Scale Wheeled Flyer: D.O.A? Confusion and Discussion

 

Hi Rusty,

 

To whom was the message sent? Who responded? For much of the product line, the answer is correct for obvious reasons, but might not be so for the entire line (e.g., new diesels, new scale rolling stock) and maybe not for the longer haul. It might be worth seeking some clarification.

 

Just a thought.

 

Bob

I wonder how many scale wheeled u33cs and SD70s were ordered and pre ordered. I wonder if it was determined it was not cost effective to do? Ben

I used the standard Contact Lionel box.  The response is cut and paste, unedited save for removing my name, from the email.

 

There have been multiple rumors floating around regarding the wheels ever since the new O Gauge catalog came out with the Flyer section in back.

 

My question to Lionel was blunt and to the point: "Has Lionel abandoned scale profile wheels on future American Flyer products?" 

 

There's little room with this question to be vague with the response.  You've seen what the answer is, also direct and to the point.  It's very clear to me.

 

If this answer is not correct, then there is an internal communication issue with Lionel, and it's Lionel's responsibility for getting everyone on the same page. 

 

Lionel officials monitor the OGR board, it would be very easy for them to confim or deny the answer I received.

 

I fully expect that if a question is asked in good faith and the respondent doesn't know or is unsure, it is his/her responsibility for researching the correct answer before responding.  It's how I worked when I was in a customer service environment.

 

For me, this a particurly dissapointing development.  I'd been work hard on the Yahoo S Scale board trying to convince folks that Lionel's entry into the scale market is a good thing and to watch as things develop.  Now, it appears all that effort was in vain.

 

Rusty

 

I don't know, but S Helper Service manged to do it and be cost effective.  S Scale America still offers scale wheel conversions included with their freight cars.  American Models offers scale or hirail versions of their products.

 

Granted, us scalers were on our own regarding couplers for the most part, but we accepted that as the normal course for being in S Scale.  Kadees are cheap and easy.  It beat not having any products from these companies at all.

 

I don't think the added cost of wheels was that significant (In spite of th $60 price tag for a U33C set from the parts department.)  Lionel's likely gone through more expense developing and including DCC in the SD70's, which probably the majority of Flyer folks don't or won't be using anyway.  A DCC equipped locomotive without scale wheels almost doesn't make sense.

 

The theory I've been forming in the back of my head is that the upper management is looking for an instant return on investment rather than building a market or customer enthusiasm.

 

Rusty

Not always the font of correct info. I shall try elsewhere.

 

Thanks.

 

Bob

I expected this from Lionel. I believe it has more to do with the Flyer Fastrack turnouts that costs of the models. Why? It is very difficult to make good turnouts that will allow Flyer, HiRail, and Scale flanges to operate properly. It would certainly explain why the Turnouts have been delayed. They probably decided it isn't worth the effort when the bulk of their customer base is Flyer anyways. Add MTH into the mix and I think this is what you get. Honestly, this kind of start-stop mentality is one of the main reasons I decided to stop purchasing S products. I don't have these problems in HO on basic core issues like 'Will this train run on that track and when will they make turnouts'. I wanted Lionel to make a bigger HO train with the goodies of O gauge, but that isn't to be apparently. I think MTH changed the whole game plan for Lionel. They are probably wise to concentrate on Flyer products and let MTH serve the scale crowd. The scale crowd just isn't big enough to support both. Btw... I talked to MTH at the iHobby show and their Sd-70ace will have fixed pilots and scale wheels.

This is the Lionel I've come to know and love.  

 

Lionel makes toy trains for people who want to operate and collect toy trains....not scale models or model trains with a high degree of prototype accuracy. American Flyer wasn't a whole lot better in the day except they ran on 2 rails instead of 3. Fortunately, we have a current crop of mfgs/importers (SHS, AM, SSA and more) in S and O who are trying to raise the bar for accuracy and supply more realistic and accurate trains. Lionel is obviously not among them.

 

I don't think "S" will be the market Lionel is looking for as it will take more commitment than I think they are willing to give. This is borne out by their decision on scale wheels and the compromises I see on their Challenger and U33C.  They want to make toy trains and that is good for the toy train operator and collector....just not for the scale side of the hobby.     

 

I have higher hopes for MTH as they always seem to be on the leading edge.

 

Just opinion.

 

Butch

I couldn't agree more Butch. At one time I thought Lionel was really going do do something special with S. I don't believe that now. At least I think it will be far short of what I was hoping for. I think I'll hold on to my beta test U33's with DCC and scale wheels. It looks like they will be quite rare!

jonnyspeed wrote:

 

“I believe it has more to do with the Flyer Fastrack turnouts that costs of the models. Why? It is very difficult to make good turnouts that will allow Flyer, HiRail, and Scale flanges to operate properly.”

 

Not really…

 

Tom Stoltz

In Maine

I guess I'll say my enthusiasm was misplaced.

 

I never expected Lionel to be an S Helper or S Scale America kind of manufacturer of S, but I was expecting them to the scale side some semblance of a chance.  I also understand that S in general is somewhere around 80% Flyer/hirail and 20% scale.  If they would have tried over the course of 3-4 catalogs and decided against scale wheeled offerings, I'd be more understanding.

 

But it seems that Lionel has a hard time dealing with folks who aren't dyed-in-wool orange kool-aid drinkers.  They've never really been able to succeed outside the 3-rail O world.

 

I still have some hope that we will see some more scale-detailed freight cars that can be converted and I'll still pick up some suitable things for my HiRail affliction.  If we see cars equal to what they've offered in top of the line O, there is some hope. 

 

But, my purchases will not be as frequent as they would've been if there were scale wheeled offerings.  I'm certainly not going to advocate for them like I did when things started getting rough on Yahoo S Scale.

 

The ball's in MTH's court to attract the S Scale market.

 

Rusty

Folks,

 

I had an e-mail exchange with Remy Convery this afternoon to help clarify the situation. The U33C will continue to have the option of available scale flange wheel sets and, quote,

 

"the SD70’s are intended to have scale wheel options, if at all possible".

 

In addition, quote,

 

"for the Scale Cylindrical Hoppers we have developed a scale wheeled truck with a removable AF traditional coupler (it is separate from the truck) and attachment ‘pad’ on the frame for scale couplers. It will also have removable truck sides whereby the consumer can replace scale wheel sets with traditional Flyer ones. That amalgamation is the best approach given that either scenario involves additional expenditures by the consumer. This is the fairest way of providing a far ranging item that touches both realms at minimized cost."

 

Due to cost and complexity, the Y3a has hi-rail flanges, as cataloged and shown at York. The diesels and the all new rolling stock, according to above, are slated for an available scale option. It appears that Lionel is trying to satisfy a diverse set of customers in a cost-effective fashion. I do not see in any of this where the scale side is not being given attention.

 

Chill, guys.

 

Hope this helps. It should.

 

Bob

 

 

 

So, it would appear one end of Lionel does not know what the other end is talking about.  Judging by what I observe on the 3-rail side, this is not an unusual condition. 

 

Lionel REALLY needs to get it's internal communication act together.  It appears that nobody talks to anybody over there and they continue to allow their front line people to put out inaccurate information.

 

"Trust, but verify." -Ronald Regan 

 

I never thought I be quoting Regan...  I am officially a skeptic until proven otherwise by holding the product in my hands.  I'm not going to cancel any of my preorders, but for now, I'm going to leave it for someone else to try to spread the word to the scale world.

 

Hopefully, the upcoming MTH information will be more accurate.

 

Rusty

Gentlemen, This data is simply not true. We are not including any models of the Y3 with scale wheels at this time, however, there will be both hi-rail and scale wheel set variants for our U-boat and SD70ACe models. Thank you, Mike Reagan Director of Customer Service Lionel

Changing the title of this string for accuracy would be helpful for archival purposes and avoiding any future confusion.

 

Bob

I've altered the string title. 

 

I've also sent an email directly to Mr. Reagan regarding this and related issues.  He's out of the office until Oct. 30.

 

Rusty

Thanks for posting Bob.  It does appear Lionel is trying and their rolling stock will be scale compatible.  They make some really nice scale rolling stock in O but scale coupler pads and optional scale wheels was not available when I was in O 2 years ago.  

 

Butch