the New river trips with 765.

The 1991 NRHS Convention doubleheader with the 1225 was routed down the south side.  I believe it was done as a special request for the CSX photographer who wanted to shoot the other bridge at Sewell.

Kevin

When was the last year 765 ran those trips? I would suspect early 90's, before NS axed their program. CSX started to turn sour toward steam around the same time. When you have people like David Goode, E. Hunter Harrison, or Michael Ward in charge of a railroad, the chance for steam is almost nil. Those guys only care about the bottom line and avoiding anything that costs money without a profit in return. Like steam programs. At least Wick Moorman at NS has a heart. There was not one mainline steam excursion on a class 1 railroad in 1995 and up, except maybe UP and possibly BNSF. Until now, with NS returning to the world of steam excursions. Do you remember when BN (Burlington Northern) was so anti-steam in the 1980's that they said no to steam locomotives using their rails to get to Expo '86 in Vancouver, BC? E. Hunter Harrison worked for them (BN) then. He is a steam hater. The CP Empress program will probably be eliminated under his leadership. He is a cost cutter, not wanting to spend money on anything "frivolous". The CP Holiday train will continue, though. Right now, it's the three class 1's that begin with "C" that hate steam. CSX, CN, and CP. Even regional railroads can say no, like G&W's refusal to allow 765 to use it's rails last summer to get to another railroad for trips. Some railroads simply do not want to bother with non-freight movements even if they are unoccupied ferry moves. It would be like showing up at a trucking company with a bus and saying can we use your property as a temporary bus loading area?

I'm sure most of the other guys have hearts. 

Contrary to the belief of most railfans, perhaps yourself as well, steam is NOT A MUST! It is not a right. Officials don't have to do anything but run the business, make money for the stockholders, etc, etc. Steam has no part in that. Sure, some like to use it as a PR tool and can be very effective BUT it gets in the way of real business and I know I would have no trouble axing a "steam program" instantly if it got in the way of real business, wasn't worth it, whatever. 

The current management at NS sees the PR value in occasional steam trips. Same goes for the UP folks (well.....not really.......) Great but when business gets especially busy, other things going on, whatever, steam isn't going to run. It took NS nearly 20 years to bring steam back, the Reading & Northern parked their steam engine for 10-15 years while they grew their business, 1994 was the last time a steam engine ran on CSX I think, etc.

Steam is cool but not all see the value in it and that's fine! 

Oh SJC, you didn't just say that!

I've said similar in the past, and have since been "educated." A steam program is absolutely necessary for a successful railroad.

CSX does not have a steam program because they are just plain mean. Business has nothing to do with it.

Certain individuals at UP are not intentionally trying to make their steam program so dysfunctional that the higher-ups cancel it. They're just incompetent.

And CSX has essentially banned all steam from their rails, including all outside parties. Nobody can run a steam excursion on CSX no matter what. Is that why last year 765 had to drop people off at an NS yard in Lafayette, IN and buses took them into town and back and 765 could not run to the Amtrak station because the tracks are CSX? So you will never see steam on the route of the Cardinal, or from Baltimore through Point of Rocks, MD? Is it Michael Ward that has a dislike for steam or others within the company? New River train is now pulled by Amtrak Genesis units.

Waaaa!  Airlines are mean because they do not have airplane fan trips with DC3s or Constellations.

Apples to oranges comparison though, because the airlines don't own the sky. No airline can stop me from flying a vintage aircraft.  The railroads CAN stop people from being able to enjoy steam engines in their natural habitat.  I don't care that CSX doesn't want to do a steam program, I don't care a whole lot that CSX does not want outside steam excursions on their tracks.  My beef is their total lack of cooperation on things as simple as short distance ferry moves and moving vintage equipment that is perfectly OK with other class One railroads. . On that, they're just being jerks for the sake of being jerks.

765 last pulled the New River trains in fall 1993.  FWRHS leased the MILW 261 and used it to provide the motive power for the New River Trains in fall 1994.  FWRHS provided the engineers, crew,  tool car and aux. tank, along with organizational reputation, experience and a "comfort factor" for CSX.

Dieselbob is right on the mark about Lafayette, plus there was over 1000 feet of fence along the east side of the NS main and no gates to let people through!  It just wouldn't work.

Only other way would have been call up CSX or Amtrak, have them send diesel units over to pull the train minus 765 to the Amtrak station if that would have been possible. Maybe Amtrak would have been easier to work with than CSX for moving an excursion train like two miles over CSX track?

That would have been a logistical nightmare, never mind the financial implications. once you involve Amtrak, you would have to be on THEIR insurance, they have no personnel in the area to supervise such a move, and CSX would not likely been amused about their main line tied up for 2-3 hours while this non- Amtrak train sat st the station. Plus, you now tie up a NS locomotive and ANOTHER crew, which costs real money. NS has been so great in even allowing a trip like this to even happen, you want to limit the cost, hassle and exposure for them as much as possible.

Nice..  Let us know when you have something of value to add to the conversation.

What is Kansas City Southern's (the OTHER Class 1) official position on steam?

Ever since that Southern Pacific 2-8-2 group from down in New Orleans area, caused a big mess while out on the KCS (nobody was paying close attention in the cab, and upon topping a grade the low water caused a few "drop plugs" to blow-out and extinguish the oil fire. Big FRA investigation over THAT), I'm sure it will be a cold day in you-know-where before the current KCS management allows a functional steam locomotive out on THEIR railroad again.

 I like seeing steam locomotives operating "again" just as much as the next guy.

 But the reality is.....SJC pretty much covered it. In addition, 99.99% of the general public could care less about a steam locomotive, making it seem like even "less of a good idea" for the railroad thats busy moving goods.

And of course the incident Hotwater posted above as another example of "why not."

If you think 99.9% of the people don't care about steam, then maybe you have never rode behind 765. I never cease to be amazed by the sheer number of people that show up trackside just to catch a glimpse of it.  It's not uncommon around here to get 30-40 people at a single country grade crossing, and then the next, and then the next.  Once again, I am not suggesting that CSX has to participate in the operation of steam excursions, what I am suggesting is that have a recent history of being downright hostile regarding simple things they could do to help those that operate and display steam and other historic equipment.  Not allowing a steamer to be towed a few miles down a siding to get to an event?  Refusing to move a historic passenger car to a museum because it doesn't "like" the type of roller bearings it has, when Norfolk Southern moved it with no issue?  I got to thinking about something the other day.  back in the mid 90's the FWRHS borrowed C&O 2716 to pull some excursions.  When it came time for 2716 to return to it's home in Kentucky, NS and CSX teamed up and took it home.  If that situation were to happen today, 2716 would likely have been marooned in Fort Wayne forever.  

Just a thought but, the population of the good old U.S.A. is something well over 250 MILLION people, so .01% would still reflect one he$$ of a LOT OF PEOPLE. Or am I wrong?

The New River trips and the NCTM trips in Spencer use the same AMTRAK consist, just changing the private cars. Since the late 90s, this has been the status quo. It is easier to operate the trains as an AMTRAK special move on routes already with regular service. Other organizations may use the same consist before or after these trips. AMTRAK uses spare cars due to a drop in servic, mainly coaches and cafe cars. Even with no steam, they still regularly sell out, and generally have no operational problems from host railroads. 

i understand Wick Moorman will be retiring in February 2015, so it will be interesting to see how the 765 trips continue as part of the current NS excursion program. Might see AMTRAK power and cars on those trips in the future.

i just wonder where 611 will operate in 2015 is NS grows cold on steam trips next year.