no chuffing sound

It's not a reed switch, it's a microswitch, what Lionel calls the "Cherry switch".

It's down in the bottom of the frame with the lever riding on an axle cam.  My guess is it's the same wheelset you were pounding on, which would explain why it screwed up the chuff switch.

John ,i thought i could solve all my problems with a hammer ,i guess it doesn't always work,the cherry switch, is there an easy way for me to test it ? I just went down & took the shell off ,boy it looks like a big job to get to it to test or replace it ,i am going to have to go REAL SLOW with this project .

I think you're checking it, it's not chuffing and you hammered on the axle and then it quit.  Fixing it is probably another matter.  It seems obvious that this switch is likely the issue, but without actually seeing what happened to it, I can't really tell you how to fix it.

I looked at where the switch is & it looks like i would have to remove all the electronic boards to get to it ,& then i am not sure how to remove the switch itself ,if it isn't to big of a job for someone like me ,with little knowledge about these things to just replace the switch ,i would just go ahead & replace it,but i don't know if i am getting in over my head ,how hard would it be to just replace the switch ?

After pounding on the axle, I'm not entirely sure the actual switch is the issue.  You may have moved the cam on the axle.  That's why I said I'd have to see it to evaluate what is actually wrong.

OK  John ,I see what you are saying i think the best thing for me to do right now is leave it alone ,at least now everything works as it should ,if i start messing with it there's a good chance i will create more problems besides ,it isn't that important right now ,maybe in the future i may attempt to do something about it if i can get up enough nerve to try it .  Thanks anyway for your help.   Jerry

With shell off rotate motor an watch cam.  Does it rotate and does it press agains the cherry switch lever.  If so when lever pressed down measure continuity between the terminals with wires on them.  Make sure wires attached.   It should open and close as you rotate giving a short and an open between the wired terminals.  G

G ,I will try that in the morning ,& let you know what happens .

If you can manage to power up and touch the lever on the Cherry ( brand name) micro switch with a toothpick or similar safe non conducting item incase you spaz a liitle, the chuff should sound with every stroke if the switch is ok. The cam must be in a position to allow full actuator arm travel to do this.

If a switch breaks internally, banging can sometimes make its contacts appear to open or close ok, but not be ok.  Action is a sound test,...thats punny but correct.

It wont stop the need for disassembly, but narrows the diagnostics a bit letting you know how far in you may be diving and the best spot to begin.

If you can spot the cam and the switch was ok, you might attempt to slide it back a hair, lift the arm to get under it, and not bend it sideways.  Its likely not near as tight on the axle as a wheel was.

Good luck!

G ,I took the shell off & rotated the motor ,the cam rotates & touches the cherry switch ,i also powered it up & it also pushes on the cherry switch ,but no sound in either case ,as far as measuring continuity between the terminals ,it is to tight in there to get a reading on the terminals ,there is heat shrink covering the wires ,& one wire is to far in for me to even get a grip on it to pull it off & even if i got it off, i wouldn't be able to get it back on ,for me to chect the switch itself i would have to take all the boards off to have a clear view of everything ,i keep looking at this ,it seems that the more i look at it ,the more i feel i may be able to do this fix ,i wouldn't have any problem just replaceing the switch even if i couldn't be sure if it was the problem ,i just need to have enough confidence in myself to try it , i feel in the near future i will attempt this , i just have to study it some more before i attempt to fix it ,i have done other things around my house using the same approach ,study it a few times,then just do it ,if i do this fix i will post how it turned out . Thanks to all for your help.

Follow the wires to the mother board and test them at that point.  One should be chassis ground the other goes to chuff input on R2LC Pin 17

A way to test as ggg suggested is to find those wires from the switch on the board and (hopefully) unplug it, then test for continuity on the wires while activating the switch. No power needed.

No connection? Its the wire or the switch.

Did you feel a click on the switch when pressed? No is usually a bad sign.E ven the lightest switch you can normally feel the actuation.

Could the arm be bent out of adjustment? It normally rests on a small bump/tab protruding from thr body. That tab is the real actuator, the arm is a factory addition applied according to application. If the tab is recessed into the body the switch is likely shot.

On the board, find the two points on the board and with power on, (add ttest wire* if you need to) jump them together and apart  (or use another switch to do it.) You should get a chuff on each connect or break.(dont forget the volume) No sound? Its likely the board, but just maybe there is a speaker issue or volume pot issue to look at next.

* A short length of wire you can often pull out a few strands and with the extra room slide the wire over a pin. Sometimes theres room anyhow, sometimes the strands are wound to tight to even pull some out; it varies.

Two probes jumped together is great for doing this on solder points and tight areas.

A dressing of heat shrink or tape over all but the very tip of each probe may increase your confidence and/or prevent the oops that grabs us all on occasion.

G ,I did as you suggested the wires were easy to follow ,they were only a few inches away connected to a wire harness it was real easy to do ,i tried testing the switch either i am doing it wrong ,or the switch is no good ,one thing i wanted to mention is i've noticed that a couple of times whenever i changed directions ,sometimes it would chuff once & thats it i don't know if this tells you anything or not ,what i am going to do for now is just wait until i have to order  some parts & i will order the chery switch ,i still feel i may be able to change it ,& even if it's not the problem i may still learn something . Thanks for your help.

With engine on track in neutral press lever all the way down, does it chuff?  If not bad switch if solder joints and wire are good.  If it does chuff, may just need to bend the bracket so lever is full depressed when cam rotates on it (or smoke lever if one is used).  G

Gerald Marafioti posted:

i've noticed that a couple of times whenever i changed directions ,sometimes it would chuff once & thats it i don't know if this tells you anything or not.

The single chuff is actually generated internally by the RS board and not the chuff switch.  It's sort of a "prime the pump" thing, you can get the single chuff out of a locomotive with the switch totally disconnected.

OK  G, Did as you said no chuff ,the wires look solid from what i can see ,but i will know a lot more if & when i replace the switch ,with everything out of the way it will be a lot easier for me to work around in there , John explained why it would chuff just once so the only option left for me to do is replace the switch ,hopefully i don't screw anything else up i am looking forward to doing this project in the near future.

If I remember correctly, there are two screws that hold the smoke unit in place, they might be on the underside of the loco. Take a digital photo of each step of your work, that way if your memory fails you, you have something to fall back on. Just to discourage you, I had an Atlantic loco with the same problem, I replaced all of the boards, with known good ones, after replacing the cherry switch, and nothing I or a Lionel service station tried could get that loco to chuff. If you can get at the wires on the cherry switch, power up the loco with alligator clips, and take a wire and carefully jumper the two terminals on the cherry switch. If it chuffs, then you know where the problem is, and cherry switches are available at most electronics stores, and Radio Shack if you are fortunate enough to have one still open near you. If you are stuck for a cherry switch, I can get one at Moyer Electronics in Pottsville PA, they might be on the web if you would prefer to go that route. Let us know how you make out. 

Train Doctor,  I am confused at what you said about the smoke unit ,why would i want to take the smoke unit out ? the cherry switch is under the 2 electronic boards ,i don't know what they are called ,it looks to me like i would have to remove them so i can get to the cherry switch, & the other thing is ,I can get to the wire harness where the two wires are connected to the electronic board     & you say just take a piece of wire & touch the the two of them while they are  still all connected to the electronic board ?  as for where the wires are connected to the switch itself ,i can't tell if they are sodered on ,or just slip on so i wouldn't be able to get to them .

Plenty of us have Cherry switches in our parts boxes, but I still question if it's the physical switch.  From what was stated, the problem started when the work on the wheel/axle was done, that suggests the cam may have been pushed out of place.

Removal of the smoke unit may grant you better access is al I can think of. It could also be a mistaken id or  typo too.

But what you will do with docs idea is ensure wire continuity. The switch does this connection internally. But your wire, though it looks solid may have a break in it internally. This would also properly ensure its not the board.

And the cam isnt really out of the question either. Just knocked down a peg.

Without testing the board by simulating the switching action at the board and producing sound that way it could possibly still be the board. But I dont have a clue if switch runs a seperate transitor from the sound production GRJ mentions...John?

The other possible culprit is the IR sender is misaligned on the drawbar. The sender box should be at the same height as the tender receiver. If not bend either the engine or tender drawbar to re-align them. I am assuming this engine has a wireless drawbar. But if your whistle, rear coupler, etc are working, its not likely to be this issue.

Rod

Have to admit my thought train has been derailed. My Berk 6 28627 sound is all in the tender, what I thought was a cam is a hall effect or reed switch once I looked closely. (Bet thats why you heard reed switch somewhere, only 1 digit off long number wise, mine is C&O  2755) Somewhere I did start thinking the switch was is the engine, but forgot the speaker would still be in the tender which might not have a wired tether.

The basics of the troubleshooting still apply, but theres other things to consider now with a tether and Ive been up a long 22 hours and only slept 6-7 total since monday so Im likley stepping off for a day before I do make a real misttake

Never mind they only worked in the composer*

*Finally found something in Android that is cool, sorry to hijack but arent these cool? Theres tons more too! Chosen by accident, they didnt work before, g night.

Rod  Stewart ,On my engine there is no ir sender so that isn't an issue ,& as for the cam ,i have to admit i am not sure what the cam looks like so what i did was i looked up the parts list i had for my coal loader & it has 2 cams one on each end of the shaft ,i had in the past made a repair to the coal loader thats how i remembered about seeing what a cam even looked like,i am assuming thats the same thing that John suggested may have been knocked out of place ,so far i don't think i can even see where the cam is ,so unless i can see it there isn't much chance of knocking it back in place ,but i will take another look ,this is getting really interesting for me as i keep getting more suggestions,it seems that every time i put the shell back on ,another suggestion comes in & i have to take it off again ,so i am going to leave it off for awhile ,i am actually enjoying this it is giving me an opportunity to learn something ,time will tell.

Gerald; Most of the well-intentioned advice above is based on what others have experienced trouble with, mine included!  Since it sounds like you have a wired tender, the wire that triggers the chuff sound may be fatiqued and broken or a pin in the plug is bent, or something similar. The basic troubleshooting suggested above applies. Somewhere along the way the chuff trigger signal is not getting to the sound board. If you can trace the wire color code along from the switch and see where it hooks up in the tender, then manually activating the switch with the end of a small screwdriver will determine if the signal is getting through. It may be as simple as bending the small actuating spring lever on the switch ever so slightly, as shown in the switch picture posted earlier in the thread.

Rod

Save your sanity. Send the engine to a qualified repairman.

Rod Miller

Rod  Miller ,It isn't about my sanity ,if i sat around & did nothing that would drive me nuts altogether ,at least this gives me something to do & like i said before i may even learn something & besides it isn't that important whether or not there are chuff sounds i JUST ENJOY DOING THESE THINGS !!!!!!!

I hope you get it figuref out.

Rod Miller

Rod ,I hope so to,if I can ,then maybe i will be able to help someone else who is having a problem ,instead of me always being the one asking for help ,if i didn't try at all then i would never know if i was capable of doing it ,it will probably be at least a month before i do anything with it ,because next week starts the wine making season for me & my son ,that will keep us busy for awhile ,i do appreciate all the help i get here on the forum .   Jerry  M.

Troubleshooting is just like a puzzle , but you look for the missing piece instead.I enjoy it far more than design, but its a good 1st step towards that too. No telling whats in store for the future now

I suggest jumping the the board inputs asap. Though interesting, fun, and a confidence builder, comfirming the board will actually produce more than the one chuff could save some uneeded checking of things that seem to need deeper disassembly now. As noted by the ALCO issue above, you might havevstarted two issues, why bother with the switch until you know the board is at 100%, I think your at 80% with only a single chuff, unless someone truely famliar with that board says its ok. There could be a seperate part your switch triggers than the sound trigger from the RS board cue that John had mentioned. (Or I missed that)

(...says the guy that dissassembles things for fun sometimes, lol.)( Im looking at yours from more an "on the clock" POV)

FYI a reed switch or hall effect magnet looks very similar to a cam, but is a perfect circle vs wn egg shape, and magnetic were the trigger point is. There is usually a tiny board mounted 1/16 to 1/8" away. The magnegtic "cam" may be plastic with magnet, or a magnet itself. Tapping a magnet can change polarity or kill it or crack it off or slide it.

Adriatic ,Doing any testing to the board is beyond what i am capable of doing ,i have to keep it as simple as possible ,if i do change the switch & it still doesn't work ,if i feel i want to hear the chuff's bad enough ,then it's time to follow Rod Miller's advice & hand it over to a qualified repairman ,as i said before ,i don't mind changing the switch even if it's not the problem ,it will still be a learning experience for me ,besides everything else on the engine works just fine ,i have been able to do a few repairs with the great help from the forum  members but i usually know what is beyond what i am capable of doing ,but i do appreciate your advice.

Ok. I understand getting nervous poking around the board itself.

An approach you may be more comfy with is testing wire continuty , then jumping those two points at the switch, or even beginning at the switch then testing wire cont. if no sound is made from jumping off/on/off/on which is what the switch does when it works right on the cam, off/on/off/on. Leaving it jumped too long , not an issue. The cam could rest on a high or low point the same way, leaving it on or off for hours,no issue.

So yoh can produce the same basic test really without poking at the board itself.Jumping the two switch wires anywhere YOU choose should produce the same result when powered up. Even if you dont do it, if your understanding it thats great. You seem to really want to, I dont want to push you into the deep end if you just want your toes wet, but theres a shallow end too,...Im just pointing, no pushin'

Hi Gerry,

I commend you for trying to repair your engine's, it's great to learn and a good feeling of accomplishment when you do it. Just want you to know if you need me I'm 30 minutes away, I'll gladly repair it for you. Plus i most likely have to parts in stock already.

Thanks, Alex

Adriatic , Well i decided to give it another shot your response gave me more confidence to try ,i wasn't even sure what you meant  by jumping the two switch wires ,i had an idea so i went & tried anyway ,well it was chuffing just fine when i jumped the 2 wires ,in the photo the white harness has the only 2 wires that come directly from the switch & thats where i did the jump ,so if i understand what you said this tells me that the board is ok ,& the problem is either the switch or the cam ,am i correct with that assumption ?

Alex ,You are the only one that i know who lives close enough to me who i trust to do anything to any of my engines ,i wouldn 't even think of going to someone else ,if i can't repair it i will give you a call ,i will go as far as changing the switch ,& then if that doesn't work it's off to your house ,as i stated previously at my house we are about to start making some home made wine ,so i will be busy with that for a month or so,when we are all finished with the wine then it's back to the trains . Thanks for the offer ,hope all is well with you & your family.     Jerry

You have a good board!

Check the wires end to end for continuity once you can access them, check the switch, & cam, visit Alex, reassemble and chuff away. Looking close at the plug terminals on the wires iisnt a bad idea either. Over time the female teminals can widen , both can tarnish slightly and loose good connection. But I think you can do that stuff no issue. If you can reassemble it ok, I think youve beaten this.

Adriatic ,My next step is to remove the boards so i can get access to the switch & test the wires for continuity ,i have been studying the boards & i am confident i will be able to remove the boards & replace the switch ,if i run into any problems ,then i will bring it to Alex ,i will post the results of my efforts , i may not be doing this right away as there are other things going on in the work shop area ,i thank you for all your help .    Jerry

Quick update ,I received the cherry switch from lionel today & proceded to try & remove the boards ,well i got 3 harness's removed & i can't seem to get the largest one out i don't want to use to much force for fear of breaking something ,i can't seem to be able to get a good grip on the harness to remove it ,so i put everything back together & Rod Miller was right ,let the experts fix it ,i had a little time today so i thought i would give it a try ,but i don't think i should go any further ,when i have more time i will call Alex & see if he has the time to repair it ,at least i tried . Thanks to all for all of your advice .

I lost net access for a bit....likely was a tab lock on a plug, they work too well on occasion. Ive ran into some that had staying power enough to crack to board rather than let go; even with tab pressed those can feel glued. Rocking, prying, and patience, like a press fit gear is all you can do. Fuse and chip pullers help on occasion too, to achieve a straighter pull if it won't rock.

Get it going yet?

Adriatic ,I haven't done anymore with it ,i was going to bring it to Alex ,if i couldn't get the harness off ,but i have been busy lately ,plus my wife has a health issue that suddenly came up so the number one priority is taking care of her ,she is going for a bone marrow biopsy tomorrow  & we will see where that leads to, we have to wait for the results of that test to see what we are going to do next ,we are praying it is nothing serious ,if everything turns out ok ,then i may try one more time to get the harness off  if i can't then it's off to Alex's house ,but WIFE FIRST ,trains last ,thanks for checking back .    Jerry  M.

OK, I got up the nerve to try again & i didn't have to unplug the large harness as i had originally thought ,instead i pulled off the top board & unscrewed the bottom one ,moved some wires out of the way & i had access to the cherry switch ,well it looks like it is impossible to remove the 2 screws that hold the switch in place ,if you look at the photo the screwdriver is where the heads of the screws are, part of the loco's body that the wheels driver are attched to ,i think that is what it is called ,doesn't come off ,it is molded into the loco, i don't know how the h--- they ever were able to put those 2 screws in there ,unless that part is glued in place i sure can't tell, any ideas on what i can do to get the switch out ? i thought once i was able to get to the switch it would be easy to replace ,surprise ,surprise for me ,what next besides give up?