I wonder what powers them; there may be a propane tank mounted somewhere.

Or maybe batteries, inverter, and a belt drive ofrm an axle like a cabin car setup.

Just some thoughts.

Its diesel powered, you can see the tank in the shadows of the frame.

If you look on shapeways with the term "reefer unit" or similar terms, many of these things are on there.  If its the wrong scale, message the shop owner and ask if they can re-scale it. Most of them are amenable to doing so, as its just a % size change when you create the stl.

The frame is probably something you'd have to build, or someone would have to print the frame and reefer as a unit, but that file might be harder to find.

The real units were actually HVAC, providing heating, cooling and ventilation to keep the internal components at a constant, optimal 75 degrees Fahrenheit.

It would be more desirable to have it all printed as one unit and not be doing a lot of fabrication of the frame after the fact.

The only thing I found on Shapeways is an N-scale one, pretty plain.  It does look like the shape of the Reefer I see on the booster cars.

@Richie C. posted:

The real units were actually HVAC, providing heating, cooling and ventilation to keep the internal components at a constant, optimal 75 degrees Fahrenheit.

I'm curious why only two of the cars in the train had the climate control...

Informed speculation:

The two cars with HVAC units are probably  the two forward segments, one per booster, which have the igniters and some associated avionics installed. I guess that somebody probably decided that it would be better to keep the SLS version nice and comfy.

The Lionel booster set (and the MTH version I have) model the Space Shuttle SRBs and transport. That had four motor segments for one booster packed with solid propellant (forward, forward center, aft center, and aft) plus a car with the nose and aft skirt. I don't believe they usually sent the nose/skirt back and forth to Utah, so a typical Shuttle train had eight cars with just the motor segments. And the forward segment cars did NOT have HVAC units.

The Space Launch System (SLS) version of the SRB has an added fifth motor segment ("center center") so an SLS booster train will typically have ten booster cars  (with two having extra amenities). And a "prototypically correct" SLS booster train would have a couple more center segments under the covers.

John

@jwtex posted:

The Space Launch System (SLS) version of the SRB has an added fifth motor segment ("center center") so an SLS booster train will typically have ten booster cars  (with two having extra amenities). And a "prototypically correct" SLS booster train would have a couple more center segments under the covers.

I looked at videos of several booster trains, and I don't know what the "center segments" refers to.  The deviation from the Lionel Rocket Booster train was no passenger car on any of them.  However they all had 10  to 12 booster cars and a total of 11 buffer cars, the lead car has the clearance bars on it.  Some of them had all the buffer cars at the end, not really doing any "buffering".

This one's odd as it has the ten booster sections, but the buffer cars were all bunched at the end of the train!

Here's one with twelve booster sections.  The climate control was on the 2nd and 3rd booster sections.

Another odd one, this one has eleven booster sections, no climate control, and all the buffer cars are on the rear again.

This one has twelve booster sections.

I have something down in the basement. I will have to take a pic of it. I got it sometime in the past. It's an air conditioning unit for modern refer cars. that looks like what you want.

Trouble is, I can't remember where I got them!

Maybe they came from a diecast truck store? ( O scale)

Looks like this:

My MTH set has a box labeled "front segment", two labeled "center segment", and one "aft segment". That's what the Shuttle SRB motor segments (the ones filled with solid propellant) were called. The SLS SRBs have an added center segment (imaginatively called "center center") so there are ten motor segments in a full SLS stack or train. But I guess the train goes with what ever the manifest says.

The buffer cars are placed between booster cars with LOADED segments for multiple reasons like minimizing risk of damaging multiple segments in a derailment or reducing loading on bridges, but empty cars or cars with expended/cleaned segments (basically big but relatively lightweight tubes) don't require the buffers interspersed. So any train heading back to Utah could be put together in any order that's easiest to switch.

Also, note that in the train with twelve booster cars there are two that are different - the red ones with twelve axles rather than eight. One of the videos mentions that those were test cars for carrying booster segments for a different rocket.

GRJ, I think Naveen steered me to those units in this post (if it helps you?)

modern reefers | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

@Engineer-Joe posted:

GRJ, I think Naveen steered me to those units in this post (if it helps you?)

modern reefers | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

I dont think those are available anymore.  I've been looking for the for some time.  Maybe someone on the forum could 3D print them

do you want the black piping too ?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Has anyone printed the A/C units for the Rocket Booster Train?  I was watching a video or two, and noticed the first couple of booster sections on the train had large A/C units on the booster cars.  These look like a cool addition to the booster train.  Naturally, they'd need that little Carrier logo on them.   I did wonder why all the boosters didn't have that provision, maybe something special about the booster sections in the A/C equipped modules?

I'm surprised that this wasn't an option with the booster car set, there's even slots to mount them on the cars!  You might have to dispense with the brake wheel, but I see the prototype doesn't have those anyway.

John, you photos (all of them) are fantastic……thank you

@AlanRail posted:

do you want the black piping too ?

I would want the black piping, but I cant speak for everyone!

Guys, I'm not going to blow smoke up  your rocket booster, I know nothing about these particular hvac units.  My first job was in hvac (15 years) straight out of school.  More than likely the black piping is flexible duct providing both supply and return air. In my opinion the duct work would be critical on a model to give purpose to the hvac unit. Thanks for posting John, very interesting topic.

@AlanRail posted:

do you want the black piping too ?

Icing on the cake.  I guess that would certainly complete the look!  Of course, one fly in that ointment is that the platform moves in relation to the container on the bed, so the black pipes would have to be flexible for it to work.

@Weener Dog posted:

Guys, I'm not going to blow smoke up  your rocket booster, I know nothing about these particular hvac units.  My first job was in hvac (15 years) straight out of school.  More than likely the black piping is flexible duct providing both supply and return air. In my opinion the duct work would be critical on a model to give purpose to the hvac unit. Thanks for posting John, very interesting topic.

Clearly the black pipes were for the air handler, and indeed they would certainly be crucial in the real world!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Icing on the cake.  I guess that would certainly complete the look!  Of course, one fly in that ointment is that the platform moves in relation to the container on the bed, so the black pipes would have to be flexible for it to work.

What if you use small springs painted black like (I think it was) harmonyards used for engine-tender hoses? 

You need bigger than small springs for this one.  FWIW, I used small rubber hoses for the MTH Propane Turbine because they were the right size.  However, for these A/C air ducts, they'd have to be much larger to look to scale.

I have been meaning to use flexible resin.

I would think they'd have to be corrugated expanding tubing to work properly.  I tried it on O72 and there isn't too much movement, but on tighter curves, they'd have a lot more flex required.

How about these to use as black HVAC flex ducts?  They are from the tank train cars  

My understanding is that only two of the flatcars had the HVAC units installed because those two flat cars carried the aft segments of the rocket, i.e., the segments with booster nozzles. NASA had increased the size of the nozzles for the new SLS boosters and utilized new materials in their design and the new materials were more sensitive to temperature changes during transit than previous versions.

Since the transport was planned for the middle of summer, installation of HVAC units was needed. UP designed the racks and Carrier produced the units.

Someone mentioned "buffer" cars. Because of the extreme weight of the shipment, placement of the flatcars in the consist was critical and, in order to distribute the weight evenly, "buffer" cars were placed in between each of the flatcars carrying the booster rocket motor segments.  Each "buffer" car was filled with 50,000 pounds of concrete to improve handling of the entire consist.

One other interesting point - the rocket motor flatcars were covered with "clamshell" covers for protection during the shipment. The clamshells, themselves, were outfitted with various instruments and sensors to detect and record g-forces during the trip. Now, if only Lionel had made a working prototypical version of those !

@Steims posted:

How about these to use as black HVAC flex ducts?  They are from the tank train cars  

Looks like a good idea, I'm sure they could be adapted to fit.

Rockets by Rail: A Stellar Achievement

I guess I can dispense with the passenger car at the end of the train, it's not there on the prototype train.  Anyone need a 21" passenger car?

@Richie C. posted:

The real units were actually HVAC, providing heating, cooling and ventilation to keep the internal components at a constant, optimal 75 degrees Fahrenheit.

Given they were trying to maintain the 75 degrees throughout the trip I would guess it was a Heat Pump unit with an inverter.

In-progress model design of HVAC unit on booster.

The brake wheel must be removed. It is just press-fitted into the platform.

WOW, that's impressive Alan!  Talk about fast!   Are those end frames separate pieces?

I figured the brake wheel had to go, the prototypes don't have them in any case.  I might just dispense with all the brake wheels on mine.

@AlanRail posted:

I think the air ducts might need more length to droop more so that the car will make corners.

Wow...these are great sign me up!

@Bossman284 posted:

Wow...these are great sign me up!

I figured this topic might draw some interest.  This is the one big detail that is missing from the Booster train.

Those really do look great.  I'd be in as well if you decide to do a production run.  I checked my MTH set and they have the slots as well.  Just let me know what I owe...plus GRJ's fee as well for being the idea man.

Daryl

@DGuill posted:

Those really do look great.  I'd be in as well if you decide to do a production run.  I checked my MTH set and they have the slots as well.  Just let me know what I owe...plus GRJ's fee as well for being the idea man.

Daryl

Ideas are cheap, it's making them happen that runs up the cost!

yeh but GOOD ideas are worth it!

@DGuill posted:

Those really do look great.  I'd be in as well if you decide to do a production run.  I checked my MTH set and they have the slots as well.   ...snip...

Daryl

My two UP and one NASA (with a "transformer? load) have them.

@PRRMP54 posted:

My two UP and one NASA (with a "transformer? load) have them.

Your two UP what?  They didn't come with the Lionel Rocket Booster set.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Rockets by Rail: A Stellar Achievement

I guess I can dispense with the passenger car at the end of the train, it's not there on the prototype train.  Anyone need a 21" passenger car?

Supposedly there was a team of technical experts who monitored the cars and booster segments as they made the seven-day trip to Florida. I wonder if the passenger car was an add-on to the consist for the team to travel in.

@Richie C. posted:

Supposedly there was a team of technical experts who monitored the cars and booster segments as they made the seven-day trip to Florida. I wonder if the passenger car was an add-on to the consist for the team to travel in.

I looked at at least a dozen booster train videos, never saw a passenger car in the consist of any of them.  Maybe that was the old trains from years back that were bringing the boosters for the space shuttle.  The trains I'm seeing are apparently for the upcoming Artemis I mission.  I found a couple of videos about the shuttle boosters, they used the same cars it looks like.  However, no passenger car in sight.

I suspect that maybe those experts rode the train one or two times, perhaps in a passenger car, but then they just let the train do it's thing after that.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I suspect that maybe those experts rode the train one or two times, perhaps in a passenger car, but then they just let the train do it's thing after that.

You are correct that they rode it during the space shuttle era. However it looks like there was an accident and the passenger car was scrapped. Monitoring was done through other wireless means afterwards based on Trainorders.com website.  So no more passenger car after 2007.

Interesting read in link about recovery. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/cita...oads/20080032810.pdf

However these models were originally (from MTH) based on the space shuttle rocket train and that is why it had the passenger car. The SLS (Armetis) use the same boosters but with an extra center section. So the booster is big than the space shuttle ones. So could still use it for modeling the SLS but the booster itself would be slightly different. Just some information that I thought was interesting.

But I wouldn’t mind adding the heat pump system to one of my sets (from MTH but still the same as Lionel).

Warrier River  IS the name of the passenger car in the MTH set version

Yes Warrior River was the passenger car in the MTH set. After the accident, Hialeah ( in the Lionel set) was to replace the Warrior River but they decided not to use a passenger car at all after the accident according to Trainorders.

Not sure where the name for the car in the Lionel set came from.

@John Hon posted:

Yes Warrior River was the passenger car in the MTH set. After the accident, Hialeah ( in the Lionel set) was to replace the Warrior River but they decided not to use a passenger car at all after the accident according to Trainorders.

So, based on that comment, the use of the Hialeah car is not prototypical at all, even for the space shuttle booster trains.  That's one less car I have to tow around.   I see from that report that the engines and passenger car took the major hit, I think I'd be reluctant to ride that train after that as well.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I looked at at least a dozen booster train videos, never saw a passenger car in the consist of any of them.  Maybe that was the old trains from years back that were bringing the boosters for the space shuttle.  The trains I'm seeing are apparently for the upcoming Artemis I mission.  I found a couple of videos about the shuttle boosters, they used the same cars it looks like.  However, no passenger car in sight.

I suspect that maybe those experts rode the train one or two times, perhaps in a passenger car, but then they just let the train do it's thing after that.

The only video I could find was this one showing the last Shuttle delivery. It has two passenger cars - at least one of which was a press/VIP car for the milestone event.

Final Shuttle Booster Delivery

Also haven't found any photos of the passenger car on the old booster trains, but as I recall it was always there carrying booster contractor employees. At least up until the train actually did derail and injured several:

Derailed Train Cleanup Begins

And finally back to the HVAC units, there's this UP page with a good overview of the transportation process including a couple of sidebars about the units (with photos):

UP: Rockets by Rail

John

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Your two UP what?  They didn't come with the Lionel Rocket Booster set.

I have three (it turns out) UP four-truck flats with transformers. I got them used and two-railed. The NASA one (still three-rail) has a "transformer" that looks more like a package boiler to me. Anyway, one of the UP flats is scheduled to surrender its two-rail parts to the NASA flat.

SOOO

made some changes curved the front and revised the grill

That looks really close Alan!

Are those tubes flexible?

OK, the logo is a nice touch!

I guess for accuracy's sake, we'd probably want that diesel fuel tank that you can see hiding behind the HVAC unit.   I haven't seen a good picture of that one yet.

Geez GRJ - now you are inflating production costs!😊

@DGuill posted:

Geez GRJ - now you are inflating production costs!😊

That's me, the Budget Buster!   I should work in D.C.

Yep I did…with DISA - can’t spell DISAppontment without DISA.😎

tank

Alan,

Your latest rending looks fantastic! If you are making extras, please put me in for a pair.

Thank you!

Chris

LVHR

That's a great looking unit, and certainly a worthwhile addition to the Booster train!

added drain pipe, at least I think its a drain from the photo; other surface details shown in the photo,

I have no idea what they are !!

added some structure to the back of the AC unit.

@AlanRail posted:

added drain pipe, at least I think its a drain from the photo; other surface details shown in the photo,

added some structure to the back of the AC unit.

There would indeed be a drain from the HVAC, in A/C mode, I'm sure it generates quite a bit of condensate.

Dumb question, how did you come up with the spacing of the slots on the platform?  Do you have a set of these cars?

john

I took your top view picture from above into my modeling program. Then measured the actual width of the platform, placed a line of that length over the platform and scaled the platform down so the platform width fit the measured line.

Now I have a scaled top view picture to use to model the AC, did the same for the side view so I have scaled pictures in the modeling program. All of the slots ( except the brake wheel slot) are then scaled as well.

easy from there,

I expect that the drain pipe is really the exhaust from the engine driving the A/C compressor.  From Alan's rendering it appears that the fuel line enters on that side of the unit.

Jan

@Jan posted:

I expect that the drain pipe is really the exhaust from the engine driving the A/C compressor.  From Alan's rendering it appears that the fuel line enters on that side of the unit.

I guess we can all guess what it is.

Would other views help?

I thought some slot measurements would be handy...

Spacing in mm

Spacing in inches

better views does help.

Thanks  jwtex   for the better photo.

Wow Alan, lots of great detail on that one!  That almost looks like it will blow cold air!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You might have to dispense with the brake wheel, but I see the prototype doesn't have those anyway.

Correct. The prototype only has one brakewheel per car so the redundant brake wheels should be removed regardless of whether or not it is getting the HVAC upgrade.

design for the flexible hoses will be printed in flexible resin

First draft prints of AC unit hot off the printer:

Look great.  Put me down for 6   I have three rocket train sets that have been waiting a long time for these!

Bossman284; First thanks for the kudos!

Second, this is not a buy-sell forum so I cannot sell from this site.  OGR RULES!

Third, this is just a DRAFT print, final design still in progress.

Another fabulous project Alan.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I looked at at least a dozen booster train videos, never saw a passenger car in the consist of any of them.  Maybe that was the old trains from years back that were bringing the boosters for the space shuttle.  The trains I'm seeing are apparently for the upcoming Artemis I mission.  I found a couple of videos about the shuttle boosters, they used the same cars it looks like.  However, no passenger car in sight.

I suspect that maybe those experts rode the train one or two times, perhaps in a passenger car, but then they just let the train do it's thing after that.

Normally when a high value shipment the first one or two will have a large crew just in case anything comes up. After that the headend is on its own.

Alan, what would you change in a final design?  You should probably try to fit these to one of the booster cars to see if everything fits before doing any final changes.   I think the older MTH cars and the new Lionel cars probably have the slots in the same position.  Since I have both, I can try to measure and see if they're the same.

The prior draft prints were a little too big for the Rocket car.

so I resized them as this:

to make the painting easier I will print in two separate pieces that fit together

Can't wait to see the duct work.

I need the yellow color in spray paint form to match the rocket cover shell

@AlanRail posted:

I need the yellow color in spray paint form to match the rocket cover shell

Here's someone that makes it in spray cans.

https://www.myperfectcolor.com...c-armor-yellow-16-24

Given the fading that happens fairly quickly in the real world, anything close should be pretty prototypical.

$47  for 1  $64.77 for 2 spray cans

Uhh...  I didn't see the Batch Production Fee charge!   Maybe not the ideal place to buy that paint!

latest model build..... nothing glued or painted.

Pretty close to the prototype, they look great!

How do you paint something like those hoses?  I'm wondering how well paint will stick to the material.

Ok  thanks.

I can 3D design and print.... but I admit that I can't paint worth   S$%T !

I don't have the patience and hate airbrushing.

Sadly Alan, painting is my nemesis as well, if it doesn't come in a rattle can, I'm lost!

John

maybe someone kind will offer to paint them for us. 

I'm checking around for a painter that can paint them, I know it shouldn't be me!

@AlanRail posted:

John

maybe someone kind will offer to paint them for us. 

I think we can get them painted, did you ever get your printer sorted out after it crapped out?

yes new printer is working fine.

Did you ever make any progress on this project?

They're done but unpainted.

I have several sets printed of the 7 pieces as shown above: the AC unit; the support frame with propane tank; the 4 flexible connecting hoses; and the car hose connection.

I just do not have packaging design or cut yet.

Not sure if the tossing them in a box with peanuts will survive.

I guess they're more fragile than they look.