Finally Starting - New Layout, Wiring Diagram, Control Panel

Mike,

Let me be the first to welcome you to the New Layout Club!!  I am glad you are finally getting to start as well!  I followed your topic on the wiring problem.  That was a good idea to check how it would work for both DCS and conventional at one time.  

The new plan does look a bit more interesting.  One concern is access.  The original plan looks like you would have easy access to all parts of the layout.  The new one looks like you would want an access hole right where the yard is.  

What do you plan to do with the tracks at the door opening?  A lift out bridge or duck under.  I can see you made it better in the second plan so that only one track and no switches are over the opening.  

So on either plan it looks like you have an industry siding.  Do you plan to have more than one industry at the siding?  Another siding would be nice for a little more action.   Of course I know your favorite railroads, and you have them on the control panel.  Very nice design.

What engines do you plan to run, and do you have any long cars?  Do you have any preferred buildings that you want to include?

I guess that's enough questions for now.  I'll keep following your progress.

Thanks, Mark.

In response to the comment on your thread, I think I have the wiring problem figured out, but we will see once I'm actually up and running!

Access would somewhat be an issue.  I thought about making two removable cutouts inside each radius (blue and yellow circles), but I think what I could do is in the red triangle-like figure in the picture shown below.

I'm not too sure what I'm going to do at the door, I may make it a hatch-type opening, I'll work on that once I get to that part.

I'll probably only have one industrial-like area near the yard and single track on the right of the red triangle.  My plan for that track is actually a single stall engine house.  All other open areas I want to make a town.  My largest engine is a Railking Allegheny measuring about 27 inches with the tender included.  Then longest cars I will be using are the Husky Stacks which I believe are 17 inches (cant remember though).  

As far as the buildings.... I have Ethyl's Gas station and O'Grady's Tavern, BUT... I think I'm actually going to try and make all of my own.

mjrodg3n88 posted:

I posted that I was starting my 8x10 layout about 3 years ago... that never happened.

 

Hey, it happens! Delays that is. I have been planning an addition to mine for going on 2 years now. Still can't make up my mind.

I am not much of a track designer, but your plan 2 does look a little more interesting. My layout now is more like the first plan and it does get kind of old just going around in circles. Others here are good at track design and will be able to offer better suggestions like Mark has above.

What software did you use to draw your wiring diagram? That looks like a real nice drawing.

Good luck on the new layout!

Mike,

Access sounds good!  The Railking Allegheny should be fun to see running on the rails.  How could I forget the Husky Stacks?????  I'll keep watching.

rtr12 posted:

I am not much of a track designer, but your plan 2 does look a little more interesting. My layout now is more like the first plan and it does get kind of old just going around in circles. Others here are good at track design and will be able to offer better suggestions like Mark has above.

I know what you mean.  I was happy with the first one, but I kept going back to it thinking, this is going to be boring.  I'm much happier with the second one.

What software did you use to draw your wiring diagram? That looks like a real nice drawing.

I used AutoCAD to design the wiring diagram and control panel.  I'm a draftsman so I have access to 2D and 3D modeling software.

Mark Boyce posted:

Mike,

Access sounds good!  The Railking Allegheny should be fun to see running on the rails.  How could I forget the Husky Stacks?????  I'll keep watching.

I have a total of 9 husky stacks now... almost too many haha.

This past weekend I painted the room's ceiling black and started re-wiring the room.  All, but one outlet in the room will be controlled by one light switch.  This will enable me to make sure power is shut off every time I leave the room.

Next I'm debating on lights.  Recessed or track, I'm not too sure what I should do yet.  Also, I'm not sure if I should paint the walls any certain color since I'll be adding a backdrop (it will not go to the ceiling.)

Nine husky stacks!!  Well I knew you liked them a lot!!  They will define the height of your tunnel and any other overhead objects you may add.  They will probably define the width clearances as well!

Autocad is a good program for those things. I worked for a company years ago that used it, was still the MS-DOS version back then, before Windows was useable. They had a bunch of customized libraries and commands for their own use. Wiring schematics like this were very easy to do using the custom stuff they had. Unfortunately Autocad, even Lite or Sketch is too pricey for home use now that I am retired. Very nice drawings though!

mjrodg3n88 posted:

...

As far as the buildings.... I have Ethyl's Gas station and O'Grady's Tavern, BUT... I think I'm actually going to try and make all of my own.

If you're making your own, presumably you have control over the lighting.  That said, if starting from scratch I wonder if it's too bold to suggest making the leap to 12V DC accessory lighting bus - rather than old-school 14V AC and incandescent bulbs.  So much easier to work with DC if using LEDs.

Also, I see you have your switches under AIU control.  Curious if thought was given to putting Yard power and Uncouplers also under AIU control so that "everything" is controllable from the DCS remote.

rtr12 posted:

Autocad is a good program for those things. I worked for a company years ago that used it, was still the MS-DOS version back then, before Windows was useable. They had a bunch of customized libraries and commands for their own use. Wiring schematics like this were very easy to do using the custom stuff they had. Unfortunately Autocad, even Lite or Sketch is too pricey for home use now that I am retired. Very nice drawings though!

AutoCad does give some flexibility, but like you said costs a lot of money. I have AutoCad, because I'm a Structural Engineer and need it for business. Lately I have been playing with Eagle CAD, which is free for electronic PCB design. Maybe that would be a good solution for schematics for layouts, but I can't foresee using it for control panels. I would maybe suggest using SCRAM or even a free graphics program for this as an alternative. 

rtr12 posted:

Autocad is a good program for those things. I worked for a company years ago that used it, was still the MS-DOS version back then, before Windows was useable. They had a bunch of customized libraries and commands for their own use. Wiring schematics like this were very easy to do using the custom stuff they had. Unfortunately Autocad, even Lite or Sketch is too pricey for home use now that I am retired. Very nice drawings though!

Thank you!  I know its pricey, but to what extent, I'm not sure.  I've actually never seen the price.

stan2004 posted:

mjrodg3n88 posted:

As far as the buildings.... I have Ethyl's Gas station and O'Grady's Tavern, BUT... I think I'm actually going to try and make all of my own.

If you're making your own, presumably you have control over the lighting.  That said, if starting from scratch I wonder if it's too bold to suggest making the leap to 12V DC accessory lighting bus - rather than old-school 14V AC and incandescent bulbs.  So much easier to work with DC if using LEDs.

Also, I see you have your switches under AIU control.  Curious if thought was given to putting Yard power and Uncouplers also under AIU control so that "everything" is controllable from the DCS remote.

Stan,

I would prefer to do everything in LED and did not know that about DC.  What would I use for that then, an HO transformer?  If so, how many would I need?  

As far as using the DCS remote for the yard power and uncouplers... I only found out recently (by seeing a post on FB) that this can be done, however... I think relays or something are needed and that is way out of my league.  I understand electric to a point, but when getting into relays, capacitors, diodes, resistors, AC/DC, etc., I'm as confused as they come.  (I do know that houses are on 120V AC, sometimes 220V, and vehicles are 12V DC..... that type of stuff)

crood58 posted:

rtr12 posted:

Autocad is a good program for those things. I worked for a company years ago that used it, was still the MS-DOS version back then, before Windows was useable. They had a bunch of customized libraries and commands for their own use. Wiring schematics like this were very easy to do using the custom stuff they had. Unfortunately Autocad, even Lite or Sketch is too pricey for home use now that I am retired. Very nice drawings though!

AutoCad does give some flexibility, but like you said costs a lot of money. I have AutoCad, because I'm a Structural Engineer and need it for business. Lately I have been playing with Eagle CAD, which is free for electronic PCB design. Maybe that would be a good solution for schematics for layouts, but I can't foresee using it for control panels. I would maybe suggest using SCRAM or even a free graphics program for this as an alternative. 

Thanks, I might take a look at Eagle. I have been using Tinycad for wiring diagrams, but it is kind of clumsy to use unless you really learn it and make your own Libraries. Partly my fault too as in my old age I find that I just like to learn enough to get by. Of course it's been over 25 years since I used the custom Autocad stuff at work and now I probably would not know where to start wit that either. Thanks for the Eaglecad suggestion.

mjrodg3n88 posted:

rtr12 posted:

Autocad is a good program for those things. I worked for a company years ago that used it, was still the MS-DOS version back then, before Windows was useable. They had a bunch of customized libraries and commands for their own use. Wiring schematics like this were very easy to do using the custom stuff they had. Unfortunately Autocad, even Lite or Sketch is too pricey for home use now that I am retired. Very nice drawings though!

Thank you!  I know its pricey, but to what extent, I'm not sure.  I've actually never seen the price.

Back in the late '80s early '90s it was over $3,000 a copy depending on what you got with it. Those could have also been lower prices as my employer may have gotten a corporate discount because they had quite a few copies, I'm guessing well over a hundred throughout the company. I don't know what it costs now though? I imagine it's still enough that you could get 6 or 8 nice new PS3 or Legacy diesels or a few steamers for the same price. 

mjrodg3n88 posted:...

I would prefer to do everything in LED and did not know that about DC.  What would I use for that then, an HO transformer?  If so, how many would I need?  

As far as using the DCS remote for the yard power and uncouplers... I only found out recently (by seeing a post on FB) that this can be done, however... I think relays or something are needed and that is way out of my league.  I understand electric to a point, but when getting into relays, capacitors, diodes, resistors, AC/DC, etc., I'm as confused as they come.  (I do know that houses are on 120V AC, sometimes 220V, and vehicles are 12V DC..... that type of stuff)

 

If going with 12V DC as an accessory lighting voltage bus you could use a 12V DC wall-wart, 12V DC power supply adapter, 12V DC from a PC power supply, etc.  Hundreds if not thousands of choices.  Less than $10 and any of them would power hundreds of LEDs.

But if you're lacking time or aren't comfortable working at the component or module level, there are many suppliers of LED lights and lighting products which can directly connect to the 14V AC Accessory voltage from many train transformers...or to the AC voltage from your KW set to 14V AC (or whatever you choose).  These products have the diodes, resistors, etc. built-in to work so you don't have to mess with AC vs. DC, regulated vs. unregulated, Amps vs. mA, and similar jargon tossed about with LEDs and lighting.

As for using the DCS-AIU to control Yard power and/or Uncouplers, who would have thunk that you read about it first on FB rather than OGR!  There have been several OGR threads on how to do this and, yes, in some cases you need to add relays, in other cases you don't.  So to your point, it can be confusing! 

Everyone has their view-of-the-world but as I see it, the electronics used in O gauge depends on what is going on in other more mainstream applications (automotive, PC, communications, etc.).  So we pick up the scraps where we can...like 12V DC LED lighting strips.  It was a big-win to discover these could be adapted to O-gauge applications.  But as you have seen in your other thread, maybe not such a big-win for adapting 120V AC panel meters to O-gauge voltages!

I guess it comes down to what you want to do.  And, since you're in the planning stage with somewhat of a blank canvas, I figure now's the time to blue-sky the options. What you don't want is the "V8 moment" where after everything is built and wired, you realize you could have had a fill-in-the-blank....

stan2004 posted:

If going with 12V DC as an accessory lighting voltage bus you could use a 12V DC wall-wart, 12V DC power supply adapter, 12V DC from a PC power supply, etc.  Hundreds if not thousands of choices.  Less than $10 and any of them would power hundreds of LEDs.

Something like this Here ?  If so, how exactly do you hook it up and to what?  I guess I don't understand this aspect...yet.

But if you're lacking time or aren't comfortable working at the component or module level, there are many suppliers of LED lights and lighting products which can directly connect to the 14V AC Accessory voltage from many train transformers...or to the AC voltage from your KW set to 14V AC (or whatever you choose).  These products have the diodes, resistors, etc. built-in to work so you don't have to mess with AC vs. DC, regulated vs. unregulated, Amps vs. mA, and similar jargon tossed about with LEDs and lighting.

I've used Evan Designs so far, bought about 20 LEDs off of them for my control panel, this can get a little expensive though.  I'd like to learn how to do this stuff anyway.  Actually, GRJ has given some insight in the past.

I'm sure hooking up the switches and uncouplers to the AIU could be confusing, I never did search the forum to find out the info though, I think I may just do that now.

 

I definitely do not want to regret not doing something.  While I can easily buy the lighting from places such as Evan Designs and stay with the AC voltage, I feel like it may be more cost efficient to go the DC route?

On another note, I'm making some progress in the room that I will be using for the trains.  I removed the previously installed raceway electric (locations in blue rectangles) and installed in-wall mounted electric.  Also, this electric was on two different circuits before and is now on one controlled by a switch.  I felt like that would be beneficial to make sure when leaving, all train equipment is turned off.

I've also painted the ceiling black and installed 6 - 6 inch recessed lights using 65 watt bright white LED bulbs and removed the florescent fixture (still shown in the picture).  

In the corner of the room, someone had built a box (shown in the red circle) to hide what looks like old A/C lines.  I removed that box and patched up the wall.  Also, I opened the doorway the the train room up about 16 inches or so and removed the out of place pegboard.  Tonight I should be able to get two coats of primer on the walls to hide that awful yellow and my black over-spray.  With any luck at all, I should be able to start building my bench work later this week.

Any ideas on what color I should paint the walls?  In the future I am planning on using a backdrop the whole way around the room, but not all the way to the ceiling.

**Note: Please ignore the messy laundry room.  In the process of working on the train room, I also removed all of the orange pegboard and installed all new drywall there too.  (It must also be noted, we did not paint that pegboard orange... it was like that when we bought the house.)

Ahhh, the room exists and you changed the lighting. Good work!

Look at the first post photos here: new Layout progress 

I use Sherwin Williams Tibetan Sky,#7134. it's my eye's match of the horizon just above tree line on a perfectly clear sunny day.

The green that I chose is Sherwin Williams Generator Green #4070.

Use the primer from the same manufacturer of paint that you choose to use everywhere. Then, the colors.

I like an eggshell base. Doesn't hold dust as much and can be wiped with a damp sponge or cloth.

That's my 2¢.

You have been busy Mike and have made great improvements!  I wish I had a young man's energy again!  LOL

I agree with Carl to use a light blue.  I do not have a specific shade to suggest, so I will take a look at Carl's suggestions myself, since I hope to be doing the same by the end of winter.  Thank you Carl!

Thank you Carl and Mark.

Carl, question... your link sends me to Norm Charbonneau's layout.  Am I missing something?

mjrodg3n88 posted:

Thank you Carl and Mark.

Carl, question... your link sends me to Norm Charbonneau's layout.  Am I missing something?

No, not missing anything.

I wanted you to see the color effect of light blue sky and perhaps an industrial detail for the lower half of the wall. His is empty and a good example. I don't think that you need a second color, now that I have worked with the space. just a sky blue would work.

Question, is your room 8' x 10'? I grabbed your plan B (assuming that's what you are building and it was too wide. )

I recreated it and added 10" ground tracks to keep both outside rails common. Worked on some fitment for an 8' x 10' space.

Track fitting guide

Thank you, Carl.  Yes, the Plan B that I have setup is what I plan on using in the 8' x 10' room.  Actual dimensions are 100" x 117".  It was too wide?  So the ground tracks tie the outside rails together then?  I did not know that.  I could also solder them, correct (assuming thats what it does)?