Need Niagara photos for weathering...now done opinions?

Ray Marion posted:

I am looking to weather my NYC Niagara and need color photos. I want it to look like its in service and not ready for the torch. Unfortunately most pics I have found are black and white. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Ray

Ray,

You might purchase the book "Know Thy Niagaras" from the New York Central Historical Society, or from other on line book sellers (the book isn't cheap, but it is the best out there). As a gauge, the NYC generally had VERY good water, so there would be a limited amount of white mineral water deposits in the boiler. Also, a feature which seemed to be typical of NYC main line road steam locomotives, was the very black soot deposits below the exhaust stack, on top of the smokebox (this effects is VERY difficult to reproduce on model steam locomotives). 

I just did a MSN search and 2 color photos popped up. One on Facebook and one on Pinterest., along with several black and white photos.

I'm not sure about reposting them anymore?

Ray Marion posted:

Thanks Ironman. I forgot about that book. I will have to check and see if my club has a copy. Thanks for the pic; I do have that one. I can't figure out the shiny side rods though. Wonder if they always are shiny. Hoping Jack (Hotwater) may help me.

Ray

Ray,

Generally ALL steam locomotive side and main rods are "shiny" right out of the servicing terminal. Remember that it was against ICC (now FRA) rules to paint any and all side/main rods, as the paint could/would hide any defects/cracks. Thus, locomotive right out of the shop, or servicing facilities would have clean "shiny" rods and nice black drives & running gear, as it all would have been steam cleaned prior to lubricating the bearings. Also note in that photo, the Engineer's cylinder head cover has been replaced and not yet painted. Just my opinion but, I don't believe that that locomotive is quite ready to be dispatched yet.

Hot Water posted:

Ray Marion posted:

Thanks Ironman. I forgot about that book. I will have to check and see if my club has a copy. Thanks for the pic; I do have that one. I can't figure out the shiny side rods though. Wonder if they always are shiny. Hoping Jack (Hotwater) may help me.

Ray

Ray,

Generally ALL steam locomotive side and main rods are "shiny" right out of the servicing terminal. Remember that it was against ICC (now FRA) rules to paint any and all side/main rods, as the paint could/would hide any defects/cracks. Thus, locomotive right out of the shop, or servicing facilities would have clean "shiny" rods and nice black drives & running gear, as it all would have been steam cleaned prior to lubricating the bearings. Also note in that photo, the Engineer's cylinder head cover has been replaced and not yet painted. Just my opinion but, I don't believe that that locomotive is quite ready to be dispatched yet.

Hi Jack, a question if I could, I’ve studied this photo before, and I can not say for 100% what all the yellow marks are. So rather than guess, I’d like to know what you say it is.....thanks!....Pat

Thanks Jack. That makes sense. I am trying to find that book. 

Joe I probably have those especially the pinterest. I think I need better resources but thanks for your help.

Ray

"New York Central System Gone But Not Forgotten Hardcover Cavanaugh NJ Book"
This book is all color, mostly diesel & electric but some steam. Nice locations & text & a real deal if you're a NYC fan. Also a good resource for weathering. Found it on ebay, $19.95, only 2 Niagra photos. Will send shortly.

Joe

harmonyards posted:

Hot Water posted:

Ray Marion posted:

Thanks Ironman. I forgot about that book. I will have to check and see if my club has a copy. Thanks for the pic; I do have that one. I can't figure out the shiny side rods though. Wonder if they always are shiny. Hoping Jack (Hotwater) may help me.

Ray

Ray,

Generally ALL steam locomotive side and main rods are "shiny" right out of the servicing terminal. Remember that it was against ICC (now FRA) rules to paint any and all side/main rods, as the paint could/would hide any defects/cracks. Thus, locomotive right out of the shop, or servicing facilities would have clean "shiny" rods and nice black drives & running gear, as it all would have been steam cleaned prior to lubricating the bearings. Also note in that photo, the Engineer's cylinder head cover has been replaced and not yet painted. Just my opinion but, I don't believe that that locomotive is quite ready to be dispatched yet.

Hi Jack, a question if I could, I’ve studied this photo before, and I can not say for 100% what all the yellow marks are. So rather than guess, I’d like to know what you say it is.....thanks!....Pat

I must admit that I don't see "all the yellow marks". I did see a lot of, what appears to be, sun-light reflections off the polished/cleaned rods and wheel treads. Then there is that big unpainted cylinder head cover.

Hot Water posted:

I must admit that I don't see "all the yellow marks". I did see a lot of, what appears to be, sun-light reflections off the polished/cleaned rods and wheel treads. Then there is that big unpainted cylinder head cover.

Looking through the "KTN" book, there are some color photos of Niagaras in not so good condition. It appears to me that the yellow might be some kind of primer paint. In a couple of photos, the yellow shows all over the boiler as if the black paint has peeled away.

I really didn't think my photos were exactly what you were looking for but figured it was a start. I scanned what I had, maybe someone will scan or photograph a few pictures out of the book for you.

Good luck! I'll be looking forward to the finished product.

Joe (Ironman)

ironman1 posted:

I really didn't think my photos were exactly what you were looking for but figured it was a start. I scanned what I had, maybe someone will scan or photograph a few pictures out of the book for you.

And THAT would be against the rules!

Good luck! I'll be looking forward to the finished product.

Joe (Ironman)

OK....I deleted photos in this thread because of copyright violations.  You CAN NOT scan books and post photos without permission by the author.  PLEASE read about this in the featured topics.  If you are going to copy pictures, then send this to each other via profile email and DON'T post them on this forum unless you have permission or you are the creator/owner of the photo....

I apologize, didn't realize. This picture, which was deleted, was taken by my uncle who worked for the Grand Central & the succeeding railroads since he was 17. He gave it to me after he retired with 40+ years of service, along with a box full of RR artifacts, about 20 years ago. He was quite proud of the photo especially after he realized how excited I was with his memorabilia. He passed over 10 years ago, never published a single photo & it is mine solely, to share.

Thanks. I like it a lot! Glad its yours.

Ray

Your welcome! Being a NYC fan & having a Grandfather & Uncle both working for the RR until they retired, I got overly enthusiastic with your request.

Joe

As an example:

Williams brass Niagara old snapshot; loco done 20+ years ago. Basic weathering can be fairly simple. I actually used a can of Testors flat black held straight over the loco from a couple of feet to get the sooty effect - this was after spraying the entire loco/tender with Dullcote (canned).

I painted all the tires and rods with good-quality acrylic flat black with a brush (good acrylic leaves no brush marks). The lightened underside/trucks, wheels were achieved with pigment powder, I believe.

It's basic (like the loco), but I like it. (Loco is ERR Cruise Commander equipped; renumbered from 6010 to 6011.) 

Thanks D500. Nice job

Joe. Thanks for the enthusiasm. Your pics are helpful and one of a kind. The book Hotwater recommended is expensive and only has black and white so I still am looking. I am very curios about his comment on the black soot by the exhaust stack. Going to have to keep a sharp eye for that .

Best

Ray

Ray:

Here are two photos of a weathered Niagara that I did for a NYC Jim six years ago (shown at our last Trainset setup in 2013).

Regards,

Jerry

Very nice weathering job Jerry, makes me wish I had a Niagara! Wondering what colors you used in the process.

Hi Jerry, didn’t you also do a number of locomotives photographed on Hot Waters layout?

ironman1 posted:

Hi Jerry, didn’t you also do a number of locomotives photographed on Hot Waters layout?

Well sort of, yes. Jerry photographed many locomotives on our layout, however all of my locomotives were weathered by Gene Kutina, of Chicago, while Jerry weathered all of his own locomotives. 

I remember the B&O EM-1.

ironman1 posted:

I remember the B&O EM-1.

Yes, that belonged to Little John, who rebuilt/repaired it for a client and had Jerry weather it also. Jerry may have some photos of my two NYC Niagaras (one Sunset/3rd Rail and one MTH) , and the MTH NYC roller bearing rod equipped Mohawk.  

Hot Water posted:

ironman1 posted:

Hi Jerry, didn’t you also do a number of locomotives photographed on Hot Waters layout?

Well sort of, yes. Jerry photographed many locomotives on our layout, however all of my locomotives were weathered by Gene Kutina, of Chicago, while Jerry weathered all of his own locomotives. 

Jack:

I've looked thru every file I've got to see if I had any photos of your Niagaras or the Mohawk, and came up blank.  What I did find, however, is a photo of a CB&Q M-4 basking in the moonlight.  Wish I could have found this before the M-4 thread got locked.  A fine Kutina weathering job. 

Regards,

Jerry

ironman1 posted:

I remember the B&O EM-1.

I think that would be this bad boy, photographed on Hot Water's railroad.

Regards,

Jerry

ironman1 posted:

Very nice weathering job Jerry, makes me wish I had a Niagara! Wondering what colors you used in the process.

Back then, it was all done with Floquil weathering colors, on the Niagara, primarily Grimy Black, Grime, and a small smidge of rust.  Now that Floquil is no more, I'd have to experiment with some replacements.  I'm back in my 1:87 world, and I've been doing some weathering with an Iwata airbrush and their weathering colors.  Also doing a lot with pastels, but so far, only buildings.  One of these days, I'm going to bite the bullet and start doing weathering on the Spokane Southern's MP&E. 

There is a lot of guys doing weathering with dry brushing and acrylic washes, and I really like the look of it.  Will start off on a couple of Athearn cars that I don't care much about, and move on from there. 

Regards,

Jerry

Hello Jerry

     Thanks for the photos, I am glad you posted. Is it me or did the locos seem to end up looking very "gray" ? The few pictures I have seem to be more black. I appreciate all the input given. 

Ray

Ray,
The bottom line is that it is your engine. Do your research as best that you can and weather your loco the way that is pleasing to you...not someone else's vision!

Big Jim posted:

Ray,
The bottom line is that it is your engine. Do your research as best that you can and weather your loco the way that is pleasing to you, not someone else's vision.

+1. Weather from the prototype, not a model. If you can't find enough pictures of a Niagara in color look at other similar locomotives or other NYC locomotives which likely received the same lack of care in their later years.

There is also youtube which has a number of videos in color of the New York Central.

Pete

I think looking for similar engines of the same railroad is a good start. Because of how an image is photographed, developed & printed, color photos can be deceiving. The one photo of mine that still is posted here, the 3/4 front shot, shows a fairly dirty engine. The smoke deflector, & boiler show a lot of soot and the finish is very dull. If you look further down at the tender, it appears to show very little weathering or road grime, some on the running gear. You can even see a glossy refection on the side. It clearly still looks black. Looking past the tender, what little you can see, the train behind the tender also looks black, but I'd bet for sure they aren't, my point about the printing & developing. It's unfortunate there isn't a companion photo showing more of a side view.

I guess the point is, everyone has there own preference to what looks good to them. Like Big Jim said, weather it to your satisfaction, not the vision of someone else. Lighting is critical when applying the effect & should be similar to the layout lighting. Natural lighting is very different from our layout lighting. Weathering is subjective & one thing for sure, once you've gone to far, you can't go back.

Pastels are a good alternative to paint, especially if you are afraid of overdoing it, and they can be removed almost 100% easily. The downside is, they do rub off easily & finger prints will show. You can seal the effect with a clear spray but that will mute the effect.

If you are afraid of ruining a favorite engine, experiment on one that isn't a favorite. Usually when you think it can use just a bit more, you should probably stop. Live with it at that point & run it on your layout for awhile.

Joe

Ray:

Here is the Google search that will give you a few Niagara color photos to go from.  

https://www.google.com/search?...mgrc=LSn67f4oaK9AQM:

I can't repost them here, so hopefully this helps.

Regards.

Jerry

Jerry

Thanks for the links. I think I have enough to work with. I just want to avoid that all gray appearance and keep the more black coloring. I still am curious how that soot stain Jack referred to looks like.

Ray

Ray Marion posted:

Jerry

Thanks for the links. I think I have enough to work with. I just want to avoid that all gray appearance and keep the more black coloring. I still am curious how that soot stain Jack referred to looks like.

 

Ray

     

Could he have been thinking about oil burning engines?
I do have photos of N&W locos showing where cinders have collected up on top of the boiler.

Big Jim posted:

Ray Marion posted:

Jerry

Thanks for the links. I think I have enough to work with. I just want to avoid that all gray appearance and keep the more black coloring. I still am curious how that soot stain Jack referred to looks like.

 

Ray

     

Could he have been thinking about oil burning engines?

Nope. NYC didn't have any oil burning 4-8-4s, nor 4-8-2s, nor 4-6-4s, nor 2-8-2s, etc..  After doing much research of prototype photos, something to do with their famous NYC "not coal", there was generally a VERY totally flat black coating of soot on top of the smokebox, all around the exhaust stack. My long time friend and customers painter, Gene Kutina, developed a special weathering process in order to exactly duplicate that "very flat black sooty" appearance on both of my NYC Niagara models, as well as my various Mohawk models and one or two Hudson models.

Since my big desk top Apple computer crashed, I no longer have any of my model photos available for posting.

I do have photos of N&W locos showing where cinders have collected up on top of the boiler.

Ray Marion posted:

Jerry

Thanks for the links. I think I have enough to work with. I just want to avoid that all gray appearance and keep the more black coloring. I still am curious how that soot stain Jack referred to looks like.

Ray

Have seen a lot of weathered models that appear to just be frosted in too much gray. 

Hot Water posted:

Big Jim posted:

Ray Marion posted:

Jerry

Thanks for the links. I think I have enough to work with. I just want to avoid that all gray appearance and keep the more black coloring. I still am curious how that soot stain Jack referred to looks like.

 

Ray

     

Could he have been thinking about oil burning engines?

Nope. NYC didn't have any oil burning 4-8-4s, nor 4-8-2s, nor 4-6-4s, nor 2-8-2s, etc..  
Duh!
After doing much research of prototype photos, something to do with their famous NYC "not coal", there was generally a VERY totally flat black coating of soot on top of the smokebox, all around the exhaust stack.
The only thing that I see is that the entire smokebox area is some shade of a flat color. In some photos, the extreme front end (not face) of the smokebox from bottom to top and maybe 18" wide is a much darker flat color.
My long time friend and customers painter, Gene Kutina, developed a special weathering process in order to exactly duplicate that "very flat black sooty" appearance on both of my NYC Niagara models, as well as my various Mohawk models and one or two Hudson models.
Photos of models prove nothing! We need to see photos of the real thing.

Since my big desk top Apple computer crashed, I no longer have any of my model photos available for posting.

I do have photos of N&W locos showing where cinders have collected up on top of the boiler.

 

Jack

   I still would like to see if you ever recover those photos. Any reference will help. 

Ray

ironman1 posted:

I apologize, didn't realize. This picture, which was deleted, was taken by my uncle who worked for the Grand Central & the succeeding railroads since he was 17. He gave it to me after he retired with 40+ years of service, along with a box full of RR artifacts, about 20 years ago. He was quite proud of the photo especially after he realized how excited I was with his memorabilia. He passed over 10 years ago, never published a single photo & it is mine solely, to share.

Thanks Ironman1 for letting us know.  In the future, any photos from your Uncle, please make sure you note that in the thread so that the mods and software don't delete them....

Arnold

     Thanks for the correction. That picture is what effect I am looking for.

Jack (Hotwater)  Still would like to see the effect of soot.

"I do have photos of N&W locos showing where cinders have collected up on top of the boiler."

Thanks

Ray

That smoke box front of late NYC power has an odd look.  Not graceful.  Makes the locomotive lopk as if it is on grat pain !

Dominic Mazoch posted:

That smoke box front of late NYC power has an odd look.  Not graceful.  Makes the locomotive lopk as if it is on grat pain !

I believe that design was referred to as the "Selkirk Front End", which improved drafting, cinder removal, and efficiency. 

You have made your comments about that NYC front being "ugly" or "odd", many, MANY times over the last many, MANY years. Please give it a rest!

First engine done for now. Spray flatcote, hand paint and powders. Am I missing anything? Thanks for all the help with pics.

Ray, I think you nailed the look you were after, any further & you might be sorry. Just enough to show regular use but not being totally neglected.

Just for a comparison, before & after shots might help. I know its a black engine but your lighting may even make the black look a little grey. If you have another that you're looking to weather, maybe a little more on the drivers, similar to the rest of the engine here, but slightly less overall, with just a little less above, showing slightly more black above. 

I actually love the Selkirk front end & means all business to me. I think looks awesome on the later Hudson's with the PT tenders & Scullin disk drivers. Some NYC Berkshires also sported that front.

Great job!

Joe

Joe

Thanks for the input. I only have one before pic of each. I have a hudson and mohawk to do next.

Ray

Ray, it looks really good...you did a nice job!..but...there’s no rules....nor would I judge you. Its  what you like and makes you happy...and not what anybody else thinks....if you’re happy ....that’s all that matters .....Pat

I agree with Pat. If you're satisfied, that's all that counts. Like most of us, we're looking for guidance before we jump into the deep end, especially with an engine that costs over a thousand dollars! Maybe even more than that, acceptance or a pat on the back.

As I mentioned previously, weathering is subjective & everyone has there own opinion. Not all of us  wants a weathered engine, but if your layout has distressed or weathered buildings, vehicles or scenery, than some wear & tear on the engines & rolling stock is natural. One thing about trains, no two subjects should ever look exactly the same, if that is even possible when weathering.

Nature is the best teacher & many of us are trying to duplicate that on our layouts, unless of course you favor the classic toy train approach. Because it's your layout, if you are satisfied, that's the main thing like Pat said.

When I was 16 years old I weathered some HO Bachman & Life Like inexpensive rolling stock. I studied some articles on weathering models before I got started. I used my airbrush & was very happy with the finished result. I anxiously took them to my local hobby store & the comment from the shop owner was, these look like a talcum powder factory blew up all over them! I was devastated & never forgot. Until that moment, I thought they looked great running on my railroad. So much better than the out of the box, freshly painted versions. I study photos & nature more carefully now.

Even looking at the before photos, I can see that the engine isn't a stark night black & is actually slightly grey. I'm sure you have done your fair share of reading on painting models. Although not everyone agrees, scale models, trains, cars, even every day objects should be a scaled down version of there actual color. To make the details pop, since these objects are smaller than life, shading (with darker washes) & highlighting with dry brushing, helps bring them to life besides the weathering. There are tons of books & videos on the subject & I'm merely quoting what I have read & seen.

BTW Ray, I just looked closer at your layout photos with the Niagara & I think you should be offering advice based on what I see. I'd love to see more photos of the layout!

Keep up the good work!

Joe

Very good weathering job.  In fact, I think it’s what this model really needs.  To me the Niagara’s long boiler has such a spartan look to it.  The weathering brings out what detail is there, imo. 

Ray Marion posted:

Jack

   I still would like to see if you ever recover those photos. Any reference will help. 

Ray

    

Any of them posted here on the OGR Forum if you search old postings?