Any “public” spotted in the dealer halls yet?
Judging by the parking lots and traffic in the aisles, how is the overall attendance? Is it higher, lower or the same as a typical April York?
Bill
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I saw 2 women in the Orange Hall without name tags. Do the "public" that are not "guests" get a badge?
The public got a green wrist band. I saw very few of them, and at about 10am, the public admission line was 3 people deep. The TCA line in the silver hall at the same time was nearly out the door.
The parking lot was filled about the same as in the past couple of meets. The halls were not crowded and lots of elbow room in the Orange and purple halls. I saw about 20 people with wrist bands indicating they were paying public. Maybe Saturday will be a better day for the paying public since it is not a work day.
An Ohio dealer l know said he saw a neighboring dealer sell an engine to a "public" for $10....(probably not a "Big Boy").
I was the first ever public member through the door! It was $14 compared to the renewal of $50 plus the $20 entrance fee. I couldn't be there all day so it worked for me. My son was very paranoid because people kept pointing at us. Lol. There really were a lot of people pointing and whispering! I only saw about 30 people with wristbands.
OGR's Jim Barrett had a wonderful conversation with a "public" father and son about building a layout. They had already purchased some Ross Custom Switches and we're seeking advice about how to bring their ideas to the train table.
Good sign...
I find it very amusing how we are referring to these fine folks as "the public" like they are some alien species. Come on guys!
Last year I went in October with a guest entry, and TCA hooked me for life! This strategy works for sure!
My wife went to Catholic school. I was a Public.....LOL
Every vendor I spoke with was very positive about the turnout and volume of sales. I didn't see many green wristbands on Friday.
Most venders I spoke with were selling their products. Traffic was a little bit busier than last April for the Friday morning.
I saw one person with the green band and my friend saw 3. Judging by the cars in the parking lot attendance seemed to be good but I agree a lot of elbow room in the halls.
I parked my car and there were two friends from the local N SCALE (!!!) club ready to walk the halls as the public. When I saw them again later in the day, it appears they put a significant dent in Scenic Express and other dealer's booths.
Attendance seemed heaver than in past springs. I wasn't in much of a buying mood but I head lots of positive comments from sellers.
Maxrailroad posted:I find it very amusing how we are referring to these fine folks as "the public" like they are some alien species. Come on guys!
You would prefer "Non-members"? Is "public" now on the "political correctness" list?
Joe Hohmann posted:Maxrailroad posted:I find it very amusing how we are referring to these fine folks as "the public" like they are some alien species. Come on guys!
You would prefer "Non-members"? Is "public" now on the "political correctness" list?
Yes, from this point forward, let's just refer to them as "The Great Unwashed Masses."
Oh.
Wait.
That might not help narrow it down... 
Steven J. Serenska
From the reports provided to me by a correspondent at York; public attendance was sparse. My solution to changing this would be to break York into two separate events and advertise it as such; one called the York ED/TCA Train Meet (as usual ) and the other called the York Gala Train Show. This would provide greater definition to the event, simplify the confusing admission rules and perhaps make it more profitable. The final attendance numbers should tell the story but they are no longer being released.
Well, if the public/non TCA members don't know about it, how can they show up???? Like I've said in the past, this was set up to fail from the get go. The Eastern division did NOTHING to get the word out. It was to humor the vendors/manufacturers who need to justify their expense going to this show and the lack of foot traffic on Saturdays. Now Eastern division can say, see we tried and it didn't work.
Dennis LaGrua posted:From the reports provided to me by a correspondent at York; public attendance was sparse. My solution to changing this would be to break York into two separate events and advertise it as such; one called the York ED/TCA Train Meet (as usual ) and the other called the York Gala Train Show. This would provide greater definition to the event, simplify the confusing admission rules and perhaps make it more profitable. The final attendance numbers should tell the story but they are no longer being released.
Actually, there is already a "second York show". It's called the Greenberg Train Show, which is held in the Utz building (Orange Hall) every January. It's well advertised, well attended (I've been to 3), and offers the public lots of trains and products all scales. No, Lionel and MTH do not attend, but that is their call.
superwarp1 posted:Well, if the public/non TCA members don't know about it, how can they show up???? Like I've said in the past, this was set up to fail from the get go. The Eastern division did NOTHING to get the word out. It was to humor the vendors/manufacturers who need to justify their expense going to this show and the lack of foot traffic on Saturdays. Now Eastern division can say, see we tried and it didn't work.
This event WAS advertised in a few markets by Eastern Division and by a couple of the manufacturers. Having said that, you have to crawl before you can walk, I can't imagine the Eastern Division had any intention of having 5-10,000 new people show up. I would think they would rather have fewer people go home with a positive experience than to have throngs of people that wait in long lines or some other unpleasant thing go home and report such. I suspect they will review what went right and what went wrong, make adjustments and probably advertise heavier for the fall meet. I would even think that they may wait to all out advertise until the 2018 dates. My $0.02.
Steve
Joe Hohmann posted:Dennis LaGrua posted:From the reports provided to me by a correspondent at York; public attendance was sparse. My solution to changing this would be to break York into two separate events and advertise it as such; one called the York ED/TCA Train Meet (as usual ) and the other called the York Gala Train Show. This would provide greater definition to the event, simplify the confusing admission rules and perhaps make it more profitable. The final attendance numbers should tell the story but they are no longer being released.
Actually, there is already a "second York show". It's called the Greenberg Train Show, which is held in the Utz building (Orange Hall) every January. It's well advertised, well attended (I've been to 3), and offers the public lots of trains and products all scales. No, Lionel and MTH do not attend, but that is their call.
Bingo - How many "general purpose" train shows can one venue support?
TCA runs a collector's meet, Greenberg runs a public show.
If there was truly support/demand for a second public show somebody would have noticed by now.....
ohhh boy.... did those "public" things come in by UFO? 
man they just ruined the secret club of "members only"
they probably don't even know the lingo or secret hand shake huh?
Dennis LaGrua posted:From the reports provided to me by a correspondent at York; public attendance was sparse. My solution to changing this would be to break York into two separate events and advertise it as such; one called the York ED/TCA Train Meet (as usual ) and the other called the York Gala Train Show. This would provide greater definition to the event, simplify the confusing admission rules and perhaps make it more profitable. The final attendance numbers should tell the story but they are no longer being released.
Maybe you should re-join the TCA so you can submit solutions like these directly.
Steven J. Serenska
TCA : 78-13181
superwarp1 posted:Well, if the public/non TCA members don't know about it, how can they show up???? Like I've said in the past, this was set up to fail from the get go. The Eastern division did NOTHING to get the word out. It was to humor the vendors/manufacturers who need to justify their expense going to this show and the lack of foot traffic on Saturdays. Now Eastern division can say, see we tried and it didn't work.
I hope that isn't / wasn't the case. I didn't see any public advertising for the event, but it seems to me that is absolutely required for a successful outcome.
George
It was busier Friday then Thursday Every vendor I talked to said sales were up.
It will take a few shows to see if the public will show up on a consistent basis so let's hold our negative opinions until we know the facts.
G3750 posted:superwarp1 posted:Well, if the public/non TCA members don't know about it, how can they show up???? Like I've said in the past, this was set up to fail from the get go. The Eastern division did NOTHING to get the word out. It was to humor the vendors/manufacturers who need to justify their expense going to this show and the lack of foot traffic on Saturdays. Now Eastern division can say, see we tried and it didn't work.
I hope that isn't / wasn't the case. I didn't see any public advertising for the event, but it seems to me that is absolutely required for a successful outcome.
George
I hope I'm wrong to. I want this to succeed
Btw the unwashed masses arrived Thursday afternoon. The first person I ran into in the Orange hall smelled worse then some cow dung along the roads getting to the train show.
Aparrently he did not see my pre York posts on bathing.
Maybe all those "public" folks signed in as one time guests, so they'd get badges instead of wrist bands.
Better yet, maybe most of them joined the TCA on the spot!
I the words of ROCKY BALBOA,
You telling me that this meet was open to the GENERAL PUBLIC or just to everyone
?
C W Burfle posted:Maybe all those "public" folks signed in as one time guests, so they'd get badges instead of wrist bands.
Better yet, maybe most of them joined the TCA on the spot!
Exactly Burfle!
As I walked around the orange hall two or three different times throughout the day on Friday I saw probably about 20 people with wristbands, but I did start to notice guest tags and eventually I saw an acquaintance I knew who wasn't a member and looked at his badge. He was a guest of Nancy. He showed up and went to the orange hall to enter through the "public entrance" and when he went to pay they offered the many different options that have been mentioned on the forum and obviously he took the onetime guest option as the best value to see the whole show.
Just arrived home. I left the Orange Hall about 1230.
I saw many more families with arm bands today than Friday. I engaged a few of them in conversation. They were having a wonderful time. Most had already enjoyed the wonderful layout in the Black Hall.
As I was leaving I saw group after group of families coming in with armbands.
We should all remember, this is the first time. It's really just a dress rehearsal. The main train time is the Fall. That's when I think we can really tell if this is going to work. I think we should give it a chance.
I am pleasantly encouraged. I look forward to seeing what happens in October.
Peter
My experience started on Wednesday when the waitress at Round the Clock Diner asked me about the public hours. She was planning on taking her 5 yr old and 7 yr old boys and was very happy it was now open to all.
Today I went back to Orange Hall after member halls closed to get some Sinbad glue and ran into friends from the Baltimore area, with their 7-year old, up for the first time because of the new policy. They were in awe. 7-year old now has his first locomotive, a Lion Chief Plus BNSF diesel.
I was encouraged like Putnam Division. Good move, Eastern Division TCA!
Did the dealers actually stay until 4 Saturday?
Saturday was DEAD...DEAD...DEAD! We started packing about 3:15, and the public was a no-show!
No major influx of people wearing wrist bands because we were already there wearing badges. Is there a potential to make Saturday York into an Allentown? They have a long way to go.
I hope it worked out great for the dealers and vendors. This is a very long week for all of them. I personally could not do it. I attend Thursday and Friday and that does me in. I hope they all sold thousands of dollars of items.
Rod Miller
From what I saw and heard from dealers for both days, MINIMAL impact. On an extremely light Sat. one needed to really search for scarce wristbands.
The Friday count of wristbands was, I believe, 109 total! That's hardly a dent in the show attendance!
Now that the meet is over, I think it's safe to say that the much-ballyhooed public attendance at this show was a total flop. It's painfully obvious that there was nowhere near enough publicity to get the word out about this.
109 people on Saturday? Really? Add two zeros to that number and we'd have something to talk about.
I wonder how much of the 109 were ex-TCA members versus being totally new?
gunrunnerjohn posted:The Friday count of wristbands was, I believe, 109 total! That's hardly a dent in the show attendance!
Does anyone have a count of the number of people who were "guests" of the registrar? I'm guessing that a lot of people opted for that choice, although I still doubt that the number was significant.
OGR Webmaster posted:Now that the meet is over, I think it's safe to say that the much-ballyhooed public attendance at this show was a total flop. It's painfully obvious that there was nowhere near enough publicity to get the word out about this.
109 people on Saturday? Really? Add two zeros to that number and we'd have something to talk about.
Will everyone who is surprised by this please raise their hands?
I hate to be cynical, but the lack of promotion makes it look like there wasn't a whole lot of interest in making it succeed.
Keep an eye on the TCA membership "thermometer". Maybe better, maybe worse.
It might not have helped that the meet was so late this time (I'm assuming due to holiday conflicts). May starts on Monday!
Weather was so nice the other days, it's easy to believe some people who might have considered coming out instead did spring time outdoor stuff. (Members or public!)
As for today, the other side of that coin might not have helped in the morning with the rain, but at least it ended after an hour or so.
-Dave
I saw a man & woman come into to orange hall with a green stroller with a dog in it. What's with that?
eddie g posted:I saw a man & woman come into to orange hall with a green stroller with a dog in it. What's with that?
The dog had a green band so he was good to go.
Does anyone really know how much or how little advertising was done? Facebook seemed pretty busy with the train folks talking about it. Although that's like preaching to the choir.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Saturday was DEAD...DEAD...DEAD! We started packing about 3:15, and the public was a no-show!
Shocker!
Even if they broadcast with world wide advertising, how many non train people do you think are going throw down the money for a weekend trip to York, PA??? During the week!
Hey honey, lets pack up the kids and head to York Pa for a toy train show...I promise it's even better than Walley World.
I think they need to go back to the Friday opening. Make Friday a member only event and on Saturday open the dealer halls for the general public. They are going to need to promote the event a whole lot better than they did for this meet.
Scott Smith
scott.smith posted:I think they need to go back to the Friday opening. Make Friday a member only event and on Saturday open the dealer halls for the general public. They are going to need to promote the event a whole lot better than they did for this meet.
Scott Smith
I like the Thursday noon opening. You'll never please everyone. Again how much or how little advertising did they do. I keep hearing they didn't do enough. Does anyone know all the avenues they tried?
If the show only generated 109 admissions from the general public (as reported above), I doubt the Eastern Division took in enough to break even on the dollars that were spent to advertise.
I think the show was very light. Thursday and Friday, not problems walking around. Hardly saw any of the green bands, sales and buying were ok from the folks I spoke too.
Hey, I got one of the 50 Lionel Cars, picked up a good number of Atlas O Steam Era cars, WiFi units for MTH and Lionel, and picked up my new TT from Mill House River Studios.
pdx1955 posted:I wonder how much of the 109 were ex-TCA members versus being totally new?
We know of at least one former member who attended because he posted to this thread on Friday (look near the top of the first page).
I would speculate that he wasn’t the only non-member in attendance as TCA dropouts are well aware of the York TCA meet so the lack of much advertising was not a factor to them. I doubt if any of these dropouts will rejoin if this “experiment” becomes permanent so they can’t be counted as potential new members which was one of the Club’s objectives of opening to the public.
Regards,
Bill
MartyE posted:scott.smith posted:I think they need to go back to the Friday opening. Make Friday a member only event and on Saturday open the dealer halls for the general public. They are going to need to promote the event a whole lot better than they did for this meet.
Scott Smith
I like the Thursday noon opening. You'll never please everyone. Again how much or how little advertising did they do. I keep hearing they didn't do enough. Does anyone know all the avenues they tried?
I like the Thursday opening as well. Noon is very nice for those of us who travel a long distance, it sure beats leaving at 4:00 AM.However we need to think about the cost to the manufacturers and to the dealers. The extra day means salary, hotel and meals for their employees. Sitting an extra day without financial benefit is enough to make dealers stay at home rather than sell at the show. There are several dealers that use to come to York that no longer attend. They didn't go out of business; they just couldn't justify the cost. Empty halls hours before closing is not going to make this any better.
Scott Smith
scott.smith posted:MartyE posted:scott.smith posted:I think they need to go back to the Friday opening. Make Friday a member only event and on Saturday open the dealer halls for the general public. They are going to need to promote the event a whole lot better than they did for this meet.
Scott Smith
I like the Thursday noon opening. You'll never please everyone. Again how much or how little advertising did they do. I keep hearing they didn't do enough. Does anyone know all the avenues they tried?
I like the Thursday opening as well. Noon is very nice for those of us who travel a long distance, it sure beats leaving at 4:00 AM.However we need to think about the cost to the manufacturers and to the dealers. The extra day means salary, hotel and meals for their employees. Sitting an extra day without financial benefit is enough to make dealers stay at home rather than sell at the show. There are several dealers that use to come to York that no longer attend. They didn't go out of business; they just couldn't justify the cost. Empty halls hours before closing is not going to make this any better.
Scott Smith
They could open Thursday at midnight...I'll still be there. I prefer Thursday but what ever they do I'll be there.
Teapest in a tempot
The extra day means salary, hotel and meals for their employees. Sitting an extra day without financial benefit is enough to make dealers stay at home rather than sell at the show. There are several dealers that use to come to York that no longer attend. They didn't go out of business; they just couldn't justify the cost.
A couple of thoughts:
1 - Change the days and hours in the dealer halls to Friday and Saturday only. Leave Thursday for member halls only. Dealer setup (no selling) could be all day Thursday.
2 - Member table holders feel the same impact as the dealers. An extra day of food and lodging. An extra day of vacation time burnt. An extra day of not stepping up to family responsibilities.
The show lost a lot of table holders when it went to three days. I think the show tried to make up for the loss by allowing people to get multiple tables.
Long ago I suggested making some tables available for one or two days. The person on the show committee with whom I was communicating said they were considering this, but it never happened.
Regardless, how many TCA members made the trip, had a bad time, and are sorry they went? I'd guess there aren't many. I wish I had been able to attend.
I think I am going to look on facebook to see whether there are any comments from the public.
MartyE posted:Does anyone really know how much or how little advertising was done? Facebook seemed pretty busy with the train folks talking about it. Although that's like preaching to the choir.
I live 25 miles north of Harrisburg and receive The Patriot News. In the Weekend Section of the newspaper there was NO MENTION of the YORK MEET. They usually put all the events of the area in this section of the paper and it was no where to be found. TCA grade for getting the word out IMO=D+. They did have the Local FOX 43 TV station there only on Thursday morning during their AM edition. I saw two clips, one in the Orange Hall at the Atlas booth and the other in the Black Hall at the modular layout. They need to put a coupon in the paper for the Public ala GUN SHOWs in Harrisburg for a dollar off admission or something like that. Promote the hobby.
You know. After all the fuss on this forum about an open meet, it didn't change anything. We left York Saturday morning but as for Friday I saw very few armbands. Lot's of forum debate and un-noticable change.
This is the only train show I know of that is not a Sunday show.
If I were not a TCA member or on this forum I would never know about York. And I am 30 minutes from the fairgrounds and 2 from the TCA museum. Curious how to know how the folks with green bands heard about the meet.
clem k posted:This is the only train show I know of that is not a Sunday show.
True, except for some one-day shows. I've sold at multiple day shows and Sunday is by far slower than Saturday. Early afternoon is the highest of the day, but nowhere as close as a Saturday.
Peter
FWIW: There was an ad in the Baltimore Sun newspaper.
This is the only train show I know of that is not a Sunday show.
The local show in Albany, NY is held on Saturdays.
It is well attended.
Craignor posted:FYI: The was an ad in Baltimore Sun Newspaper.
Well that is good to hear. At least it is something.
WftTrains posted:pdx1955 posted:I wonder how much of the 109 were ex-TCA members versus being totally new?
We know of at least one former member who attended because he posted to this thread on Friday (look near the top of the first page).
I would speculate that he wasn’t the only non-member in attendance as TCA dropouts are well aware of the York TCA meet so the lack of much advertising was not a factor to them. I doubt if any of these dropouts will rejoin if this “experiment” becomes permanent so they can’t be counted as potential new members which was one of the Club’s objectives of opening to the public.
Regards,
Bill
Well, I'm not going to feel too bad about our chapter's public show if a locale in the middle of"O-Gauge heaven" can only break just over 100 members of the general public on a Saturday. I'm going to answer my own question as based on our meet surveys, about a third just know to show up and really can't be classified as "general" anyways. Some of these are ex-members or potential members/very interested parties. We do a lot of "pavement-pounding" with flyers, print advertisements, and social media. With advertising its a good day if you can get a 2% response rate. FB definitely mirrors that based on the results from our paid ads. Of that 2% that mark "going or interested" only about a quarter of those actually make it to the door. The sharing and "buzz" on FB doesn't necessarily translate to people at the door. It takes a lot of volunteer time and $$$ if you want a lot of folks to show up - its much harder than sending out a form in a TCA publication. Sometimes it doesn't do much based on weather, other events, economic conditions, etc. We had a member this year donate a lot of monies toward graphic print ads covering the west and central portions of the Portland metro area, and frankly it would have been cheaper to hand out $5 bills to anyone that showed up.
Peter
I did not see a single wristband for the 3 days I was there. Well, OK, late Thurs, all day Friday, and until 11:30 on Saturday (flew in, so constrained by flights). But then again, I was looking at trains, not wrists.
WRT getting the word out, if you're at least a casual participant in our hobby, I know that CTT was talking about opening to the public in the months leading up to the meet, and I believe OGR did as well. If you're a family guy with small kids who is contemplating trains as a hobby, then I agree with the post above about putting a coupon in the paper. Oops; most young families don't read the paper, getting their news online. Still, wouldn't hurt.
Advertising is math. There are only three major factors.
1) Reach-Are they reaching the intended people that would be interested in going to a great train event?
2)Frequency-How many times did the target group see or hear the message?
3)Message-Does the message itself make the consumer drop their can of bear and say I'm going to that?
If the ED is going to have a successful advertising campaign they must make sure that all factors are met. I doubt any of three factors were met...it was wasted money.
Scott Smith
I know the museum is a National TCA thing but you would think they would have a huge advertising display/booth there all year to promote the show to the general public. The museum is one of the few places where the public (ok tourists) and toy trains collide. I never understood why they don't promote the hell out of the show there. It's like a hidden secret. They should show pictures and video of the meet along with trains running from the displays. Just ridiculous that they don't use it to promote it. All I see is how the library is being updated with new technology and stuff but they don't bother to promote the one show that could really bring new blood to the TCA. What am I missing here?
The Greenberg Shows, and Great Model Train Shows both send out small post cards to me advertising the shows (which are at the Maryland State Fairgrounds which is only a few miles away) seems like one 6 weeks prior and another a week before. Those post cards I think are a good way to do it, because I might stick that card in my pending file on my desk, and see it every day, or if I wasn't interested I could hand it off to a friend that might be.
Carl Orton posted:Oops; most young families don't read the paper, getting their news online. Still, wouldn't hurt.
Think Facebook.
I saw a lot of wrist bands in the Orange hall Friday.
You must have seen every one of them then, because there were only 109 total non-TCA people at the meet on friday! I only saw a handful, but I believe one of them actually purchased something at our booth.
My advice to the Eastern Division decision makers is what it has always been. Stop listening to jealous hateful people. Period. To them you can add those who work in corporate greed. The secret handshake imaginers, the camera people, the cell phone anglers, and the public meet demanders all got their way and to what end? They sent the TCA and ED down one rabbit hole after another so they could get their jollies off of the anguish of others. Now the new demand is for more publicity. Let every corporate entity in the Orange Hall join together and create a fund to pay for the advertising. How they respond will show us what they really think it's worth.
There's an old saying, "You need to spend money in order to make money".
You must have seen every one of them then, because there were only 109 total non-TCA people at the meet on friday! I only saw a handful, but I believe one of them actually purchased something at our booth.
Source?
Harry Henning went over to the registration desk and asked. It's not like it's supposed to be a secret.
The Greenberg Shows, and Great Model Train Shows both send out small post cards to me advertising the shows (which are at the Maryland State Fairgrounds which is only a few miles away) seems like one 6 weeks prior and another a week before. Those post cards I think are a good way to do it, because I might stick that card in my pending file on my desk, and see it every day, or if I wasn't interested I could hand it off to a friend that might be
In order to send post cards, you need a mailing list.
One manufacturer sent out Emails on behalf of the show.
Where were the other dealers with mailing lists?
BIGRAIL,
Like almost every club or organization, who is going to do it? The museum staff can barely keep up with the work they have now. Not that your idea is not a good one. But where do the extra funds come from to pay someone to do it? How about a dues increase !!!
At my table in the Silver Hall there was a guy complaining to the meet chairman that should we do this and we should do that. Some of his ideas actually made sense. But once again he was told he can't even find enough volunteers to enforce all the rules that we have now. No extra money for someone to do the work, no volunteers. What is one to do??
Paul Edgar
Like almost every club or organization, who is going to do it? The museum staff can barely keep up with the work they have now. Not that your idea is not a good one. But where do the extra funds come from to pay someone to do it?
I haven't been to the museum in a long time.
If it does not have a display about the TCA, then one should be created.
Now that the show is open to the public, there could also be a display about the York show.
Some folks might cry that it is unfair to favor one division. But does any other division have a similar show?
These displays should be able to get built the same way anything else gets done. Assign the work to staff. Let something else slip.
No extra money for someone to dothe work, no volunteers. What is one to do??
There was a very successful show run by the local TTOS division in my area. It was always the same people doing all the work. Lots of people ready to tell those folks just how to do it, but unwilling to lift a finger themselves. When that core group got tired of the work, the show folded.
it seems like the pervasive attitude was fling open the gates and hords of the public would stamped the place like a invasion,time will tell if it works,if not oh well back to the drawing boards,just think how long it took for pictures and cell usage,,,York wasn't built in a day,,,as the saying goes,,or was that rome,hummmmmm
bigo426 posted:My advice to the Eastern Division decision makers is what it has always been. Stop listening to jealous hateful people. Period. To them you can add those who work in corporate greed. The secret handshake imaginers, the camera people, the cell phone anglers, and the public meet demanders all got their way and to what end? They sent the TCA and ED down one rabbit hole after another so they could get their jollies off of the anguish of others. Now the new demand is for more publicity. Let every corporate entity in the Orange Hall join together and create a fund to pay for the advertising. How they respond will show us what they really think it's worth.
Nonsense. What you have said here is absolutely ridiculous. All your post does is stir up emotions where level-headed analysis is what's needed.
The issue here is nothing more than trying to make this show/meet become more relevant to the hobby as it exists TODAY. It isn't 1990, it is 2017 and the world has changed. The TCA cannot survive as a bunch of paranoid good ol' boys any more. If they don't do something to get young people interested and involved, the organization and this meet are doomed. The York meet is now the smallest show we do. And it just gets smaller and smaller.
In the train/trade show business, it is the responsibility of the show PROMOTER to handle the marketing and advertising. That's how every other show in the industry works. In this case, that's the Eastern Division of the TCA, not the dealers in the Orange Hall.
After this dismal April 2017 showing we are seriously considering doing this show/meet only once a year in October. It's become too small to be worthwhile.
OGR Webmaster posted:bigo426 posted:My advice to the Eastern Division decision makers is what it has always been. Stop listening to jealous hateful people. Period. To them you can add those who work in corporate greed. The secret handshake imaginers, the camera people, the cell phone anglers, and the public meet demanders all got their way and to what end? They sent the TCA and ED down one rabbit hole after another so they could get their jollies off of the anguish of others. Now the new demand is for more publicity. Let every corporate entity in the Orange Hall join together and create a fund to pay for the advertising. How they respond will show us what they really think it's worth.
After this dismal April 2017 showing we are seriously considering doing this show/meet only once a year in October. It's become too small to be worthwhile.
Dismal??!!?!? I had to park on the racetrack!
I was at the Eastern Division membership meeting Saturday morning. I believe the leadership was realistic. They were hopeful about public attendance, but they knew this was the 1st time and it is the spring......not a big toy train time. I(me) would call this a dress rehearsal for the fall meet.
I would cut the Eastern Division leadership a little slack. We'd all like to hit a home run 1st time up at the plate....but 1st you have to see the ball, and learn.
They moved on cell phones and photography (maybe slower than we would have all liked), but they did and they have shown a willingness to try new things and adapt.
Peter
Thanks Peter. Your assessment seems spot on to me. This is the first cycle of the open meet. I'm sure they'll need to tweak their strategy a bit before anyone can proclaim it a failure or success. As you said they are trying.
Paul Edgar posted:BIGRAIL,
Like almost every club or organization, who is going to do it? The museum staff can barely keep up with the work they have now. Not that your idea is not a good one. But where do the extra funds come from to pay someone to do it? How about a dues increase !!!
At my table in the Silver Hall there was a guy complaining to the meet chairman that should we do this and we should do that. Some of his ideas actually made sense. But once again he was told he can't even find enough volunteers to enforce all the rules that we have now. No extra money for someone to do the work, no volunteers. What is one to do??
Paul Edgar
Paul,
I do not disagree with what you are saying but consider this: there are a great many people who joined the TCA so they can go to York. If York were to someday be no more, I'm betting the TCA and the museum would go down with it. No amount of dues increase would save it. My point is the TCA and the York meet fates are tied pretty close together. The TCA can't afford to not step up and promote the show. BigRail
It seems that I’m one of the few members to not renew my TCA membership and attend as part of the public. I’ll give you a little insight into my decision. The main factor was cost. I only joined TCA so my sons and I could attend the train show. I didn’t plan on staying past 3:00-4:00 PM. I had to make a decision as to whether or not to join the club. It was simple, pay $72 for TCA admission (membership + admission) or $14 for public admission. It was an easy decision. In another thread, I mentioned that most of my past purchases have been made in the orange and purple halls. We built our layout two years ago and our interest are in modern diesels and technology. Thus, we determined our highest priority was to see the manufacturers and dealers in orange/purple for the 6 hours we would be at the show. I would have loved to walk through the member halls as there was an individual there selling some items that I probably would have purchased. But in the end, I decided to take that extra $58 and spend it in the orange hall for this particular meet. It had nothing to do with me being angry at TCA or anything of that nature. It was simply the cheaper option for this particular meet. There’s a good chance I may renew my membership for the fall.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Harry Henning went over to the registration desk and asked. It's not like it's supposed to be a secret.
Just curious, was the 109 figure based on the number of green armbands or the total that showed up at the Orange Hall as first timers. Many when they learned they could visit all the halls if they paid 22 bucks opted to head over to the Silver Hall for their badges. There were reports that it took 1 1/2 hours to get registered because the line was out the door.
While the manufacturers may have requested longer hours and allowing the public in, the motivation for the Eastern Division willing to try this was to hopefully produce more revenue. If it achieved this and they came out in the black then it was a success. Having extra cash will allow for more advertising for the next show.
Pete
OGR Webmaster posted:bigo426 posted:My advice to the Eastern Division decision makers is what it has always been. Stop listening to jealous hateful people. Period. To them you can add those who work in corporate greed. The secret handshake imaginers, the camera people, the cell phone anglers, and the public meet demanders all got their way and to what end? They sent the TCA and ED down one rabbit hole after another so they could get their jollies off of the anguish of others. Now the new demand is for more publicity. Let every corporate entity in the Orange Hall join together and create a fund to pay for the advertising. How they respond will show us what they really think it's worth.
Nonsense. What you have said here is absolutely ridiculous. All your post does is stir up emotions where level-headed analysis is what's needed....
In context with my previous comments on this matter I don’t believe my post was nonsense. The analysis is that in comparison, the Allentown show is an example of the best you can get as far as a train show in Pennsylvania. Many of the attendees at Allentown are already TCA members. Some non TCA attendees at Allentown are parents that are trying to keep the kids distracted. With that group, there’s not enough potential for worthwhile repeat business. Bottom line, Allentown is the example that illustrates the region is wrung dry - maxed out - and there is nothing more to be squeezed out of the proverbial stone. I think it is nonsense that corporations with a national perspective would consider descending on a locality such as York in Pennsylvania and expect to find a magic solution to the overall problem of declining interest in their industry. Perhaps with a New England style event in every state there could be a chance for a spark of a resurgence. TCA ED is not a promoter of a "for profit" event. If the "for profit" companies want to pitch in financially and create a better income stream at York, then they ought to take the responsibility of promoting that end of the situation.
OGR Webmaster posted:bigo426 posted:My advice to the Eastern Division decision makers is what it has always been. Stop listening to jealous hateful people. Period. To them you can add those who work in corporate greed. The secret handshake imaginers, the camera people, the cell phone anglers, and the public meet demanders all got their way and to what end? They sent the TCA and ED down one rabbit hole after another so they could get their jollies off of the anguish of others. Now the new demand is for more publicity. Let every corporate entity in the Orange Hall join together and create a fund to pay for the advertising. How they respond will show us what they really think it's worth.
Nonsense. What you have said here is absolutely ridiculous. All your post does is stir up emotions where level-headed analysis is what's needed.
The issue here is nothing more than trying to make this show/meet become more relevant to the hobby as it exists TODAY. It isn't 1990, it is 2017 and the world has changed. The TCA cannot survive as a bunch of paranoid good ol' boys any more. If they don't do something to get young people interested and involved, the organization and this meet are doomed. The York meet is now the smallest show we do. And it just gets smaller and smaller.
In the train/trade show business, it is the responsibility of the show PROMOTER to handle the marketing and advertising. That's how every other show in the industry works. In this case, that's the Eastern Division of the TCA, not the dealers in the Orange Hall.
After this dismal April 2017 showing we are seriously considering doing this show/meet only once a year in October. It's become too small to be worthwhile.
This mirrors some of the thoughts I've had regarding this event.
I can say - with great certainty - that the gestapo mentality that existed at this event - kept me from attending.
My uncle was an Orange Hall guy - the screw man.
As long as I can remember (until just a few years ago) - he would stop and stay overnight at our house on his way to and from the show. (He lived in Cleveland - his sister is my mother). Whenever the topic of me going with him was broached - he always brought up the SS Hall setup security - and overbearing rules - in short - he didn't want to be responsible for me - and you have to be a TCA Member...etc. So - I never went.
So - for sure TCA prevented me from being exposed to the more serious side of the hobby.
I guess it didn't help that my uncle could never take any pictures to show off the event to family, friends and fellow hobbyists. (too bad considering he was also a skilled photographer)
I have tons of York Show memorabilia - programs, name tags, maps, registration stuff, stickers - but no photos!
I live in Franklin County - just a county away from York - but watch Harrsiburg and Lancaster TV news - if there was a TV news story, I did not see it. Did the TCA buy any local TV time? Despite being "non-profit" - TCA lacks the trappings of a philanthropy - you can't expect free coverage.
It seems like the TCA/ED is still producing this event themselves - and while they pull it off - they clearly aren't event professionals - or promoters in any sense.
Hire some professional consultants - and do this right!
Dont re-invent the wheel - there are trade shows everywhere - a train show shouldnt be any different to organize for a competent promoter.
Does TCAED have actual 501c3 status - or do they just label themselves "non-profit"? I think everyone involved wants to profit - so perhaps a change of tact is needed here. I assume any TCA Members with tables are there to make money!
Disconnecting this event from the broader notion of TCA membership would be the best for everyone. TCA should just be another vendor - selling whatever it is they sell.
Quote from TCA ED website says it all - "We're growing and because we require membership in the Train Collectors Association to attend our meet, York has become the Number 1 recruiting tool for the Train Collectors Association." Well - at least they're honest.
York has exist to serve the hobby - not the TCA. They're bragging about signing up 51 people and 100 renewals - whats that - less than 10,000 dollars? Doesn't sound very successful to me...given the number of people that are supposed to be attending this event.
Having extra cash will allow for more advertising for the next show.
They advertised in the Baltimore Sun. According to what I found online, the Sun is the largest paper in Maryland. I could not find any information on their actual circulation numbers or the geographic location the paper covers.
I am not saying that the Eastern Division shouldn't do more advertising. But I do think that it is impossible for them to advertise in every paper within a certain radius of the show. They have to spend their advertising dollars wisely. It is going to take some work to determine exactly how.
I don't know whether the ED sent out press releases. I'd suggest sending out a carefully written press release that is publishable as a small feature story to every television station, radio station, daily and weekly paper within their target area.
Sending out such letters would cost under $1.00 each.
Hmm, I guess I have a different perspective as one of the public that attended. I usually go to the bandit meets but since the TCA was open I decided to forgo bandit and attend TCA instead on Friday, which I figured would be a quieter day. I live within a half hour drive so it wasn't a big trip for me to attend anyway.
I think it stands to reason that almost anyone who attends this will already be a hobbyist rather than someone just starting out, though I for one would be happy to see new people inspired by the hobby. I saw a couple other public entrants that knew of the show due to a local hobby shop. The person giving us the public information did a nice job welcoming us and making it friendly.
I would say it was confusing to figure out where to get the public ticket so more signage next time around stating "Go to Utz hall" would be helpful.
I enjoyed the modular layout in the black hall and threw some money down with OGR (great deals on building front pieces) and Scenic Express and Altoona Model works (had a great talk with the owner, really nice guy).
I was a bit starstruck to see people who's work I've admired on the forum after all these years of reading or folks like Mike Wolf in person. I also enjoyed seeing models in person built by Harry Hieke and some other industry greats
Benefit to TCA - $14 for my registration plus plenty of my cash to vendors there they would not have gotten plus marketing to me to check out new vendor websites and possibly have me as a new customer. Even if there were only a hundred new people there that is a hundred more customers. I agree with keeping the first day for members only and member halls only as members pay for that benefit. I think staying public to further help the vendors generate more revenue to cover costs and to keep cost of products low for us is a benefit.
C W Burfle posted:Having extra cash will allow for more advertising for the next show.
They advertised in the Baltimore Sun. According to what I found online, the Sun is the largest paper in Maryland. I could not find any information on their actual circulation numbers or the geographic location the paper covers.
I am not saying that the Eastern Division shouldn't do more advertising. But I do think that it is impossible for them to advertise in every paper within a certain radius of the show. They have to spend their advertising dollars wisely. It is going to take some work to determine exactly how.
I don't know whether the ED sent out press releases. I'd suggest sending out a carefully written press release that is publishable as a small feature story to every television station, radio station, daily and weekly paper within their target area.
Sending out such letters would cost under $1.00 each.
This pretty much says it all...
Further, i'd encourage everyone here to carefully separate the results of the changing hobby from results of the York meet. As a "younger guy" in my 40s in this hobby, I am starting to get scared that my collection will end up with no value when I reach the downsizing age. I'd really like to see more young people getting into the hobby because there are some great products and talents out there now based on what I saw in York.
I think the dealers like OGR and the hobby shops can get more for their travel dollar by having York serve the existing hobby crowd as well as serve the public crowd on Friday and Saturday.
As far as advertising, in the internet age I think newspaper and TV advertising is not going to reach the demographic that has the new customers. Kids and folks in the 20-30 age group are not reading newspapers as much and skip advertisements on their DVR'd shows.
I'd bet that just advertising on the main forum sites, like OGR, plus having internet vendors put a banner on their website would provide most of the advertising of the show needed. People interested or doing a little bit in the hobby are most likely reading about it on the internet. That might help TCA save some advertising dollars also.
I think Rich Melvin should check on what is going on the the Blue, Silver, Red & white halls. I doubt he checks those halls. Friday morning I could barely move thru the aisles in the Red Hall.
eddie g posted:...check on what is going on the the Blue, Silver, Red & white Friday morning I could barely move thru the aisles in the Red Hall.
That's good news about the Red Hall. What do you feel it might bode, Eddie G. ?
EmpireBuilderDave posted:......... I am starting to get scared that my collection will end up with no value when I reach the downsizing age.
If you have any belief at all that collecting trains is suitable as an investment of any sort at all, you have made a tragic error. Almost uniformly they decrease in value upon sale, not unlike driving a new car off the dealer's lot.
mwb posted:EmpireBuilderDave posted:......... I am starting to get scared that my collection will end up with no value when I reach the downsizing age.
If you have any belief at all that collecting trains is suitable as an investment of any sort at all, you have made a tragic error. Almost uniformly they decrease in value upon sale, not unlike driving a new car off the dealer's lot.
I think you're putting words into his mouth - concern about holding value - does not mean "investment"
And - you're ignoring buying on the used market...those are already discounted - and if you are clever and determined - and buy right - you can recoup most of what you pay - when you render your collection to the market.
Example: LIONEL MPC-era GG-1 stock seems to be up these days - I was snapping these up for 90-125 a few years ago - now it seems like, nice specimens with box are bringing closer to 225-250.
Example: LIONEL MPC-era GG-1 stock seems to be up these days - I was snapping these up for 90-125 a few years ago - now it seems like, nice specimens with box are bringing closer to 225-250.
I can agree that some prices have started to go back up.
But how does $225-$250 compare to the original street price?
From a relative newbie- been on the forum for about 8 months.
Was watching the build up to York with both anticipation and curiosity (No, I was not planning on attending), I must say that it doesn't seem worth all of the aggravating and expense (travel, hotels, meals, etc). As internet sales continue to grow, are train shows even relevant any more?
If the TCA is trying to bring in new members then this doesn't seem to an outsider like its the way to do it. I am far from new to the hobby either- I've had trains almost my whole life and I'm in my mid 50's now.
I am not looking to start a new argument here, just my 2 cents worth.
As a "younger guy" in my 40s in this hobby, I am starting to get scared that my collection will end up with no value when I reach the downsizing age. I'd really like to see more young people getting into the hobby because there are some great products and talents out there now based on what I saw in York.
Years ago, I had a train person tell me that we needed to get young people into the hobby so we'd have someone to buy our trains when we are ready to sell them.
Personally, I've always felt that money spent on trains should be considered gone. If you get something back when its time to sell them, that's good too. But I've never spent money that was needed elsewhere
Does TCAED have actual 501c3 status - or do they just label themselves "non-profit"? I think everyone involved wants to profit - so perhaps a change of tact is needed here. I assume any TCA Members with tables are there to make money!
I don't know the numbers or the laws. The TCA is legally a non-profit, whatever that means.
Are member table holders there to "make money"?
Yes, some of the member table holders are running hobby businesses and are looking to make some money.
Other folks are just looking to move out items they no longer want.
RSJB18 posted:From a relative newbie- been on the forum for about 8 months.
Was watching the build up to York with both anticipation and curiosity (No, I was not planning on attending), I must say that it doesn't seem worth all of the aggravating and expense (travel, hotels, meals, etc). As internet sales continue to grow, are train shows even relevant any more?
If you are going "just" to buy trains then York probably isn't your first avenue. If you are looking at it for both train buying and social experience then it would be more in-line with that. I could buy zero, nothing, nada and still have a good York.
Once again I will go back to advertising..if they only did newspapers then they reached an old audience. People 60 years old don't read the paper as much as those who are 70 and those over 80 read the obits every day. Are we wanting young families, then advertise on radio targeted at young families. Billboards would have been a good way to go as well. Newspaper advertising missed the target.
Scott Smith
Why, can I ask, is it only the EDTCA's responsibility to spread the word. As TCA members isn't it also up to us to do so as well? All the members, dealers, and such. I know we mentioned it more than a few times at the shop where I deal about the meet being public for the first time. We seem to be hammering the EDTCA pretty good but perhaps in addition we should look in the mirror at the other way folks can hear about it. LHS could easily put a sign on the counter. I imagine the EDTCA could send them some flyers and such but a little self motivation could have helped as well.
RSJB18 posted:Was watching the build up to York with both anticipation and curiosity (No, I was not planning on attending), I must say that it doesn't seem worth all of the aggravating and expense (travel, hotels, meals, etc). As internet sales continue to grow, are train shows even relevant any more?
You can't put a price on face-to-face meeting with folks, it's the primary reason I go to York. If it weren't for the social aspects, I wouldn't bother.
In the greater Baltimore area it was in competition with the Greatest Show on Earth's last run. I was there, me and 1000s of my kid friends who didn't look at any model trains...
Severn posted:In the greater Baltimore area it was in competition with the Greatest Show on Earth's last run. I was there, me and 1000s of my kid friends who didn't look at any model trains...
While I'm sure that's wasn't the only contributing factor, that is a really good point.
If that is the closest local venue that the circus is visiting for it's final run in the Baltimore/York/Harrisburg/Lancaster/etc. area, I can see where people would certainly try to go see the circus for one last time instead of going to a train meet.
-Dave
Well some friendly folks seated near us were from -- Wisconsin? Something like that. I was rather amazed ... but just an example of it drawing a good sized crowd -- full but not packed. Check the ringling bros website for further details -- there are 2 shows operating in parallel with a different theme... don't really know more about it than this...
My review: I enjoyed it and did not expect to.
Now back to the regularly scheduled program...
gunrunnerjohn posted:RSJB18 posted:Was watching the build up to York with both anticipation and curiosity (No, I was not planning on attending), I must say that it doesn't seem worth all of the aggravating and expense (travel, hotels, meals, etc). As internet sales continue to grow, are train shows even relevant any more?
You can't put a price on face-to-face meeting with folks, it's the primary reason I go to York. If it weren't for the social aspects, I wouldn't bother.
Agreed- can't put a price on friendships.
OGR Webmaster posted:bigo426 posted:My advice to the Eastern Division decision makers is what it has always been. Stop listening to jealous hateful people. Period. To them you can add those who work in corporate greed. The secret handshake imaginers, the camera people, the cell phone anglers, and the public meet demanders all got their way and to what end? They sent the TCA and ED down one rabbit hole after another so they could get their jollies off of the anguish of others. Now the new demand is for more publicity. Let every corporate entity in the Orange Hall join together and create a fund to pay for the advertising. How they respond will show us what they really think it's worth.
Nonsense. What you have said here is absolutely ridiculous. All your post does is stir up emotions where level-headed analysis is what's needed.
The issue here is nothing more than trying to make this show/meet become more relevant to the hobby as it exists TODAY. It isn't 1990, it is 2017 and the world has changed. The TCA cannot survive as a bunch of paranoid good ol' boys any more. If they don't do something to get young people interested and involved, the organization and this meet are doomed. The York meet is now the smallest show we do. And it just gets smaller and smaller.
In the train/trade show business, it is the responsibility of the show PROMOTER to handle the marketing and advertising. That's how every other show in the industry works. In this case, that's the Eastern Division of the TCA, not the dealers in the Orange Hall.
After this dismal April 2017 showing we are seriously considering doing this show/meet only once a year in October. It's become too small to be worthwhile.
I have been watching this thread with a great deal of interest and have a couple of observations. First, I would think it would behoove our webmaster to make his point without stooping to childish name calling. Making reference to long time TCA members as a bunch of paranoid good old boys is about as insulting and unprofessional as it gets and this from the CEO of OGR. If you want to make a point that's fine but kindly do it like a professional. Secondly, I attended the meet on Thursday afternoon as well as Friday morning and if the crowds in the member halls were an indication this April 2017 meet was anything but dismal. From the lay of the land it would seem that OGR is very interested in pulling out of York for at least one meet because our webmaster has made this statement before. Quite honestly, that would be fine with me.
I think the point is made about the failure to attract the public... but compared from last April 2016 to 2017 it was very busy!
Blue hall was very tough to get around Friday morning.
I believe a better plan is needed to attract the public. And that should include a more appealing facility....
C W Burfle posted:Does TCAED have actual 501c3 status - or do they just label themselves "non-profit"? I think everyone involved wants to profit - so perhaps a change of tact is needed here. I assume any TCA Members with tables are there to make money!
I don't know the numbers or the laws. The TCA is legally a non-profit, whatever that means.
Are member table holders there to "make money"?
Yes, some of the member table holders are running hobby businesses and are looking to make some money.
Other folks are just looking to move out items they no longer want.
Eastern Division has 501 (c) (7) status NOT 501 (c) (3).
Ron M
scott.smith posted:Once again I will go back to advertising..if they only did newspapers then they reached an old audience. People 60 years old don't read the paper as much as those who are 70 and those over 80 read the obits every day. Are we wanting young families, then advertise on radio targeted at young families. Billboards would have been a good way to go as well. Newspaper advertising missed the target.
Scott Smith
Good point Scott. We've been to Lancaster/ Hershey/ Strasburg many times. Seems to me that appealing to families would help pull more people in. The whole region is a great family destination.
OGR Webmaster posted:After this dismal April 2017 showing we are seriously considering doing this show/meet only once a year in October. It's become too small to be worthwhile.
Support!
I would hope that doing so would also strengthen member interest in the other non-ED regional meets....especially east of the Mississippi!...to have but one mega-York per year.
You know, sometimes I draw a bunch of analogies in my mind between York and the life-threatening medical issues encountered by extremely overweight individuals. A 'diet' would be good for both.
Oh, wait!....You said it's TOO SMALL?????
But that's just one man's opinion.....FWIW.
KD
Maybe some Thomas the Tank engine layouts would help ...
OGR Webmaster posted:"...After this dismal April 2017 showing we are seriously considering doing this show/meet only once a year in October. It's become too small to be worthwhile."
Please reconsider, Rich as OGR's presence would definitely be missed!!!
eddie g posted:I think Rich Melvin should check on what is going on the the Blue, Silver, Red & white halls. I doubt he checks those halls. Friday morning I could barely move thru the aisles in the Red Hall.
ThePUBLIC can't go in those halls, Eddie! So your point is meaningless.
Restricting the public to only part of this show/meet is another of the arcane rules that are present at York that are very counter-productive. It is confusing to tell the public, "You can go in this building, but you can't go in that one over there." I'm sorry, but that's just silly.
Combine that with the late afternoon PA announcements about not closing your booth until 6:30 pm when the show closes, then at 6:31 pm EDTCA staff are literally screaming at you to, "GET OUT...NOW! The show's over!" None of us manufacturers and dealers get treated like that at ANY other show we do.
OKHIKER posted:...Making reference to long time TCA members as a bunch of paranoid good old boys is about as insulting and unprofessional as it gets and this from the CEO of OGR.
What is insulting is being automatically suspected of doing something wrong or illegal when just setting up your booth for this show.
Case in point...
The dealers and manufacturers set up in the Orange Hall during the day on Wednesday and on Thursday morning. However, on Thursday we are not allowed to take any boxes or containers OUT of the building once we take them inside! Everyone has various boxes and containers that are part of the booth setup, but cannot stay in the booth during the show. To make space to work in the booth, they have to go back to the trailer, truck or whatever for the duration of the show. However, we cannot remove anything from the building until the show officially opens on Thursday.
Because of this paranoia about someone stealing something, getting an unfair deal before the show starts or whatever, the opening of the show on Thursday is a mess. When the doors open, TCA members are trying to get into the hall while other people are trying to take empty boxes, parts containers, hand trucks and other materials OUT of the hall! It makes for an interesting traffic jam at the doors for several minutes.
This rule about not removing boxes from the hall before the show starts is paranoia at its finest. It is also another situation that is unique to York. This NEVER happens at other shows we do.
Severn posted:Maybe some Thomas the Tank engine layouts would help ...
As much as I agree that we need to do our best to attract a younger demographic, the last thing I want the York meet to turn into is a glorified toy / souvenir show aimed at preschoolers. To me, the York meet has always been a premier venue and social gathering aimed at a discerning group of hobbyists, collectors and operators who look forward to buying and selling premier toy trains and related items that are rarely found in such quantities at other public train shows.
This is a large reason I am a TCA member and attend the York meets.
Thomas the Tank Engine - sparingly PLEASE!
C W Burfle posted:As a "younger guy" in my 40s in this hobby, I am starting to get scared that my collection will end up with no value when I reach the downsizing age. I'd really like to see more young people getting into the hobby because there are some great products and talents out there now based on what I saw in York.
Years ago, I had a train person tell me that we needed to get young people into the hobby so we'd have someone to buy our trains when we are ready to sell them.
Personally, I've always felt that money spent on trains should be considered gone. If you get something back when its time to sell them, that's good too. But I've never spent money that was needed elsewhere
I'd be curious to know if folks with the mindset of "younger guy " in my 40's, or a similar mindset, ever take vacations. If so, how do they feel about the money they spend on those vacations? You generally have no monetary ROI from a vacation, but you hopefully do get a return of relaxation, enjoyment, having fun, experiencing and learning new things, etc,, which are returns basically similar to those one enjoys from being involved with model railroading.
OGR Webmaster posted:eddie g posted:I think Rich Melvin should check on what is going on the the Blue, Silver, Red & white halls. I doubt he checks those halls. Friday morning I could barely move thru the aisles in the Red Hall.
ThePUBLIC can't go in those halls, Eddie! So your point is meaningless.
Restricting the public to only part of this show/meet is another of the arcane rules that are present at York that are very counter-productive. It is confusing to tell the public, "You can go in this building, but you can't go in that one over there." I'm sorry, but that's just silly.
...............
Changing that would likely end the meet even more quickly.
I'm sure many members who are not already running a business would not want to go through the hassle to obtain a PA tax/resale number (whatever the proper term for it is) so that they then get to add the joy of collecting taxes and filing with the state at each meet.
IIRC, there was a dealer who used to sell in the Orange Hall (maybe Moonson?) who has stated he needs to continually file even though he hasn't sold at the meet in several years. The PA taxman is apparently not a believer of not filing = not selling anything unless you formally file to say you didn't sell anything.
If members need to obtain tax numbers and file every meet to have a 6 foot table space (which has been described as what would be required to allow the public in), I'm out. I only tried selling at York because it's very easy. I never will be motivated to sell at any other meet for the same reason.
"Silly" or not, that's the reality for the member halls to a great extent, I suspect.
-Dave
J Daddy posted:I think the point is made about the failure to attract the public... but compared from last April 2016 to 2017 it was very busy!
I wonder how much the increase has to do with the improving financial portfolios of the demographic age group who attends . After all, with the stock market situation improving, folks have more disposable income and couple that situation with an ever growing confidence in and more favorable outlook on and less fear of the current economy, us "older" hobbyists are more likely prone towards spending more of what we have.
Would anybody care if the vendors like Lionel, MTH and OGR stopped coming to the York Show?
I can find out anything about the mfgs. from online sources and other venues if needed. But the dealers and private sellers I buy from I may never see if it was not for the York show.
I started coming to York before mfgs started coming and had a great time, if it was without them now I would not care.
I like seeing the mfgs and seeing what is coming but if they keep crying they can just stay home.
Dave
The ED would care. The fewer vendors the less income.
Pete
This is crazy weird. If mfgs. want to show up, fine. If you want the hobby too grow, you let everyone in. No discriminating. Such sillyness. Next
I just noticed that the Day Out with Thomas you may have no knowledge of came through Strasburg ending June 25 -- that's pretty close to the show's dates this year at least.
Perhaps this kind of thing could be tied into the model train show in the future?
Somehow Sir Topham Hat wandering the halls ... appeals to me.
Fair point on investment. To clarify my point I meant that I'd hate to see the hobby go away so that all my collection went in the trash because noone cared about trains anymore. I don't expect to make any money on the collection at this point, but I'd hate to just throw it away. And I'd hate to see fine magazines like O Gauge Railroading no longer have anyone interested in reading it, truly.
On the debate of member halls being open also, and this is just my opinion, the two halls I saw were overwhelming and I am already a train nut! Your average public person interested in the hobby would have plenty to see in the Purple Hall (Utz building). I am a fairly avid model railroader and I did not walk away from the show feeling like I missed anything, nor did I need to see anything else. I think member halls reserved for those truly dedicated and for those more rare items is certainly fine. One Purple hall and one Black hall with a modular layout or two is an awesome train show in my book.
I found this interesting....While at my LHS, we were talking about the future of the hobby. I said that I was surprised there were no posters or flyers for the York show. To which I was told rather bluntly....Why would we want to advertise a show that is a direct competitor of ours. I thought it was a show to see new stuff, socialize, and yes buying something you can't find elsewhere. But I guess I'm wrong. I could not go to York due to some health issues. I still like and support my LHS.
Here is my take on this. Three plus hour drive from NJ. traffic in the York area surprised me with its volume. There was no signs anywhere pointing out where to go so I spent 30 minutes on the registration line before be told in a snarky way you need to be over there. Over there also lacked signage but eventually after dealing with some older lady who was probably sitting on a thumbtack, I received the coveted green wrist band. Made my way around the permitted halls, spoke to some vendors who were very nice, spoke to one who should probably change his professional focus to bouncer. Picked up a few things that I could have picked up locally, left at 430 and encountered the same traffic on rt 30. My overall impression is this was a waste of time. Thanks for opening up some of the show, I am not interested in spending more money for access to the remaining halls. A suggestion to the leadership, if you want New members it starts with engagement. Everyone wearing the green wristband should have been targeted for a one minute welcome pitch sometime during the day. Setting up a booth but not having the folks at the ticket window at least point it out was IMO an error. I don't know what was intended but I don't think the desired goal was achieved.
OGR Webmaster posted:eddie g posted:I think Rich Melvin should check on what is going on the the Blue, Silver, Red & white halls. I doubt he checks those halls. Friday morning I could barely move thru the aisles in the Red Hall.
ThePUBLIC can't go in those halls, Eddie! So your point is meaningless.
Restricting the public to only part of this show/meet is another of the arcane rules that are present at York that are very counter-productive. It is confusing to tell the public, "You can go in this building, but you can't go in that one over there." I'm sorry, but that's just silly.
Combine that with the late afternoon PA announcements about not closing your booth until 6:30 pm when the show closes, then at 6:31 pm EDTCA staff are literally screaming at you to, "GET OUT...NOW! The show's over!" None of us manufacturers and dealers get treated like that at ANY other show we do.
OKHIKER posted:...Making reference to long time TCA members as a bunch of paranoid good old boys is about as insulting and unprofessional as it gets and this from the CEO of OGR.
What is insulting is being automatically suspected of doing something wrong or illegal when just setting up your booth for this show.
Case in point...
The dealers and manufacturers set up in the Orange Hall during the day on Wednesday and on Thursday morning. However, on Thursday we are not allowed to take any boxes or containers OUT of the building once we take them inside! Everyone has various boxes and containers that are part of the booth setup, but cannot stay in the booth during the show. To make space to work in the booth, they have to go back to the trailer, truck or whatever for the duration of the show. However, we cannot remove anything from the building until the show officially opens on Thursday.
Because of this paranoia about someone stealing something, getting an unfair deal before the show starts or whatever, the opening of the show on Thursday is a mess. When the doors open, TCA members are trying to get into the hall while other people are trying to take empty boxes, parts containers, hand trucks and other materials OUT of the hall! It makes for an interesting traffic jam at the doors for several minutes.
This rule about not removing boxes from the hall before the show starts is paranoia at its finest. It is also another situation that is unique to York. This NEVER happens at other shows we do.
Rich,
Your group does Allentown Pa.'s First Frost and Spring shows. What comes in Friday evening and up to 8AM Saturday cannot go out. PERIOD. Been that way for over 25 years.
Ron M
Severn posted:I just noticed that the Day Out with Thomas you may have no knowledge of came through Strasburg ending June 25 -- that's pretty close to the show's dates this year at least.
Perhaps this kind of thing could be tied into the model train show in the future?
Somehow Sir Topham Hat wandering the halls ... appeals to me.
A few years ago I took my wife, daughter, son-in-law and 2 grandchildren on the roughly 20 minute ride. It cost about $100, and makes Metro-North look inexpensive. If Sir Topham Hat wandered the halls, we should charge him for it.
Gerry
OGR Webmaster posted:ThePUBLIC can't go in those halls, Eddie! So your point is meaningless.
Restricting the public to only part of this show/meet is another of the arcane rules that are present at York that are very counter-productive. It is confusing to tell the public, "You can go in this building, but you can't go in that one over there." I'm sorry, but that's just silly.
Combine that with the late afternoon PA announcements about not closing your booth until 6:30 pm when the show closes, then at 6:31 pm EDTCA staff are literally screaming at you to, "GET OUT...NOW! The show's over!" None of us manufacturers and dealers get treated like that at ANY other show we do.
<SNIPPED>
Someone had their info fouled up. On the Eastern Division flyer cover page it states: "NEW: DEALER HALLS Open to Public Fri. 9:00 AM - 6:30 PM & Sat. 9:00 AM - 4:00 PM"
Ron M
I have been on a day out with thomas ... I did think it was not the best deal. But there were a lot of kids, the main point of my post.
OGR Webmaster posted:bigo426 posted:My advice to the Eastern Division decision makers is what it has always been. Stop listening to jealous hateful people. Period. To them you can add those who work in corporate greed. The secret handshake imaginers, the camera people, the cell phone anglers, and the public meet demanders all got their way and to what end? They sent the TCA and ED down one rabbit hole after another so they could get their jollies off of the anguish of others. Now the new demand is for more publicity. Let every corporate entity in the Orange Hall join together and create a fund to pay for the advertising. How they respond will show us what they really think it's worth.
Nonsense. What you have said here is absolutely ridiculous. All your post does is stir up emotions where level-headed analysis is what's needed.
The issue here is nothing more than trying to make this show/meet become more relevant to the hobby as it exists TODAY. It isn't 1990, it is 2017 and the world has changed. The TCA cannot survive as a bunch of paranoid good ol' boys any more. If they don't do something to get young people interested and involved, the organization and this meet are doomed. The York meet is now the smallest show we do. And it just gets smaller and smaller.
In the train/trade show business, it is the responsibility of the show PROMOTER to handle the marketing and advertising. That's how every other show in the industry works. In this case, that's the Eastern Division of the TCA, not the dealers in the Orange Hall.
After this dismal April 2017 showing we are seriously considering doing this show/meet only once a year in October. It's become too small to be worthwhile.
Rich is right. We must not always view the York show through the eyes of the hobbyist. We must listen to the concerns and appreciate the views of the exhibitor/seller. Vendors spend thousands of dollars to set up and sell at York and up to a week or more of their time. Transportation cost, fuel, lodging, meals, employee salaries and incidental expenses all factor in. These costs must be paid for before dollar one of profit is made. Sellers are not there for the fun of it but to turn a profit. Without sellers there is no ED meet. IMO the ED is obligated to do everything possible for their success. As for the public admission its very confusing for someone who is unfamiliar with York. You can only come in some days in two buildings. It is not 1990 anymore where the O gauge hobby had way more hobbyists in it. The demographics of those that buy the trains is rapidly changing . York really needs to be a public event or expect it to be half the size in a couple of years.
The decision facing the ED is that it will need to bend and be flexible regarding open admission. If they don't bend they will break!
RSJB18 posted:it doesn't seem worth all of the aggravating and expense (travel, hotels, meals, etc). As internet sales continue to grow, are train shows even relevant any more?
If staring at your computer screen gives you a sense of wonder, like a kid gets at Christmas...you are right...no use going to York.
Rich, What I said about the member halls had nothing to do with the public.
Lots of interesting perspectives. I think the ultimate answer is that the Eastern Division (and TCA, if it chooses to get involved) need to decide what they want York to be, and move forward accordingly.
My perspective is coming from 28 years as a TCA member (and not just so I can attend York), frequent visitor to York, travel over 500 miles each way (so not an ED member), spend a good chunk of change when I visit. Over the years, I've suffered through the "good old boys", the stupid rules, and heavy-handed security.
I come to York for the entire experience - layouts, vendor displays, new products, see rare and unusual items, talk with dealers and other members, find bargains, visit the museum and Strasburg, and get away from work for a few days. I enjoy most aspects of the event and hope it continues. All of these aspects are important - lose any of them and I probably stop making the trip.
There are more economical ways to buy trains, but I prefer to be able to see an item before buying it. I can have the social aspect locally without traveling hundreds of miles. York brings everything together in one place.
OGR's negativity is curious, considering the positive reports we're hearing from other vendors.
Is York a meet or a vendor show? What does ED "owe" TCA and the major vendors? How much input should non-ED members have? (Considering my effort and expense to attend, it's insulting to be told that as a non-ED member, my opinion doesn't count.) What is ED's obligation to the greater good of the hobby? It seems that York is critical to TCA, but we are constantly reminded that ED runs the event. And then there's that pesky tax thing - a wrong move on that will drive the little guys away and kill the meet.
Whatever decisions are made, one thing is certain - somebody's going to be unhappy.
eddie g posted:Rich, What I said about the member halls had nothing to do with the public.
I know that you are a member of the hard inflexible model railroad hobbyist community. I do not desire to get into the argument between forum members. All I will say is that Rich and the OGR staff attend York to promote their business. The hard inflexible model railroader is one to resist change and goes to York only for fun. I get that. I've enjoyed fun times there as well, On the other hand for spending good money to display at York, is Rich Melvin allowed to make a living? If so shouldn't ED provide the best pro-business climate with an entirely open meet or keep archaic rules in place designed to restrict admittance?
eddie g posted:Rich, What I said about the member halls had nothing to do with the public.
I KNOW THAT! That is precisely my point.
Telling me that a few member halls were crowded means NOTHING in the context of evaluating the public attendance at this show, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.
I applaud the ED staff/leadership for trying. We learn by opening our minds and trying/experiencing. So bravo to the ED for listening and trying.
As one who has promoted my own business, there is a difference between advertising and publicity. Advertising is something for which one pays for and publicity is FREE. Getting the TV news markets involved is most valuable. The general public loves a human interest story and nothing tells the excitement at York like seeing what goes on in the dealer halls ( like the Orange Hall ) through the lens of the TV news camera. Letting the public know that train lovers from all over the US and Canada have been coming to this huge model/toy train extravaganza for many decades! A TV camera pans in on all the big mobil campers parked on the grounds and News crews interviewing manufactures such as Lionel, MTH, Atlas, Bachman, custom builders, TCA members, retailers big and small, etc. This show has been a best kept secret and open only to TCA members and now you, John Q Public, can attend the party!! This is FREE publicity!
Also sending press releases to newspapers in both small towns and large communities in York, Harrisburg, Scranton, Wilkes - Barre, Baltimore/Washington and Philly and surrounding areas. Again human interest editors just may send a reporter to cover the York event and/or call the ED for interview for an article. Again, FREE publicity.
Why not contact local NPR radio stations to do an on air interview talking with York officials, or vendor ( or OGR Webmaster ) about the great story of York.
There is a great story here at York!! We train lovers come from every walk of life and every corner of north America ... and we come together not just to purchase new/used trains but to celebrate our great hobby at York. Now opening to the public, one of the greatest train shows in north America, if not the world!
The fellas who now run the Great Scale Train Show in Timonium, Md. have done an exceptional job of promoting that show and they honor and respect to vendors who participate too ( as well as attendees ) I know this because several of the regular vendors have told me this. Has the ED consulted with Scott G ( who run this show ) and his partners? If not, I'd suggest doing so. There's nothing to loose and York is not really competition because GSTS caters to all scales ( alot of HO )
I think that we all want to share the joys of model/toy train and grow this hobby for sure. I'm sure there are others here who will have more ideas on getting FREE publicity. Again congratulations to the ED for opening York to the public and may the lessons learned from this York event be instituted to make the next public admission York event more positive.
I for one did not get to attend York this year, due to scheduling conflicts from my end. I am a TCA member and plan on continuing to be for many years to come.
Pennsy418 posted:I found this interesting....While at my LHS, we were talking about the future of the hobby. I said that I was surprised there were no posters or flyers for the York show. To which I was told rather bluntly....Why would we want to advertise a show that is a direct competitor of ours.
That's a new one on me, every hobby shop I've ever been in now or in the past had flyers about local train shows and other events posted. MB Kleins even has Greenbergs show specials when ever they are in town, several of the employees told me that during the shows they see a serious up tic in customers and sales. Does your LHS have CTT and OGR and MR in stock? Aren't the ads in there in direct competition with them also? Hobby shops with that attitude aren't going to last very long.
Jerry
The hard inflexible model railroader is one to resist change and goes to York only for fun.
The vast majority go to purchase their desired gauge trains from both members and dealers.
If so shouldn't ED provide the best pro-business climate with an entirely open meet or keep archaic rules in place designed to restrict admittance?
One who goes to the meet to purchase from members and dealers is stimulating the business climate. Going to a meet to observe what a manufacturer is producing or planning to produce (with only a small portion displayed) without actually selling the item is a waste of attending a meet. It can be more easily observed in a catalog or online. Actually purchasing from a cottage industry manufacturer is a different story. Leave the member sellers as is. The fact of the sales tax will end their participation and relegate York to a Greenburglike show. No one wants that. Group all the manufacturers and dealers that wish to display/sell their wares to members and the public along with all the layouts together, in whatever building they can fit in. Those sellers that want to cater to members only or dislike the added hours can relocate to member halls.
York has exist to serve the hobby - not the TCA
I could not disagree with this statement any stronger.
The purpose of the Eastern Division's York train meet is to serve TCA members, not the hobby, and not the organization itself.
Exactly what that means isn't always clear.
One can argue that "growing the hobby" is necessary to serve TCA members. And one can argue that keeping the commercial dealers happy is necessary.
Its all a balancing act.
That's where only opening some of the halls came from.
Even though many of the proponents of opening the show to the public proposed opening the dealer halls only, now it's no good.
So which way to go.......
John tells us the sales of wristbands was low. Some say they did not see any, others saw quite a few.
I wonder what the count was at the end of the show.
I also wonder how many "guests" the show had. Was the number appreciably different than it was at previous shows.
York as someone has said is a victim of it's own success. Most local TCA shows don't even get noticed by the major manufacturers and dealers. Did I say local? Yes. York in it's earliest and basic form is still a local TCA show run by the EDTCA. They have been changing, albeit slowly with some of the thing folks have clamored for years to have like cell phones, pictures, and now some public access. For some that's not enough.
Opening the member halls will sure to change the whole feel of the event as well as the tax implications. You want York to go away faster? Let the PA tax man badger the members. This was the very first York, the very first that the public were welcomed to come into the dealer halls and some expected the dam would break and flood the halls with families and buyers. When it didn't, at least according to some, they were upset. I certainly think more time is needed before you write the public change off. April is not known for being a big train month.
Some vendors are talking about coming only once a year, well actually only 1 that I know of. That's a decision they'll have to make. I certainly think that each vendor will have to make that decision. The EDTCA I'm sure will evaluate the space they occupy and possibly move new vendors into those spots that will commit to both meets.
Again I think it's more than just the EDTCA that needs to get the word out. We all have a stake in this especially the vendors, many of which did a decent job on social media hying the show/meet. I'm sure the EDTCA will take what they learned, either decide to do more or possibly not, and move towards the fall.
I did see a few more "Guest" badges than normal. I also so the green bands. Before we all get bent out of shape perhaps we should all do a better job promoting the meet and see how fall goes. It was a first time. That's my take.
C W Burfle posted:.....................John tells us the sales of wristbands was low. Some say they did not see any, others saw quite a few.
I wonder what the count was at the end of the show.
I also wonder how many "guests" the show had. Was the number appreciably different than it was at previous shows.
I didn't try to take any actual count, but I did note a fair number of Guest tags walking by my table.
My observation may be biased by paying more attention this meet than some others, so unfortunately I don't feel comfortable claiming it was either higher or lower than previous meets, but I did note quite a few this meet.
Not specific to that aspect, but one thing I did note that I figured was likely to happen was one person with a Guest tag commented about the early packing up on Saturday. He did forget what time it was (he thought it was noon, it was 1 PM - it's not like any of us have never lost time like that ! ), but he was a little upset about seeing some people pack up before he got to view what they were trying to sell. (I have seen far worse than packing an hour before the close, even with Saturday being sparse (at least in Red) on Saturday)
-Dave
richabr posted:Going to a meet to observe what a manufacturer is producing or planning to produce (with only a small portion displayed) without actually selling the item is a waste of attending a meet.
I don't know about it being a "waste", but at the very bottom of MY list of reasons I go to York.
I've been in the hobby only a short time and this was my first York. An observation: Given the rarity and boutique pricing of most of the merchandise, this is clearly not a show for people new to the hobby. It is a meet for and by enthusiasts. In short: If you haven't drunk the Kool Aid, don't apply. But the show has grown too large for that audience alone.
In this respect York is neither fish nor fowl, and is in a way a victim of its own success.
There are many, many other shows that do cater more to the general public. That's where broad promotional efforts more naturally fit.
Now if vendors decide that the feverish collector niche market is worth pursuing they will pay the costs to do so at York (and many do). When their value calculation changes, they will pull out. I would think no matter what, some version of the enthusiast-focused show will continue.
Seems to me the TCA ED is in a tough position. Their impossible mission: Expand the number of attendees to support the size of the show, while at the same time preserving the special qualities of York that are so appealing to the members of this forum and elsewhere in the enthusiast community. And of course ANY CHANGES OF ANY KIND will be subjected to howls of pain from the longtime participants.
Another random observation, for York or more practically for other shows. Something I saw at one and only one booth in the member halls: A seller had combined a cheap and common PW Lionel loco, some less valuable rolling stock, a used transformer and a bunch of 027 track. Boxed together and sold for $149, with a replica Lionel user manual. This was the vendor's "entry level" offering for new trainiacs. And in my view anyone kicking the tires on this hobby, who just once picked up that heavy, detailed, all-metal loco would be hooked. Something to think about. And while I'm fantasizing: A stack of such kits (donated by sellers? Their closets are full of this stuff) given as door prizes might be a powerful incentive for newcomers to help develop the itch for more...
ogaugeguy posted:J Daddy posted:I think the point is made about the failure to attract the public... but compared from last April 2016 to 2017 it was very busy!
I wonder how much the increase has to do with the improving financial portfolios of the demographic age group who attends . After all, with the stock market situation improving, folks have more disposable income and couple that situation with an ever growing confidence in and more favorable outlook on and less fear of the current economy, us "older" hobbyists are more likely prone towards spending more of what we have.
Interesting thought given that the average household is carrying better than $17k in debt on their credit cards.
Interesting thought given that the average household is carrying better than $17k in debt on their credit cards.
$17K.... that is an interesting number. I wondered where the folks who present this sort of numbers get them from. So I did a little looking on the internet.
It seems the numbers reported vary widely.
Some of the calculations exclude people who don't carry credit card debit.
Here is a site that covers some of this: credit cards dot com site.
A seller had combined a cheap and common PW Lionel loco, some less valuable rolling stock, a used transformer and a bunch of 027 track. Boxed together and sold for $149, with a replica Lionel user manual. This was the vendor's "entry level" offering for new trainiacs. And in my view anyone kicking the tires on this hobby, who just once picked up that heavy, detailed, all-metal loco would be hooked.
I can tell you that a set like this would not be a quick sale in my area.
cplyons posted:I've been in the hobby only a short time and this was my first York. An observation: Given the rarity and boutique pricing of most of the merchandise, this is clearly not a show for people new to the hobby. It is a meet for and by enthusiasts. In short: If you haven't drunk the Kool Aid, don't apply. But the show has grown too large for that audience alone.
In this respect York is neither fish nor fowl, and is in a way a victim of its own success....
Possibly the most sensible post in this entire thread. Go back and read it if you skipped over earlier.
Joe Hohmann posted:RSJB18 posted:it doesn't seem worth all of the aggravating and expense (travel, hotels, meals, etc). As internet sales continue to grow, are train shows even relevant any more?
If staring at your computer screen gives you a sense of wonder, like a kid gets at Christmas...you are right...no use going to York.
Joe- I was merely pointing out that there are many other avenues to purchase model trains now then years ago. As I said, I am a newbie and would like to attend York one day. I am old enough to remember staring at trains at my LHS with my father. Setting up his pre-war Lionels was always a treat.
As GRG pointed out, catching up with old friends is priceless. For that reason I understand the show. From a economic standpoint however, its a different story.
Allan Miller posted:cplyons posted:I've been in the hobby only a short time and this was my first York. An observation: Given the rarity and boutique pricing of most of the merchandise, this is clearly not a show for people new to the hobby. It is a meet for and by enthusiasts. In short: If you haven't drunk the Kool Aid, don't apply. But the show has grown too large for that audience alone.
In this respect York is neither fish nor fowl, and is in a way a victim of its own success....
Possibly the most sensible post in this entire thread. Go back and read it if you skipped over earlier.
I agree. York is not a 'beginner' show, nor is it really a 'young and growing family looking to buy a train set for Christmas' kind of show. I would think World's Greatest Hobby or Greenberg would be a more 'entry level' show. They have their place. I don't really care for WGH shows. York has its place. I would like to see a younger demographic at York. Neither is for everyone and shouldn't be forced to be for everyone.
The only observation I would venture would be about not letting the public into every building. If part of the intention of this Meet was to be attractive to an ostensibly new audience and customer-base, I wouldn't say telling them there were places they could not go was particularly inviting. I wonder if some of that new "public" felt rather UNwelcomed by that restriction. Take into account the natural adventuresome spirit many people have, telling them to not venture forth into particular places they likely stood in front of at some point, seems unwise, from the standpoint of being attractive to new adventurers into model trains.
However, I wasn't even @York this time, so what do I know?
FRankM
C W Burfle posted:Interesting thought given that the average household is carrying better than $17k in debt on their credit cards.
$17K.... that is an interesting number. I wondered where the folks who present this sort of numbers get them from. .
Bloomberg business news about 2 days ago - the number surprised me but then very little does regarding the foolishness that can occur at the intersection of people and credit cards
Bloomberg business news about 2 days ago - the number surprised me but then very little does regarding the foolishness that can occur at the intersection of people and credit cards
Sorry, I did not mean that I wondered where you (MWB) got your numbers from. I meant outfits like Bloomberg.
Moonson posted:The only observation I would venture would be about not letting the public into every building. If part of the intention of this Meet was to be attractive to an ostensibly new audience and customer-base, I wouldn't say telling them there were places they could not go was particularly inviting. I wonder if some of that new "public" felt rather UNwelcomed by that restriction. Take into account the natural adventuresome spirit many people have, telling them to not venture forth into particular places they likely stood in front of at some point, seems unwise, from the standpoint of being attractive to new adventurers into model trains.
However, I wasn't even @York this time, so what do I know?
FRankM
Every new attendee was given the option to register in the Silver Hall which would allow them into every building.
Pete
Moonson posted:The only observation I would venture would be about not letting the public into every building. If part of the intention of this Meet was to be attractive to an ostensibly new audience and customer-base, I wouldn't say telling them there were places they could not go was particularly inviting. I wonder if some of that new "public" felt rather UNwelcomed by that restriction. Take into account the natural adventuresome spirit many people have, telling them to not venture forth into particular places they likely stood in front of at some point, seems unwise, from the standpoint of being attractive to new adventurers into model trains.
However, I wasn't even @York this time, so what do I know?
FRankM
Everyone wants the benefits of being in the club, without being in the club. The EDTCA made a pretty good compromise.
I have read this entire thread. Lots of ideas, complaints, etc. But I see no objectivity about the elusive "PUBLIC nor very much about why some had success and others did not.
Most of the public works, goes to school, etc during the week. They go to train shows on the weekend. And please, let's not pretend that we are serving the public when we close at 2:00 on Saturday. That is for our convenience, certainly not the public's.
If you want the public, forget Thursday, open Friday at noon and close Sunday at 4:00. Mimic those who successfully serve the public. Note that I said IF YOU WANT THE PUBLIC. Personally I am not too interested in a Greenberg type show and would not make the long drive twice a year for one.
I think that vendors need to ask some questions also. Is my product fresh or stale. What am I introducing that is new? Do I and my staff work to personally interact with those who attend, to our customers, and do we from the top down make the effort to meet them individually and say thank you? Or do we talk to our friends and ourselves and afterwards complain about how bad things were?
Many vendors reported success, some their best April York show ever. What did they do differently? If you are dissatisfied, ask them what they did to succeed. Maybe the fault is not all the missing people.
Bill Webb
Let all the halls be open a-la-carte... you pay at the door. But the total if you paid at the door for entry to every hall is simply greater than the club fee which gets you all of them.
Hours possibly should be Sat/Sun ... to 6pm on Saturday, but 4pm maybe on Sunday?
There's a simple reason that the public wasn't allowed in the member halls. There's no sales tax issue if you're in a club and selling/buying/trading stuff between members. However, if you let the public in, every one of the table holders would potentially have to have a PA Sales Tax License. Imagine the flap that would cause!
Hmmm..... reflecting on what GRJ says above, I can see where that would cause some issues (to be fair, others further up in the thread have mentioned the tax issue).
I wonder what the implications would be if EDTCA did what restaurants in "dry" areas sometimes do? That is, you "join" their private members club" which entitles you to purchase member-to-"member" sales of alcohol. Dunno how the state would view that, but if it works for alky....
Also, the Orange & Purple vendors *usually* didn't charge sales tax if you paid in cash. CC in hand, they'd take it, but add the tax. For cash flow purposes, I'm fine with that. But there's still tax not being collected.
Carl Orton posted:Also, the Orange & Purple vendors *usually* didn't charge sales tax if you paid in cash. CC in hand, they'd take it, but add the tax. For cash flow purposes, I'm fine with that. But there's still tax not being collected.
If the folks in the dealer halls get caught not collecting tax, they'll have serious issues! Lots of times at venues like this, the state will have people wandering around monitoring the compliance. I know at Henning's we were collecting the tax on cash and credit. It's a PITA, but better than a tax audit and huge fines and court costs!
I've still not quite understood the concept of paying tax on an old item that had tax collected on it at the original point of sale (like at Macy's in 1950) and when the original owner had played with it and handed it down to a favorite nephew who later decided to sell it to buy a bicycle that he has to collect sales tax on it?
Likewise, many years later when subsequent owners of the item decided to sell it to spend elsewhere that they have to collect tax again!
Grrrrrrrr
I don't know how many of you remember, but what killed the outside show at the Billy Budd (Holiday Inn) was the state tax the vendors had to pay.
The tax may be "included" in their price, but if you get audited by the state and haven't paid the tax, fasten your seat belt. The out of state entities may get away with it, but many of the folk in the dealer halls are PA businesses, there's no option for them.
OGR Webmaster posted:eddie g posted:Rich, What I said about the member halls had nothing to do with the public.
I KNOW THAT! That is precisely my point.
Telling me that a few member halls were crowded means NOTHING in the context of evaluating the public attendance at this show, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.
I have been attending the York show/meet now for fifteen years and I go to enjoy myself and savor the toy/model train experience. Unfortunately, when I read threads like this I think I just attended the meet from hell, especially when I read responses where the OGR Webmaster is screaming at another poster because he disagrees with the context of the individual's post. Witness the red highlighting and bolded/underlined statements in his post. Get a grip for God's sake. Also, I would think that an individual who supposedly possesses a high degree of business acumen the Webmaster should recognize the tax implications of allowing non members into the member halls. In my earlier post I referenced the fact that the Webmaster over the last several years has several times said he was thinking about pulling out of York because he thought it wasn't worthwhile for OGR and has constantly complained about what a poor meet/show it has become and now he is complaining about boxes being brought in and taken out of the orange hall. Additionally, he doesn't seem to care one iota about the success the member halls were experiencing during this meet/show. His focus is entirely on how he perceived OGR was treated and its economic bottom line regardless of how successful York may have been in overall terms. News Flash!!! York isn't just about OGR but about the entire toy train hobby including vendors selling in the member halls. If you want out then by all means go because I don' t think too many people will miss the whining, bellyaching and name calling.
Carl Orton posted:I wonder what the implications would be if EDTCA did what restaurants in "dry" areas sometimes do? That is, you "join" their private members club" which entitles you to purchase member-to-"member" sales of alcohol. Dunno how the state would view that, but if it works for alky....
That is precisely how it works in the member halls. You join the club, in this case the TCA, and sales tax is avoided in the club house, ie Blue, Silver, Red, and White halls. No membership and you can't get in.
Pete
I think not letting non-TCA members into every building is the only thing standing between a gradually declining TCA membership and a downward plunge in membership.
I'm sorry, but what is wrong with a meet drawing 10,000 or so members twice a year...people that are toy train lovers with money to spend? Maybe it will have to be October only. I can live with that.
Norton posted:Carl Orton posted:I wonder what the implications would be if EDTCA did what restaurants in "dry" areas sometimes do? That is, you "join" their private members club" which entitles you to purchase member-to-"member" sales of alcohol. Dunno how the state would view that, but if it works for alky....
That is precisely how it works in the member halls. You join the club, in this case the TCA, and sales tax is avoided in the club house, ie Blue, Silver, Red, and White halls. No membership and you can't get in.
Pete
I should have expanded. Issue a special "one day membership" for the "public" so that they can avoid sales tax hassles for the members in red/white/silver/blue.
Carl Orton posted:Norton posted:Carl Orton posted:I wonder what the implications would be if EDTCA did what restaurants in "dry" areas sometimes do? That is, you "join" their private members club" which entitles you to purchase member-to-"member" sales of alcohol. Dunno how the state would view that, but if it works for alky....
That is precisely how it works in the member halls. You join the club, in this case the TCA, and sales tax is avoided in the club house, ie Blue, Silver, Red, and White halls. No membership and you can't get in.
Pete
I should have expanded. Issue a special "one day membership" for the "public" so that they can avoid sales tax hassles for the members in red/white/silver/blue.
They do that too except its good for three days.
Pete
Carl Orton posted:Norton posted:Carl Orton posted:I wonder what the implications would be if EDTCA did what restaurants in "dry" areas sometimes do? That is, you "join" their private members club" which entitles you to purchase member-to-"member" sales of alcohol. Dunno how the state would view that, but if it works for alky....
That is precisely how it works in the member halls. You join the club, in this case the TCA, and sales tax is avoided in the club house, ie Blue, Silver, Red, and White halls. No membership and you can't get in.
Pete
I should have expanded. Issue a special "one day membership" for the "public" so that they can avoid sales tax hassles for the members in red/white/silver/blue.
No. A "temporary membership" devalues the regular TCA membership and makes a mockery of it. In addition, I like the fact that total strangers at York will take my check because I'm a member of TCA - will that level of trust exist if one can be a member simply for the convenience of attending the meet?
Mallard4468 posted:Carl Orton posted:Norton posted:Carl Orton posted:I wonder what the implications would be if EDTCA did what restaurants in "dry" areas sometimes do? That is, you "join" their private members club" which entitles you to purchase member-to-"member" sales of alcohol. Dunno how the state would view that, but if it works for alky....
That is precisely how it works in the member halls. You join the club, in this case the TCA, and sales tax is avoided in the club house, ie Blue, Silver, Red, and White halls. No membership and you can't get in.
Pete
I should have expanded. Issue a special "one day membership" for the "public" so that they can avoid sales tax hassles for the members in red/white/silver/blue.
No. A "temporary membership" devalues the regular TCA membership and makes a mockery of it. In addition, I like the fact that total strangers at York will take my check because I'm a member of TCA - will that level of trust exist if one can be a member simply for the convenience of attending the meet?
Well said. I totally agree. One time I bought a locomotive at York with a$100 down on it. Total price was $425. The seller asked me to sign a letter stating I would pay the remaining balance within one month which I did and then he let me take the locomotive home! Try that at a Greenberg show!!!
I did pay off the locomotive and I still have it today.
I was just trying to respond to the point that if non-members entered Red/White/Blue/Silver, then members would have to hassle with the tax. Concur on the points about the "brotherhood" of being able to trust other members.
Personally, I'd love to see it remain members-only, but I also empathize with vendors trying to justify the cost. Unless someone steps up with some novel solution, it's gotta be some way to draw in more of "the public."
Hudson J1e posted:Mallard4468 posted:Carl Orton posted:Norton posted:Carl Orton posted:I wonder what the implications would be if EDTCA did what restaurants in "dry" areas sometimes do? That is, you "join" their private members club" which entitles you to purchase member-to-"member" sales of alcohol. Dunno how the state would view that, but if it works for alky....
That is precisely how it works in the member halls. You join the club, in this case the TCA, and sales tax is avoided in the club house, ie Blue, Silver, Red, and White halls. No membership and you can't get in.
Pete
I should have expanded. Issue a special "one day membership" for the "public" so that they can avoid sales tax hassles for the members in red/white/silver/blue.
No. A "temporary membership" devalues the regular TCA membership and makes a mockery of it. In addition, I like the fact that total strangers at York will take my check because I'm a member of TCA - will that level of trust exist if one can be a member simply for the convenience of attending the meet?
Well said. I totally agree. One time I bought a locomotive at York with a$100 down on it. Total price was $425. The seller asked me to sign a letter stating I would pay the remaining balance within one month which I did and then he let me take the locomotive home! Try that at a Greenberg show!!!
I did pay off the locomotive and I still have it today.
I agree. I met one member and I stated that I was hesitant about purchasing a locomotive because they do not offer parts for it. He said leave my TCA no., take it home run it, then pay for it or return it... I have never seen that kind if trust before!
I gave him a check, and said sold! And of course it ran flawlessly.
Norton posted:Carl Orton posted:I wonder what the implications would be if EDTCA did what restaurants in "dry" areas sometimes do? That is, you "join" their private members club" which entitles you to purchase member-to-"member" sales of alcohol. Dunno how the state would view that, but if it works for alky....
That is precisely how it works in the member halls. You join the club, in this case the TCA, and sales tax is avoided in the club house, ie Blue, Silver, Red, and White halls. No membership and you can't get in.
Pete
Now this really cuts to the chase - and perhaps the best argument for being a TCA Member.
For 50 bucks, you can take advantage of a twice yearly tax free zone - just plan on spending at least $450 at both Spring and Fall meets.
$900 at 6%(PA State Sales Tax) - and you've recouped your cost of membership.
Roving Sign posted:Norton posted:Carl Orton posted:I wonder what the implications would be if EDTCA did what restaurants in "dry" areas sometimes do? That is, you "join" their private members club" which entitles you to purchase member-to-"member" sales of alcohol. Dunno how the state would view that, but if it works for alky....
That is precisely how it works in the member halls. You join the club, in this case the TCA, and sales tax is avoided in the club house, ie Blue, Silver, Red, and White halls. No membership and you can't get in.
Pete
Now this really cuts to the chase - and perhaps the best argument for being a TCA Member.
For 50 bucks, you can take advantage of a twice yearly tax free zone - just plan on spending at least $450 at both Spring and Fall meets.
$900 at 6%(PA State Sales Tax) - and you've recouped your cost of membership.
That's a really good perspective I haven't heard before.
Not that I have any plans to leave the TCA but it's nice to think I've already recouped my membership costs and I still have one meet left this year!
-Greg
Personally, I'd love to see it remain members-only, but I also empathize with vendors trying to justify the cost. Unless someone steps up with some novel solution, it's gotta be some way to draw in more of "the public."
I would be very surprised to learn that the PA tax department would let "one day membership" pass.
Also, let's remember that entering the York meet member halls is the one tangible benefit that the TCA offers. The idea is to increase membership, not to encourage people to let their memberships drop.
I don't think I've read or heard of a single complaint from member table holders about the volume of people.
Trainworx is reporting that they had their best show ever. I believe that John wrote that he was mobbed.
Maybe it has something to do with what they are selling.
Still waiting to hear about the final count for wrist bands and for "guests".
C W Burfle posted:I don't think I've read or heard of a single complaint from member table holders about the volume of people.
[...]
Still waiting to hear about the final count for wrist bands and for "guests".
I was pretty happy with the traffic around my tables in the Blue Hall.
I did see a handful of wristbands Friday night in the Orange Hall after the member halls closed. On Saturday, I saw a lot more walking around the grounds. I am also waiting to hear about the wristband numbers. I just hope it attracted enough to cover the costs of the advertising they did.
Andy
Most of this discussion is a re hash of last year and the year before and the year before that with the exception that the public was permitted in selected locations. Here are the metrics worth considering. Sales by vendor, more or less? Total number of attendees by TCA members and public. Compare to the previous three years and evaluate the trend. Total number of members gained by TCA? Membership trend within the TCA itself over the past 3 years. Post the numbers, evaluate, discuss, formulate a plan and act. My one and only question for the TCA would be where do you see the organization in 3 to 5 years if everything remains the same? Follow on question would be is that where you want to be?
I've been a TCA member for almost 20 years now, I love you the way it was, but I know things have to change and I think the way that the ED is doing it is fine. They definitely are trying. A little more advertising might be needed but that's only something the ED board knows if it is possible. I would love for it to stay the same, a members only meet but I don't think it can as the dealers who do help to make the york experience what it is, need to have it profitable for them too. I just hope a workable idea pops up soon cause i see from all the 5 pages of posts the rails are getting a little out of gauge.....
York did not just start out as a large show. From what I know it was pretty small when it started. This was just the first time the public was allowed in the dealer halls. If the folks who came as the public really enjoyed themselves and they tell other people who aren't TCA members about their experiences than maybe that number will grow over the next few years. These things take time.
Initially, I was against the idea of the public attending but after reading what Rich Melvin had to say about it I warmed up to it. With that being said, I am totally against the idea of letting the public into the rest of the meet. This will spell the end of the TCA and therefore York as well as thousands will drop their membership since a large number are members just to go to York.
As for OGR deciding not to attend any more or just do once a year, I am not happy about that but I understand it is a business decision and Rich has to do what's best for his business.
I think there is a big difference between OGR and say someone like TW Trainworks. With OGR, anyone can go to any train store that carries O Gauge trains and see their products. I am sure the store would carry the magazine plus some Ameritown buildings and some videos. With TW all a person sees is an ad in a magazine or the website and sometimes a small one at that. When a person sees what TW can do in a real life and talks face to face with the talented folks at TW they might be inclined to make a purchase or commission something to be built. With OGR most folks already know their products. I have been an OGR subscriber for 20 years, I have at least 20 of their videos and a couple of their buildings. I didn't stop by their booth this past York because there wasn't anything there that I didn't already have. Hopefully, a new video comes out in October. My point is I assume it is more important for someone like TW Trainworks (and others like them) to attend this meet where they can show off their products to folks who are dedicated to the hobby and who would not otherwise be able to see them up close.
Just curious, but does anyone know if the ED has to rent the entire fairgrounds or is it building by building? If it is the latter then perhaps they can condense folks into say one less building and cut costs therefore still making a profit on the entire event. Just thinking out loud.
Don't want to mess this thread up with any factual information. We got 5 pages going and I am beginning to see page 13 potential here. Especially with all the red letters, capital letters, and we got Eddie and the webmaster going at it.
So I saw a very official looking document on a vendor's table in the Orange Hall. Turns out it was a State of PA Transient Sales Tax License. A nice colored document in a plastic page protector sheet. Evidently that number is required by the EDTCA to get a table in the dealer halls. The vendor said it shortens the conversation to about 23 seconds when the State Tax people come through during an audit. (I have seen that type of document in a train show at another state. The explanation by that vendor was almost identical.) He also related the story of a dry transfer business that had their booth inventory, their vehicle, and the vehicle inventory confiscated for a down payment of what the State of PA felt was owed to them. Evidently member to member sales of a club are exempted. When the public goes into the member halls then the sales tax license, tax, etc, is required.
Don't really know and don't really care, it's not my state or my train show for that matter.
I have always thought the York show was 50x to 100x better than any other train show I've attended. I spent a ton of money at this York with very little on my shopping list. This York was to be just a vacation of idle time and talking/looking at trains. I'm thinking at most spending a max of $500. I went way over that. I didn't spend a dollar at the last public show I went to and I would have paid a little extra for things just to not have to haul all the way back home from York.
You gotta believe the EDTCA doesn't follow this forum very closely, or surely they would attempt to repair their damaged reputation. I still think it's a great train show, but it's not all things to all people, as these five pages have proven.
Better read fast, this surely won't stay up for long.
You gotta believe the EDTCA doesn't follow this forum very closely, or surely they would attempt to repair their damaged reputation. I still think it's a great train show, but it's not all things to all people, as these five pages have proven.
I am certain EDTCA leaders read the forum.
Here they cannot do anything correctly. And collectors are often scorned.
What is it they should be doing to "repair their damaged reputation"?
aussteve posted:You gotta believe the EDTCA doesn't follow this forum very closely, or surely they would attempt to repair their damaged reputation. I still think it's a great train show, but it's not all things to all people, as these five pages have proven.
Better read fast, this surely won't stay up for long.
I'm with CW, they don't have a damaged reputation. It will never be all things to all people. Some people just want it their way. I suggest Burger King for them. While it's always good to have an exchange of ideas and opinions in the end it is the EDTCA's meet/show and we are their guests. Nobody is holding a gun to any vendor to go.
Hudson J1e posted:York did not just start out as a large show. From what I know it was pretty small when it started.
The first York Meet was in 1969, and was held in one building, the current Blue Hall. I found no data on how many attended, but according to Ron Hollander's book "All Aboard", it was around 7,000 in the early 1980s. The TCA itself was started in the 1950s with about a dozen guys meeting in a NJ barn. Note the word "meeting".
Joe Hohmann posted:The first York Meet was in 1969, and was held in one building, the current Blue Hall. I found no data on how many attended, but according to Ron Hollander's book "All Aboard", it was around 7,000 in the early 1980s. The TCA itself was started in the 1950s with about a dozen guys meeting in a NJ barn. Note the word "meeting".
Pretty sure it was actually Yardley, PA ("Alexander's Barn"). But it is very close to the border.
-Dave
Actually it was Ed Alexander's barn (work shop) and it was in Yardley Penna. However, you could see NJ across the river from Ed's place. Close, but no cigar.
Buzz
Dave45681 posted:Joe Hohmann posted:The first York Meet was in 1969, and was held in one building, the current Blue Hall. I found no data on how many attended, but according to Ron Hollander's book "All Aboard", it was around 7,000 in the early 1980s. The TCA itself was started in the 1950s with about a dozen guys meeting in a NJ barn. Note the word "meeting".
Pretty sure it was actually Yardley, PA ("Alexander's Barn"). But it is very close to the border.
-Dave
Dave and Buzz, Do you know how many made up that first group. A dozen was a guess.
The photo of the original members shows 15 people.
Didn't mean to upset people with that sarcastic "damaged reputation" comment. I guess it was a little too subtle or maybe some people didn't read all of my post. 
. As long as it's trains then it's all good.
Joe Hohmann posted:Dave and Buzz, Do you know how many made up that first group. A dozen was a guess.
I did not know the number, so I'll assume Steve has it right.
I only remember the location name very well (not that I know where the actual barn/property was) because it's very local to me. My local division (Atlantic) even made a tinplate barn that they sold to fund raise for the convention 3 years ago.
-Dave
Sorry to repost same info, but I see a debate on opening of all halls to public. I'd restate my view that the public attendees are probably satisfied with the two halls, which I personally found overwhelming (in a good way). I'd like to see the public in the vendor halls again, and don't create a problem for members and member halls when your average public has no need for those additional halls.
If TCA starts getting complaints about the member halls only then look at it.
Also, there was someone at the door on Friday who gave a nice introduction to TCA so he may not have been there on Saturday as someone else posted here they were not welcomed.
I know I threw down cash to the nice woman at the OGR booth and had to stand in line to do it...
If the "members" hall was not required to collect sales tax because they are doing member to member sales then why do I keep seeing the same "members" in the same "Members" halls year after year. IMO, most of them are lower level dealers that buy and sell. Many will even give you a business card.
I do not profess to have all of the answers regarding the health of the York ED Meet, public admission, tax and all the rest but my view or an opposing view does not alter the demographics of the hobby and those that buy the trains. The decision about the way York runs must consider the rapidly changing demographics. For those that want it member only then make it so, but be content with a shrinking meet that will either be half size or may no longer be there in 5 years. The meet once drew 15,000 now it is about 10,000, a 33% decline. What does that tell you? Will the same declining audience that attends the meet year after year make the gate number grow or must the ED reach out a bit more. You be the judge.
For those that want it member only then make it so, but be content with a shrinking meet that will either be half size or may no longer be there in 5 years. The meet once drew 15,000 now it is about 10,000, a 33% decline. What does that tell you? Will the same declining audience that attends the meet year after year make the gate number grow or must the ED reach out? You be the judge.
Let's see..... open the show to the public and within a few years the TCA will be gone, having lost the financial support of those who only belong to attend the show. And the financial support of those who drop out because they cannot get tables without having a Pennsylvania tax number.
Not to mention that the show would turn into a "me too" show, no different than a large Greenberg affair. Don't need to travel 100's of miles for that.
Or shrink the show....... shut down the dealer halls. return the show to its old hours on Friday and Saturday only. If need be, reinstate the one table per member limit, and close another hall. Eliminate money wasters like ice cream socials. That should cut expenses. Not enough? ..... then the admission and table fees could go a bit higher.
If the "members" hall was not required to collect sales tax because they are doing member to member sales then why do I keep seeing the same "members" in the same "Members" halls year after year. IMO, most of them are lower level dealers that buy and sell. Many will even give you a business card.
Do you understand Pennsylvania's definition of "dealer"?
Setting up regularly at a biannual show does not make a person a dealer, any more then posting a few for sale ads on OGR now and then does.
Business cards?...... I had business cards when I was twelve.
Thank you C.W. That's exactly what I was going to say. He keeps repeating the same nonsense over and over.
C W Burfle posted:...Business cards?...... I had business cards when I was twelve.
You must have been one cool kid (!) 
C W Burfle posted:Or shrink the show....... shut down the dealer halls. return the show to its old hours on Friday and Saturday only. If need be, reinstate the one table per member limit, and close another hall. Eliminate money wasters like ice cream socials. That should cut expenses. Not enough? ..... then the admission and table fees could go a bit higher.
Show shrinkage in some way or form is likely a consideration that the E-Div hierarchy has at least informally discussed. But the financial impact would likely be large to the E-Div.'s management and in turn its members. However, continuing an event in its current form that loses money also carries a burden. It's obvious that the numbers have been down at the York meets as evidenced by the reduced number of needed halls or tables. Reducing the York Fairgrounds meet to a 2 day, once a year or non-dealer hall event or combination might incur the same fixed costs. The York Fairgrounds operation is not a Mom & Pop operation and the facility rental might be the same or near same if you rent two halls or 7 halls and spans the entire week versus a per day charge. It will be interesting to see the public admissions numbers for at least a 2 meet cycle.
A return to the traditional E-Div. member only trading/swap meet would possibly require a change to a smaller venue.
That turtle might not be able to get back in its shell... but if it could, it may not come back out for a long time.
I do not know the make-up of the original members who met at ED Alexanders place in Yardley, but I believe it to be about a dozen or less.
I was fortunate to live in Yardley in 1967/68 while attending Trenton State and stumbled into Ed's barn out of curiosity one Saturday afternoon. He was a kind and gracious host, giving me the tour of his office/shop/work area and display areas. Apparently he had a relationship with the Pennsylvania RR as a graphic designer, or some-such, as he showed me several Oscale models he had done for them of various passenger car and GG1 paint schemes. If I remember correctly he also had, what appeared to me, a long chicken-coop like building that contained a vast collection of Oscale cars and equipment. That was over 50 years ago, so I am not sure how accurate that part is.
As a young man, and recently delving into HO scale PRR equipment I was extremely impressed by Ed's Oscale display/collection. I do not recall seeing any "toy train" pieces. These must have been in the house, or in another part of the "barn".
Just for my own clarification of the facts, anyone who can shed further light on these vague recollections would be greatly encouraged to do so. Thanks!
Buzz
Reducing the York Fairgrounds meet to a 2 day, once a year or non-dealer hall event or combination might incur the same fixed costs.
Very unlikely. I doubt that the Eastern Division is paying flat rate for all those security guards. Even if the fair grounds rent was the same, the reduction in personnel costs would probably save enough to take the show out of the red.
Which is all the Eastern Division really needs to do. Contrary to some people's opinion, the Eastern Division's "business" is to provide services to Eastern Division members, and to the general TCA population. It needs to cover expenses. It really does not need to make a profit.
A return to the traditional E-Div. member only trading/swap meet would possibly require a change to a smaller venue.
Not quite what I suggested. I suggested a TCA members only show, not ED members only.
To be clear, I think the best course of action is to do a few more shows with just the dealer halls open to the public. My other suggestions are just alternatives. The Eastern Division needs to do better with their advertising and publicity. The dealers that are able need to do a better job of getting the word out. They are TCA members too, and they benefit from increased attendance. They can pitch in. If they don't think so, they can stay home.
Dennis LaGrua posted:The meet once drew 15,000 now it is about 10,000, a 33% decline. What does that tell you? Will the same declining audience that attends the meet year after year make the gate number grow or must the ED reach out a bit more. You be the judge.
It tells me that:
Fewer and fewer people are collecting postwar Lionel and Flyer, due to the fact that those who played with these as kids are dying off.
That, like also affecting flea markets and "collectibles" shows, more and more sellers are using eBay.
I'm not sure WHO you want to "reach out to" might reverse this.
