Question about using block signals as switch indicators

Depending on the turnout switch it maybe can be thrown with capacitor discharge. Here is a diagram for Atlas but many others can be thrown in the same fashion, I am not familiar with all switches some have circuitry which will throw the block signal and are powered continuously.

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowT...=411&categoryId=

Using a 3 pull toggle or relay instead of a 2 pull, block signals could be powered also with an extra contact. This will work reliably if the switch does not stick or something.It does not verify actual position,only that power was sent to throw it.

General use of relays is shown here

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowT...=410&categoryId=

and here

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowT...=635&categoryId=

Dale H

Dale, I've been reading your posts that you linked to.  Thank you, I find your posts usually very helpful, I can follow the logic of your wiring diagrams.

So if I'm reading you right, what I need to do is supply 12V AC to the red/green block signals that are acting as switch indicator lights, but to supply that power to the signals through a SPDT relay.  The relay activating circuit will be connected to the momentary toggle on the control panel that activates the turnout.  The momentary DC power to throw the turnout will also throw the relay and change which bulb (red/green) the AC power goes to.

If I have this right, then it seems that the Z stuff DZ1008 relay, although it is made to plug in to the DZ1000 switch motor, will also work quite well for this application, using wire leads instead of the plug-in feature.  The blurb for the DZ1008 relay says it is a SPDT relay with 10A capacity, and designed to do pretty much what I want to do here, if I'm reading it right.

Or do I need a DPDT relay to switch from red to green?

Am I on the right track?

You should be able to do it with a toggle switch or the DZ items mentioned. 

There are 2 kinds of turnout switches.

1 kind power is on them continually. An EOS (end of stroke switch) cuts power to the coils when the turnout is thrown. A DZ1008 does this for example. Some Lionel switches have this also. This keeps them from burning out. Many coils can not take continuous power. This type would require 1 set of contacts to throw (SPDT)

Another kind,Atlas for example has no such circuitry. These can be thrown with 2 sets of contacts using capacitor discharge as linked before.

On each of the above add 1 set of contacts to work a block signal.

So either a DPDT or 3PDT toggle is required depending on the turnout.

On large layouts with complicated wiring you could use a light duty SP toggle and a DPDT or 3PDT relay. Shown in the second link. This option simplifies wiring in and out of a control panel but you do not have to use a relay. With further contact sets you could select which block is powered. For throwing many different circuits relays make it easier than getting large multi contacts toggles.

All depends on your needs. For a simple layout,just use toggles.

Dale H 

Thanks Dale, once again, helpful explanations.  When I get the time, I'll try one of these relays on the Ross switch and see what I come up with.  It's hard for me to understand it in the abstract, but once I have the wiring opened up in front of me and I've got your diagrams to follow I think it will come together.

I think you might be able to use the relay from Atlas.  It is wired to the switch, so when you throw the switch it also will operate the relay and display the proper color of the signal.  the signal is connected to the relay.  I use them with my Atlas switches because the Atlas switch machine does not provide the ability to light a signal.  All my signals are the older #153 type with newer LED bulbs, they work great...

Marty

Marty, thank you, those look like exactly what I'm looking for.

I have a related question, now that hojack's original question appears to be answered.

I've got FasTrack switches.  I would think that I could directly hook up a Lionel block signal, with its red, green, black wires, directly to the red, green, and black (or white/yellow) terminals under the switch where the remote controller hooks in.  (I'm powering my switches separately.)  It doesn't work.  Do I really need relays, etc. to have the block signal mirror the setting of the switch?

   Bob A.

Bob, can you notice your block signal momentarily flash green or red as the switch is thrown?  If so, you've got the same issue I have with the Ross switches.  Power to throw the switch is only momentary. After that, there is no constant power to those switch terminals to feed a block signal.  What we need is a set of contacts to be thrown along with the switch, which will stay closed in the new position after the momentary pulse is gone, to maintain constant power to the light.

The wires going to the fastrack switches are just logic levels, they're not like old PW switches.  There is an indicator line that changes polarity according to the switch position, it's the yellow wire to the switch controller.  I'm guessing that's not what you expected.

A logic level relay with a diode would probably work on the yellow wire, however I'm not sure what the power capability of that output is.

Marty, the Atlas relay does not work for the same reason that the Z Stuff DZ1008 relay does not work.  They are both made with AC coil circuits.

I've drawn schematics to myself and here's what I've come up with.  Let me talk this through out loud and see if it makes sense.

The LGB switch machine on the Ross switch is DC powered.  The control panel toggle switch provided with the Ross switch is a DPDT momentary switch, to reverse the polarity of the DC going to the track switch.  There are 2 wires coming from the toggle to the track switch:  + and - DC, and when you flip the toggle they reverse, - and +.

So I need a relay with a 12V DC coil circuit.

These two wires going from the control panel toggle to the Ross LGB switch machine would be what I would tap into,  to feed the relay 12V DC coil side input.  Two terminals, two input wires, 12 V DC input to the relay coil.

The other side of the relay, the contact circuit, I believe needs to be 12 V AC, 5 to 10 amps would be plenty sufficient.  (AC because that's what all the lights on the layout are, easy to tap into the accessory bus.)   As I see it, we only need three terminals on this side.  There will be a common terminal, and the two terminals powered alternately as the relay throws.  One of the terminals goes to the green light on the block signal, the other terminal on the relay goes to the red light.  The common terminal on the AC contact side of the relay is your AC 12V power in; it will alternate to the red or green as the relay is thrown.  That makes three terminals on the contact side of the relay; the common and the two alternating terminals. That's a SPDT, right?   Single pole double throw should do it.

The black (common) wire from the block signal goes to AC 12V ground to complete the AC light circuit.

I don't see the need for a DPDT or 3PDT.  What am I missing?

What's a good source for a SPDT relay that is 12 V DC coil, 12V AC 10amp contact circuit?

I have successfully wired my 153 block signals to switch on my Fastrack command control switches.  Yes you will need a relay.  If interested let me know.  It is very inexpensive.