem to do these days. They all seem to be plastering their names (and reputations) on cheap junk in the quest for a quick buck, ruining their hard won reputations. This goes well beyond toy/model trains.

I run a bunch of MPC stuff. Simple, reliable engines and nice looking cars. Perfect for my 027 layout.

Bob

david1 posted:

Dan Padova posted:

I've never heard of the Mini-Max boxcar.  Anyone have more info on it ?

I had one and it was very small car with two trucks that only two wheels. It was blue and white.

In Europe, four wheeled freight cars are common.  There must have been some sort of prototype for Lionel to have made the Mini-Max.  I suspect they were in the lower price range.  

I got back into the hobby in the later '70s.  My first purchase was the G M & O Heartland Express.  From there I purchased more MPC and post-war at train meets.  While the post-war was certainly built to last, the MPC held it's own nicely.  

Bottom line - if you like em, buy em - they can be found cheap and I think they will stay cheap, so buy to enjoy. Pretty much reliable (get some traction tires for the powered engines!). A little lube, good to go.  If you are starting and don't have any dough, you can have a whole empire for a couple of hundred bucks.  I was growing up during the MPC era, and it was thrilling to get new product after a bunch of very dry years at the end of the Lionel postwar era (basically just boxing up what was left over, and a rerun of some 6464's). I had a ton of that stuff, and started to offload as it was obvious that guys were dumping it for the heavier, better, more expensive stuff coming out later by Lionel LLC and MTH. I still have a few of the diesels, some 'Service Station' F3 sets, and a couple of electrics (EP5 and Rectifier). And a bunch of freight cars! I have converted some of them to postwar metal trucks, which you can find a meets for about $5 a pair. Nice companions to the postwar stuff. 

Jim

Lets not forget that the MPC trains allowed many of us to join in on the resurgence of the "Lionel" hobby back then.  We didn't have the big bucks to buy the post war trains that were in high demand at the time.  We started going to train shows in search of hard-to-find 072 track and good deals on 022 switches or maybe a box full of hopper cars for $15 each.   My sons and I ran our MPC for hundreds of hours with just a little maintenance once in a while.  These trains led to a lifetime of enjoying O guage trains. I enjoy the scale trains and electronics we have today, but it all started with MPC trains.  I am most grateful to General Mills for keeping the wheels rolling and reigniting the hobby.   

Everything I have is (for the most part) MPC era. My first set was a NPK 8617 steam freight set, my dad added added to that set a bunch; an 8801 U36b and an Amtrak 8912 yard switcher and a bunch more rolling stock. Now that my son is getting old enough to be into trains sticking with MPC era stuff has allowed us to add to the set very economically as well as maintain the same appearance through out the set. 

C W Burfle posted:

I have several 9090 Mini-max boxcars. It was a brand new car, created by the folks at MPC. It had a prototype.
There are variations in the lettering.
It came with a load of three "pallets" of merchandise. There are variations in the load too.
At least some of the cars came with sprues in the door opening between the roof and floor. A little slip of paper was packed with the car that had instructions to remove the sprues.

Say what you want about MPC.
Had they not purchased and continued making Lionel trains, Lionel probably would not be around today.

You said it as it needed to be said - IF it were not for MPC - BET there would be no Lionel today!

I had a bunch of MPC And it was great, lots of engines with colorful paint schemes. Freight cars in the 9200, 9700 series were low priced and looked and ran very well. 

I can't remember a MPC engine that ever failed in the time I owned them. 

It was a great time, 

Dave

Dan Padova posted:

david1 posted:

Dan Padova posted:

I've never heard of the Mini-Max boxcar.  Anyone have more info on it ?

I had one and it was very small car with two trucks that only two wheels. It was blue and white.

In Europe, four wheeled freight cars are common.  There must have been some sort of prototype for Lionel to have made the Mini-Max.  I suspect they were in the lower price range.  

CW mentions there was a prototype.

Modern Railroads October 1969

    Pick up a C8 post war, imagine you grew to expect that quality and ruggedness.

Pick up a similar C8 MPC. Note the weight, detail difference, metal content and overall feel of ruggedness. Note the change in sheen because in the 70s you are suspect of the high sheen; previously that was a dead giveaway for cheap, brittle, plastic, even on name brand items.( Time answered the question on the plastic's quality )

  Can motors were considered cheap and unreliable. They were only seen in toys.  Lionels were not "just toys" they were Lionels. The open frame could be rebuilt like a quality power tool; the can motor was perceved as a throwaway toy.

  Add to that the fiasco that occurred as thousands of kids planted that new Lionel starter set loco on the old family Christmas loop and had them quickly toast.... DC trains did little to continue the confidence Lionel had earned with the Christmas crowd. I recall stacks of returns 4' high at Kmart. These starter set's likely ended a few hobbyists future fun permanently and ended some family traditions.

  Gramps ordered sight unseen from Lionel from the mid 30s till the mid 70s. Finally, the overall quality made him send an engine back. He cried because "his Lionel" was dead. He continued to buy, but never ordered another thing.

  Gramps was an operator, but also a serious collector. The kind with "white glove cabinets". I feel guilt cutting into anything pre70 not already broke.  I see MPC as something cheap and acceptible that I can enjoy; or hate... bashing on it till I do enjoy it, without " guilt".

Adriatic posted:

    Pick up a C8 post war, imagine you grew to expect that quality and ruggedness.

Pick up a similar C8 MPC. Note the weight, detail difference, metal content and overall feel of ruggedness. Note the change in sheen because in the 70s you are suspect of the high sheen; previously that was a dead giveaway for cheap, brittle, plastic, even on name brand items.( Time answered the question on the plastic's quality )

  Can motors were considered cheap and unreliable. They were only seen in toys.  Lionels were not "just toys" they were Lionels. The open frame could be rebuilt like a quality power tool; the can motor was perceved as a throwaway toy.

  Add to that the fiasco that occurred as thousands of kids planted that new Lionel starter set loco on the old family Christmas loop and had them quickly toast.... DC trains did little to continue the confidence Lionel had earned with the Christmas crowd. I recall stacks of returns 4' high at Kmart. These starter set's likely ended a few hobbyists future fun permanently and ended some family traditions.

  Gramps ordered sight unseen from Lionel from the mid 30s till the mid 70s. Finally, the overall quality made him send an engine back. He cried because "his Lionel" was dead. He continued to buy, but never ordered another thing.

  Gramps was an operator, but also a serious collector. The kind with "white glove cabinets". I feel guilt cutting into anything pre70 not already broke.  I see MPC as something cheap and acceptible that I can enjoy; or hate... bashing on it till I do enjoy it, without " guilt".

Posts like the one above make me cringe a bit, because they're long on emotion and short on facts. Let me start with two questions:

1) What was the set name and approximate year that you saw 4' high stacks of returns at K-Mart? How do you know the reason why they were returned?

2) What was the locomotive that your grandfather returned because it didn't have the overall quality he was looking for?

TRW

Adriatic posted:

...Gramps ordered sight unseen from Lionel from the mid 30s till the mid 70s. Finally, the overall quality made him send an engine back. He cried because "his Lionel" was dead...

Too bad. 1976 was the year things started getting really good again.

I grew up on running PW Lionel with my father until I graduated from HS in 1970.  With getting a career and married a short time later, we did not run trains much until getting back into it in 1976.  We did buy some MPC, but dad always preferred the PW Lionel and engines with magnetraction.  We did have some steamers with the tires, but dad sold/traded them for PW engines.  One he sold was a scale sized Hudson, but we/I still have the NYC tender that came with.  As with many, we/he liked the rolling stock more than the engines.  I had a lot of MPC I picked up myself, as I inherited our collection when he passed in 1978, at a way too young an age of 53.  I still retain all we acquired together, plus everything added since 99%.  I agree, if it had not been for MPC and other changes/innovations, we would not have the fine Lionel, and other makes, around to enjoy today.

Jesse   TCA

As I remember at the time the Kickapoo was designed by a old Lionel designer. He also designed the small Milwaukee Madison cars. No operating couplers and very simple cars as was the steam engine. I bought all those MPC things early on. I repainted the steamer and detailed it but had no problem running it. I can look up more detail on the steam engine if anyone would like. Don

If we are discussing P/W to MPC era, I will agree somewhat that the line was cheapened but the universal motors were retained. Yes magnetraction was gone, boxcars and engines were stripped of details but in the 1960s old Lionel was doing that too. The biggest difference was that many 9700 series boxcars were no longer painted but got their color from the plastic that they were molded from.  Markings were heat stamped. Engines were single motor and traction tires were added. The product was basic, reliable and with the fast angle trucks ran better than their P/W counterparts. Fundimentions was a TOY company not one catering to hobbyists, so this perhaps explains the thinking in their marketing department. When they discovered that guys in their 20's and 30's was their market we saw steady improvements in the line . This was driven by an old Lionel employee Lenny Dean (R.I.P.)

 He also designed the small Milwaukee Madison cars.

Whatever model railroading magazine I was getting at time (MR or RMC) ran a feature article about those "baby Madison" cars when they were being designed.  If I recall correctly, One of the points the article featured was the changeable end to make a Pullman or an observation.

ADCX Rob posted:

Adriatic posted:

...Gramps ordered sight unseen from Lionel from the mid 30s till the mid 70s. Finally, the overall quality made him send an engine back. He cried because "his Lionel" was dead...

Too bad. 1976 was the year things started getting really good again.

That's right. Starting with the 8600 steam loco and the return of Magne-Traction. But the real eye-opener was the 8753 GG-1 from 1977 -- it proved to the Fundimensions guys that they didn't need to re-engineer anything to reduce costs on high-end product, and that there were people out there willing to pay the price to get the items with the features that they wanted. I'm really curious to know which locomotive was delivered that missed expectations so badly -- nothing obvious comes to mind.

scale rail posted:

As I remember at the time the Kickapoo was designed by a old Lionel designer. He also designed the small Milwaukee Madison cars. No operating couplers and very simple cars as was the steam engine. I bought all those MPC things early on. I repainted the steamer and detailed it but had no problem running it. I can look up more detail on the steam engine if anyone would like. Don

Bruno Branstner is credited with the Kickapoo, but I believe Gordon Hathaway did the "Milwaukee" cars. (They originally planned on doing the Pennsylvania cars first.)

C W Burfle posted:

 He also designed the small Milwaukee Madison cars.

Whatever model railroading magazine I was getting at time (MR or RMC) ran a feature article about those "baby Madison" cars when they were being designed.  If I recall correctly, One of the points the article featured was the changeable end to make a Pullman or an observation.

I only have a vague recollection of that article. I think it was in Railroad Model Craftsman, circa 1973. Anyone know which issue?

TRW

Dan Padova posted:

david1 posted:

Dan Padova posted:

I've never heard of the Mini-Max boxcar.  Anyone have more info on it ?

I had one and it was very small car with two trucks that only two wheels. It was blue and white.

In Europe, four wheeled freight cars are common.  There must have been some sort of prototype for Lionel to have made the Mini-Max.  I suspect they were in the lower price range.  

Dan is correct.  The only time I saw a photo of the Mini-Max prototype, was in the early Seventies, in one of the railroad hobby magazines.  That was why I was motivated to buy the Lionel version when it came out.  I might add that although I bought mine brand-new in the box, it never contained any plastic crates.

If I recall correctly, the idea behind the Mini-Max was that it would be used to haul lightweight, high-volume cargo.  Since I never saw one lettered for anything but General Mills, I presume what they had in mind was cereal, but I don't know for certain.

I can't remember any more which magazine ran the photo -- either RMC or MR.  Many's the time I've searched online for that picture ever since, with no luck.

Incidentally, it seems the Lionel Mini-Max may be on its way to becoming a collector's item.  I've seen them selling for $10 up to $30, both online and at train shows.

I loved MPC and still run it. Every couple of months the scale Pennsy comes off and the MPC goes on, its fun and relaxing and that what the hobby is about. I was born in 1970 and MPC was everywhere in NY. I got my Tuscan PRR F-3's from Train World on Ave. M. My MoPac GP-20's and my Budd Car SSS from Madison Hardware. The B. Altman in White Plains always had a layout at Christmas along with the A & S in Paramus, all MPC trains. When the Blue Comet came out I begged my father for it and I still have it to this day. Even got the diner from Madison Hardware when they were hard to find..It's nice to take out 2 screws pop the shell and a little oil and lube, off you go. My favorite MPC set, the orange Lionel Lines set, all from Trainland or Train World, thanks Mr. Bianco!!!!

PaperTRW posted:

Adriatic posted:

    Pick up a C8 post war, imagine you grew to expect that quality and ruggedness.

Pick up a similar C8 MPC. Note the weight, detail difference, metal content and overall feel of ruggedness. Note the change in sheen because in the 70s you are suspect of the high sheen; previously that was a dead giveaway for cheap, brittle, plastic, even on name brand items.( Time answered the question on the plastic's quality )

  Can motors were considered cheap and unreliable. They were only seen in toys.  Lionels were not "just toys" they were Lionels. The open frame could be rebuilt like a quality power tool; the can motor was perceved as a throwaway toy.

  Add to that the fiasco that occurred as thousands of kids planted that new Lionel starter set loco on the old family Christmas loop and had them quickly toast.... DC trains did little to continue the confidence Lionel had earned with the Christmas crowd. I recall stacks of returns 4' high at Kmart. These starter set's likely ended a few hobbyists future fun permanently and ended some family traditions.

  Gramps ordered sight unseen from Lionel from the mid 30s till the mid 70s. Finally, the overall quality made him send an engine back. He cried because "his Lionel" was dead. He continued to buy, but never ordered another thing.

  Gramps was an operator, but also a serious collector. The kind with "white glove cabinets". I feel guilt cutting into anything pre70 not already broke.  I see MPC as something cheap and acceptible that I can enjoy; or hate... bashing on it till I do enjoy it, without " guilt".

Posts like the one above make me cringe a bit, because they're long on emotion and short on facts. Let me start with two questions:

1) What was the set name and approximate year that you saw 4' high stacks of returns at K-Mart? How do you know the reason why they were returned?

Because I grew up in a Lionel environment, I listened and asked.  Many were returned for "cheapness", but the majority because the DC motors were not compatible with Lionel's previous ac power, though it was expected.  This was poor marketing on Lionels part imo, they didn't make it clear enough the two types were not compatible.

2) What was the locomotive that your grandfather returned because it didn't have the overall quality he was looking for?

I'm having trouble on that at the moment, I'll have to think a while. It was white and there were quite a few white loco's about that period.... Alco, GP or U-boat ?Disney, one of the State sets or other patriotics?

TRW

ADCX Rob posted:

Adriatic posted:

...Gramps ordered sight unseen from Lionel from the mid 30s till the mid 70s. Finally, the overall quality made him send an engine back. He cried because "his Lionel" was dead...

Too bad. 1976 was the year things started getting really good again.

   He didn't "give up", he just never bought a loco without inspecting it first, no more orders after near 50 years of ordering direct, sight unseen.

U36 #8773?

I still have and run the MPC New Haven F3 AA set that I bought from Charles Siegal's web site when he was still in Pennsylvania in the late 90's. Super inexpensive.I was also able to aquire the matching MPC B unit shell from Trainworld for a giveaway price shortly thereafter. 

Never had any trouble with the set, it remains to this day one of my favorite trains. I have never looked down upon MPC offerings. They're fun to run.

John

Love my MPC.....after we are gone they will still be running.....nuf said.....

philo426 posted:

U36 #8773?

I have to chuckle when I see the Disney series.  In the late '70s, I was browsing in Two Guys Department store.  In the toy department of course.  They had quite a bit of MPC Lionel on the shelves, including all of the Disney cars out up to that time.  A woman was a few feet away admiring the Disney box cars.  She remarked, "Aren't these cute".  Then I noticed her look at the price and she promptly put it back on the shelf.  I suspected that she had thoughts of buying some cars and a loco for her child that was with her.  I don't recall what the prices were but I wasn't ready to spend money on Disney cars at that point.  In those days work was scarce for a carpenter in Philly.  I was on unemployment and looking for a job, so any train purchases were an extreme luxury.

PaperTRW - looks like March 1973 is the RMC issue in question, article titled "In the tradition of the (Lionel) Madison cars".  Wish I had a copy of it.

ed h posted:

PaperTRW - looks like March 1973 is the RMC issue in question, article titled "In the tradition of the (Lionel) Madison cars".  Wish I had a copy of it.

 

Thanks for the research, Mr. H. I'll have to dig that one up.

TRW

I remember that article and it got me motivated to anticipate and later purchase the Milwaukee Special Set. I also remember the exclusive extra coach offer through the mail. A few years ago, I purchased a mint MR set and most of the add-on coaches and the combine. Engine and SOS with whistle runs fine! I should mention a forum member sent me the mail order car gratis, for which I was very grateful! Engine is also a good smoker, BETTER than both my black and gray JLC Challengers!

philo426 posted:

U36 #8773?

This is the first set I bought in 1977 or 78, when I got back into trains.  I think I paid $180 for the engine and the first 6(?) cars. I bought the additional cars for $12 each and refused to pay $50 for the Mickey birthday car when it came out.  ($50 for a plastic car, no way.)  I wound up buying it a year or so later for $350  

Do you still have them?Can you post pics?

philo426 posted:

Do you still have them?Can you post pics?

here are a few, I tried panorama but kept doing something wrong :-) just before Christmas my wife had me move a hutch (temporarily) in front of some train shelves.  Guess what it’s still there.  I added a picture showing some of my 9800 series billboard reefers.

Nice display for sure!

Lionel from that era was no different than other major product lines. It had its its and its misses. Now fast forward four decades to today. Most of the junky, overly plastic pieces are in landfills and what is left is generally good quality, reasonably prices (check Ebay) fun, fun, fun.

I run and collect mostly post war but most of the F3's and EP5's that I want are out of my price range.  Recently I picked up a real nice B&O F3 and a PA EP5 for a VERY reasonable price.  I'm looking for more now and can't wait for an upcoming show in March. 

671/681 posted:

I run and collect mostly post war but most of the F3's and EP5's that I want are out of my price range.  Recently I picked up a real nice B&O F3 and a PA EP5 for a VERY reasonable price.  I'm looking for more now and can't wait for an upcoming show in March. 

I found great buys on a couple of MPC era Pennsey EP-5 units, and run them together in a pair. They look great and run really sweet !

Oh boy.  I'm beginning to have a bit of buyer's remorse.  I just purchased, from a forum member, An MPC F3, Pensy ABA in Tuscon Red for what I though was little money, I guess, $125.  I should have researches first.

I now understand what I bought.  I don't want to look like a fool and renege on the deal.  I just hope it will pull several heavy cars and not sound like a coffee grinder or hair clipper.

Someone please put my mind at ease.

Ponz

That powered A unit has 2 motors and traction tires.  I used to run mine with the dummy A and 5 aluminum cars.

Bill

WftTrains posted:

That powered A unit has 2 motors and traction tires.  I used to run mine with the dummy A and 5 aluminum cars.

Bill

 

Thanks bill...

Nothing wrong with Lionel MPC.........Good simple fun. Can't say that about the trains of today with all the electronics that don't work half the time.........Just like the new automobiles of today way way over done with electronic China garbage.

david1 posted:

Dan Padova posted:

I've never heard of the Mini-Max boxcar.  Anyone have more info on it ?

I had one and it was very small car with two trucks that only two wheels. It was blue and white.

I think the chassis was revived for the first Thomas and friends goods vans and passenger cars.

Ponz posted:

... I just purchased, from a forum member, An MPC F3, Pensy ABA in Tuscon Red for what I though was little money, I guess, $125...

One of the most powerful F3 diesels ever made by Lionel... and really nice looking too.

Ponz posted:

Oh boy.  I'm beginning to have a bit of buyer's remorse.  I just purchased, from a forum member, An MPC F3, Pensy ABA in Tuscon Red for what I though was little money, I guess, $125.  I should have researches first.

I now understand what I bought.  I don't want to look like a fool and renege on the deal.  I just hope it will pull several heavy cars and not sound like a coffee grinder or hair clipper.

Someone please put my mind at ease.

Ponz

Ponz.

i ran into a young guy who was selling trains that his dad who passed away had. I bought  a Mpc Chicago & Alton 4-6-4 steamer, an mpc great northern steamer 4-8-4 steamer and pw crane car, coal dump car and 3662 milk car for 300.00

i have 99% postwar and the mpc steamers were the first I purchased, actually second, I purchased the mpc 783 Hudson from him previously and put in a ERR railsound board, excellent whistle and bell upgrade. A keeper.

i love them as the run and smoke like brand new engines, they have sound of steam which is very primitive but goes with the history of the era. I put new foam on the boards in the tenders as it deteriorated over time, and to prevent them from shorting out, pullmore motors which I can service. They add color to the layout and I can’t find anything wrong with them. Everyone has their opinions but I think I did well purchasing them and have no regrets. I may upgrade the boards with the ERR rail sounds,which I can still run conventional with. Since I got at a good price I feel I’ll still come out ahead. 125.00 for an aba I think is excellent, you did good imo. I like to tinker and gave up on the new electronic failures selling for a fortune. People may say mpc, pow is junk, but look on the forum, I see people having problems with the new bells and whistles EVERYDAY.

i believe in th KISS theory. Just my 2 cents,

Jsulli21 posted:

Ponz posted:

Oh boy.  I'm beginning to have a bit of buyer's remorse.  I just purchased, from a forum member, An MPC F3, Pensy ABA in Tuscon Red for what I though was little money, I guess, $125.  I should have researches first.

I now understand what I bought.  I don't want to look like a fool and renege on the deal.  I just hope it will pull several heavy cars and not sound like a coffee grinder or hair clipper.

Someone please put my mind at ease.

Ponz

Ponz.

i ran into a young guy who was selling trains that his dad who passed away had. I bought  a Mpc Chicago & Alton 4-6-4 steamer, an mpc great northern steamer 4-8-4 steamer and pw crane car, coal dump car and 3662 milk car for 300.00

i have 99% postwar and the mpc steamers were the first I purchased, actually second, I purchased the mpc 783 Hudson from him previously and put in a ERR railsound board, excellent whistle and bell upgrade. A keeper.

i love them as the run and smoke like brand new engines, they have sound of steam which is very primitive but goes with the history of the era. I put new foam on the boards in the tenders as it deteriorated over time, and to prevent them from shorting out, pullmore motors which I can service. They add color to the layout and I can’t find anything wrong with them. Everyone has their opinions but I think I did well purchasing them and have no regrets. I may upgrade the boards with the ERR rail sounds,which I can still run conventional with. Since I got at a good price I feel I’ll still come out ahead. 125.00 for an aba I think is excellent, you did good imo. I like to tinker and gave up on the new electronic failures selling for a fortune. People may say mpc, pow is junk, but look on the forum, I see people having problems with the new bells and whistles EVERYDAY.

i believe in th KISS theory. Just my 2 cents,

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks - that makes me feel better

Ponz

$125 for an F-3 ABA set is a great bargain!  Enjoy it. 

Ponz....after all the problems I have had with modern LIONEL and MTH....I'll stick with PW,MPC,and LTI.....joe

joe krasko posted:

Ponz....after all the problems I have had with modern LIONEL and MTH....I'll stick with PW,MPC,and LTI.....joe

LTI  ??

Ponz posted:

joe krasko posted:

Ponz....after all the problems I have had with modern LIONEL and MTH....I'll stick with PW,MPC,and LTI.....joe

LTI  ??

Lionel Trains Inc.

MPC trains are basic but they have proven themselves to be reliable, good running train. If you wish to keep it simple and affordable MPC is the ticket.  I really like MPC engines, operating, and passengers cars but not the stripped bright color plain plastic heat stamped box cars.

It's very easy to poo-poo MPC from today's perspective and products, but in the late 1970's and early 80's, it was the second coming of Lionel.

The 3-Rail O market would not be what it is today if it wasn't for MPC.

Rusty

Over winter I bought the AA set of PRR tuscan F3's.   I had to install new traction tires, lube them, and had some trouble with the "dummy" coupler on the lead powered A unit.  I replaced that and they run great! 

Yes they buzz, but I may or may not even mind that- if it really bothers me- I'll install a Dallee reverse unit.  

I wanted to install and engineer and conductor- but in the A unit with the two motors- no room.  So- I installed the figures in the dummy A, run the powered A backwards as the second loco, pushing the dummy A- and who can tell!!

At $100 I think they are fine.  

When I hear of DC sets I can think of some Marx, but never found a listing for an MPC DC train set.

I've been in the hobby since 1970. The MPC era was a very fun time. We would drool over new catalogs, go to Town House TV and Appliance and buy what we could afford. At first they would run around the Xmas tree. Then we built a table in the basement. 

Today I have new stuff, but I still have all my MPC trains I ever bought, and they all get on the tracks every year. 

I have just about a complete collection of the entire high end MPC series. Sets, Locos, Cars, etc. and I love MPC

No issues what so ever and parts are still available, even some of the circuit boards for horns or sound of steam can be found NOS or repaired. All of my items are near mint and run perfectly out of the box.  Brand new can still be found at shows for great prices. Better then the Chinese paper weights being imported these days...

  I've always liked MPC and, as others have noted, in general the trains perform well. In addition, they blend in well with post war Lionel and they don't look too bad with pre-war Lionel either.  My carpet central December 1981.

MPC seem to be Lionel’s equivalent of the AMF era at Harley-Davidson. A lot of people say harsh things about AMF, and quite a few of those things contain varying degrees of truth, but AMF saved H-D. There would BE no modern H-D without them, for all their undoubted mistakes. 

 I discovered this MPC thread just today. Being in my 50's a lot of my Lionel was MPC.  20 years ago I went on a buying spree and did not pay that much (well its all relative).  I have the Bicentennial Set and most of the cars (except Virginia of course). I have some of the Disney items and a few Jeeps. I like the F3 ABA New Haven set in white/orange and black I have to find one of those. I do enjoy the newer scale Lionel and MTH command control- but electronic stuff can go awry . MPC is bullet proof and very simple more toy like then scale like (except those Hudson's). I always wondered if MPC would "possibly" be the next big collectible in toy trains, and it does not matter if they are collectible or not I still enjoy my MPC.

Balshis posted:

Dan Padova posted:

david1 posted:

Dan Padova posted:

I've never heard of the Mini-Max boxcar.  Anyone have more info on it ?

I had one and it was very small car with two trucks that only two wheels. It was blue and white.

In Europe, four wheeled freight cars are common.  There must have been some sort of prototype for Lionel to have made the Mini-Max.  I suspect they were in the lower price range.  

Dan is correct.  The only time I saw a photo of the Mini-Max prototype, was in the early Seventies, in one of the railroad hobby magazines.  That was why I was motivated to buy the Lionel version when it came out.  I might add that although I bought mine brand-new in the box, it never contained any plastic crates.

If I recall correctly, the idea behind the Mini-Max was that it would be used to haul lightweight, high-volume cargo.  Since I never saw one lettered for anything but General Mills, I presume what they had in mind was cereal, but I don't know for certain.

I can't remember any more which magazine ran the photo -- either RMC or MR.  Many's the time I've searched online for that picture ever since, with no luck.

Incidentally, it seems the Lionel Mini-Max may be on its way to becoming a collector's item.  I've seen them selling for $10 up to $30, both online and at train shows.

Mine DID come with 3 plastic pallet/load pairs.  Each pair consisted of a wooden colored pallet with what looked like a big, wrapped, cubic load.  My pallets were beige with yellowish loads.  I've seen pictures of loads others have posted that differed in both the pallet and load colors.  I know there are some cars that have the General Mills logo on the 4th column while others have it on the 5th column.  There were some that were produced in a darker colored molded plastic also.

One thing to look out for is that Lionel inserted directions in each box for removing some plastic body support sprues that were left in for shipping.  Doing that weakened the body which over time caused many of the roofs to sag.  Luckily, I didn't remove the ones on mine.

I never knock MPC, although I've sold and let a lot of it go over the years just because I can only own and store so much.

Think of the advantages...

More road names and colorful locomotives and rolling stock

Smoother running, longer trains with the Delran trucks

Some new rolling stock and locomotive designs--HiCubes, U36Bs, SD40s, etc.

Great for those with nostalgia for the railroading of the 1970s

Cheaper to buy today

My first MPC "crush" was the Chessie NW-2 switcher. Parents couldn't find it, so I got the PRR NW-2 as a birthday present instead. Eventually got the Chessie, still have the PRR.

GREAT THREAD! ☺

Thank goodness for MPC. There would be no Lionel if they didn't take over the trains when they did. General Mills realized Lionel still had a great name and reputation. The guys that had Lionel Trains when they were kids, now had kids and they wanted them to have a Lionel Train. MPC had a huge job ahead of them when they took over. They did some impressive stuff to get trains out for Christmas, like the GP-9 Illinois Central. For handrail posts they used the metal posts from the old Lionel log cars. They later changed them. Once they got going they really moved right along. A GP20, fast angle wheels for really long trains, SD18 with six wheel trucks and some of the older style steam engines appeared. The Trainmaster in black widow, GG1s, U36C, dual motor F-3 and the aluminum passenger cars that everyone was waiting for. High cube box cars and something new called Standard "O" series cars with sprung die-cast trucks. There seemed to be an endless flow of new boxcars, and billboard reefers. Boxcars sold for $7.20 Even a new track system called Trutrack, but it never came out. Yes, MPC came along at the right time. Don

One can take the body off a 9700 box, and put a 6464 on it.

Big question:  Why did Lionel use as the first fast action truck a model of a rarely used, except on some express boxcars and refers.

When I had MPC trains, I loved them.

Actually, there is some TruTrack out there:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...56#56897700566787056

This subject has come up before and I posted that I thought the stuff of that era was crap.  The trains generally had nice paint jobs and looked great but the two engines I bought my son couldn't pull there own shadow.  They wobbled down the track like a duck once you helped them get moving.  The trucks had seams in them like they came out of a mold.  That killed what little interest my son had in model trains.  Myself, I waited until MTH came out with some real quality stuff in the late 90s before I got back in the hobby.

Dennis

TINPLATE ART, I agree - great thread.  MPC brought some great color to the hobby too.  My favorites were the Blue Comet and the Chessie Steam Special.  They had the ‘Mighty Sound of Steam’ and the Chessie Berk introduced an electronic whistle. Archaic by today’s standards, but compared to the traditional whistling tenders of the post war era, my Dad, brothers and I thought it was great.  So much so, my Dad added a whistle to the Blue Comet as well.  Here is a clip from Christmas last year with both train sets racing around the tree with the whistles blaring away   

Dennis posted:

This subject has come up before and I posted that I thought the stuff of that era was crap.  The trains generally had nice paint jobs and looked great but the two engines I bought my son couldn't pull there own shadow.  They wobbled down the track like a duck once you helped them get moving.  The trucks had seams in them like they came out of a mold.  That killed what little interest my son had in model trains.  Myself, I waited until MTH came out with some real quality stuff in the late 90s before I got back in the hobby.

Dennis

What engines were those? 

I had (and, in some cases, still have) some MPC items I got in the 70’s - 80’s and they put out some great stuff. I have a GG1, and Pennsy and NYC ABA sets. Each had no issue pulling 7-8 aluminum passenger cars (I believe they are 15” cars) - the GG1 was the best puller.

Found this. 

https://www.trainz.com/pages/t...-large-steam-engines

Dennis posted:

This subject has come up before and I posted that I thought the stuff of that era was crap.  The trains generally had nice paint jobs and looked great but the two engines I bought my son couldn't pull there own shadow.  They wobbled down the track like a duck once you helped them get moving.  The trucks had seams in them like they came out of a mold.  That killed what little interest my son had in model trains.  Myself, I waited until MTH came out with some real quality stuff in the late 90s before I got back in the hobby.

Dennis

Well, I tells ya...

Back when I was hot 'n' heavy into MPC (and Postwar) back in the 80's, it was the most fun I had with model railroading either before or since.  Warts and all...

Rusty

When I got back into the hobby around 1990, MPC items were the bulk of what I bought, because it was relatively cheap and plentiful. Steam, GPs, U Boats, N5c cabooses and all those colorful boxcars and reefers. I still love the stuff.

Rusty Traque posted:

Dennis posted:

This subject has come up before and I posted that I thought the stuff of that era was crap.  The trains generally had nice paint jobs and looked great but the two engines I bought my son couldn't pull there own shadow.  They wobbled down the track like a duck once you helped them get moving.  The trucks had seams in them like they came out of a mold.  That killed what little interest my son had in model trains.  Myself, I waited until MTH came out with some real quality stuff in the late 90s before I got back in the hobby.

Dennis

Well, I tells ya...

Back when I was hot 'n' heavy into MPC (and Postwar) back in the 80's, it was the most fun I had with model railroading either before or since.  Warts and all...

Rusty

I had very good luck running MPC era stuff, and I had a lot of it. I agree, it was some of the most fun I've had, too.

Dennis posted:

This subject has come up before and I posted that I thought the stuff of that era was crap.  The trains generally had nice paint jobs and looked great but the two engines I bought my son couldn't pull there own shadow.  They wobbled down the track like a duck once you helped them get moving.  The trucks had seams in them like they came out of a mold.  That killed what little interest my son had in model trains.  Myself, I waited until MTH came out with some real quality stuff in the late 90s before I got back in the hobby.

Dennis

My experience with MPC was quite different. Yes, there were problems here and there, but some nice trains were produced and when I got back into the hobby in 1986, I bought up a lot of them.  With few exceptions, they looked good and ran well for me. 

I am a “toy train guy,” in no way a “Hi-rail enthusiast.” Perhaps our different expectations account for our difference of opinion.

(And they sure were very reasonably priced, too!)

Macy's had the very last Lionel (MPC) sales layout I ever saw. It was a simple 4x8 layout in the San Rafael store. Don't know if Lionel made it or the store. I looked at it every time I went in the store. Wanted the GP9 IC engine. It was still there after Christmas and I got it for $18. Should have bought everything on the layout. Those engines ran very well. Never had a problem with them. I became a dealer the next year and can't recall ever have a return on any of the MPC engines. Don

The B. Altmans in White Plains had a Lionel layout up through the mid-80's. They had it up right after Halloween until Christmas. I remember it had two trains running and one of them was the Reading Yard King set, so I think that was 83 or so. It was not big, probably 4x8 but it was fun anyways. Also, the Abraham and Strauss in Paramus had a large Lionel layout as well during the MPC era. Sadly, both stores are gone...

I've never owned much of the cheaper mpc engines.  My only complaints were: 1 the non repairable engine trucks that had the side frames swedged on, 2- plastic gears in the engine drive train.  So I stayed away from them.  I don't mind buying the shells and using them on mpc magnatraction chassis.

The higher end stuff usually didnt have that.  Some GPs, GG-1s, steam engines, FMs, were remakes of postwar and were fabulous runners for me. 

Now that they are so cheap its harder to resist picking up additional pieces.

I've never had an mpc-LTI  engine: fail to respond to the remote; get 3 clanks; get stuck in reverse; etc.  They just keep running.

My 8020 Santa Fe alco  I put a postwar  200 series motor in it in . the  b unit I put a Williams true sound  LOVE it! same with my  GP Illinois 8030 MPC I added postwar magnet traction and postwar motor..

Bought these engines  back in the day (70's) when Mom threw all postwar trains out thinking they were bad..So I made sure they were just as good when I  got them as they are today..

The MPC later Fundimensions trains were enthusiastically welcomed by many in the hobby. I bought mostly rolling stock at first to run behind my childhood postwar Locos. I started buying some of the better diesel locomotives in the late 70's and purchased 4 or 5 of the larger steam locos before the prices got crazy. I still have the SP,Wabash,Santa Fe,CNW and Virginian FMs,the Green PRR and Black PC GG1 and the SP Daylight,UP,Burlington,Pennsy and NYC F3's with matching passenger consists. I have most of the Service Station and Famous American RR sets. The 8100 (746) N&W J and matching N&W cars are a favorite and a high point for that era. 

As I reflect on those times,I remember a lot of greedy speculators were buying up the better items and therefore drove the prices of the better items way,way up in the late 1980's. I remember going to meets and seeing the crazy asking prices for the 783,784 and 785. The SP GS4's were nowhere to be found for less than 2K. As Karma would have it, all of these can be found like new for less than $300. So many of those trains were just collected and sadly never run or enjoyed. Today, All that product is hitting the market as collections come out of the woodwork for sale and auction and the prices are very affordable. 

Without a doubt Fundimensions made some great trains!

Ricky 

DanssuperO posted:

My 8020 Santa Fe alco  I put a postwar  200 series motor in it in . the  b unit I put a Williams true sound  LOVE it! same with my  GP Illinois 8030 MPC I added postwar magnet traction and postwar motor..

Bought these engines  back in the day (70's) when Mom threw all postwar trains out thinking they were bad..So I made sure they were just as good when I  got them as they are today..

My 8020 still has the original motor and gears (new brushes), runs like a champ, and has more hours on it than the real one probably did.

Cincytrains posted:

The B. Altmans in White Plains had a Lionel layout up through the mid-80's. They had it up right after Halloween until Christmas. I remember it had two trains running and one of them was the Reading Yard King set, so I think that was 83 or so. It was not big, probably 4x8 but it was fun anyways. Also, the Abraham and Strauss in Paramus had a large Lionel layout as well during the MPC era. Sadly, both stores are gone...

Steve...Gimbels also had a layout in Cross County Centre....See you at the county centre??....joe

palallin posted:

My 8020 still has the original motor and gears (new brushes), runs like a champ, and has more hours on it than the real one probably did.

MPC's revision of the postwar 200 series motor was one the best things they ever did. I have one MPC Alco, and a few GPs, with this motor, and they run beautifully. Although it's not considered the "better" motor, it's hard to find fault with something that works so well.

I, too, could never understand what was so wrong with plastic gears. At least not plastic idler gears. They are quiet, and I have never had one strip on me. And Lionel Corp used them, too - we have a 2245 Texas Special F3 with a plastic idler gear in the horizontal motor housing. And it, too, works just fine.

I grew up with the MPC era, and still have my first set from '78 (I was 2).

Everything still works, and I still run the engine regularly.  After many miles, it has only needed tires and oil.  It sounds great (all the mechanical noises), it looks great (the wheel sparks) and it even smells great (ozone and graphite from the motor).

My only complaint is that the chuff is super loud and artificial, so I usually leave it disconnected.  Actually thinking of bringing it into the 21st century by installing an ERR Steam Railsounds board into the tender.  Despite the very solid engine, the cars are lightweight plastic.  They have survived great, but I prefer other rolling stock, like postwar and K-Line.

Getting ready to once again pair it with some nicer cars in preparation for the holiday trips around the tree.

I have a large tube of a product called "Lubraplate". It used to be advertised in OGR, but I have not seen it in there in a while, anyway, I use it on my plastic geared MPC engines. It seems to work fine. Lubraplate is supposed to be formulated just for plastic gears. I have no reason to doubt that. I cannot recall having any problems with the plastic gears either. 

Are the MPC  F3's New Haven # 8851 any good? Are they metal or plastic gearing etc? Thanks

Seacoast posted:

Are the MPC  F3's New Haven # 8851 any good? Are they metal or plastic gearing etc? Thanks

I really don't remember if the gears were metal or plastic, but way back when, I used the drives with repro CP shells and pulled 5 Williams 15" streamliners for hours with them at train shows.

Rusty

"Lubriplate" (with an 'i') has been around a long time.  Some, but not all of their products are branded as plastic-compatible.  So for the last 25 years or so, I've been using Labelle 106 with Teflon.

The MPC New Haven F-units are very high quality trains, and were GREAT runners when they came out.  I would endorse them with or without plastic gears.

I played with MPC trains growing up, and for a long time afterward.  Even after a decade of childhood abuse, high-speed reversing, etc., we personally never had any failures of the nylon worm wheel, or the nylon spur gears on the side of the truck.  I'm not saying that it never happens, but metal gears can split too.  I've come to conclude that the plastic vs. metal thing is more about the perception of quality than actual performance.

Every era of Lionel has treasured gems, so I'd like to know what people consider the best of the best of the MPC years, you know the "must haves," the top performers whether you collect or run.

JBUETTNER,

The Chessie Steam Special set should be at the top of anyone's MPC "must have" list. I bought mine new 40 years ago. I still treasure it to this day.

Ted S posted:

  I've come to conclude that the plastic vs. metal thing is more about the perception of quality than actual performance.

Absolutely true of far more than just gears.

Yeah, the Chessie Steam Special Set was one of my first deliberate forays into the MPC era. Had the opportunity to reproduce the fragile sign for myself and others a while back:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...91#82100772935782791

The Amtrak ABA F3's.

JBuettner posted:

Every era of Lionel has treasured gems, so I'd like to know what people consider the best of the best of the MPC years, you know the "must haves," the top performers whether you collect or run.

 

Certainly the “Famous American Railroads” series would count. The Blue Comment and the Southern Crescent and the Alton Limited passenger sets. The Burlington Zephyr F-3 aluminum passenger set, too.

The SP FM Trainmaster, Green GG-1, UP F-3s (if color matched). Some nice stuff!

Dave Warburton posted:

JBuettner posted:

Every era of Lionel has treasured gems, so I'd like to know what people consider the best of the best of the MPC years, you know the "must haves," the top performers whether you collect or run.

 

Certainly the “Famous American Railroads” series would count. The Blue Comment and the Southern Crescent and the Alton Limited passenger sets. The Burlington Zephyr F-3 aluminum passenger set, too.

The SP FM Trainmaster, Green GG-1, UP F-3s (if color matched). Some nice stuff!

Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha

tncentrr posted:

JBUETTNER,

The Chessie Steam Special set should be at the top of anyone's MPC "must have" list. I bought mine new 40 years ago. I still treasure it to this day.

I don’t disagree but the Blue Comet has some Lionel legacy that’s hard to beat. I still have both.

I'll add the engines available only from the J C Penny Christmas catalog (except for the infamous Santa Fe Chop nose GP), and the first 12 or so Standard O cars. Producing those cars really put Lionel on the path to Hi-Rail sized engines and other rolling stock.

Chris

LVHR

Daniel Raible posted:

I grew up with the MPC era, and still have my first set from '78 (I was 2).

Everything still works, and I still run the engine regularly.  After many miles, it has only needed tires and oil.  It sounds great (all the mechanical noises), it looks great (the wheel sparks) and it even smells great (ozone and graphite from the motor).

 

I bought that same set for my son the year he was born ('78). He still has it.

That picture of the upside down railing on the Obs has bothered me since I was 15!

Jon  

KOOLjock1 posted:

That picture of the upside down railing on the Obs has bothered me since I was 15!

Jon  

Jon, get a grip.....LOL

I thinned down my collection but retained all my Postwar Lionel and MPC.  My MPC engines consists of the NYC Hudson, Southern Pacific FM, Virginian rectifier, Alaska NW2, and the Rio Grande Service station set. I have never had any issues with these engines and I love the simplicity and ease of maintenance and repair.

rjsmithindy posted:

tncentrr posted:

JBUETTNER,

The Chessie Steam Special set should be at the top of anyone's MPC "must have" list. I bought mine new 40 years ago. I still treasure it to this day.

I don’t disagree but the Blue Comet has some Lionel legacy that’s hard to beat. I still have both.

Another "blue beauty" was the scarce Wabash Fallen Flags passenger set.

Another huge achievement of the MPC era - the Disney set. A real crowd pleaser. Stunning and unsurpassed graphics and colors. 

breezinup posted:

rjsmithindy posted:

I don’t disagree but the Blue Comet has some Lionel legacy that’s hard to beat. I still have both.

Another "blue beauty" was the scarce Wabash Fallen Flags passenger set.

Both great sets for their time and continue to look fantastic even now!

Has Lionel ever produced a good can motored chassis with sound for this tooling?

I've recently acquired the Norfolk & Western set, the SP 4449 set and the Alton Limited. 

More or less new in box. I really like them. I've always been a tinplate guy but I just can't stop picking up some of the nicer MPC era stuff.

I'd really like to add some more of it to my collection. I knew I was in trouble when I bypassed the prewar section and went straight to the MPC section at my local train shop! 

I'm hoping to get that Wabash set soon.

Wow this thread is an oldie!  @BobbyD the LionChief Plus 4-6-2 Pacific is a good runner with can motor and sound.  The domes and front-end details of the boiler casting are pretty similar to the Wabash (which itself was derived from the postwar 2055.)  You could probably create a "10-footer" clone with a good custom paint job.  In the special case of your 672, you would also have to figure out how to transplant the smoke deflectors.  The C&O 8603 or Santa Fe 8900 from FARR set #1 would be very easy to fake.

I've been hinting to Lionel for a while that they should make an "MPC Celebration Series" targeted to us boomers and Gen-Xers who grew up with MPC.  With the LionChief Pacific and 726-style Berk they have decent stand-ins for some of the most iconic sets.  I would love to see a LionChief Plus 726 in Chessie paint!!  They also have Geeps and Legacy F3s with postwar styling as used on the Neil Young Signature Line. 

To my eyes, the LionChief Hudson boiler is noticeably different from the 8600 (originally 2046), so I'm not sure what they would use to recreate the Crescent, the Blue Comet, or the Alton Limited.  Still I think this is very doable and a potential moneymaker, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it at some point.

@Ted S posted:

...Hudson boiler is noticeably different from the 8600 (originally 2046)...

Derived from the 726... which was  was originally tooled for the 226E...

Very true Rob.  Not exactly sure of the mounting points, but perhaps they could bolt the 6-drivered chassis from the LionChief Pacific into the "new" 726 boiler.  The circle of life repeats itself!

Ted S, I've been having a lot of fun getting into the MPC stuff and felt this was a good place to talk about it. No need to make a new post when one already exists. 

I'm just glad the MPC stuff is getting the love it deserves. Like many things it had to deal with an unfair bias for a bit.

I still enjoy my Marx and my Prewar Lionel but lately the MPC stuff is holding my attention. 

My entire collection is primarily MPC/Fundimensions. It all runs well and overall is as simple to repair as postwar Lionel. In its early years MPC faced an uphill climb on two counts -- first, Lionel had already been aggressively cutting costs and cutting back on quality in its final years. Second, times were moving on and the postwar materials and production methods had to at least partially change.

So there was a ramp-up period of both bringing back postwar engineering quality and adapting to more modern production realities. That's why there were some false starts with Delrin gear drives and early traction tire use. Today, those are solved problems and we tend to take them for granted, but the realities of those had to be worked out "the hard way" in the early years of MPC. By the late 1970's and early 1980's, MPC (now Fundimensions) was able to produce trains on par with postwar Lionel, but with more modern materials and with paintwork that was beyond what was possible in the postwar era.

If there was one manufacturing process used in the MPC/Fundimensions era that irked me, it was the use of an adhesive to connect wiring to the copper "wiper" pickups on trucks for the outer rail return side of electrical circuits. No solder -- the wire was held to the copper strip with a clear adhesive. It would either come loose, or it would get pulled into the braided wire by capillary action and harden, making the connection too stiff so the wire would break. It got to be routine for me to just re-work those connections with proper solder right out of the box. Somewhere along the way, I'm pretty sure solder returned, but not until I'd re-worked an entire Blue Comet and Chicago and Alton set, most Sound of Steam tenders, plus numerous cabooses. And then the problem with any factory-soldered connections on rolling stock items was all-too-frequent improper "cold" solder joint that would still fail. Soldering on locomotives' e-units and motors was generally fine. It was always the rolling stock that routinely had electrical quality control issues.

I am a a "Johnny come lately" on this MPC question, but MAYBE I have some perspective. 

Three years ago I started in the O gauge hobby after HO, intending to only buy and run postwar stuff.  So- I began w/ a 2055 then a 2026 steamer, 624 diesel switcher etc- all from the 1949- 55 period.  All run great, and I was blown away that a TOY, built in probably the highest-cost labor market, in the USA, could be that good- 70 years later.

Then wanting some PRR F7s, I bought an MPC-era set, and they were different  - but still great.  Then I tried Lion Chief Plus diesels and a steam engine- again, great.  Finally, lately I have been buying some new Legacy (F7 AA Set plus/ the Super Bass) , but used TMCC stuff.

Conclusions??  General Mills/ MPC fought the fight for 16 years, I am sure never making money on trains through the period.  That's a LONG time in corporate America, if you lose money more often than you make money.  They tried retailing- Lionel KiddieCity - re-introduced postwar product, tried producing in Mexico (but wisely bailed out fast when the quality could not be there), tried everything they could.  Kudos to them- without MPC, no Lionel today.  Probably no O Gauge at all, today.

The came Richard P. Kughn, another reason why Lionel has survived.  Under his leadership TMCC was developed (with Neal Young etc,)  and the seeds of Legacy were sown.  Did Kughn make money?  We'll never know, but, maybe not. 

Out of Lionel by way of Weaver came Mike Wolf and MTH.  His innovation forced the market to go toward scale- attracting many of us HO guys with sore eyes.  We and Lionel all gained from the move.  Now, Lionel is in business, doing what they have to to make money in the current environment of plastic, Made in China, and Built to Order- all necessary to keep the doors open.

We should all feel thankful we are able to enjoy the hobby, due to a series of lucky strokes mixed with some genius.  Have fun- run your trains!!

A year ago I bought a Pennsylvania F3 Tuscan A-A essentially new for 90 bucks and a Milwaukee Road A for 45. I would do that again tomorrow.

@Ted S posted:

Very true Rob.  Not exactly sure of the mounting points, but perhaps they could bolt the 6-drivered chassis from the LionChief Pacific into the "new" 726 boiler.  The circle of life repeats itself!

Exactly. The Pacific boiler is close to the postwar small Hudson one and would work fine as a LC+ Hudson. The one they use now is attractive but undersized. 

Thanks for resurrecting this thread, RamblerDon, which I find very interesting. Also, thanks Eric and Mike for your contributions, including providing a brief history of Lionel since the Postwar era.

I have lots of Postwar, love the quality of Postwar trains from 1949 through 1955, a few nice Lionel items made in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and a lot of modern, especially MTH Railking, and LC+.

I have nothing from the MPC era, steered away from it thinking, perhaps erroneously, that it was inferior. I will have more of an open mind about it now.

Arnold

Most of my post-war trains were given to me as gifts from my parents. I started buying my own trains in college around 1973 in the MPC era and was amazed at the “improvements” over post-war!!! The (then) amazing mighty sound of steam... steam engines that all weren’t black... and very colorful freight cars. I bought quite a bit of MPC, and loved it - I really looked forward to each new catalog. With the advent of more scale offerings and command control, my MPC fell out of favor, and a lot of it I have gifted to new homes were they are enjoying a second life (including the SP Daylight and NKP Berkshire). I have kept and display several of my favorite MPC acquisitions… the Pennsylvania Tuscan F3 ABA and the 15” rib sided aluminum passenger cars, the New York Central F3 ABA and the 15” smooth side passenger cars, my first GG-1 (the Tuscan 5-stripe 8753), and the NYC 783 Hudson. I also have the gray NYC 785 Hudson, but I think that might have been post MPC. I have read a number of comments that MPC engines are under-powered, but both F3’s and the GG-1had no problem pulling their full consist of the aluminum cars.

The "underpowered" reputation came primarily from the starter train set small steamers. Outside of some early efforts which could be corrected in a repair shop, most anything derived from genuine postwar lineage tended to be fine. So the dual-motor F3s, the GG1's, the small Hudson and Berkshire derivatives, the N&W J and unique to the MPC era J-derived Daylight, the various postwar-derived diesels -- all of them could pull well and held up much like their postwar counterparts.

I too have a great fondness for MPC models having grown up in that era. They are great bargains in today's train market as well.

I have found my MPC locomotives robust and easy to repair. I have avoided the temptation to replace the E-Units with electronics and have learned how to restore the originals to good operating condition.

While I find it nostalgic, my wife is not fond of the "Sound of Steam".

I've been cleaning up my MPC rolling stock lately. Some of them date back to when I was 6 years old. I hadn't seen some of those cars in years, and were very dusty. As I rediscovered them, I remembered the stories behind them. They aren't worth anything, but they're valuable to me. 

@Don Winslow posted:

I too have a great fondness for MPC models having grown up in that era. They are great bargains in today's train market as well.

I have found my MPC locomotives robust and easy to repair. I have avoided the temptation to replace the E-Units with electronics and have learned how to restore the originals to good operating condition.

While I find it nostalgic, my wife is not fond of the "Sound of Steam". 

Wow, Don... those Pennsy GP’s look like the 8357/8358 - if they are, the powered unit was the first MPC engine I bought, probably around 1973 (from Jamesway in New London CT!!!). Picked up the dummy a couple of years later from Trainworld when it opened up on Ave. M in Brooklyn. Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

P.S. While the Mighty Sound of Steam was state of the art in the late 70’s, I have to begrudgingly agree with your wife - it hasn’t aged well  

@rjsmithindy posted:

@KOOLjock1 posted:

That picture of the upside down railing on the Obs has bothered me since I was 15!

I remember this thread! I guess I didn't catch the last few replies, and I certainly never noticed the upside railing on the Chessie Observation that Jon pointed out, despite literally wearing out those pages of the 1980 catalog as a kid.

For kicks, I dug out that car, but it looks like someone realized their mistake and corrected the problem.

Now I'm wondering if I should "uncorrect" it.

TRW

I have a SOS engine.  But could not plug it in while the family TV was on KPRC Channel 2 in Houston.  The tender must have put some radio wave interference into the air or AC line, because it tore up reception on 2.  And back in the day, reception on 2 was iffy depending on the weather, and passing traffic.

I know this is hard to believe but I actually like the Sound of Steam. I've dabbled in the newer stuff a bit and I really don't like the over abundance of noises. For me it is just too much. Especially any thing resembling crew chatter.

It might be static but it is the right amount of noise to me. I will say this though. An air whistle beats that electronic whistle any day.

I had a Blue Streak (1973) and the Sound of Steam was crisp and clear.  This loco didn't have a whistle.  Since, I've heard other locos like the Milwaukee with electronic whistle, that didn't sound as crisp.  And the versions made after 1980 or so sound very hoarse and noisy to my ears.  I think if more folks heard the early version they wouldn't be as critical.

@Dominic Mazoch We weren't allowed to run our trains on Sunday afternoon, because they interfered with the TV picture.  So I would watch football with my Dad and grandpop.  I'm an NFL fan to this day!!

Paul-the geeps are indeed numbers #8357/8358-I still have the boxes.

And Don-I'm with you on the Sound of Steam.

Don't forget MPC's "Election" cars. This one features a candidate I believe we'd all agree on!

If I ever find a set of all three at a great price I will pick up the election cars. I think they are neat. I'm shocked no one else has tried offering them since.

@Don Winslow posted:

Don't forget MPC's "Election" cars. This one features a candidate I believe we'd all agree on!

While I never had the election car, my very first set of passenger cars was the MPC brown Pennsy cars - world’s WORST dummy couplers!!! They looked great being pulled by my original post-war 637 steamer. Still have them packed away somewhere in the basement.

@Don Winslow posted:

Don't forget MPC's "Election" cars. This one features a candidate I believe we'd all agree on!

Unless you got hit by a hurricane of the same name!

Lionel MPC..........MADE IN AMERICA!  Need I say more.

@Apples55 posted:

While I never had the election car, my very first set of passenger cars was the MPC brown Pennsy cars - world’s WORST dummy couplers!!! They looked great being pulled by my original post-war 637 steamer. Still have them packed away somewhere in the basement.

They look good behind the PW 675 steamer.  Bet they also look good behind the pair of PRR geeps.  Almost got them except I went with the Amtral F3 ABA.  Figured early Amtrak used almost anything......

On the short hood on the Geeps,there seem to be some vents.  My guess is to vent heat from the motor and light.  But they seem to model the vents for a steam generator.  Very few Geeps had them, but maybe Lionel folowed the EMD "Form follows funtion."

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

I have a SOS engine.  But could not plug it in while the family TV was on KPRC Channel 2 in Houston.  The tender must have put some radio wave interference into the air or AC line, because it tore up reception on 2.  And back in the day, reception on 2 was iffy depending on the weather, and passing traffic.

Even today with HDTV Channel 2 is the most likely one to be impossible to get. 

Were all the Sound Of Steam units the same? 

At least MPC was smart enough to have dummy units for Geeps and U boats!

@Grampstrains posted:

 

did you forget the move to Mexico in 1983?

Last time I checked Mexico,was and is still is part of North America. Thus "Made in America" still applied. 

@Apples55 posted:

...my very first set of passenger cars was the MPC brown Pennsy cars - world’s WORST dummy couplers!!! They looked great being pulled by my original post-war 637 steamer. Still have them packed away somewhere in the basement.

I put together a set of those to pull behind my FARR 6200 version of the Pennsy Turbine... and I upgraded them by replacing all the trucks with the six-wheel versions. 

I do have a technical question for anyone who might know this. I recently picked up my 3rd engine from this era. A C&A Hudson. My issue is the magnetraction is very weak. This loco was brand new in the box when I got it. Were these on the weak side back in the day or is there something I should look at to correct this?

My other locomotives can hang a piece of track off the bottom but not this one.

Just reread these posts and I agree with many of the comments. And many MPC engines ( already mentioned-the GG1s, FM, later F3s, etc.) were reasonable quality and most ran right-out-the-box-so, as many have already said, they were "fun" and rarely anger producing. Also, for us nit-picker collectors, there were some interesting variations among, for example, the 9200 series boxcars and others. So, IMHO, they were a nice follow-up of the holy-grail and bridge into the more modern Lionel. 

Dennis Waldron is an authority on Postwar.  He occasionally posts here on the Forum.  He bought a lot of hardware and documents from the original Lionel factory, including a machine which can supposedly restore magne-traction.  If he's willing to do it, that's the only way I know of.  I'm pretty sure the magnets are embedded in the chassis and are not easily replaceable.

I'm curious, which locos are you comparing it to?  The most similar would be 8600 Empire State, 8702 Southern Crescent, 8801 Blue Comet, and the 8210 Joshua Lionel Cowen Hudson.  I'm guessing that an original postwar 2046 in good condition would probably be stronger.  I've heard some folks say to store your loco on a piece of tubular track because it acts as a "keeper" to preserve the strength of the permanent magnets.  If this has been sitting in its box for 39 years, some of the flux may be lost.

The Berkshires (736 and MPC clones) used a different placement of magnets, and I understand that they have a stronger grip on the rails, especially the last Berk made by MPC, the 8615 L&N / JC Penney, which had extra magnets added.  A good one of those sticks like glue!

Also make sure you are testing all of them with the same piece of track, because the ferrous content in the tinplate rail varied quite a bit over the years.  Again the old 1950s O probably had the highest iron content and best grip.   Honestly the condition of the wheel tread, whether the wheels and axles run "true" or eccentric, etc., probably impacts traction more than the strength of the magnetism.  My $.02.

I am using the same piece of track. I'm comparing it to the J reissue and the SP 4449 that was issued after that.

Perhaps they have more magnets also like the Berks. The J came from the same collection and was also stored in a box for years.

MPC's Milwaukee Special Passenger Train Is probably the longest train made during the MPC era. Between the add on cars the coupon car the campaign car and finally the dining car the train ended up with 11 cars that are listed below.

 9522 American Railway Express & Baggage
 9506 United States Mail Railway Post Office
 9503 City of Chicago
 9500 City of Milwaukee
 9505 City of Seattle
19003 Dining Car
 9504 City of Tacoma
 9501 City of Aberdeen
 9511 City of Minneapolis
 9502 President Washington Obs
 9527 F D Roosevelt Presidential Campaign Car
 
I didn't think that the small engine that came with the set could pull all of the cars, but it pulls them quite well.
 

Nice video, David!

Did you disconnect the Sound of Steam?

@turtle7 posted:

. . . there were some interesting variations among, for example, the 9200 series boxcars and others. So, IMHO, they were a nice follow-up of the holy-grail and bridge into the more modern Lionel. 

I met a dealer at the Billy Budd who specializes in MPC variations.  Quite fascinating the stuff he would bring to sell.  Last York one of his customers brought a 3 ring binder of professional photos of his MPC variations.   Some really gorgeous cars.