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Hello,

I have been searching both the internet and this forum to determine what relay I would need to control track power on/off with an AIU.  I don't want to use the AIU directly because I seem to have a knack for blowing them out.   I don't fully understand relay speak so if someone could spell out exactly what I'm looking for it would be appreciated.

I want to be able to turn power on/off to sidings, roundhouse whisker tracks and yard tracks.  I understand that under DCS once you power a track you have to shut down/restart DCS engines, no problem with that.

Any help is much needed, thanks.

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Cheryl,

The below diagram is a bit hard to read, so I've also added the PowerPoint file if you can use it.  This was a modification to my TMCC setup I did a while back to see how DCS would work with relays.  Should be correct but I never set up it up.

To answer your question, I used 20/30amp Bosch style 12 volt SPDT relays from eBay powered by a separate 12 volt transformer.  Note:  Under AIU is should say "1 to Relay input 86", not 85.

TIU-AIU-RELAY-TRACK POWER

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Last edited by CAPPilot
Charly posted:

Thanks for the info.  Question:  Do the relays always have an outside/aux power source?

They need coil power, so there has to be a power source.  If you select AC relays of the correct rating, you can run them from track power.  The power source seems to be such a simple issue that I didn't think it would be a problem.

Matt Makens posted:

Will passing the power through a relay have any negative effect of the DCS signal?

No more than passing it through a switch.

I recommend you sketch out a rough "to-scale" drawing of you layout showing the dimensions involved.   The "beauty" of relays is it allows you to use low-current signals to control (switch) high-current signals.  Not mentioned yet is the ability to then use thin/cheaper wiring for the control signals to activate the relays as opposed to running long lengths of thick/expensive wiring that carry the track-power. 

While you could "steal" track-power to provide the control current to activate the various relays, as GRJ says I'd go with a $2 external DC power supply (wall-wart).  This leaves max available track power from your transformers to drive your trains.

As GRJ shows, you can buy multi-relay modules from eBay for about $1 per relay.  These come in 1,2,4,8,16 relays per board for roughly $1 per relay.  This variety allows you to choose sizes that match the application to minimize the amount of high-current wiring.  For example, for roundhouse whiskers you could use a multi-channel relay module.  For a lone siding sitting out in the middle of nowhere you could use a single-channel relay module.  If using an AIU, this constrains your control signals to be centralized in increments of 10 (i.e., 10 accessory relays per AIU).  So, again, if you sketch out your layout the idea is to minimize the amount of high-current wiring relative to low-current wiring.  A related benefit goes to Matt's point of minimizing the length of track voltage wiring and any "negative effects" of running more wiring than needed as the track voltage wiring carries the DCS signal (while the low-voltage DC control signals do not).

s-l1600

Also, if you go with the eBay relay modules, most have so-called square-pin header connectors.  There are adapter cables/connectors which make it easier to work with these.  So if you go this route we can recommend how to attach to these connectors.

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Last edited by stan2004

SNRR Track Only

Here is the track plan.  The whisker tracks, the two sidings next to them, and the 3 ladder tracks are my primary goal.  These tracks all have engines sitting on them.  The rest of the sidings are possible future candidates.

I ask the questions only because I do not know and am curious.  Hope that's not a problem. 

Stan... glad you joined the discussion.  You were helping me at one time with a Lionel Itad, that I have since put aside as other matters became more important.  Someday I may come back to that, lol.

Thanks again guys for answering questions with enduring patience

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This is a classic case of measure-twice, cut-once.  That is, if you sketch out your relay wiring ahead of time you can skip the wiring clutter that is the inevitable consequence of an ad hoc wiring-as-you-go approach.  Here's a crude sketch illustrating a few ideas to consider (pic should be click-able to expand):

aiu relay module wiring

This uses the eBay ~$1-per-relay modules that GRJ identified and an external ~$2 DC wall-wart.  Each relay module, whether it be 1,2,4,8,etc. relays always receives DC power direct from the wall-wart.  This wiring carries a "medium" amount of current so something like #22 or #24 wire is fine.  Each module will have DC+ and DC- inputs for this power.  DC+ may be labeled VCC, and DC- may be labeled GND.

For every relay, there will be a control or trigger signal on the module.  So a 4 channel relay will have 4 control inputs typically labeled IN1...IN4 or CTRL1...CTRL4.  These signals come from the AIU. 

Let's just say we have 8 relays to control broken up into a 1-relay module, and 2 4-relay modules.  1 relay on the 2nd 4-relay module is unused and can be used later if you, say, add a new controlled siding.

Let's say we assign the 8 relays to ACC1 to ACC8 on the AIU.  When you select one of the Accessory outputs on the DCS Remote handheld and press the "ON" softkey, the AIU will send the control signal to the corresponding relay module which activates the physical relay.  These control signals (blue lines in pic) carry very little current so can be something like #28 wire.  #28 wire is the typical gauge used on those multi-conductor ribbon cables used in computers that you can often get really cheap surplus.  The relay under control then switches power to the controlled siding/whisker/spur.  By placing the relay physically close to the controlled track section this minimizes the length of high-current track-power wiring which is always a good thing.  Your track wiring is probably something like #14 or #16.

It sounds like you can control all your relays with a single AIU...but note that there is the question of where to physically locate the AIU.  You probably are using just the short 1 foot modular-plug phone cable between the TIU and AIU.  But in sketching out the wiring plan, you can imagine a scenario where maybe it would be easier/neater to physically locate the AIU further from the TIU using a longer modular phone cable.  Hard to say but this is part and parcel of doing the right thing before doing things right.

Another thought is whether you want some kind of visual feedback of the various relay positions.  The eBay relay modules have individual LED indicators showing if the relay is ON (a 4 channel relay module will have 4 LEDs).  Obviously these are on the board itself so if the board is attached under ground then it not as useful.  As you know (or may be doing right now) most layouts with a control panel with toggle switches to control block power have lights next to each toggle switch to indicate block is ON.  So if you want some kind of centralized panel with similar status indication, draw those connection into the diagram too.

Hopefully this is enough to move the ball forward a bit.

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gunrunnerjohn posted:

If  you want cheap relay modules that will handle 10A track power, look no farther than eBay.

eBay 262472832393 is an 8-channel 10A relay module for $4.97 shipped free.  You need a $2 5V power brick and a little wire, and you can control up to eight power districts from the AIU with no risk to your AIU.

Question to GRJ, I see you show a 5V relay module and 5V DC brick.  Why 5V instead of 12V?  There's no correct answer but I was thinking about other control modules that might apply to the layout (e.g., timers) for which 12V seems more common.  Yes, if a bunch of Arduino modules were hanging out 5V might make sense but I don't think that's in the immediate picture.

OK, great info.  I do have some DC wall worts with nothing to do, I'll have to check them for their power ratings.  I'm thinking of one in particular, an ex motorola phone charger.  I tried to use it to power a TIU for programming and it didn't quite cut the mustard.  Would it work for this type of thing?

Also, while snooping on the auction site I found this one and wondered what the 240V is referring to?

 

Last edited by Charly
Charly posted:

OK, great info.  I do have some DC wall worts with nothing to do, I'll have to check them for their power ratings.  I'm thinking of one in particular, an ex motorola phone charger.  I tried to use it to power a TIU for programming and it didn't quite cut the mustard.  Would it work for this type of thing?

Also, while snooping on the auction site I found this one and wondered what the 240V is referring to?

 

If you ordered the relay modules GRJ suggested you need a source of 5V DC.   If you have a wall-wart meant to power a USB hub or some similar computer/PC type device you may have such a widget.  As you say you need to check the power ratings to see if it can support driving (up to) 8 relays plus attendant circuitry (like the on-board LEDs and such).  The label on the wall wart should tell you the DC voltage and current capability.  I'd look for one with current of, say, 1 Amp = 1000 mA.   While you can buy a $1 eBay module that converts one DC voltage to another, GRJ points out you can get a 5V wall-wart for $2 so I'd just do that if you don't have a wall wart that directly puts out 5V DC.

The 240V in your linked item refers to how many volts the relays can switch.  You only need to switch 20V (whatever your track voltage) so that product is more than capable of handling the voltage.

An alternate approach to using relays for block control:

My DCS system wiring:

To avoid any problems with the TIU signal to each track (block) the TIU is wired in "Passive Mode".  As a result the track voltage is provided by my Z-4000 transformer entirely bypassing the TIU. (No input connections to the TIU are required).

My system applies track voltage using separate 12vdc relays which are operated via my AIU system. Wiring to the track is protected by separate circuit breakers and TVS DIODES (Transient Voltage Suppressors) for EACH block circuit output connection. As a result a short circuit in any block connection is individually protected so that a loss of power to the other blocks is not affected.  Wiring to each block uses 16 gauge wire.

DCS signal wiring:  All wiring from the TIU to each block uses 22 gauge wire.  Each connection from the TIU output bypasses the block relay circuit entirely and is permanently wired to the center rail.  Also wiring to each block from the TIU uses a series connected 560 ohm isolating resistor. In addition the TIU OUTPUT is protected using a TVS diode.

Note: The maximum current in the wiring from the TIU to the track is 40 miiliamperes so no fuses are necessary to protect the TIU when using  the TIU Passive control wiring scheme.

The circuit breaker panel shown includes an individual resettable circuit breaker and a TVS Diode for each block circuit output.

BLOCK CIRCUIT BREAKER BOX 004

 

 

 

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Last edited by pro hobby

The Altronix RB610 appears to have screw-terminals for the control inputs whereas the eBay module uses square-pins that can be a nuisance to deal with.  Of course at $4-5 per relay (vs. about $1 per eBay relay) you can buy a lot of screw-terminal blocks or other wiring accessories with the money you "save" on the relay cost. 

What's also curious is you can order the RB610 from Office Depot of all places!

Actually, the one I ordered is this, and I got two, which just covers the 15 possible sections of track I wish to power off/on.

 

Brand new and high quality

This relay module is 5V active low.

It is an 8-channel relay interface board, which can be controlled directly by a wide range of microcontrollers such as Arduino, AVR, PIC, ARM, PLC, etc.

It is also able to control various appliances and other equipments with large current.

Relay output maximum contact is AC250V 10A and DC30V 10A.

Standard interface can be directly connected with microcontrollers.

Red working status indicator lights are conducive to the safe use.

Widely used for all MCU control, industrial sector, PLC control, smart home control.

 

 

Specifications:

Working voltage: 5V

Channel: 8 channel

Item size: 13.5x5.5x1.6cm

Weight: 109g

 

 

Package includes:

1 x 8 Channel Relay Module

I think what GRJ is referring to by cable assembly, and what I also recommend would be something like the following.

10p header cable

That 8-relay module appears to have a 10-pin header with pins spaced 2.54mm (0.1").  So, for example, one of the above cables could be cut in half and wires stripped.  The connector side obviously just plugs right on to the relay module header.  The stripped wires could then be plugged into a terminal strip/barrier to "convert" the flying wires to screw-terminals. 

screw terminal strip ebay cheap

Agreed that's an extra step or two but no soldering and should save some $ when all's said and done...

P.S. The cable shown has a 10-pin header, but these come in different sizes.  For example, a 4-channel relay module probably has a 6-pin header so a less-expensive 6-pin cable could be used and cut-in-half to wire up two 4-channel modules.

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Last edited by stan2004

I wonder how many shorts a relay can break compared to a toggle switch of equal capacity????  One problem with using a relay module is that if one relay fails, the entire set may have to be replaced.

Charly, some months ago, in threads regarding LED lighting, GRJ and I made mention of AC/DC buck converters, 1-24VAC in, adjustable DC out, real cheap, maybe $3???  They can be adjusted down to 5 volts.  I use them for powering relays, set to 12VDC output to match my relays, and set to 4.5 volts for powering Menards-lit buildings.

RJR posted:

I wonder how many shorts a relay can break compared to a toggle switch of equal capacity????  One problem with using a relay module is that if one relay fails, the entire set may have to be replaced.

Charly, some months ago, in threads regarding LED lighting, GRJ and I made mention of AC/DC buck converters, 1-24VAC in, adjustable DC out, real cheap, maybe $3???  They can be adjusted down to 5 volts.  I use them for powering relays, set to 12VDC output to match my relays, and set to 4.5 volts for powering Menards-lit buildings.

Hmmmmmmmmm.  I understand your comment, but am rather committed at this point.  My BF has about a dozen 12volt dc power supplies he acquired from somewhere, who only knows, and has given me 3 for my lights, so I'm good there.  I just want to shut off sidings, stubs and round house whiskers until I'm ready to power up something on those tracks.  Occasionally I have a derailment short that sets everybody off and with 30 or more engines on live track it can be a pretty intense few seconds .

gunrunnerjohn posted:

DC 5V 2A/2000mah AC Power Adapter Wall Charger

eBay: 171854362635, $2.78 with free shipping.

 

 

I finally did find one very similar to this and I was able to get two for under $4.00 dollars.  But thank you for responding, it's great to know you guys are willing to help out a newbie like me

Was just reviewing this thread and noticed the relay module you purchased is "active low".  This means to activate a particular relay, you must apply a "low" or the "-" voltage to the IN pin. 

relay active hi or lo

Some relay modules are "active high" which is what I assumed you had when I previously drew the hookup diagram.  No problem - here's a revised diagram. You attach either "+" or "-" from the DC wall-wart to the daisy-chained AIU input.  Since your relay module is "active low", you attach to "-".

aiu%20relay%20module%20wiring

 

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  • aiu%20relay%20module%20wiring
Charly posted:

Actually, the one I ordered is this, and I got two, which just covers the 15 possible sections of track I wish to power off/on.

 

Brand new and high quality

This relay module is 5V active low.

It is an 8-channel relay interface board, which can be controlled directly by a wide range of microcontrollers such as Arduino, AVR, PIC, ARM, PLC, etc.

It is also able to control various appliances and other equipments with large current.

Relay output maximum contact is AC250V 10A and DC30V 10A.

Standard interface can be directly connected with microcontrollers.

Red working status indicator lights are conducive to the safe use.

Widely used for all MCU control, industrial sector, PLC control, smart home control.

One more question... 

I have power supplies, header cables and the units.  What I'm wondering is what the little yellow jumper is for and do I need to tie both those pins to hot when I wire up the power supply?

Thanks

Charly posted:
 

I have power supplies, header cables and the units.  What I'm wondering is what the little yellow jumper is for and do I need to tie both those pins to hot when I wire up the power supply?

The yellow jumper allows you to connect/separate the relay power supply from the control signal power supply.  In your application you want the two supplies to be the same.  Hence, leave the jumper in place.  Your board will get its "hot" 5V DC power from the main header connector on the pin labeled "VCC" which is the rightmost pin in the photo.

stan2004 posted:
Charly posted:
 

I have power supplies, header cables and the units.  What I'm wondering is what the little yellow jumper is for and do I need to tie both those pins to hot when I wire up the power supply?

The yellow jumper allows you to connect/separate the relay power supply from the control signal power supply.  In your application you want the two supplies to be the same.  Hence, leave the jumper in place.  Your board will get its "hot" 5V DC power from the main header connector on the pin labeled "VCC" which is the rightmost pin in the photo.

Do I connect the ground to the main header marked gnd then, also?

Where can I find the connectors with wires attached to them.  I’ve been looking but I’m not even clear about what they would be called.
 
stan2004 posted:

I recommend you sketch out a rough "to-scale" drawing of you layout showing the dimensions involved.   The "beauty" of relays is it allows you to use low-current signals to control (switch) high-current signals.  Not mentioned yet is the ability to then use thin/cheaper wiring for the control signals to activate the relays as opposed to running long lengths of thick/expensive wiring that carry the track-power. 

While you could "steal" track-power to provide the control current to activate the various relays, as GRJ says I'd go with a $2 external DC power supply (wall-wart).  This leaves max available track power from your transformers to drive your trains.

As GRJ shows, you can buy multi-relay modules from eBay for about $1 per relay.  These come in 1,2,4,8,16 relays per board for roughly $1 per relay.  This variety allows you to choose sizes that match the application to minimize the amount of high-current wiring.  For example, for roundhouse whiskers you could use a multi-channel relay module.  For a lone siding sitting out in the middle of nowhere you could use a single-channel relay module.  If using an AIU, this constrains your control signals to be centralized in increments of 10 (i.e., 10 accessory relays per AIU).  So, again, if you sketch out your layout the idea is to minimize the amount of high-current wiring relative to low-current wiring.  A related benefit goes to Matt's point of minimizing the length of track voltage wiring and any "negative effects" of running more wiring than needed as the track voltage wiring carries the DCS signal (while the low-voltage DC control signals do not).

s-l1600

Also, if you go with the eBay relay modules, most have so-called square-pin header connectors.  There are adapter cables/connectors which make it easier to work with these.  So if you go this route we can recommend how to attach to these connectors.

 

The connector is a so-called 2.54mm (0.1") square-pin header.  You buy individual female crimp sockets, then use a crimp tool to attach to a wire, then insert crimped wire into a housing with desired number of positions/contacts.   Housings come in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. positions.  The relay module shown above has a 6 pin header so would require crimping 6 wires and inserting them into a 6P housing.

header crimps and housing examples

header crimps and 6P housing

Crimps should be maybe a penny a piece and you'd buy them by the hundreds.  Housings may be 25 cents each or so.  A crimp tool might be $10 (?) though you might be able to "get by" with needle-nose pliers - your mileage may vary!

I'm skeptical you would be able to purchase pre-crimped wires with lengths of 10 feet (or whatever) to reach from a relay module back to a control panel. 

That said, I'd suggest using a relay module with screw-terminal inputs (rather than the 2.54mm header).  Here's a 4 channel module for less than $1 per relay.  

12v 4 channel relay module with screw terminal inputs

Note: this module operates from 12V so you'd use a 12V DC wall-wart; I see the previous example used a 5V relay module and a 5V DC wall-wart.  I saw on eBay they also have 5V relay modules with screw-terminal inputs.  It's just I have the above 12V channel module.  A 12V DC wall-wart that can power dozens of relay channels is about $2.  

12v dc wall-wart and screw-terminal - december 2017 ebay

You can also buy a handy adapter that converts the barrel-coax to screw-terminals so you don't have to splice the wall-wart output connector.

adapter

 

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Thanks!  I have abandoned trying to use the relay board that I had previously bought and purchased the 4 relay board that you recommended. The screw connectors are a bit easier to deal with.  Also bought the "wall-wart" to power it.  Im still feeling my way around the electronics.

I am still trying to understand why the AIU cannot handle this directly without adding another relay board.

The reason is that track power may involve substantial amperage if there is a track short, exceeding the capacity of the AIU relays.  It is cheaper to replace an external relay with burned contact points than an internal AIU relay.  Shorts in accessory and switch circuits are rare.  Unfortunately, not so with track circuits.  Even without a short, track currents up to 10 amps are not unusual, which if I recall correctly, is double the rated capacity of the AIU relays.

Too easily obtained from Chinese sources, and uncompetitively cheaper.

Do be aware that if you have many AIU accessory relays activated at the same time, you may need a larger power supply feeding the AUX port in the controlling TIU.  I beleve 2.5 amps is the latest recommendation in case you have this situation.  (5 AIUs per TIU, time 10 relays per AIU, equals 50 relays).

George Mason posted:

Ok, that makes sense. I am surprised that MTH hasn’t marketed a solution to this issue.

I'm speculating, but I'd think their logic might be that whatever protection you have in place for your transformer (fuse, breaker, whatever) would interrupt the short before it does damage to the relay.

As discussed earlier in the thread, some reasons you might want to use an AIU in conjunction with an external relay:

1) Larger current in the external relay.  As RJR notes the internal AIU relay is 5 Amps and the recommended current is even less.

2) Ability to use much thinner control wiring from AIU to distant relays.  This can drastically reduce wiring bulk and cost.  

3) If using DCS, there is anecdotal evidence that simpler is better with respect to wiring "geometry".  If you run the "hot" power from block-AIU-block the DCS signal is also running over that extended distance.  If the external relay is close to the block, the DCS signal travels over a much shorter distance.

4) The internal SPDT (single-pole, double-throw) relay may not be the right contact arrangement.  For example, the Tortoise switch machine uses a DPDT (double-pole, double-throw) relay in some wiring configurations.  And MTH has published how to drive such an external relay from the AIU.  I realize this has nothing to do with a block power application.

5) Separate from the contact arrangement, the external relay module can provide additional functionality.  For example, for a couple of bucks there are relay modules that have timing capability.  So the external relay can be limited to turn on for no more than 5 seconds (or whatever).  This can be handy if the ACC(essory) port is controlling an uncoupling electromagnet which might burn up if power is applied for too long.

6) Finally, an out-of-leftfield idea is the AIU relay can "press" the button(s) of a remote control wireless fob that then controls a distant relay.  I just recently posted this on the O gauge archive here.

Ok! I now have the parts that I need. It appears that I can isolate a siding by removing the jumper on the Fastrack switch extension. On the relay board, do I connect the wire from the AIU to the IN1 to 4 connections? And the hot wire to the COM1 to 4 connections at the relays? What does NC1 and NO represent?  I'm assuming that NO1 is the output to the center rail of the track.

I know that these are rather basic questions, but I don't want to screw up the electronics. Speaking of which, I have a circuit breaker between the TIU and the tracks. Any other protection that I should add?

Thanks!

AIU to relay module hookup

Hopefully above diagram will clarify matters.  Diagram should be click-able to get better resolution.  I show only 3 of the 4 channels used to show you can choose to use any or all 4 channels.   The "hot" or center-rail power (thick wire) connections are on the right or relay side of the module.  The NO (Normally Open) screw-terminal gets connected to the COM (Common) terminal for a particular relay channel when the TIU ACC port triggers the relay.  This particular relay module is nice in that an LED indicator turns on when the TIU ACC port is triggering the channel; you'll also hear the AIU internal relay "click" along with the relay module's relay.

As for circuit protection, what you're doing here does not in itself increase/decrease the need and/or effectiveness of what you already have.  In 

 

 

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  • AIU to relay module hookup

Instead of running the DC+ from the wall wart to the AIU, I Used the “U” terminal on my Lionel ZW. The hot, from the ZW goes to the output side of the relay board. With NO1 going to the center rail, I have no power on the siding. If I switch the NO1 wire to the NC1 post, I have power to it. When I select off, it still has power. Also, the relay LED does not light. 

I know that I have something wired incorrectly. I just don’t know what.

help!

Stan knows his business and you should not vary from his diagram.  I won't even read past your first sentence. When you introduce the transformer terminals to what he labels DC input from wall wart, you are now applying AC and the system won't work.  AC should only be applied on the relay contacts side, as he has shown

RJR posted:

Don't sweat it.  No one was offended. Glad this helped.  Everyone's knowledge of any subject began at 0.

One last thing. Should all of my track lines be powered through the relays as well? I am getting some DCS issues when starting an engine from the siding. It’s as though the signal from the AIU is not transmitting onto the siding.

George Mason posted:
 

One last thing. Should all of my track lines be powered through the relays as well?  I am getting some DCS issues when starting an engine from the siding.  It’s as though the signal from the AIU is not transmitting onto the siding.

What exactly are you seeing?

When you initially apply track power to a DCS engine, the engine must see DCS activity within a few seconds for it to stay silent/shut-down in command-mode.  Otherwise it reverts to conventional-mode and starts up with sounds and lights.  Is that what you're seeing?

 

George Mason posted:

I’m still seeing the engines starting up when power is applied to the tracks. I’m able to shut them down and restart them using the remote. But, if I don’t get to them soon enough,they start running in conventional mode

How do I ensure that the dcs signal gets there before the engines decide to power up? 

When you saying "start running in conventional" do you mean they actually take off (moving)?  If that is the case, then the engines are locked in conventional Fwd or Rev which can be reset.  But if the engines just start up in conventional Neutral with sounds and lights, then I'd ask how truly important it is that the engine come up silent.  That is, if you have a lighted passenger cars on the siding, those lights will turn on too (not that they would be off otherwise!).  One thing guys do is turn down the mechanical volume control knob so that if the engine indeed starts up in conventional, it will at least be silent so just the lights turn on which may not be as "offensive."

But lets say if you absolutely positively need/want the engine to power up silently in DCS command mode.  And it's inconvenient or impractical to navigate the DCS remote from the AIU Accessory menu (that turns ON the siding power) back to another menu which issues a DCS command.  Note the command does not even have to be to the specific engine address on the siding.  Any DCS command (even to a different engine) sent out on the track will silence the engine on the siding if done so within a timely manner.

Here are two options; I'm sure there are more that one of the DCS gurus might offer.

1. Depending on how many sidings you are controlling, you can re-configure/re-wire so that when you power-up the siding with the external relay, you simultaneously power-up a TIU channel.  When a TIU channel initially turns on, it sends out a benign DCS command (aka "watchdog") that a DCS engine will recognize as DCS activity and hence remain silent and shutdown in command-mode.  The reality is this can be impractical in a layout with many sidings or, say, a turntable with multiple whiskers/stubs.

2. Attach a DCS Remote Commander to the siding. 

MTH-50-1033 dcs remote commander base

You may have one lying around from an MTH Starter Set.  A DCSRC has the useful feature of generating the "watchdog" when it initially receives track power.  Obviously if you have one sitting in the closet this is a zero-cost solution.  OTOH, if you have to buy one (maybe $25 or so?) it gets back to how much you really want/need the silent start up behavior.  

 

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Last edited by stan2004

Thanks for the info. The I have two track ovals and one siding. All are powered with an AIU that triggers a relay for each. The engines will occasionally turn on with no lights and I am unable to control them with the remote. Although, I can shut them down with the remote. And then restart them, after that they work normally. I would prefer that they not power up when the track is powered. Especially the siding. 

George,

Is there any way to prevent them from starting when I apply power to the track?

Yes, there is...
From page 106 of The DCS Companion 3rd Edition:

Missing the Watchdog Signal

If individual DCS engines miss seeing the watchdog signal, they can be either brought directly into DCS active mode by pressing the Start Up key or put into DCS stealth mode by pressing the Shut Down key. However, this is not the same for lashups.

If a lashup is powered on after the watchdog signal has come and gone, perhaps if its siding was toggled on after voltage appeared at the TIU channel outputs connected to its siding, there are two ways to put the lashup into DCS mode. One way to put the lashup into DCS mode is to turn off power to the inputs for the TIU channel that is connected to the track upon which the lashup resides, toggle on the siding and then re-apply power. The other way is to first highlight the lashup in the remote's Active or Inactive Engine list. Then, flip the toggle switch and immediately press the thumbwheel to select the lashup. It will come up in DCS stealth mode, dark and silent. This also works with individual DCS engines. 


DCS Book CoverThis and a whole lot more about DCS is all in MTH’s “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!"

This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Stan came up with a cool little board for the DCSRC to solve the issue of yard tracks and watchdog signals, I added a bit of value by turning it into a little PCB that made it easy to fabricate.  It's all described in this thread, you have to read down a couple of pages before you get to the actual project.  The board is simply added to the DCSRC to provide continuous watchdog signals.

Proposed Solution to DCS Watchdog in Yard Tracks

 

 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Stan came up with a cool little board for the DCSRC to solve the issue of yard tracks and watchdog signals, I added a bit of value by turning it into a little PCB that made it easy to fabricate.  It's all described in this thread, you have to read down a couple of pages before you get to the actual project.  The board is simply added to the DCSRC to provide continuous watchdog signals.

Proposed Solution to DCS Watchdog in Yard Tracks

 

 

Are you selling these?

George Mason posted:

The DCSRCs are selling for $40 and up on eBay...

Note that you only need the "receiver" of the DCSRC.  You don't need the handheld remote in this specific application.  If you bide your time on eBay or even on OGR Buy-Sell you ought to be able to get one for much less.  For example, here's a receiver-only that went for <$20 all-in.

dcsrc receiver only on ebay

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George Mason posted:

Thanks John! I guess I should start accumulating these for later when I start building a permanent layout!

So if I understand, wrt the AIU and relays, you are kind of in the experimentation phase getting your ducks in a row for the permanent layout?  Do you know how many AIU-controlled sidings you plan to have?  And are they grouped together like in a yard or a roundhouse turntable?

That is, if you can't get an assembled (and tested) DCSRC with the Perpetual Barking Watchdog modification, it can be a challenge if you're not comfortable soldering and managing somewhat tiny electronic components.  To that end, depending on how complex your layout will be (number and placement of AIU-controlled sidings) I think I have another method that should not require any soldering.  It still requires a DCSRC but not the modification; it would use low-cost ($2) eBay relay modules to momentarily attach a stock (unmodified) DCSRC to a siding when it is turned on.

If this is of interest I can write it up if for no other reason than it might further clarify what's going on with a DCS siding that is turned-on by a toggle-switch or AIU-controlled-relay after the TIU is already up and running.

My old age must affecting my thought process. At this point, I have two groups of sidings planned. I am already using relays between an AIU and the tracks. If I place a DCSRC between each relay and the track(s) they are controlling, then the engines should see the signal and remain “asleep”.

My only concern is once all is powered up and I reach for the TIU remote, will the signal from the TIU pass through the DCSRC to the engines and be recognized by them?

Definitely a simpler approach if it works. It seems to me that MTH left a few gaps in their DCS system/devices.

Thanks!

George Mason posted:

... It seems to me that MTH left a few gaps in their DCS system/devices.

As Barry points out earlier, the AIU (Accessory Interface Unit) is meant to control turnouts/switches (via SW ports) and accessories (via the ACC ports) as opposed to engines.  But to your point, I think it is a fair criticism/observation to ponder if the AIU could have been designed to better control power to engine sidings, roundhouse stubs, etc.  For example, MTH could have included some setup mode for an ACC port where after you turn it on, it the TIU would automatically send out the magic "watchdog" DCS packet that would keep an engine silent and shutdown.  For all I know this has previously been suggested and it's on some nice-to-have wish list along with dozens of others.  Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we have to work with what we have.  That is, the "manual" workaround is as described earlier to use the remote to press some sequence of buttons to send out DCS activity to inform the newly powered engine that it is in command-mode and hence remain in shutdown.

So back to the DCSRC workaround to automatically send out DCS activity when a siding it initially powered.

As I read your last post, there may be a misunderstanding.  The benefit of the modified DCSRC is you only need 1 DCSRC for an entire yard of multiple sidings where power is controlled by AIU ACC ports (or manual toggle switches) .   Yes; you could attach 1 DCSRC for each siding but that gets expensive rather quickly!  So I just want to be absolutely clear that we're talking about a method to use one DCSRC to generate the magic DCS activity signal (aka watchdog) for a group of many sidings such as on a yard or roundhouse.

So if your proposed layout has 2 yards with, say, 5 sidings per yard, the idea is you would need only 2 (vs. 10) modified DCSRC receiver units.  You still need 10 AIU ACC(essory) ports to individually control ON/OFF power to the 2 x 5 = 10 sidings.

Stan, that’s exactly what I want to do. Having 4 or 5 engines power up when I apply power to a set of sidings can be a little unnerving.

John, even with the modified DCSRC, will I be able to control the individual engines from the TIU remote. If that’s the the case, then that’s what I need. I’m willing to try making one of the piggy back boards. (What could possibly go wrong?)

I still cannot believe that it did not occur to MTH that this would be a ‘must have’ option.

where do I go from here?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Sounds like George really needs a couple of the A&T Perpetual Barking Watchdog boards to equip a couple of DCSRC units.

Agreed.  BUT I believe procuring a resistor here, a capacitor there, messing with bare circuit-boards, soldering, testing, etc. can be a hurdle for a lot of guys.

Soooo...here's my latest hare-brained scheme.  This uses $2 (free shipping from Asia) eBay "Delay-OFF" relay modules.  You need one Delay-OFF relay module per siding.  But one unmodified (stock) DCSRC receiver can serve multiple sidings.

12v delay OFF relay module 2 bucks on eBay

AIU siding power with stock DCSRC

Here's the idea.  A Delay-OFF relay module turns on for some fixed settable period, then it turns OFF.  So when power is applied to a particular siding using the existing external relay module, a paired Delay-OFF relay also turns on for, say, 5 seconds.  The Delay-OFF relay module momentarily (for 5 seconds or whatever) attaches the DCSRC to the newly powered siding.  The DCSRC generates its "watchdog" signal to the newly powered siding.  The Delay-OFF relay module then turns off (after 5 seconds)...but track power is still applied to the siding since the main power relay is still ON as controlled by the ACC port.

So after 5 seconds, the DCSRC is disconnected and turned OFF.  This means the DCSRC is ready to be paired to an additional siding that gets powered ON.  Thus, one DCSRC can service multiple sidings...AND multiple sidings can be active!

I realize this is all getting somewhat convoluted but this is a discussion forum to share ideas. 

 

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  • 12v delay OFF relay module 2 bucks on eBay
Last edited by stan2004

Correct.  When you press "ON" for a particular ACC port, two relays turn ON.  Like you say, the "power" relay applies power to the selected siding.  At the the same time the paired "DCSRC" relay connects the DCSRC-receiver to the newly powered siding.  The DCSRC-receiver generates the watchdog signal within 1 second of receiving power (then it goes idle and does nothing more).  Because the DCSRC relay is a Delay-OFF type, it will disconnect from the newly powered track after 5 seconds (or whatever you set the delay time).  The siding still has power since the "power" relay is still on.  

The DCSRC-receiver is now unpowered and disconnected from any siding...which means it is available to pair with another or additional "power" relays to supply the watchdog to other sidings.

Comparing/contrasting this new configuration relative to that using the modified DCSRC can be confusing but here goes.  The following diagram is from the long thread where the modified DCSRC (a.k.a. Perpetual Barking Watchdog) was born.

dcs%2520perpetual%2520watchdog%2520generator

In this configuration, the DCSRC is always powered.  Remember that the DCSRC generates a single watchdog when it first gets power.  The modification alters the DCSRC behavior so it generates a watchdog about once per second as long as it receives power.  Then, whenever a siding is turned on, that siding will receive a watchdog within a second which keeps any newly powered engine silent and shutdown.

As to what's "the plan", I don't know of anyone who has implemented the scheme using an unmodified DCSRC with multiple Delay-OFF relays.  I just came up with it after pondering the pitfalls and landmines of assembling circuits at the component level.

 

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Last edited by stan2004

And in the interest of completeness, here's yet another method that does NOT require the modified DCSRC.  

DCS PBW using multifunction timer relay

12v multifunction timer relay frm01

For less than $5 (free shipping from Asia), you can get a multifunction timer relay module that runs off of 12V DC.  12V DC is already available.  The multifunction timer can be set to turn ON for exactly 1.00 seconds, then turn OFF for exactly 0.10 seconds, and cycle ON-OFF forever.  By inserting the modules relay contacts as shown above (breaking the connection to the DCSRC), an unmodified DCSRC will receive power for exactly 1.0 seconds which is enough time for it to generate the watchdog.  Then it is briefly powered down (for 0.1 sec) then re-powered so that it again generates the watchdog.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

So this method would only require 1 multifunction timer module to service multiple sidings in a yard.  There are probably even less expensive cycling relay modules but I happen to have the above relay module and know it will do the job.

This module is constantly clicking ON-OFF thousands of times per hour.  Click-click-click...  but maybe it's under the table and inaudible.  The PBW modification essentially does the same thing except no moving parts.

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  • DCS PBW using multifunction timer relay
  • 12v multifunction timer relay frm01

Despite the listing wording, that's a Delay-ON relay module (instead of a Delay-OFF).   So you apply 12V to the input, the relay waits a settable time delay, then the relay turns ON.  For the application under discussion, you want a Delay-OFF.  So you apply 12V to the input, the relay immediately turns ON (attaches DCSRC to siding), then waits a settable time delay, then the relay turns OFF (detaches DCSRC from siding). 

I have both types of these Delay relay modules.  Both have applications in O-gauge. 

Speaking of "patience"... I paid $1.26 each (free shipping) for the Delay-OFF module.  I paid $0.77 each (free shipping) for the Delay-ON module.  Prices move around.  Go figure!

stan2004 posted:

And in the interest of completeness, here's yet another method that does NOT require the modified DCSRC.  

DCS PBW using multifunction timer relay

12v multifunction timer relay frm01

For less than $5 (free shipping from Asia), you can get a multifunction timer relay module that runs off of 12V DC.  12V DC is already available.  The multifunction timer can be set to turn ON for exactly 1.00 seconds, then turn OFF for exactly 0.10 seconds, and cycle ON-OFF forever.  By inserting the modules relay contacts as shown above (breaking the connection to the DCSRC), an unmodified DCSRC will receive power for exactly 1.0 seconds which is enough time for it to generate the watchdog.  Then it is briefly powered down (for 0.1 sec) then re-powered so that it again generates the watchdog.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

So this method would only require 1 multifunction timer module to service multiple sidings in a yard.  There are probably even less expensive cycling relay modules but I happen to have the above relay module and know it will do the job.

This module is constantly clicking ON-OFF thousands of times per hour.  Click-click-click...  but maybe it's under the table and inaudible.  The PBW modification essentially does the same thing except no moving parts.

Stan, I just ordered two of this module. it will be arriving by a slow boat from China. Soooo, you'll be hearing from me again in the future. In the meantime, I have to search for a command module. Its been a long time since I last read a circuit diagram. At the top of your diagram. do you have a rotary switch there that cycles between the sidings? Or does that indicate a switch that is dedicated to one siding. That is, one switch for each siding.

Really appreciate the help that I am getting with everyone on this. Its going to be a sweet setup!

Stan,

I am interested in your "hare-brained scheme" with an unmodified DCSRC connected to some Delay-OFF relays. I just have a couple of questions:

1) Is it okay for the hot inputs to come from a TIU channel that is wired in the normal fashion with transformer power coming through the TIU (i.e. not in passive mode)?

2) I'm guessing that a choke is not needed in this setup. Is that correct?

Thanks.

John

George Mason posted:

...At the top of your diagram. do you have a rotary switch there that cycles between the sidings? Or does that indicate a switch that is dedicated to one siding. That is, one switch for each siding.

That diagram is based on GRJ's original proposal to silence DCS engines on a newly powered yard siding.  In his case a manual rotary-switch selects one siding from many.  In your case you are using the AIU in conjunction with external relays to select one siding from many; and you can power up any or all of the sidings at any given time.  The thread is a very long winding road which ended up with the modified-DCSRC.  GRJ was proposing a perfectly functional method; I proposed an alternative and built a proof-of-concept thinking it would be a one-off.  But somehow it gained traction and the rest is history; circuit boards were made, kits were offered, etc. 

So the latest plan is to use the cycling relay module?  So 1 x $5 cycling module to handle a 5-siding yard...rather than 5 x $2 Delay-OFF modules for a 5-siding yard.  Of course you still need the (unmodified) DCSRC-receiver.  It may actually turn out that a single cycling module (and single DCSRC-receiver) can handle BOTH of your 5-siding yards.  This will kind of depend on the size of the layout and how far apart your two yards are from each other.  But we can explore that when you get closer to construction - and the wiring will NOT be much different.

Last edited by stan2004
johnf posted:

I am interested in your "hare-brained scheme" with an unmodified DCSRC connected to some Delay-OFF relays. I just have a couple of questions:

1) Is it okay for the hot inputs to come from a TIU channel that is wired in the normal fashion with transformer power coming through the TIU (i.e. not in passive mode)?

2) I'm guessing that a choke is not needed in this setup. Is that correct?

1.  Yes.  

2.  That's what I think.  I believe the high-current choke shown in the GRJ's diagram has to do with operating a TIU in passive-mode with a PSX-AC breaker.  But you're running the TIU in normal fashion.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

 Ok, that makes sense. I am surprised that MTH hasn’t marketed a solution to this issue.

You may call this an “issue”, however, It’s not actually a problem. The AIU is designed and intended to operate switch tracks and accessories, not engines.

Barry,

This has nothing to do with the above text. I was trying to help someone out with his MTH Wi-Fi and since you wrote the book you on it, I am writing to you.  

1] What are the issues associated with not having a Wi-Fi unit connected to the internet via a wired connection or home Wi-Fi?

2] if not connected to the internet, what errors would one see when trying to add an engine?

I guess that I’m going to eventually buy a Wi-Fi unit to run my trains. Is there a second edition of the Wi-Fi bible under development?

Thanks for the help!

George

 

George,

1] What are the issues associated with not having a Wi-Fi unit connected to the internet via a wired connection or home Wi-Fi?

The only issues are that you would be unable to access other WiFi devices on your home network or use any of web-based commands in the DCS App to access MTH web pages.

2] if not connected to the internet, what errors would one see when trying to add an engine?

There’s no difference when adding engines with or without Internet access.

I guess that I’m going to eventually buy a Wi-Fi unit to run my trains. Is there a second edition of the Wi-Fi bible under development?

The 2nd edition of The DCS WiFi Companion was published this past March.

Barry,

How does the wifi unit determine if the engine on the track is supported? It must have a database somewhere that IDs the train and its features. Or is that updated when new releases of the firmware are issued?

I have your other DCS book in Kindle format. Ill have to check again and see if the wifi book is available.

Thanks,

George

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