Tooting the horn

I always made as much noise as possible , you would be surprised how many folks hit by a train that lived claimed  in court they never heard us. and the rules state the full shot unless the timetable indicates a quite zone then no horn at all.

Unless a qz in, full horn sequence is to be blown per rulebook.

What if the crossings are so close together (say, in a residential area), that it would be impossible to get the full sequence in on one crossing before arriving at another?

@smd4 posted:

What if the crossings are so close together (say, in a residential area), that it would be impossible to get the full sequence in on one crossing before arriving at another?

Continue same sequence

I strongly suspect there's an explanation other than some engineers doing one thing and others doing something else just on a whim. You'd almost have to spend a few hours by the crossing (or check with other local railfans) to find out what the issue is.

BTW what do you mean by "tired" horn honkings exactly? Is it the same long-long-short-long for a grade crossing but quieter, or some other series of honks? If the latter, the engineer might be using the horn to signal some action other than crossing the street at grade.

@wjstix posted:

BTW what do you mean by "tired" horn honkings exactly? Is it the same long-long-short-long for a grade crossing but quieter, or some other series of honks? If the latter, the engineer might be using the horn to signal some action other than crossing the street at grade.

Assuming the horn control is a valve that the engineer pulls, the "tired sound" seemed as though the valve was just opened partway, so the full air pressure was not used to toot horn, kind of a weak sound than full on/off blasts.

@rrman posted:

Assuming the horn control is a valve that the engineer pulls, the "tired sound" seemed as though the valve was just opened partway, so the full air pressure was not used to toot horn, kind of a weak sound than full on/off blasts.

Must have been a much older locomotive, as non-modulation air horn valves became a requirement in the late 1970, early 1980s. Now modern units (since the mid-1990s) have electrically operated air horns, in that the Engineer or Conductor simply pushes a button to "blow" the air horn (some even have an automatic crossing horn activation circuit).

Rrman, others have adequately covered the requirement of the rule for sounding crossing warning whistle signals, except that Federal regulations require it to be sounded for not less than 20 seconds nor more than 30 seconds each time.

Things in play affecting what you are hearing:

1. Yes, at least some of the locomotives have the modulating air horn control valve, usually operated by a pull-lever mounted on the control stand, or the same type of lever mounted in the cab ceiling and activated by a rope attached between the lever and the control stand.
2. If the light whistling is common, then the railroad managers, at their own peril, are not putting forth the effort to verify whether the rule is complied with and correct the attitudes of any employees who are deficient.  There are -- and always have been -- Engineers who are irritated by the whistle and do not like to sound it long and loud.  However, there are also vast herds of plaintiff attorneys who have become much more sophisticated in using disregard of railroad rules to portray the railroad and its employees as being cavalier and unconcerned about safety of the public, when playing to a jury which has the power to, and often does, award large sums of money to people who are injured by trains even though it is primarily their own fault that they were injured or killed.
3. If a rule is badly designed (and this one is an excellent example of government employees crafting a rule with many complicated aspects) then full compliance with the rule will get it changed by natural processes.  In this instance, if the Engineers fully sound the whistle as required and, say, it is in a residential neighborhood, the residents will complain to their elected officials, who, in order to have some peace, will appropriate the funding necessary to create a quiet zone* and the whistling, along with the angry letters and phone calls from constituents, will stop.  The reason this complicated government rule got into the Code of Federal Regulations in the first place was to stop the angry letters and phone calls that were coming to members of Congress from constituents complaining about loved ones injured or killed by trains which -- allegedly -- did not adequately warn of their approach.

I hope this helps in understanding what you're hearing.  Some employees are lazy and some officials are lazy.

*   In an unusual example of fairness, the local agency requesting a quiet zone must pay all of the costs to upgrade crossing protection.  This includes any active warning devices (signals), lane barriers, signs, etc, and is hugely expensive.  The railroad is responsible for none of the extra cost of quiet zone road crossings, except for the roadway in the crossing and a crossbuck at the crossing.  For once, the railroad got a fair deal.

Thank you all for enlightening me.  I appreciate the professionals here setting me straight and that it was not my imagination.  I had always assumed you had to do the full cadence no exceptions except quiet zones.  But then I am just an armchair railfan so what do I know.

To add; If it's a private crossing where you don't have to blow the horn, PTC may be starting the crossing sequence on it's own. Some engineers let it finish all the way out, while others nullify the sequence by pressing the button to get it to stop. Not sure how it is on other RRs, but on CSX...PTC blows every dirt road and rabbit crossing automatically. There's even places where there is no crossing, public or private, and PTC starts the horn blasting away.

With the exception of the C40-8s (retired 2016) and the switchers (mostly retired), all the engines with real horn valves got modded to a button in 2009-2010 on CSX. So it's "all or nothing" with the horn.

What were the circumstances involved?

When I was switching over a road crossing and happened to be just clear of the crossing and the gates are still down or if they aren't and I could clearly see no one was near, why make a bunch of unnecessary noise?

@Big Jim posted:

What were the circumstances involved?

When I was switching over a road crossing and happened to be just clear of the crossing and the gates are still down or if they aren't and I could clearly see no one was near, why make a bunch of unnecessary noise?

Don't know how true this, but have read, sometimes there are RR inspectors hiding in the weeds with radar guns, stopwatches, and or videos just waiting to pounce on errant engineers.

@rrman posted:

Don't know how true this, but have read, sometimes there are RR inspectors hiding in the weeds with radar guns, stopwatches, and or videos just waiting to pounce on errant engineers.

Well, they are NOT "RR inspectors". They are most often referred to as "Weed Weasels".

@Hot Water posted:

Well, they are NOT "RR inspectors". They are most often referred to as "Weed Weasels".

And I am sure there are some choice words that proceed this term but not printable on this family friendly forum!!

When I was a BNSF engineer, the FRA and BNSF were on us constantly about the horn rule, 15-20 seconds until the crossing is occupied under 45 mph, above 45, blow one properly timed sequence from the "W" board, until crossing is occupied, then stop, no point blowing after you're off the wood. We always had somebody out of service over it. If you google FRA horn rule, I think it's about 54 pages long.

@locopilot750 posted:

We always had somebody out of service over it. If you google FRA horn rule, I think it's about 54 pages long.

Geeze, to paraphrase an oft quoted (true or not) Elvis line: "The common sense has left the building!".  Some bureaucrat(s) must have had way too much time on hands, and wanted to insure every i dotted and T crossed for every possible scenario.

@rrman posted:

Geeze, to paraphrase an oft quoted (true or not) Elvis line: "The common sense has left the building!".  Some bureaucrat(s) must have had way too much time on hands, and wanted to insure every i dotted and T crossed for every possible scenario.

Given the fact that vehicles are regularly mowed down at crossings, obviously they couldn't manage scenarios where idiots drive up on the tracks and around the crossing gates!

rrman . railroads have train masters and or compliance officers that are constantly performing these observations as well as FRA and DOT inspectors.  The FRA develops Regulations and the railroads have to build a program that uses them , the railroad can make them more restrictive but not less. compliance checks go on all the time ,yes radar guns for speed and many other tests that are required to make sure the crews follow all the regulations. the railroads take it very seriously as fines are very high if the FRA catches you  while doing an observation and finds you at fault. Fines are also given to railroad workers who willfully violate rules. the railroad is an incredibly dangerous world where if the rules are followed (and yes there are lots of them) disasters can be avoided. I spent 25 years as an engineer and then a Trainmaster who as part of my duties was rules compliance. there are no rules for operations , hazmat or train handling that are not absolute.  its hard to look in as an outsider , Railfan or model railroader and make sense of it , my first year of railroading was an eye opener as I thought that having followed railroads most of my life I new a fair amount. boy was I wrong.  one last thing, a large number of the regulations have been the results of major incidents across the county.  

Every railroad crossing I've seen with trains going to cross over have always done it by the book. Around me, the BR&W are always blaring horns and blowing whistles. If no one can hear the horns or hear the whistles(and feel the vibrations where applicable), they must be dead.