Requesting Help/Advice: Ives 3250 Wheel is Loose on Axle

You might try some Super Glue to lock the wheel in place.  However, I suspect there is oil on the axle and that might make the Super Glue not bind like it should.  

The best way will be to knurl the axle.  Just enough to bind the wheel.  I have repaired hundreds of these situations this way in order to keep the original wheels.

Nation Wide Lines posted:

You might try some Super Glue to lock the wheel in place.  However, I suspect there is oil on the axle and that might make the Super Glue not bind like it should.  

I should’ve specified that Loctite(spelling?) is super glue. Regardless, the point you make regarding the oil being on the axle and thus in the hole in which the axle resides. Thanks for the input, Nation Wise Linesm, I really appreciate it!

Rob English posted:

The best way will be to knurl the axle.  Just enough to bind the wheel.  I have repaired hundreds of these situations this way in order to keep the original wheels.

@Rob English I’m sorry to be naive but I have never heard of knurling. That said, I looked it up and understand the concept. The thing is- how would I go about knurling the axle for this engine? Do I have to remove the axle? And after doing so- what tools would I need that are specific to knurling old toy train axles? Thank for your help again!

You have to consider metal hardness first off, if not soft or is too soft; heat hardening or work hardning metal, etc. etc.?.. i.e. how brittle is it cold? or hot? or after?

Clean clean clean before you start adheasives. Strong solvent, acetone, lacquer thinner, Xylene, etc. 

 You can  knurl by squishing slightly with a hammer, squeezing in a big vice, or using a chisel- blunt or sharp depending on metal hardness and your best guess on reactions based on metal softness, etc.;

 Ideally you want to make V-s with plowed up, raised, edges (splines), parallel to the axle.  

Sometimes crossing the axis is needed or easiest, ect. though. 

You can also swedge the end of rod/dowels with an X, and or center punch, or mushroom ends with hammers sometimes. Kinda like a rivet.

Vice grips sometimes have blunted knurled/cutting jawset, deep in the jaw. Grinding more of a V into that jawset might help. 

Loc-tite has a new shockproof/flexing super glue gel out that needs some experimenting with, but may be promising.

They also seem to have a newer thread repair, I was under the impression it was thin, but I haven't looked into it.

Loc-tite high temp, high strength threadlocker,   or better yet,     loc-tite "bearing retainer"(hi-heat..green?) I'd expect to work better overall.

Hennings re-casts of some old wheels. Worth checking i.m.o.

I wonder if thin super glue, carefully applied into the cracks might stop the cracks from moving as fast; or if the capillary pull during cure would just flake or pull at other fissures?

  A wetting agent/capillary/adheasion improver to get in to cracks deep? (I'll bet they have all of the above additives/pre-treatments at loc-tite's site.)

Cleaning wheel tread with acetone/nail polish remover asap of course,

Once the deep fissures were filled, the outer "chunks" could be filled with JBWeld. ...I might try that with this once it actually starts derailing. What's funny is it's the only single reduction Marx I know of that doesn't need the wheels pulled to remove the armature. Triangular peak of one winding snakes pasts the break while the break is at wheels 10oclock, and "low"/gap between the arma.windings faces the good wheel's flange (armature gap at 8oclock on the arma&2o clock on the good wheel)

StevefromPA posted:

Rob English posted:

The best way will be to knurl the axle.  Just enough to bind the wheel.  I have repaired hundreds of these situations this way in order to keep the original wheels.

@Rob English I’m sorry to be naive but I have never heard of knurling. That said, I looked it up and understand the concept. The thing is- how would I go about knurling the axle for this engine? Do I have to remove the axle? And after doing so- what tools would I need that are specific to knurling old toy train axles? Thank for your help again!

Take the offending wheel off then...

just take some sharp diagonal cutters and squeeze them on the axle 1/4" to 3/8" in from the end.  Just enough to mark the axle and raise burrs but do not bend or deform the axle otherwise. 2 rows of 4 marks 90 degrees of separation should do it. then press the wheel back on.

It might take a combo of knurling and glue. Once the wheel is back on, drop some glue on the hub. I've not tried this myself yet cause if the knurling doesn't work the wheel is probably shot. Also, are the axle bushings ok? Too much play will likely cause wheel failure down the road unless you don't run it much

I would recommend JBWeld for the job. It will give the tightest grip. Use a cotton swab with solvent to degrease the wheel hub and axle. drop some fresh mixed JB and drizzle some in the wheel hub. Takes 24 hours to completely set, but will give a hard bond between the wheel and axle.

Chuck reminded me of something I've only seen once so far. It sure looked like silver solder on one end of an axle. Not sure how much heat it would take and the axle needs in place to do it. The JB Weld should work but is pretty much a one way ticket for the wheel has been my experience 

Rob English posted:

just take some sharp diagonal cutters and squeeze them on the axle 1/4" to 3/8" in from the end.

@Rob English I'm struggling to visualize what you're saying.  Would you apply the cutters to the end of the axle (blades parallel to the axle), or across the axle (blades at right angles?)  If the former, it seems like the blades would be prone to slipping off, with the axle squirting off to one side or another.

The factory jobs seem to have the grooves / splines parallel to the axle, projecting from the end toward the middle with a depth equal or slightly less than the thickness of the wheel.  I can definitely visualize using vice grips for this purpose, IF the axle metal is soft enough to be deformed in this manner.

You run the risk of deforming the axle with the vise grip method.  the Diagonal cutters will leave a couple indent/burrs PERPENDICULAR to the long axis with my method.  Thats really all the grip needed for these applications. We can't really "knurl" the axle in the machine shop sense.  That would take a lathe and a knurling tool.

The cutters will deform the surface quicker than vice grips, but run a risk of cutting if you're real strong or using compound cutters.

The hardness of the axle and exactly how it is hardened could have inpact here too. Some methods leave only a hard surface, some deep and some end up brittle; while others might be forged that way. 

  The vice grips pressure and blunt blades are capable of crushing before cutting is what he's trying to say. You need to determine which method suits your skills; both could work.

Cutting ever so slightly moves surface metal while leaving the core strength. 

Parallel to axle is going to give grip against axle spinning in place.   Perpendicular is going to prevent pulling off. 

(many toy cars use a crosshatch at about 45° for holding wheels on and providing grip during tourqe application. )

JBW will likey hold best, but bearing retainer should allow easier future disassembly.  If you can get JBWelded parts seperated, the residues sand/grind off easy. I think a wheel puller might break the bond, but not 100% sure. Heat might help to crack it's bond (with metal expansion).

Regular JBW is slightly stronger than 5minJBW imo.

Steve,

      We just made a run of new axles last week for the Ives locos, and have new wheels if you just need one or two.   Harry  

Short of getting a axle and new wheel from Henning's and have done it several times slipping wheel off useing acetone clean any substance off axle and inside of wheel hole the 2 part JB weld will work.

Have done that on several and many years later still holding fine.