S Gauge Report from the York Show

I saw the Lionel/Flyer new GP-7 running on their display layout. It look better with the shorter trucks, but the trucks are just a tad wide. Performance of the locomotive was great, much better slow speed operation.

Still no word on a catalog from MTH?

Was wondering the same thing about MTH as their 2018 Vol 1 O scale catalog was released this week in time for York.

So far the only thing I've seen (and I only did a quick view) is on the TCA Netvision Video where Lionel waved a Flyer GP9 around at about 14:25.

From what I briefly saw of the MTH presentation, Mike was talking mostly about technology.

Rusty

One minute out of 27.  That's about right. 

All I can say is I'm glad I also model in other scales...

Come on Jerry P, we got 10 pages out of 88 in the last catalog .  Never mind your right that is close to a couple minutes out of 27.

Caldwell posted:

Come on Jerry P, we got 10 pages out of 88 in the last catalog .  Never mind your right that is close to a couple minutes out of 27.

Unless you are an S scale modeler, in which case you got Zero pages and Zero minutes.

jonnyspeed posted:

Caldwell posted:

Come on Jerry P, we got 10 pages out of 88 in the last catalog .  Never mind your right that is close to a couple minutes out of 27.

Unless you are an S scale modeler, in which case you got Zero pages and Zero minutes.

I think Lionel has taken themselves out of the running (Or is that walking?  Crawling??) for the S Scale modeler.  It appears that FlyerChief locomotives, rolling stock in the traditional vein and recycled O27 is the plan they're working with.  Under those parameters, they're making some pretty nice stuff. (Well, personally, I draw the line at the recycled O27...)

Even if the hinted at Legacy Berkshire comes to pass, I would bet there would be no scale conversion available, by either Lionel or a third party.

Pity.

Rusty

Caldwell posted:

Come on Jerry P, we got 10 pages out of 88 in the last catalog .  Never mind your right that is close to a couple minutes out of 27.

Cal,

On the Lionel side we see full length streamlined passenger and heavyweight cars, B60 baggage cars, 66’ mill gondolas, husky stacks, 50’ flats with 40’ trailers, F units, AC6000s, X31 boxcars, modern tank cars, woodchip hoppers, Pacific and Hudson locomotives.

All very nice for them.   We get a redesigned frame for the Geeps.  Yeah, the Berks are nice, and I have two of them.  I even have a Geep on order.   There’s not a lot new.  Even the Bluetooth technology transfers across their entire line.  I realize that Flyer is the step child of Lionel, but come on!  .  They design a nice waffle sided boxcar, but fail to make it the proper length and put it on the correct length frame.  The one used is nothing more than a sheet metal stamping that is also used on all the boxcars, stock cars and reefers.  I have to believe that a whole new mold for a waffle car costs more than a die for cutting a few more fractions of an inch of sheet metal.  Why not proper length?  50’ cars would be great, even though they’re hardly seen any more.  The reefers are nice, but they too are the same sheet metal frame and are the same height as the traditional Flyer boxcars, which are based on a PRR X-29 car which is smaller than other roads’ cars.

Some might feel that Lionel is trying, but I have almost given up on them.  The basic reason is that I just don’t need any more trains.  I’ve satisfied with what I have, and am enjoying it on my present layout, even if it’s isn’t all that finished.   I have a couple of scratch building projects in the pipeline, and may even get them finished soon! 

I think Lionel's also a little upset with us about the reaction to the trucks on the cylindrical hoppers (especially the first run,) which are fine cars otherwise.

Rusty

If they are upset they should sell of the flyer brand. And hell may as well license the legacy and Chief technology to whom ever buys flyer. You get a lump sum payment for the sale. And dollars for every locomotive produced.

But let's be honest. Mabey they don't want flyer and S to succeed.

Lionel is listening, though moving slowly.  If you want S scale to grow, you have got to encourage new people to become involved with S, if there is no expansion or a tiny market, the manufacturers will produce little or endless reruns.

From what I see, the Berks were well received (along with the Polar Express) and FlyerChief.  I don't think they expected some of it to do so well and if it continues, they will produce more new product.

Price point is way below O Scale and not much more than HO for Flyerchief.  It is also easy to set up and operate along with compatibility with varied systems.  This could and should drive the S market.

Constantly harping about systems and lack of product scare people away, who would expand the market and once again, the manufactures would dare to expand the product line.

Am I exuberant over the offerings?  No, but I see progress and if it continues, we'll all be happy.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, you get more flies with honey than vinegar.

Francine

Greekchief posted:

If they are upset they should sell of the flyer brand. And hell may as well license the legacy and Chief technology to whom ever buys flyer. You get a lump sum payment for the sale. And dollars for every locomotive produced.

But let's be honest. Mabey they don't want flyer and S to succeed.

I'm pretty sure Lionel wants the Flyer line to succeed.  If not, they might as well pack up the tooling and ship it off to Area 51.

The big problem as I see it, is they assume that Flyer and S folks in general are like the 3-rail O market and every time they just about get a handle on it, there's a change in management and it's back to square one.  

Currently, the emphasis appears to be on traditional style Flyer with improved electronics and mechanics and that's fine.  Plus, Lionel's decoration is second to none.

As Flyer people seem to outnumber us poor scale folks by about 6-7 to 1, it's only natural for Lionel to follow that market.  But, it's also interesting to note that somehow, American Models and the former S Helper Service figured out how to appeal to both. (The jury's still out on MTH.)

P.S. I still think my Flyer SD70's and ES44 converted to scale are really neat.  Once I changed the trucks & couplers on my Flyer cylindrical hoppers, they're also very nice cars...

Rusty

Remember that I interviewed Ryan Kunkle of Lionel last spring and he said this:

"As a scale-minded modeler myself, I can certainly feel their pain. In the end, it comes down to money. The S Scale market is a very small portion of a very small S Gauge market. To provide some reference, in talks with some of our major dealers, S as a whole represents a smaller market for them than HOn3. Does that mean there is no hope for new tooling? No. But offerings will be fewer and further between than in other markets."

You scale S guys are really lucky to get anything from my point of view.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Remember that I interviewed Ryan Kunkle of Lionel last spring and he said this:

"As a scale-minded modeler myself, I can certainly feel their pain. In the end, it comes down to money. The S Scale market is a very small portion of a very small S Gauge market. To provide some reference, in talks with some of our major dealers, S as a whole represents a smaller market for them than HOn3. Does that mean there is no hope for new tooling? No. But offerings will be fewer and further between than in other markets."

You scale S guys are really lucky to get anything from my point of view.

I still maintain that AM and SHS figured it out, (we'll just address rolling stock here) and Lionel was sooooo close with the cylindrical hopper.  "Missed it by THAT much" as Maxwell Smart used to say...

I'll admit, SHS spoiled us by offering well detailed Flyer compatible cars with user installed scale wheels, but we still had to supply our own Kadees.  However, I have no qualms buying a good lookin' AM car when it's only offered as Flyer compatible (like the upcoming S Fest cars) changing out the wheels and adding Kadees. 

Rusty

Well Bill, 5 years ago Lionel was absolutely committed to doing models of interest to the S scale crowd. Perhaps we just need to wait for this mgmt. team to get fired and hope the next is scale friendly?  Their catalog literally promised S wouldn't be ignored anymore (paraphrasing). Really? Yes, mgmt. change, different priorities, etc... got it.

In my opinion, between S Flyer and S Scale only S Scale had a CHANCE of remaining relevant in the future. Why? Because new hobbyists are not interested in toy trains. By a wide margin they want scale models. Once the crowd that grew up with Flyer and has that nostalgia passes on who is going to want it? Lionel has decided to make product for a declining market and squeeze it for what it's worth. At some point it won't make financial sense I'm sure.

As much as it pains me I think S is going to be the next OO. If you are happy with what has been made and don't mind networking with people to find the products you want then you might be ok. If you have a desire for something that hasn't been done your only option is probably going to be scratch building. 

I love the scale, but I don't love it that much. I've pretty much relegated myself to build a small switching layout or diorama to display my S scale and Hi-Rail collection.

Jonathan, 

I beg to differ with you, but the new Berks are scale, without separate handrails.  Not everyone wants scale wheels and all the associated problems with switches and derailments.  I have friends that have S Scale layouts and their work is exquisite with hand laid track and switches, although not many people have that much time and talent.

Once again, if you are going to grow this hobby, you need to make things:

1) affordable          (FlyerChief - runs on AC, DC or DCC with remote)

2) available          (Not presently a great variety of engines, track and accessories no matter         which manufacturer)

3) reliable          (runs without constant problems, including derailments, shorts etc)

4) as true as affordably possible to prototype.        (taking short cuts to lower price to allow sales to larger market)

If the base of people using S grows, you'll probably get your S Scale with everything scale on it, if not - oh well.

Francine

Francine posted:

Jonathan, 

Not everyone wants scale wheels and all the associated problems with switches and derailments.  I have friends that have S Scale layouts and their work is exquisite with hand laid track and switches, although not many people have that much time and talent.

 

 

No one has to hand lay scale track in S Scale if they don't want to. 

My mainline is all Code 100 flex track with Scenery Unlimited's Shinohra #6 turnouts,  There are a couple of hand-laid Old Pullman #5's in the yard (no longer available.)

My trackwork is hardly exquisite (straight, level lines and my track never meet, not even for coffee...) and derailments are very infrequent.  Usually, it winds up being a mechanical issue with a freight car. 

I haven't lost anything to the floor yet.

Diesels are AM, SHS and the Flyer SD's/ES's.  Steam is AM, SHS and a couple of brass chooches.

It's all been very reliable with little to no maintenance over the past 28 years. 

It still boils down however, that AM has been successfully selling to both markets for well over 25 years and SHS during their entire lifetime.  Few folks are aware that AM began as a scale only company.  Sales increased when they started offering Flyer compatibility.

Rusty