No Lionel Will Not be Doing Anything With DCS and Here's the Proof

I think it’s a shame that egos, corporate pride, and corporate greed have resulted in 3-rail operators being forced to use several different, unwieldy, and incompatible digital control systems. It’s a system of forced brand loyalty, and it is very short-sighted.

The HO scale manufacturers realized a long time ago that what was best for long term survival of everyone in the business was to adopt a standard digital control system (the NMRA Standard DCC System) across the board.

Sadly the die is now so firmly cast in three-rail that we’re stuck with systems that are loaded with silly gimmicks and far too many buttons on the controllers, but are very short on reliability, easy installation and basic functionality for just running trains.

@Rich Melvin posted:

I think it’s a shame…

Amen!

Not to mention those who are brand loyalists, and their short-sided take on other manufacturers and operating systems. A lot of negativity is out there and finds it’s way into way too many conversations, especially on this forum.

@Jeff78rr posted:

Not to mention those who are brand loyalists, and their short-sided take on other manufacturers and operating systems. A lot of negativity is out there and finds it’s way into way too many conversations, especially on this forum.

You said a mouthful there!…some of those cats are brainwashed beyond repair!..

Pat

I never thought there was a chance of Lionel doing anything with DCS, they have exactly zero incentive to do so.  AAMOF, it's probably negative incentive for them to even consider DCS.

While it would have been great to have a single command system across the board in O-gauge, I've learned to live with reality.  The poor souls that rail against reality are just fooling themselves and working on an early ulcer.  It simply ain't gonna' happen.

At least ProtoSound 3.0 was designed with both DCS/DCC capability. I operate my PS3 engines under DCC and get the same features, minus coil couplers, as I would with DCS.

Since I run both Lionel TMCC/Legacy and DCS, DCC is not an option here.

I fail to see the surprise in this.  Yet another reason why my future is mostly in DCC and 2 rail.

Why in the world did anyone think Lionel was going to do anything with DCS? Seriously?  Lionel has Legacy and it works quite well with their trains.  MTH has DCS and it works well with theirs.  I never thought for a moment that Lionel would do anything with DCS.  MTH and Mike Wolf still own it and it is exclusive to them and their licensees.

I heard the comment and personally thought it was uncalled for and petty.  As far as control systems I am predominately Legacy but have DCS and use it and enjoy how it operates my DCS trains.  I think the 2 camps are silly.  We should be one camp who enjoy different control systems or both.  Our hobby is too small to be like this.

Let's be clear here, MTH has also made comments in the past about Legacy and TMCC so it's not all one sided which is a shame that these 2 companies even have to stoop that low.  As far as either one moving to a DCC standard that ship has sailed for anything made previously from Lionel.  Maybe in the future.  Flyers seem to be DCC capable.  Yes MTH did include this in PS3.

The last few days on this forum have been an embarrassment with the way some of these threads are going. The 2 camps nitpicking and making sly trolling comments.  Wow maybe Ryan is the least of the offenders.  This board was like this years ago and it seemed to have settled down for a long time but it seems like we have some new folks that want to make snide remarks just so they can bait people and boy do they take it.  Too bad.  Like I said we are too small of a hobby to bicker about how we enjoy running our trains.  Jeez be happy we still have O Gauge.

@MartyE posted:

Like I said we are too small of a hobby to bicker about how we enjoy running our trains.  Jeez be happy we still have O Gauge.

I second that suggestion!  I use both systems, and they both seem to work fine for me.  If I wanted to start complaining about them, I could find nits to pick for either control system.

I dunno what all the hub bub is all about.

I just pull the lever to make 'em go

@TheRambles posted:

Occasionally and especially recently with the purchase of MTH Tooling, I will come across posts hoping Lionel will integrate DCS into their locomotives.

For those of you with that dream, I am here to burst your bubble. At 47:57 in the latest Ryan and Dave show, Ryan Kunkle Director of Production at Lionel bragged about bringing 3 different control systems to the Rail King Genesis rather than the one "dying control system".

This not so veiled attack on DCS from a prominent higher-up at Lionel makes clear the company wants nothing to do with DCS – and likely never did. I have seen similar jabs in the past particularly with the star wiring required to operate DCS.

MTH did so much for this hobby, I wish Lionel officials had some more hubris. I don't know whether this is some machismo rivalry thing, but to me the comments are pompous and unnecessary.

If Lionel really wanted to kill DCS, Legacy would have been the operating system in Atlas for years. But something tells me Lionel didn't want that either. For me, I plan on continuing my use of DCS, and I raise my cup to cheer on its new life as its own company. What do you think?

S.T.,

You seem to be enjoying raining on someone's parade.  I say this because your posting contains a huge dose of drama.  However, I'm not sure that either side in this "war" is actually a party to it.

Owning a number of products from both manufacturers, and loving them, and being mostly satisfied with both DCS and TMCC/Legacy I have no vested interest in either side "winning".

From my vantage point then it looks a lot less dramatic.  I see simply benign tolerance, one for the other, being practiced on both sides.  With all due respect, are you sure that there's actually a real tussle underway and that it's worthy of the drama?

Mike

I'm like those who have already posted here, I can embrace any of the manufacturers and their products.  I started into command control with DCS, but later bought a refurbished TMCC base and controller from GunrunnerJohn even before I had a TMCC or Legacy engine.  Now I own one with TMCC, 2 with Legacy, and one to be upgraded to ERR.  I still like my DCS because I'm used to it and have about a dozen engines with PS2 or PS3, but TMCC/Legacy are nice too.  One thing nice about embracing both systems, If I'm invited to someone else's home or club, I can operated either system if they only have one.

I think this is long settled history and folks have made their choices to use one system, both or neither.  Nothing that happens in the next few years is likely to change this one iota.  Ryan was probably engaging in a little bit of humor, but with a nugget of truth.  DCS's future is less certain than it was when MTH was a full line, full speed ahead train company, so it's also a little marketing hype.  Hubris means excessive pride, so wishing Lionel to have more of this is probably not what was intended.  I think humility is the asked for quality and it's always in short supply in the world.

My take on Ryan's comment, having witnessed the train wars and control system conflicts of the last 20 years is this is pretty mild stuff and not to be taken too seriously.  Nothing Ryan or Lionel does or doesn't do is, in any case, going to affect the successful transition of DCS/PS3 to whatever is envisioned by the new company.  There is exactly zero chance Lionel would choose to install PS3 or PSx in its locos.  If MTH/DCS Is Us were to make their technology accessible to third parties, I'm sure Lionel would think about enabling TMCC/Legacy/LionChief to control PS3 and PS3 locos in command mode.  That hasn't happened in the first 20 years of DCS, but who knows. Stay calm and carry on.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

S.T.,

From my vantage point then it looks a lot less dramatic.  I see simply benign tolerance, one for the other, being practiced on both sides.  With all due respect, are you sure that there's actually a real tussle underway and that it's worthy of the drama?

Mike

hey Mike,

No animus here. I run both legacy and dcs and think there’s good and bad in both.

Did you watch the clip?

The point of this post was to call out behavior I thought was really ugly.

So a successful O gauge company with a successful and reliable remote operating system announcing that they will not be using another company's system.  Really a non-issue.

I like both Legacy and DCS and use them both.      Hope DCS remains available.   It's a lot of fun!

@Rich Melvin posted:

I think it’s a shame that egos, corporate pride, and corporate greed have resulted in 3-rail operators being forced to use several different, unwieldy, and incompatible digital control systems. It’s a system of forced brand loyalty, and it is very short-sighted.

The HO scale manufacturers realized a long time ago that what was best for long term survival of everyone in the business was to adopt a standard digital control system (the NMRA Standard DCC System) across the board.

Sadly the die is now so firmly cast in three-rail that we’re stuck with systems that are loaded with silly gimmicks and far too many buttons on the controllers, but are very short on reliability, easy installation and basic functionality for just running trains.

100% agree we'd all be ahead if 20+ years ago Lionel and MTH just adopted the DCC standard every other scale uses. But 3 rail has to be special.

Also people complaining about the cost of having both systems are being a bit silly. 10 years ago the cost to have both Legacy and DCS on a layout would be about $550, so the price of one locomotive. When someone with 100 locomotives and a large layout complained about the "cost" of the other system it was basically a brand loyalty argument.

Hate to see a company bash another like that. I start writing off sales guys as soon as they start bashing the competition.

I like open source. It's been good for smartphones, good for 3D printers, and I believe it would be good for model railroading.