Questions on S Scale

Well, I own a Flyonel Big Boy. And yes, when it was a K-Line economy O-Gauge model for those who wanted to own a Big Boy in the worst way, it was the worst way to own a Big Boy. No valve gear, an other glaring omissions made me think this is how Marx would do it. I know Marx has it's place but this one was spartan. 

  Lionel dressed it up as an S-Gauge model enough that I will say I am still glad I own it. Even over-sized as it is. It's a good looking beastie, and yes, I wouldn't pose it next to my Challenger, but it will always have a home in my collection. If Lionel or MTH brings out a proper one, I would buy that as well. 

The OP presents an interesting premise. Sell out and switch scales. MY LHS techie told me once in a discussion of just that  in comparing 3 rail O to S that while, yes - S is smaller, the turning radii are not all that much different.

True or not true?

S is smaller, but the models, even in the Gilbert Flyer days, were not condensed as the PW Lionel GG1, most steamers smaller than the 700e et al. So due to the scale lengths, the radii are about the same.

American Flyer radius is 20 inches, what is the radius of Lionel 3 rail? that is what needs to be compared, not Lionel 3 rail to S scale. How about Lionel 3 rail to O scale. Do they all operate on the same radius? it's not the radius as much as the design of the model. this argument has been around forever and it all depends on how eyes are looking at it. American Flyer fans wit tell you they have real scale trains. Yeah, they have two rail AC power and the Lionel has 3 rail AC power.

Rusty

Traditionally, Lionel track is measured in diameter, not radius.  O27 track has a diameter of 27" outer rail to outer rail.  O31 is 31" outer rail to outer rail.  That makes the radii approximately 13" and 15" respectively.   Traditional Flyer track is 40" (give or take) outer rail to outer rail.

So, in reality in olden days, one could build a Lionel layout in less space than a Flyer layout.

I think nowadays the O Gauge gang still use diameters for the newer, larger curves, but measured from the center rail.

The other Rusty

Wow, slightly larger radius and scale length equipment. What 3 railer reading this can still honestly say he shouldn't convert?  

>> comparing 3 rail O to S that while, yes - S is smaller, the turning radii are not all that much different. 

True or not true?

If building a layout is in your future, the radius of the track is of minor consequence compared to the size of structures.  Compare the actual square footage needed for a large passenger station between O and S.  Most O layouts cannot accommodate a properly-sized large structure -- like a roundhouse with more than two or three stalls.  With S, many large structures can be fitted into the available space much easier. 

In addition, the appearance of two-rail track beats the 3-rail stuff hands down.  And, the similarity of track radius does not address the issue of realism.  An S train on 20" radius curves looks a heckuva lot more realistic than an O train on 16" radius curves. 

If minimum radius is your goal, perhaps HO trains would be a better choice.  N scale goes down to 9" radii.  Food for thought....

Just contemplating.......Ed L.

One thing I must say is SHS rail was NEVER advertised as code 125.  That was spec and fud.  It was advertised as 155# Pennsy rail, and it is.

Pennsy and SP did some 6.5" rail that was tall and thin.  Most 155# rail was is only 6" tall so it is code 125.  The 6.5" rail is taller.  See the confusion?

SHS and now MTH rail is spossed to be code 131 -0 +6, most is closer to code 133 or 137.

It is interesting to revisit this thread after two years. Unfortunately not a lot has changed. Lionel seems reluctant to invest in new tooling at this time and MTH is just starting to deliver SHS remakes. I still hold out hope that things will pick up by the time I'm ready to start construction of the next layout. Just in case I went ahead and purchased a Flyonel Mikado and Pacific. I will be gutting them and installing TCS WowSound DCC decoders soon. If anyone wants the electronics let me know and I'll make you a good deal

Interesting side note- The Pacific will run on Tomalco code 100 flex while barely bumping at all. The Mike is another story. If you look at the flanges they are totally different which surprised me. Obviously they aren't designed for code 100, but I thought the Pacific did quite well.

I would agree.  As one who constantly preaches "patience," even I'm disappointed in the pace of the S reboot.

As I see it, two things sucked the oxygen out of the American Flyer balloon:

1) The Norfolk Southern Heritage locomotives.  Lionel decided to strike while the iron was hot and I'm not sure how hot it was in S in the first place.  I'm sure we would have seen 57' reefers in NS fantasy paint if the NS series was hot.

Obviously, the two remaining UP Heritage locomotives suffered because of this.  Plus, contemporary isn't a strong suit in S, at least not yet.

2) The Vision Line Big Boy in O.  That seems to be Lionel's main thrust right now.

Even the Polar Express and Berkshire sets got pushed back another year.  By the time these come out, they too may miss the mark.  Buzz only lasts so long.

As far as MTH goes, I like what I see, but I don't see a lot.  The freight cars are nice, but still no F's.  At least the track is finally showing up.  Even the next catalog got pushed back. 

I know there's still a lot of old SHS to be rereleased, but it might behoove MTH to announce at least one new freight car not derived from SHS tooling to create a little excitement.

Oh, well.  At least I can maybe get caught up a little on my "round tuit" project backlog.

Rusty

I hear you Rusty. I'm enjoying my model railroading by doing my electronics projects, track planning, and structure building/weathering right now. Not my favorite which is scenery, but it all needs done and until I finish my basement and start building the layout it doesn't matter anyways.

Unfortunately everyone I have spoken with at MTH said they plan on doing reissues first. IF those go well then we may see new tooling. I hope that isn't true because that could be years from now at this pace. I have always disliked the "you better buy what we give you or we won't make anything new" approach, but it seems to be the way things are going.

As far a Lionel is concerned I believe Jon Z. has been able to shrink the size of the electronics to a size sufficient to allow smaller models to be made. That's fantastic news! Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like Lionel is interested in new tooling these days. Especially in S. In my opinion, they way over estimated the S market and I agree with you on the Heritage units. It boggles my mind that they have still yet to deliver a turnout in their track system. How can you expect to win new modelers if they don't have a track system to run on? The last catalog shows how much they have pulled back their investment in S. I caught a lot of flack when I mentioned that a while back, but I think it is pretty evident now.

I still hope the best days are in the future. S is so close to being the perfect scale. O scale junior or HO Grande. My current frustration is around track. Things on the Hi-rail side are a bit worse now then they were 2 or 3 yrs. ago. Tom isn't able to make turnout's right now, and Lionel and MTH haven't delivered turnouts. Even when they do they are only 20"r. That leaves AM as the only viable source. Carl T. has a very nice layout using that system, but it isn't my favorite and I'm still looking for an alternative. I guess I'm glad I'm not ready to build because I don't know what I would do if I had to start today. Perhaps hand-lay code 125 or 138 turnouts for use with MTH/SHS flex?

I hope things pick back up. There are so many products to be made. The playing field is wide open. I still believe that if they build it the people will come. I'm hanging on by a thread myself. I'm actually playing with On30 right now to pass the time.