VL Challenger smoke units anemic output

ToledoEd posted:

My VL Challenger was always an anemic smoker with little discernable smoke from the Dynamo or blowdown.  So i decided to open it up and replace the wicking.  Pretty straightforward except for that little tube between the fan and smoke reservoir in the auxiliary smoke unit it went well.  I did notice the resistor had turned brown but it didn't look as if any material was burned on it. After I closed it up and tried it, well, little improvement.  Blowdown works a little better but very little visible smoke from the dynamo..  I use peppermint Lionel fluid and I can smell it coming out of the hole, but the smoke is so very light.   

The main smoke element was putting out smoke, but anemic at best and no smoke from the whistle. This was true even when I turned off the main unit.  I replaced the wicking. I but an 8" wick in each half of the reservoir. I was careful not to block the hole for the air from the fan.  Still, very anemic smoke...it's visible but lite...no whistle smoke.  The fans run.  I was trying to emulate Bill Yates' results:    https://youtu.be/mCe2Jz-y4uI  [it's at about the 2:54 min. mark]

I thought of replacing the 8ohm resistors, but the Lionel parts list says "unavailable."  I'm not sure what I should do next to increase  the smoke output...or, should I just be satisfied I get some?  Thanks.

I forgot to mention:  When I opened up the smoke units, it appeared the Lioonel wick was a replacement, not the little blocks I've seen in other Lionel smoke units and there was only a resistor, not that other wire loop Bill describes in his videos.  

I have the Clinchfield version of the Challenger and I have just come to the conclusion that I should be happy to have smoke from the stack as I am unable to get any smoke from the other features.  I look forward to hearing what others are experiencing with theirs.

Don

How much smoke fluid do you put in it?

I soaked the wicks thoroughly before I closed up the reservoir.  When I opened them up to replace the wick it seemed they were very wet. 

Don, I hear you. If you hold the blowdown icon for 15 seconds or so, then wait 10 then hold it down it may produce some smoke. That’s a trick Mike Reagan suggested for my Big Boy. Works great with  the BB. 

Oh dear, sounds like an epidemic. I have a VL Challenger too and yes, the smoke from the dynamo is anaemic. Stack smoke is better but not great; whistle works, unlike yours, and that may help diagnose the problem.

With mine, I was so perturbed by the lack of performance that I opened it up while still under warranty to see what was up. Front smoke unit (stack and whistle) is an early Legacy dual chamber model. It is all metal, not the black plastic of later Legacy, with a metal divider in the middle that has a small gap at the bottom. At the time I was not familiar with these and did not know what to make of it. Here's the Lionel exploded parts diagram:

Getting smoke fluid into both the stack and whistle chambers is no easy matter. The smoke fluid goes in the main stack, which is a separate assembly that feeds into only one of the smoke outlets on top of the smoke unit. It relies on capillary action for the fluid to fill the adjoining whistle chamber:

Opening up the engine in the first place was a bad decision; a wire got pinched on reassembly and it had to go back to Lionel. I corresponded with Mike R. who said they'd re-pack the smoke units with rope wicking instead of the pads. I assume they did but no great improvement. The performance is not a patch on what I have seen in other people's videos but bear in mind that the camera angle and lighting and can affect the image.

Now for the punch line. I have not tried the "100 drops of smoke fluid" treatment, meaning opening up the engine, taking the PCB off the smoke unit and saturating the smoke wadding with fluid. (See earlier posts under that title from LOS, who has posted query a little further up this thread - he's being too modest.) What I have found is two things with the later Lionel dual chamber units. The first is that saturating the wadding with smoke fluid works although you don't need to take the engine apart, just add smoke fluid slowly and let it soak in across both chambers. The second is that there is a "Sweet Spot" with Legacy smoke units for maximum output when the smoke fluid level, track voltage and settings like EFX are all at the right level. This usually lasts at least a few runs around a large circuit. 

Recently, after a lot of fooling around with my favorite Legacy engine, the Daylight cab forward, I hit that spot, with the result shown in the video linked below. One day I will try getting the Challenger to work like this, which in my experience is as good as most Legacy smoke units perform: 

I have a number of Legacy steamers that I've been successful in getting maximum smoke from.  It can be done, sometimes it's a little "twitchy" to get it right.

John, any suggestions I can or should do?

HANCOCK52, thanks.  The sweet spot and “twitchy” are interesting comments. I did have one spectacular blowdown and dynamo smoke output last year. Could never repeat it. I wish I could remember what I did. I also have an UP cab forward that smokes like your video shows. Never fails to do so. Although I drenched the batting pretty well, or so I think when I opened it up, but maybe not.  I’m going to put more in. See what happens. 

One thing you can do if the wick is good is make SURE the screws and nuts that hold the smoke resistor are TIGHT.  If they're at all loose and make a poor connection, you lose a lot of heat and the smoke performance is very poor.

Thanks. I’ll open it up and check to be sure. 

Smoke units are pretty basic items,it should be rocket science to get them working properly.

If it's a Lionel smoke unit and has the thermistor, my experience is it should normally be parallel to the smoke unit with both the resistor and thermistor perpendicular to the smoke PCB.  If you don't get sufficient smoke, and you've done all the other smoke unit enhancement steps, try moving the thermistor about 1/8" farther away from the smoke resistor.

If it doesn't have the thermistor, there are only a handful of things you can do.  A good wick, tight connections to the smoke resistor, and proper smoke resistor placement.  I like the smoke resistor just offset from the stack and about 3/16" to 1/4" away from the top PCB.  The resistor should be firmly embedded in the wick material but NOT totally covered the top half should be exposed to the airflow from the fan.  Speaking of the fan, make SURE the path from the fan is not blocked, the air should be free to leave the fan chamber, go over the resistor and on out the stack, hopefully carrying the vaporized smoke fluid with it. 

Finally, make sure the fan is running in the proper direction.  For most smoke units, that's CW, but there are some that run it CCW.  Do not be fooled by the curved blades, the convex surface actually pushes the air, the shape is to reduce the air noise.  Many folks think the concave side should be pushing the air and run the fan backwards. You can normally see which way the fan should run by the positioning of the fan chamber exhaust port.  With that said, I've seen a couple smoke units that actually do run the fan with the concave surface pushing the air, never did understand that.

John, thanks. I do not have a thermistor, so I'll do the things you suggest in that situation and if that doesn't change things...so be it.  By the way, do the resistors fail gradually, or is it all or nothing?

thanks

Resistors can fail, and you can measure the resistance if you have a decent ohmmeter.  If the resistance is high, you'll get less smoke.  I've found the 8 ohm resistors at 8.5-10 ohms.  If an 8 ohm rated resistor is over 8.5 ohms I replace it.  I also check the new resistor value before I put it in.  As far as the ohmmeter, I use Fluke equipment.  I also have several values of 0.1% precision resistors that I periodically check the accuracy of my meter to insure my readings are valid.

Thanks John. I'll do that...  I assume any 8 ohm resistor should work as a replacement, yes?  I ask because Lionel lists the resistors for the VL Challenger as "unavailable."

ToledoEd posted:

I assume any 8 ohm resistor should work as a replacement, yes?

NOOOOO!  You need either 2W or 3W wirewound resistor.  I buy the ceramic coated ones as they're readily available and just knock the powdered ceramic off them with a Dremel wire wheel.

RES 8.2 OHM 2W 5% AXIAL

If you need it to be slightly shorter.

Bourns FW20A8R20JA

Oh, thanks.  I'll order some.  I adjusted the position of the resistor in the blowdown/dynamo unit, the nuts holding are tight. The meter reading is at 8.4 ohms so I'll not replace it.

Follow on:  just completed some trial runs again after checking resistors, and batting etc....no improvement.  Either I'm not doing something right, or...I don't know.  Thanks for the help, greatly appreciated.  

Let's get on the same page.  What's the actual product number for your Challenger?

If this is the 2010 model, the smoke control board has been known to croak.