The newest Lionel-AF SD70’s in a Gilbert environment - with Pic.

Good Day Bob,

Thank you for the overview and picture. I appreciate you posting information on the new SD70ACe.  I plan to purchase the Wabash and NYC soon.

Regards,

Frank

Bob,

What is the "important power truck modification between this newest production run and the last"?  Thanks. 

I have the BNSF from the first run.  It runs well on my home layout, but hesitates and has sound-drops while running on our club layout on which the track work is older and less than perfect. A friend of mine received his two new CNJ units today.  Wow, are they glossy.  I'm not crazy about the hyper-glossy look (if my BNSF unit had come that way I would have been very disappointed).  Tomorrow hopefully we will get to see if his new CNJ SD70's run without interruption on our club layout as compared to first run units (his UP's and my BNSF) which cannot make one lap with out interruption of either running and/or sound.  

Two questions, one easier than the other…

Gloss –

Lionel has been finishing virtually all of their O scale Heritage diesels with a glossy finish for a number of years. I own a UP Katy Heritage SD70ACe first issued several years ago that is as shiny as a new Buick. The rationale for this approach is that brand new engines are being modeled. Published pictures of both the UP and NS heritage fleets reveal them to be, well, brand spanking new.  From this perspective, some of the first issued L-AF SD70’s having a more matte finish was the surprise. Not all were -- the C&NW, for example.  One can appreciate, however, that many would wish for a low gloss finish.

Halting operation –

There are, apparently, two sources for this problem: (1) irregularities in sectional track work and turnouts interacting with unsatisfactory wheel electrical contact; and (2) differences in power supplies and their interactions with the new complex electronics. Because you have both the first and second production run samples in hand, you may be able to comment on this. I have only the second run DL&W sample. 

During last York I had a lengthy conversation with Jon Zahornachy. You might remember that around this time, Carl Tuveson has reported a wheel conductivity issue with his new SD70 traversing a No. 5 turnout on his layout and posted a fairly elaborate fix for the power trucks. I had also noticed the stalling problem, sometimes on SHS turnouts as well as Gilbert. Jon stated (my paraphrasing) that the truck design was less than satisfactory and would be modified for the next run. The final design had not made it into the first run. Last week at the Lionel open house in Canfield, I was remarking to Mike Reagan how well my new SD70 was running on my vintage Gilbert track and he stated that the engine has a revised power truck design compared to the one on the first run. One thing I do like is that the traction tires are only fitted on the inside wheel sets and that the remaining four wheels on each drive truck are free to make direct contact with the rails. This is a vast improvement over the hodge-podge of traction tires and their arrangement on the U33c’s.

Power sources and their interaction with the electronics has been discussed by Mike Reagan on a one-on-one basis with customers and on a video placed on Lionel’s web site. In the very latest CTT (October 2013), Bob Keller reports in a new review of the L-AF C&NW SD70 a dramatic difference in using an MRC Pure Power vs. MTH Z4000 source – the MTH working the better. Simply, the story from Mike Reagan is that chopped wave sources are better for the new stuff than continuous sign wave sources.  As you may imagine, I find this explanation, for now, less than complete. Having resolved various track work issues, I am operating a Big Boy, Challenger, Y3, U33c (1^st gen.), and the new SD70 on my layout with very good results using a venerable Gilbert 30B and a 19B (The Challenger, Y3, and U33, all three of which are equipped with AF Cruise, are best run at Legacy speed step 3 or higher. Equipped with Odyssey II, the BB has never had a stuttering problem). Let’s just say that if one experiences a stuttering/halting problem, swapping out power supplies is one of the things to try.

My sample of the latest SD70’s operate superbly, akin to their O scale brethren.

Let us know what you observe with your buddy’s CNJ vs. your SD70.

Best.

Bob

Frank,

Both the Wabash and the NYC should look sharp! IMHO, the heritage designs with long horizontal design features are the usually more aesthetically successful. Let us know how you like them.

Bob

Gentlemen.......I now have a 1st run NS SD70 and a 2nd run NYC SD70.  Aside from the trucks and glossy paint, are there any differences that would affect MU'ing these units together and running them as a pair?  Are the gear rations (and speed) the same?  Same motors?  Same software?  Etc....?  Anything here to become aware of before I do the deed?  Thanks.....Ed L.

Just place the two locomotives close to each other uncoupled and run them at the same (low) CC speed setting. With Legacy one can dial in the same speed step for each. I assume that one may perform something similar with most DCC systems. If they walk together, MU'ing should not be a problem.

Bob 

Bob

>>  If they walk together, MU'ing should not be a problem.

I was wondering if anyone has observed them walking along and if they stay together or are separating?  Thx....Ed L.

And if they're walking together, are they holding (glad) hands? ? ?

Jerry

Good observation, Ray. I once had a Mikado that had intermittant shorting in its valve gear on one side when on curves. Replacing the valve gear fixed it. I have also seen Challengers with this affliction. Traversing curves and turned turnouts will bring out this kind of problem.

What is of some concern is that Lionel (at Canfield) currently tests repaired Flyer on continuous loops of S Fastrack with no Gilbert trackage and no turnouts. This arrangement does not maximize the likelihood of finding intermittent shorting and conductivity problems, as experienced on real world layouts. Trains built for 2-rail operation are more prone to these types of manufacturing (or design) defects than 3-rail trains.

A confession -- when it is known that there will be a second production run of an engine type that I desire, I often wait for that run for which problem areas have usually been uncovered and corrected. This is the situation for the U33's whose second run revisions are not (easily) retrofittable. Not to pick just on Lionel, whose products I own and enjoy. This is my working practice with many manufacturers of all types of goods. As reported, my new (second production run) SD70 is operating beautifully.

Please let us know how the problem is resolved.

Bob

Folks, wanted to comment that Lionel CS in Ohio does not perform design qualification - although their feedback is well considered.  The design qualification for all products is accomplished in the Mechanical Engineering team (MI); and the Electronics Engineering team (CA).  I reviewed the new truck design and approved the design, and pushed for the correction and implementation with the production team based on my testing and feedback from the forums (Carl T, etc).  In CA - I test on S-Helper track, and Gilbert / Tubular tracks of which the turnouts were provided to me by Carl T.

I believe the problem indicated in this particular situation is not design related.  I am sorry the issue exists, but I am certain Lionel will resolve the problem to the customers satisfaction.

Jon,

Thank you for your prompt clarification. One does wonder, however, that it might be good practice for CS in Canfield to possess and utilize a test layout configuration similar in kind to yours for testing individual samples in question from the field. It may be worth their consideration.

Not trying to be contentious. As I have posted, I am delighted with my new SD70.

Thank you.

Bob

Bob, I agree that CS in Canfield could verify that a loco in for repairs is operating per specifications with a more comprehensive test setup.  The testing coverage in Manufacturing and in the Service departments is always good to review and improve.

Sorry if my reply seemed contentious, I was simply pointing out that a product should not require design verification in CS; and our design labs do have the various track systems to head off as many problems on the front end as we can wrap our minds around.

>> Jon wrote:  ...our design labs do have the various track systems

>> to head off as many problems on the front end as we can wrap

>> our minds around.

Gents...Having had the opportunity to visit the Lionel design lab in California, I can attest to seeing many, many large plywood table tops with all kinds of track systems in place -- both in S gauge and O gauge.  Reverse curves, grades up & down, numerous different radii, Gilbert track, SHS track, switches and crossings all over the place, accessory operating tracks, sensors in the track, etc. are all in evidence and in every conceivable configuration imaginable.  No actual layout would ever have the complexity I witnessed while there.  It is totally unrealistic, but is intended to provide a worst-case experience for the rolling stock.

Not to mention many various types of power sources including plain old transformers, Legacy systems, NCE DCC system, and more.  If a loco runs well on the Lionel lab tracks, it should run well anywhere.

But design is only part of the issue........

Poorly laid trackwork can, in many cases, be the cause of unacceptable operation.  Obviously, Lionel has no control over their customer's track conditions.  In addition, factory workmanship errors can cause errors in spite of the best design possible.  Other quality control issues (where the product deviates from design specs) can cause problems even if the design is perfect. 

It is not always obvious where fault lies for some problems.  Is it the design?  The track?  Factory-related  deviations from design specs?  All of the above?  Or what?

Just some thoughts........Ed Loizeaux

To clarify….

Jon’s developmental layout in California was not the one about which I was raising a constructive question, but rather the simple test loop for AF S gauge at Customer Service in Canfield. By comparison, the O gauge test layout in Ohio is very large, complex, and thorough in its capabilities, to say the least. Jon clarified any possible misconceptions quite handily.

To bring the discussion back to essence of the review:

1. The first generation SD70ACe, a new engine with considerable complexity, capability, and universality of operating environment, had difficulties operating smoothly at low speed on sectional track in some circumstances given the type of track, its condition, dirt, care of assembly at joiners, etc. The issue was also made evident by Carl Tuveson on his modern #5 turnouts. I have observed on others' layouts stuttering/stalling on SHS turnouts, too, so the Gilbert track system was not alone in being a challenge, crude though Gilbert track may be. The nature of the power supply in use can also be an issue (viz., the recent CTT review).
2. The good news is that the second generation SD70Ace under review here acquitted itself beautifully, managing to easily and smoothly traverse (even) Gilbert turnouts at Legacy speed step 1. No issues were observed on my Gilbert track work using classic Gilbert power supplies. The operational success of the second generation is tied to a significant modification of the drive truck, as so indicated to me by Jon and Mike Reagan.

As an aside, the first generation U33c had somewhat similar issues as the first generation SD70 and it was modified significantly for its second production run. Reports are that the operation of the second generation U33c is improved, as well.

Operational shortcomings may show up in production samples out in the real world after their development has nominally been completed (regardless of the nature and composition of the layout used for the development). So, another piece of good news is that our manufacturers are open-minded, do learn from experience, and improve their products.

Have fun.

Bob

This is all well and good, but as an owner of first run SD70 and U33c engines and now (envious) admirer of their second run counterparts, I would appreciate knowing what was the change made between the two?  Thanks. 

Having asked Mike Reagan in the past, the answer to updating the U33c is "Short of switching practically the whole chassis, no". Unfortunately. The SD70 raises a new question and the man to ask is: MREAGAN@LIONEL.COM. 

Let us know what you find out. 

Bob

One of the differences between the first and second production run of U33 diesels is the gear ratio.  The second run locos have a higher gear ratio between the motor and the axles which results in a slower (more realistic) top speed which, in my opinion, is a very nice improvement.  I think, but am not  certain, that the U33 top speed was reduced by about 20-25% approximately.  As a fringe benefit, smoother slow speed running is also an advantage of the new gear ratio.  I never did see the need for rocket ship speeds on model trains and appreciate this change.

Would Mr. Reagan be the person to ask about obtaining scale wheels for a second run SD70?  It seems that Customer Service folks are still (to this day) in the dark about the promises made in the past and in the catalog.  Very frustrating to find the person on the other end of email correspondence to be totally unaware of the concept of swapping new scale wheels into the SD70 to replace the AF wheels. 

Thanks......Ed Loizeaux

Carl T. gives a good explanation of the difference in U33 trucks concerning power pickup in his hints and tips page. Looks like the same fix applies to SD70s. Maybe it will help with the problems.

I contacted Remy Convery about the scale wheel sets for the SD70 and he replied that they are still in the plan and should become available for purchase "shortly". With the other delays from China, it should not be unexpected that the scale wheel sets are a bit behind, too.

I council forbearance.

Bob

No need for forbearance.  The wheels are in transit to me as of Tuesday, Sept. 10th.  Lionel has them in stock now.  Cheers....Ed L.

Ed, are the scale wheels in the parts section, or did you just call Lionel?

Rusty

Good news! Let us know how the wheel sets work out.

Bob

Thanks for your dilligence and the part number Ed.  I looked through the ST70 parts lists this morning and couldn't find them.

30 bucks for a set of 6 wheelsets sure beats 120 bucks for two truck assemblys.

Rusty

Part of the problem might be that the SD70 does not come from the factory with scale wheels.  Thus, that part number would not necessarily be included on the parts list for that product. Just a thought.  ed L.

Wow Ed, talk about going the distance.

Even though I'm not in the market for a new Lionel SD-something... I truly admire your determination and willingness to share your findings here to the benefit of those that ARE Lionel customers.

Well done.

Mr. Ming.......(and anyone else listening in)...........

Here is the ironic part of all this.  I am a true-blue scale model railroader interested in excellent realism.  For me, the typical Lionel/AF offerings are always a bit short of what I would really like.  But they keep me coming back to their catalog to keep an eye on things.  My NYC transition-era layout is full of lightning stripes, Hudsons, Mohawks, Niagaras, etc.  Nothing modern on it at all.

Then Lionel/AF announces a NYC-painted SD70.  What was I to do?  Ignore it since it was out of era?  Buy it and find a machine shop to make it work on my layout?  Or pray to my personal Train God for some other miracle?  For a while, I was convinced I had made a terrible mistake buying something along with a promise to make it work (i.e., scale wheels) some time later.  Yes, I was worried.

The other factor at work here is that very few other companies are making new engines in S scale.  MTH is offering a re-tooled F-3 with their own proprietary control system electronics inside.  This same engine (before retooling) was offered by SHS for years and is not really anything "new".  The only brass importer in S scale is following the SP vein to its end. Like a gold mine, once the vein is found, follow it until it is exhausted.  So I doubt anything like a NYC engine will be forthcoming there.  American Models has good-enough-for-me products and I have lots of stuff from AM.  But nothing really new in quite some time.  To put it another way.....

....Lionel is the only game in town for brand new S stuff !!!!

So my purchase of the SD70 and the Y-3 (converted to scale, of course) was done, in part, to help Lionel realize that S scale does exist and to encourage them to make more products in S.  After purchasing the SD70, I then realized I "needed" a modern train to run behind it.  Thus, a few of the Lionel/AF cylindrical hoppers are now on order.  I have seen the excellent body casting of the cylindrical hopper and am very impressed.  While the paint schemes for this specific car are not precisely authentic, I might end up repainting them or just accepting something not quite right -- which would be a new experience for me.  The jury is still out on that decision.  Good old Doug Peck (Port Lines Hobbies) is undoubtedly laughing up his sleeve at the diehard scale guy buying AF trains as he walks to the bank each week.

Even more ridiculous than all of the above stuff, is that the modern era is a small minority of all those modeling in S gauge/scale.  Lionel has touched the tip of the iceberg here with the SD70 and is missing the mainstream of modelers who are mostly in the transition era.  The Y-3 was a reasonable choice for transition era modelers, but it is a HUGE loco and an EXPENSIVE loco.  Thus, I would expect the sales volume to be abnormally small for the Y-3.

If Lionel is really monitoring this OGR forum as some have claimed, I hope they read this message and offer a small-to-medium sized steam engine that could be easily converted to scale wheels.  Or, even better, offer it with Lionel scale wheels in the first place.  The USRA Mikado has the tooling already made, but the engine only came with AF wheels.  Converting it to scale wheels is impractical for Fred Rouse to take on as a service.  While Fred is happy to convert the Y-3, doing the same for the Mikado is a can of worms for Fred.  (Ask Fred for details.)  Since the major tooling expense is already behind Lionel, I'd like to think they could make a few minor modifications to the existing tooling and offer that same engine as a scale product.  "Scale" in this sense means with NMRA-compatible wheels and provision for Kadee couplers.  It would be a sure winner !!

Hello Lionel............Are you listening ??

End of soap box tirade.  Hope it didn't bore anyone.

"S"incerely.........Ed Loizeaux

Which of these new diesels have the power truck modification?

Your observations are pretty much right on the money, Ed.

I'll admit my approach to model railroading casts a wider net than yours, but even so, sometimes I find S Scale stifling.

In a way, it's kind scary that Lionel is the only company doing anything new (at the moment) even though the selection is somewhat limited, particularly to the scaler.

I too hope that Lionel makes more offerings to appeal to the S Scaler, but I think the best we can hope for are products that can have the wheels changed out (or reworked per Fred) and the ability to mount Kadees.  Unfortunately, that adds an extra burden of cost to an already perceived expensive product.

We're still at the beginning of a new era for Lionel's approach to Flyer and it's still fuzzy which direction it will take.  Their scale-approach products may be short lived.  I remain confused by observation of their method so far.  Time will tell.

I believe that both Lionel and MTH will have to realize one thing:  The S market (scale or Flyer-compatible) doesn't have the brand loyalty fervor that seems to permeate the 3-rail O market.  My opinion, I have no real data to back it up..

Things may look up once MTH gets product out, once a little competition gets going.  I've got a set of F3's on order (I'm saving my pennies and searching the furniture for loose change to pay for them.  Time is on my side at the moment...) and I'm anxious to see the similarity/differences with it's SHS progenitor. 

We'll have to wait and see how the rest of the S crowd accepts MTH.  By my observation, a good part of the scale doesn't appear to like the boat being rocked.

Then there's AM.  I too, like their products.  Good, solid basic, great for modifying, but that's something I'm less inclined to do nowadays.  Ask my Pacific that's been waiting to be completed for a decade...

The big problem with AM is their low profile.  Yes, almost everyone in S knows who they are, but in the outside world?  Being another family owned business, I wonder sometimes if AM will eventually wind up under another name.

Rusty

I believe that all of the Norfolk Southern Heritage SD70ACe's catalogued on pages 144-145 in Lionel 2012 Vol.2 and on pages 20-21 in American Flyer 2013 have the updated power trucks. The Norfolk Southern Heritage ES44AC's on pages 16-19 in American Flyer 2013 will also be fitted with the redesigned power trucks. In short, all engines delivered in late July 2013, August 2013, and thereafter.

If it is critical to you, you may wish to double check with the Big L, but I believe I have it correctly.

Hope this helps.

Bob

OT:

I worked the night job the past couple nights.  Night job's role is to prepare and exchange trains with the "Fort Smith Turn".  The brand-spankin' new ACe's were on the FSTN again last night.  This was only their third trip over our road. Had a chance to climb aboard and chat with Mitch and Terry (crew). 

Wow... BIG difference between a 2013 SD70ACe and nearly 50 year old Alco's like was in my consist! (I had a C424 and a C420.)  The SD cab was amazing. The comfort of the chairs was incredible.  Definitely high brow railroading!

Those SD70 thingies are huge.

found a picture...................................

AND... if'n yer in the mood for more... here 'ya go... knock yerself out!

http://www.rrpicturearchives.n...cture.aspx?id=184451

BTW: Tulsa, eh?  You DO realize that is only about an hour and a half from where I live, right?  Hmmmm.

If you have not seen this from Norfolk Southern, you may find it fun.....

http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/Community/Heritage%20Locomotives/#&panel1-10

Bob