That article was well done! I always knew both TMCC and Legacy required three-wire grounded outlets, and now I know "the rest of the story"!  :-0

I'm not sure how you can sing,play guitar, and harmonica at the same time either...but it works.

I'm not sure this is much of a revelation if you've followed the TMCC Legacy forum.  THat being said, article George wrote was excellent. 

Thanks to the late Dale Manquen, this information has been around for years.  

http://www.trainfacts.com/trainfacts/?p=317 published in August of 2011.  

I'm sure the author of the OGR article did their own homework and likely spent much time on the story, but given the outpouring of grief over his recent passing and the years of service to the hobby that Dale provided, it seems odd, and a little disheartening to see the same information published under another author's byline in the very first issue after his passing.  

JGL

JohnGaltLine posted:

I'm sure the author of the OGR article did their own homework and likely spent much time on the story, but given the outpouring of grief over his recent passing and the years of service to the hobby that Dale provided, it seems odd, and a little disheartening to see the same information published under another author's byline in the very first issue after his passing.

You've GOT to be kidding me!

You actually think we would do something like that...on purpose? Good grief. Conspiracies are everywhere.   

Given the advance publication schedule for OGR magazine, George's article was in production almost a month before we lost Dale.

This kind of crap is TOTALLY uncalled for. An apology would be nice... 

JohnGaltLine posted:

Thanks to the late Dale Manquen, this information has been around for years.  

http://www.trainfacts.com/trainfacts/?p=317 published in August of 2011.  

I'm sure the author of the OGR article did their own homework and likely spent much time on the story, but given the outpouring of grief over his recent passing and the years of service to the hobby that Dale provided, it seems odd, and a little disheartening to see the same information published under another author's byline in the very first issue after his passing.  

JGL

Wow.  I just don't know what to say.  I agree with Rich.  The magazine is months ahead.  It was shear coincidence of timing.  

I understand that it takes a while to publish and the article was likely in the works for some time.  I do apologize for any misunderstanding over this or any suggestion that the article is in bad taste intentionally. I do think it is in bad taste Unintentionally, however.  

There is good information to be found in the article that will doubtless help many people,it just struck me poorly and I see no reason to censor that opinion.  There is no conspiracy theory, I just wanted to voice the opinion that I thought it was poor timing.  

Rather that be ridiculed for this opinion, I honestly expected, if any statement at all from the publisher, one something along the lines of "We are sorry for seeming insensitive in the timing of the article, however due to the publishing schedule it was unfortunately unavoidable.  Mr. Manquen's untimely passing has left us all saddened and we feel for the loss to his family and anyone that knew him.  That said, the article in question was researched independently, any similarity between his work and that posted in the article is purely coincidental."   Obviously I'm not a publisher or editor and the sentiment could be expressed better than I'm able to do.  

Even without his passing I feel my comment on this thread and article would have been "Yea, thats what Dale published six years ago.   Here's the link."  which seems to be the typical response on this forum from all the prominent members whenever anyone posts "new" information that is a re-hash of someone else's work.  As is so often said here "use the search function"  you'll find countless threads with the information and personal responses from Mr. Manquen detailing steps to improve the track signal and how it works.  

I am sorry if my statement came off as some sort of condemnation of the publishers , that was not my intent.  Instead I suppose it was more that I am still saddened by Dale's passing, even as someone that barely knew the man and that the article just hit a nerve in that sadness.  Honestly Rich's response is about as far from what I expected as possible.  

In summary, I don't think anyone did anything wrong in the publication of the article it's self, just expressing that it is nothing new.  I was struck by the timing, but understand that it is unavoidable due to the publishing processes in place at OGR.  I know that many of the folks at OGR are equally saddened by the loss of a great asset and friend to those in the hobby and don't for an instant think there was any intentional slight here.  I am however somewhat shocked by the response to my sentiment, as it is not what I would have expected.   I would have expecting something more along the lines of "sorry for the unavoidable poor timing", not " You've GOT to be kidding me!" in big bold letters.

JGL
Johngaltline@comcast.net

JGL, Now you're the abused party?

If you had something that accusatory and negative to "contribute" to a conversation, might it have been advisable to first  send a private note to Messrs. Melvin and Brown, as a courtesy ? Or is delivering a slap of condescension and an I'll-straighten-everybody-out profile irresistible, at times?

FrankM

Moonson posted:

Stunning article by George Brown in OGR Run 291 (April / May 2017), pp. 92-93, "The Real Story," giving a definitive and surgical examination of the TMCC / Legacy system(s).

"However, this traditional explanation from Lionel has a major flaw - it's exactly the opposite of the way the system was developed and the way it works."

(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Frank Mullen

Frank, what exactly is the news here? I have not read George's article but if it presents facts similar to Dale's this is not news. Its the way I understood how it works long before I joined this forum or read Dale's work.

What has Lionel been telling you that contradicts these explanations?

Pete 

Norton posted:

Moonson posted:

Stunning article by George Brown in OGR Run 291 (April / May 2017), pp. 92-93, "The Real Story," giving a definitive and surgical examination of the TMCC / Legacy system(s).

"However, this traditional explanation from Lionel has a major flaw - it's exactly the opposite of the way the system was developed and the way it works."

(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Frank Mullen

Frank, what exactly is the news here? I have not read George's article but if it presents facts similar to Dale's this is not news. Its the way I understood how it works long before I joined this forum or read Dale's work.

What has Lionel been telling you that contradicts these explanations?

Pete 

Norton/Pete, At the very least, it was informative to me. Also, it seemed to me by the very fact of the article being published that I was likely not alone in that lack of knowledge.

For example,  in my capacity as Layout Refinements, traveling around the country, it became repeatedly apparent to me that others were puzzled about how the system worked, how to get it to work consistently across their layouts, or how to have it operate uninterrupted, especially if there were catenary present.

Mr. Brown's information and analysis was a helpful explanation to me. Perhaps, it might be news to others, so I wanted to draw attention to it to be of assistance to those who, perhaps, only buy OGR occasionally or by happenstance.

My enjoyment was due to imagining such information, via, Mr. Brown, would be helpful - news - to others.

As far as the point made that its information has been available on another thread, everybody does not read the same threads, which is something patently obvious to me. Having a person's attention drawn to what might be valuable resource could be a good thing.

I am completely unaware of anything written on the subject by Dale and was not aware I had to perform research before making a laudatory point about something I read that was informative to me and might be so to others.

FrankM.

I agree another article on this is a good thing. No doubt OGR reaches many more people than Dale's webpage. I just didn't realize Lionel had another explanation on how TMCC worked.

Pete

This is the first that I have heard of Dale's passing! Was it posted somewhere on the forum? It is sad that the hobby has lost an asset such as Dale!

I won't comment on the other hot-headedness going on in this thread other than there is plenty of blame to be passed around.

Well there is much to be disheartened about in this thread.  I found one of the most disappointing comments was Hokie 71's " bunch of bozo academics".

For some reason in our culture we undermine and undervalue intellect and reason.  People that base decisions on data and policy are "wonks" or "geeks" and according to Hokie 71 academics are "bozos".  In my estimation this mentality is detrimental to our country's ability to remain a leader in a world becoming more complex and technologically advanced.

This should be a wake up call for magazines to stuff some of the fluff and start publishing some well researched useful information to help the hobbyists!!!

Big Jim posted:

This is the first that I have heard of Dale's passing! Was it posted somewhere on the forum? It is sad that the hobby has lost an asset such as Dale!

..........................

Link to OGR Forum posting.

-Dave

Big Jim posted:

 

I won't comment on the other hot-headedness going on in this thread other than there is plenty of blame to be passed around.

Amen.

That's all I'll say about this so I don't  get deleted like some of my recent comments have...

Mark in Oregon

Hi All,

I got the issue yesterday.  This was news to me and I have been running TMCC for over 10 years.  

I am also more puzzled now than I was in the past.   If the Legacy / TMCC signal is carried by the building wiring, I don't understand how it works on the G&O garden railroad.  The garden railroad has almost no building wiring under or near it yet the system works.  The few building wires that do pass under the layout are buried in the ground almost 5 feet below the O gauge display.  I would think that the ground, paving stones, etc., would shield the Legacy/TMCC signal from the layout.

It made more sense to me if the rails carried the signal with the dirt in the garden being the ground.

I suppose that this will always be a mystery to me.  I am glad that it works.  That is the bottom line for me.  

NH Joe

Joe, the ground is ground. The special wall wart used with the Command and Legacy bases is connected to this same ground. The green or uninsulated conductor in your house wiring and metal plumbing is also connected to this same ground. The other side of the signal is the outside rail. As long as the outside rail is not touching the ground the receivers will see a signal.

Pete

I was unaware of Dale's passing. I meet him on his one trip to York.

Scott Smith