RS Lite from TMCC?

The only RS-Lite boards that work with TMCC serial data are the TMCC models from ERR.  The Legacy code RS-Lite boards require the 9-bit Legacy serial data to function.

Thanks for the confirmation. And those ERR versions of the lite boards are what they currently call “Railsounds Commander”, correct?

Now, here’s a convoluted thought. Let’s say I had a steam locomotive, and I had my heart set on a particular Lionel RS Lite Sound Set, not the ERR version, would it be possible to get and use a legacy receiver (what would that be called?) and the RS Lite board in the tender, while keeping the Cruise Commander in the locomotive? If they each had their own program/run switch and they were programmed to the same TMCC ID, would that work?

Thanks again

Yes, the Railsounds Commander boards are the RS-Lite board, just with TMCC compatible code.

As for the convoluted approach, it depends.  you could grab a Legacy RCDR and your choice of RS-Lite boards and give it a try.

Check out Bruk's Legacy document for wiring details: Legacy Bruk BEMC & RCDR Rev.2019.pdf

Figure 8 looks like what you're thinking about.  However, one fly in the ointment is the chuff won't be there, that's probably a sticking point.

The right way is to lose the Cruise Commander and do this with an RCMC and RS-Lite, they fit together as intended, and all functions will work properly.

That details in Bruk's Legacy document here: Legacy Bruk RCMC & RSLITE Rev.2019.pdf

I've done a couple of these upgrades, as have several other folks also using this combination.

Thanks for the references John. A lot to digest…

This is mostly a thought experiment right now, but with the RCDR approach, fig. 8, it looks like a Hall effect sensor is providing the chuff, no?

Since the documents mention that RCMC are specific to individual products, with the RCMC approach, do you just pick the RCMC board available with the closest match (particular diesel, steam type) to what you’re working with?

thanks again!

@christie posted:

This is mostly a thought experiment right now, but with the RCDR approach, fig. 8, it looks like a Hall effect sensor is providing the chuff, no?

Yes, but it won't be synchronized to anything but the sound.  If you had a fan driven smoke unit, there's no way to sync that to the sounds.

@christie posted:

Since the documents mention that RCMC are specific to individual products, with the RCMC approach, do you just pick the RCMC board available with the closest match (particular diesel, steam type) to what you’re working with?

The RCDR boards are also tied to a specific product.  I pick one with the features I want for the job.  For instance, I upgraded an MTH DD40AX that has two smoke units, so I selected a diesel RCMC that also enabled both smoke outputs for the job.  For my upcoming Class A upgrade, I'm using a steam board that has whistle steam as I'm going to be adding that in the upgrade.

John,

I’ve been looking at the docs, jumping to the Lionel support parts site, back to the docs, and it does seem a legacy upgrade is a good way to go if a particular RSLite board is a perfect match for what you want…

One immediate question is the”Motor Sensor Board” - what is that for? Is it a tach for the sound, or for speed control? Both? What is it?

Thanks,

Greg

@christie posted:

One immediate question is the”Motor Sensor Board” - what is that for? Is it a tach for the sound, or for speed control? Both? What is it?

Yes, that is so the main motor maintains the commanded RPM- AKA Cruise, AKA Odyssey.

In some cases, that secondary function might also send speed relevant info for sound, but primary function is related to motor control since it is connected to the main board.

That said, this is what separates the amateur from the pros, IMO, when talking about upgrades and why legacy upgrades are not super common, not something "everyone" does. Basically, in a nutshell, you need a chassis and motor arrangement such that you can install this sensor and use a Lionel flywheel, encoder ring, and mounted circuit board and sensor.

May require pressing flywheels off, not damaging the motor, soldering on new sensor board, mounting the new flywheel and encoder.

The tach sensor, as Vernon correctly states, is for the speed control.  However, since the Legacy system generates the chuffs electronically, the gear ratio of the chassis also comes into play as there is no adjustment of chuff timing like there is with DCS or older electronics that used a chuff switch linked to the drivetrain.

I do not recommend you start your upgrade career trying to do a full Legacy upgrade, that just might be a bridge too far.  The simpler DCS or TMCC upgrades are well understood and far easier to accomplish.

Yes, legacy may be a bridge too far. I have done a lot of TMCC upgrades, though. Until very recently, all were 10 years ago. ERR was in Santa Clara then, and I would go in and buy the boards directly. This month I found the boxes from those days, with a lot of unused boards and have in the last couple of weeks completed a couple of unfinished projects from back then (a Williams “GS4” and an FM Trainmaster). Right now I’m trying to sort out what I was thinking with regard to a postwar GG-1, and remembering why I bailed on a dockside switcher (getting the couplers sorted out seems insurmountable).

Anyway, once I finish with what I have on hand, I was thinking about doing something “special” with an extra k-line scale hudson, which is why I started wondering about all the recent advances. Since all the earlier generations of sound and control seem to be unavailable as parts, there’s not a lot of choice…

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yes, the Railsounds Commander boards are the RS-Lite board, just with TMCC compatible code.

As for the convoluted approach, it depends.  you could grab a Legacy RCDR and your choice of RS-Lite boards and give it a try.

Check out Bruk's Legacy document for wiring details: Legacy Bruk BEMC & RCDR Rev.2019.pdf

Figure 8 looks like what you're thinking about.  However, one fly in the ointment is the chuff won't be there, that's probably a sticking point.

The right way is to lose the Cruise Commander and do this with an RCMC and RS-Lite, they fit together as intended, and all functions will work properly.

That details in Bruk's Legacy document here: Legacy Bruk RCMC & RSLITE Rev.2019.pdf

If done a couple of these upgrades, as several other folks have also used this combination.

Stupid question John I am missing something, what is he trying to do ?

@christie posted:

Yes, legacy may be a bridge too far. I have done a lot of TMCC upgrades, though. Until very recently, all were 10 years ago. ERR was in Santa Clara then, and I would go in and buy the boards directly. This month I found the boxes from those days, with a lot of unused boards and have in the last couple of weeks completed a couple of unfinished projects from back then (a Williams “GS4” and an FM Trainmaster). Right now I’m trying to sort out what I was thinking with regard to a postwar GG-1, and remembering why I bailed on a dockside switcher (getting the couplers sorted out seems insurmountable).

Well, since you do have experience, it may not be a bridge too far.   It can be done, but it does take more work.  I've done a couple of steamers and a few diesels.

I had to laugh about the Docksider, I did one of those.  I managed to hack a DASH-9 long coupler and modify the chassis to put it in, but I decided not to try for a front coupler.  The coupler installation took me longer than the rest of the upgrade, it was a Royal PITA!

@ThatGuy posted:

Stupid question John I am missing something, what is he trying to do ?

I’m trying to learn what’s possible with currently available sound and control boards beyond what I’ve done with ERR commanders…

@christie posted:

I’m trying to learn what’s possible with currently available sound and control boards beyond what I’ve done with ERR commanders…

Makes sense now………….i am getting old…..lol

@ThatGuy posted:

Stupid question John I am missing something, what is he trying to do ?

Use a Legacy sound board with TMCC.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Use a Legacy sound board with TMCC.

Thanks

I’m wondering if a BEMC and RCDR could be used here. The BEMC has a hall effect sensor input.

@rplst8 posted:

I’m wondering if a BEMC and RCDR could be used here. The BEMC has a hall effect sensor input.

Not exactly the same thing. This is not using Hall effect.

"BEMC board does not support the Odyssey Optical sensor or 200 speed steps. It uses the similar technology used in Electric Railroad Company’s Cruise Commander
Series and DCC decoders available today. (EMF) The system monitors the voltage/amp draw from the motor and maintains it for that speed step. These boards are
pre-programed in the software for that specific loco/motor size."

This is encoderless and yes a way around needing a sensor and specific encoder flywheel, but also, then possibly specific to the electrical characteristics of a specific motor. When you stray and use different motor(s) or gearing.

So again, while yes, there is info on repurposing Lionel electronics- it's NOT plug and play, it's not universal, there is factory specific programming we have no access to modify. Again, Legacy conversions require a lot of knowledge, tons of research, and let's be honest- some luck in the unknown how it will react in a given loco.

Again, I can give an example where just such back EMF tachless programming bit me. I know that Lionchief Plus NW-2s https://www.lionelsupport.com/...-Plus-NW2-13-6-85061 used back EMF control boards. I bought one from Lionel parts, put it into a dual motor diesel, it then limited maximum speed. Why? Because 2 motors gave double the count so it thinks it's going fast. If you add load trying to slow it down, you can feel the speed feedback circuit increase motor power maintaining exact RPM. Again, speed control is working, it just thinks the motor is spinning fast and thus limits it.

Bottom line- that programming and motor specific detail, along with gearing resulted in that board not working the way I expected in different chassis.

Again, there can be problems, interactions and incompatibility that you may have to get creative or just change things out. It could get very expensive to do a conversion, buy all the parts, wire it all up, and then find out it doesn't work as you want and you are stuck- spending more money and more changes or compromises.

Lionel is not in the business of making easy upgrades- they want to sell you new ones.

@rplst8 posted:

I’m wondering if a BEMC and RCDR could be used here. The BEMC has a hall effect sensor input.

I've put the BEMC into a steamer, my SGL Pacific.  It actually worked really well, but I had to jump a couple of hurdles.  FWIW, I actually programmed my Chuff-Generator to simulate the the Legacy Hall Effect sensor behavior that the BEMC uses, so if you have the yen to use the BEMC in a steam upgrade, I have your solution for the chuff switch.

My SGL Reading Pacific Gets A Legacy Command Upgrade

@Vernon Barry posted:

Again, I can give an example where just such back EMF tachless programming bit me. I know that Lionchief Plus NW-2s https://www.lionelsupport.com/...-Plus-NW2-13-6-85061 used back EMF control boards. I bought one from Lionel parts, put it into a dual motor diesel, it then limited maximum speed. Why? Because 2 motors gave double the count so it thinks it's going fast. If you add load trying to slow it down, you can feel the speed feedback circuit increase motor power maintaining exact RPM. Again, speed control is working, it just thinks the motor is spinning fast and thus limits it.

I'd attribute your speed issues to something else than the two motors.  The way that back-EMF works is to give the motor a drive pulse, then read the back-EMF from the motor when the drive pulse is removed to see how fast it's going.

I'm pretty sure that the back-EMF for the ERR Cruise Commander is the same technique as is used in the BEMC, and the speed doesn't change if you have more motors on the Cruise Commander.  I've used a tethered bridge on the Cruise Commander and run four motors with it, two in the lead unit, and two in the trailing unit in an A-A configuration.  There was no change in performance running just the lead unit with the two motors over running the full configuration with four motors.

I believe that the Cruise Commander counts commutator crossings at very low speeds, but I'm pretty sure it just uses the back-EMF once it's running at any speed.

@Vernon Barry posted:

Not exactly the same thing. This is not using Hall effect.

"BEMC board does not support the Odyssey Optical sensor or 200 speed steps. It uses the similar technology used in Electric Railroad Company’s Cruise Commander
Series and DCC decoders available today. (EMF) The system monitors the voltage/amp draw from the motor and maintains it for that speed step. These boards are
pre-programed in the software for that specific loco/motor size."

This is encoderless and yes a way around needing a sensor and specific encoder flywheel, but also, then possibly specific to the electrical characteristics of a specific motor. When you stray and use different motor(s) or gearing.

So again, while yes, there is info on repurposing Lionel electronics- it's NOT plug and play, it's not universal, there is factory specific programming we have no access to modify. Again, Legacy conversions require a lot of knowledge, tons of research, and let's be honest- some luck in the unknown how it will react in a given loco.

I understand that the speed control of the BEMC is back-EMF and not the Hall effect sensor. However, I think the Hall effect sensor input on the BEMC could be used to generate synchronized puff and chuff. And the 9-bit serial data produced by the BEMC could be used to drive a RS-Lite board of your own choosing, which is what the OP wanted.

Thanks all for the feedback and info. Not sure how I’m going to approach that future Hudson project. I may get a couple of Legacy boards while we still can (!) and experiment.

Also thinking that, as always, diesels are way easier so maybe I’ll try that kind of Legacy or hybrid upgrade there first. Plenty of room inside those Williams FM’s for mistakes…

@rplst8 posted:

I understand that the speed control of the BEMC is back-EMF and not the Hall effect sensor. However, I think the Hall effect sensor input on the BEMC could be used to generate synchronized puff and chuff. And the 9-bit serial data produced by the BEMC could be used to drive a RS-Lite board of your own choosing, which is what the OP wanted.

The hall effect sensor on a BEMF equipped locomotive IS used to generate synchronized smoke and sound!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The hall effect sensor on a BEMF equipped locomotive IS used to generate synchronized smoke and sound!

Understood, I know the sensor IS used for that, but as you know it can be difficult to get a magnet at the quarters of a driver on a steam engine.

In your reply you said you used a modified version of the Chuff-Generator, but not knowing the details of the modification and that I didn’t read your link to the SGL Reading Pacific I wasn’t sure if the signal that the Hall Effect sensor emitted was special.

That’s why I said “the Hall Effect sensorinput could be used” rather than “the sensor is used”.

@rplst8 posted:

That’s why I said “the Hall Effect sensorinput could be used” rather than “the sensor is used”.

I didn't read your statement properly, I glossed over the input part.

I modified the Chuff-Generator to output a BEMC compatible waveform.  Also, the way the BEMC interprets the chuff input, a 2-lobe chuff with a SPDT switch can will give you 4-chuffs/rev as long as the on and off times are somewhat symmetrical.

If someone wants a Chuff-Generator for the BEMC, I can program one up for them.  It's not a standard product as I doubt they'll be a huge demand.  My initial reason for creating it was initially to equip my BEMC test set with a "Hall Effect" generator.  However, I've already used it in an upgrade with the BEMC board, and I think there'll be a couple more.

That is a sweet looking test rig.

@rplst8 posted:

That is a sweet looking test rig.

Thanks, last summer I build an RCMC and BEMC testset to make my Legacy diagnosis and repair a lot easier.  Next up will probably be the LCP2/LCP3 test set for the new Legacy stuff since 2020.

Building a Lionel RCMC Board Test Fixture

My New BEMC/RCDR Test Fixture