Unbelievable that MTH would do new tooling for a Premier SD45 (which they haven't done much with IMO) and not do anything with that FP45....at least do something with that fuel tank
hibar posted:If the SD40-2 continues with low reservations perhaps Scott would consider gauging the interest in a newer GE, they did the Dash 9 in brass a number of years ago [very basic model at the time] so a -9 or newer version ES44-Evo.
I hope no GEs. Hate 'em.
Here is a thought. If the length of the SD40-2 and the FP or FP45 are the same. Why not offer both as the chassis would be common between the two. Personally I would like to see an U25C or U28C phase 1 as many were used by a variety of roads. As for more modern the DASH 8 would be a good start since it is rooted in the U28C phase 2 new car body.
The next issue as I see it is the limited roads after 73. CONRAIL , SCL, Cheesie System, NW, and Southern in the east. BN, CNW, I, SOO Line in the Midwest, and ATSF, SP, UP, and Western Pacific in the west. The list gets smaller by the 90s CSX, Norfolk Southern, BNSF, and UP. So I can see other issues for modeling modern engines.
Hot Water posted:GG1 4877 posted:We thought due to the broad use of the SD40-2 across many road names and the fact that they are at home from 1972 until today on many railroads, this would be a hit. This was especially true with the 2 rail community where a group of 2 railers have been asking for more modern power. This was seen as a gateway to a modern diesel. To date, a really decent SD40-2 has not been done in mass production in either 2 or 3 rail. They are generic, ride too high, and don't have the same quality drive.
Perhaps the extensive amount of SD40s produced is the issue. My Atlas one is still outstanding considering it's age.
However, the market always speaks and if this one doesn't go forward for a while or at all, it's not the end of the world. I have a 3 rail one reserved in ATSF.
Jonathan, another possible point; how many potential customers in either 3-Rail or 2-Rail even know the differences between an EMD SD40 and an EMD SD40-2?
The SD40-2 is my all time favorite engine. They were great performers, leaving those GE's sitting in their own smoke!
That said, for me and as George Thorough good sings..."One drink ain't enough Jack, you better bring three!" Yeah, I need a consist of three and unfortunately that is cost prohibitive. 
BTW Jonathan, three different road numbers is something you need to do in order to get a proper consist.
Laidoffsick posted:There is also nothing special about an SD40-2, sure there were tons of them made, and everyone had some. It's just not special or unique. What famous train did it pull......ehh?
Lest we forget Frank Barnes' AWVR #1206. Wasn't it a SD40-2?��
Laidoffsick posted:There is also nothing special about an SD40-2, sure there were tons of them made, and everyone had some. It's just not special or unique.
This fact may be one of the main reasons there are not more reservations. Model railroaders tend to model the unique and unusual. There were only 25 or so Big Boys, yet how many models of them exist? How many PRR turbine steam locomotives existed and how many models of it exists? Offer a model of a unique and unusual articulated (Triplex, for example) and it sells. Offer a common, everyday mikado, no dice.
Opinion.
I disagree, I think modelers who study their favorite prototypes and want to model the operations, look to get the the more common place stuff because that was what was seen everyday.
I agree that collectors seem to favor all the unique and oddball stuff. The steam turbine on the Pennsy only ran for about 5 years and was a single engine. How many ever saw it running? the PRR K4 of which 475 were built ran from about 1918 until 1957 or about 40 years and all over the system. A typical scene of a passenger train on the PRR was much more likely to have a K4 on the point than the Steam Turbine.
Big Jim posted:BTW Jonathan, three different road numbers is something you need to do in order to get a proper consist.
Thanks for the info. One thing Scott does when looking at orders is makes sure we have enough numbers to cover everyone's individual order so they do not have a duplicate number. Often, he will come to me after orders have closed and ask for additional numbers for that very reason. We've done as many a 8 numbers down to a minimum of 2. However, 4 is most common. We'll make sure to have at least three in this case.
prrjim posted:I disagree, I think modelers who study their favorite prototypes and want to model the operations, look to get the the more common place stuff because that was what was seen everyday.
I agree that collectors seem to favor all the unique and oddball stuff. The steam turbine on the Pennsy only ran for about 5 years and was a single engine. How many ever saw it running? the PRR K4 of which 475 were built ran from about 1918 until 1957 or about 40 years and all over the system. A typical scene of a passenger train on the PRR was much more likely to have a K4 on the point than the Steam Turbine.
Funny you mention the PRR S2. At a recent TCA meet I was discussing the prototype locomotive and how it functioned. I asked a very prominent and past national president how many Lionel made. His response was, "10,000, maybe 20,000". That's when I mentioned there was only 1.
I personally like the working engines that lasted in service for a long time. Yes I am a GG1 freak and that has been done to death, but it also had a lengthy career, and a great track record. I grew up with E8s and E7s pulling commuter trains, riding behind the ubiquitous F40PH on NJT and Amtrak, and see lots of 2nd generation SD and GP units in freight service. Up until just a few years ago, I'd still see an SD40-2 working in a consist of SD70s and GE Dash-9s and GEVOs long after the SD50 and SD60 were gone.
prrjim posted:I disagree, I think modelers who study their favorite prototypes and want to model the operations, look to get the the more common place stuff because that was what was seen everyday.
I agree that collectors seem to favor all the unique and oddball stuff. The steam turbine on the Pennsy only ran for about 5 years and was a single engine. How many ever saw it running? the PRR K4 of which 475 were built ran from about 1918 until 1957 or about 40 years and all over the system. A typical scene of a passenger train on the PRR was much more likely to have a K4 on the point than the Steam Turbine.
I agree completely. But it has been said many times that these types of projects need support from the 2 rail crowd and the 3 rail crowd. There are plenty of modelers on the 2 rail side. Apparently, there are not enough modelers on the 3 rail side to help this project succeed.
prrjim posted:I disagree, I think modelers who study their favorite prototypes and want to model the operations, look to get the the more common place stuff because that was what was seen everyday.
I agree that collectors seem to favor all the unique and oddball stuff. The steam turbine on the Pennsy only ran for about 5 years and was a single engine. How many ever saw it running? the PRR K4 of which 475 were built ran from about 1918 until 1957 or about 40 years and all over the system. A typical scene of a passenger train on the PRR was much more likely to have a K4 on the point than the Steam Turbine.
True. But I got more favorable comments on my Turbine pulling varnish than when my double headed K4s did. Visitors to my old layout also loved my centipedes, another unique engine. I do have to admit that moving the centipedes from the yard to the passenger siding for an engine change out was challenging.
Reading the above posts there definitely is a desire for a highly detailed, road specific, O scale 2-rail SD40-2. But the total number of 2- and 3-rail reservations received so far is just not enough for Sunset to go forward with this project. Probably a good business decision if we want them to be around for awhile.
By the way, I sold the Turbine because the PRR stored it in 1946 so it did not fit my layout date of 1949. I do miss that oddball steamer.
GG1 4877 posted:Big Jim posted:BTW Jonathan, three different road numbers is something you need to do in order to get a proper consist.
Thanks for the info. One thing Scott does when looking at orders is makes sure we have enough numbers to cover everyone's individual order so they do not have a duplicate number. Often, he will come to me after orders have closed and ask for additional numbers for that very reason. We've done as many a 8 numbers down to a minimum of 2. However, 4 is most common. We'll make sure to have at least three in this case.
I ordered three Santa Fes. I hope they are one day made.
RM
GG1 4877 posted:Funny you mention the PRR S2. At a recent TCA meet I was discussing the prototype locomotive and how it functioned. I asked a very prominent and past national president how many Lionel made. His response was, "10,000, maybe 20,000". That's when I mentioned there was only 1.
Your biggest problem is that you have 2 DISPARATE groups whose goals and interests are mostly NOT in common. How many Lionel buyers (or Mikey's) do you think give a crap about the "prototype"? It's an apples and oranges crowd.
Simon
You need to check out postings on the 3-rail scale and 027 forums. A surprising subset of the 3-rail crowd is now counting rivets, big time. Woe to the supplier who puts the wrong bell on an SD-9!
I'd love to have a nice Mopac SD40-2. Unfortunately, Sunset models are out of my price range. Even Premier engines from MTH are more than is like to spend, although I have some. I'd love to have a Sunset engine but will forever be budget limited.
GG1 4877 posted:prrjim posted:I disagree, I think modelers who study their favorite prototypes and want to model the operations, look to get the the more common place stuff because that was what was seen everyday.
I agree that collectors seem to favor all the unique and oddball stuff. The steam turbine on the Pennsy only ran for about 5 years and was a single engine. How many ever saw it running? the PRR K4 of which 475 were built ran from about 1918 until 1957 or about 40 years and all over the system. A typical scene of a passenger train on the PRR was much more likely to have a K4 on the point than the Steam Turbine.
Funny you mention the PRR S2. At a recent TCA meet I was discussing the prototype locomotive and how it functioned. I asked a very prominent and past national president how many Lionel made. His response was, "10,000, maybe 20,000". That's when I mentioned there was only 1.
I personally like the working engines that lasted in service for a long time. Yes I am a GG1 freak and that has been done to death, but it also had a lengthy career, and a great track record. I grew up with E8s and E7s pulling commuter trains, riding behind the ubiquitous F40PH on NJT and Amtrak, and see lots of 2nd generation SD and GP units in freight service. Up until just a few years ago, I'd still see an SD40-2 working in a consist of SD70s and GE Dash-9s and GEVOs long after the SD50 and SD60 were gone.
Yep, thousands of the Postwar 681/682 Turbines! There are not enough Lionel scale ones up for sale to have produced anywhere near that amount of them in all the various TMCC/Legacy, Lionel Lines, etc. incarnations combined.
Does anyone know when the additional piping was added?
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bob2 posted:You need to check out postings on the 3-rail scale and 027 forums. A surprising subset of the 3-rail crowd is now counting rivets, big time. Woe to the supplier who puts the wrong bell on an SD-9!
They would be better served if they counted rails instead of rivets. Three Rail Scale is an oxymoron. If we can get them to convert to 2 rail, then you can rag on them to go Proto 48! 
Simon
PS: If 3RS is so wonderful, why aren't YOU doing it??????? 
The suggestion that there has never been a decent SD40-2 in either 2 or 3 rail is incorrect. What has not been mentioned in these postings is Overland's generous production of SD40-2s in brass. 20 different prototypes were offered and sold out. That included 2 different DRGW Tunnel Motors, two different SP Tunnel Motors, and three different UP prototypes. They had cab interiors, in-line single motor flywheel drives (not Tank Drives), and prototype specific details. Granted, you had to get them painted, and when DCC came along, install decoders, but only disenchanted nit-pickers could really fault them. They were, are great. They came at in at $725 per locomotive back in the 1990's. Oddly, that's about what Scott is asking now.
I think that the suggestion that prototype modelers want oddball and rare units is a bit faulty as well. Like other posters have mentioned, prototype railroading in a given Diesel period is about the common, thus multiple units of the same time period being modeled are essential. I live along the X-DRGW Moffat Line. Multiple units always running by my house. I have never seen a working Class I steam engine other than as a nostalgic toy for restoration enthusiasts. That's not a slam, but just a fact. If these persons want to spend their hobby hours and dollars on such a project, power to them. To each their own, I say, but in 1983, on the BN system, were multiple SD40-2s on the head end of trains that passed through my little town in Montana. Multiple units are essential to modeling the time periods after the demise of steam and the transition period, especially in the age of DPU units.
As to reservations, maybe it's time for a real reality check. It's Summer! People are spending their hard earned bucks on vacations, travel, camp for the kids. It's also the season for outside repair and renovation of homes, and let's not forget landscaping! Soon it will be time for kids to go back to school and college. Need I really have to sum up those expenses? As the fall wears on, then many turn their attention back to model railroading as winter approaches. What I expect is that, as Christmas approaches, reservations will increase as modelers count their pennies for the new year. Time will tell.
There will always be persons who will nit pick and complain about very minor minutia in an imported model. I say, "Stick to the big stuff, please." That in MHO will make the 2 rail hobby stronger and moving toward more of what we want as manufacturers compete against each other for market share.....and gentle suggestions about prototype specific details never hurts, and are beneficial, but carping because it's not perfect and will never sell or, " I don't have any interest in this model (fill in your reason), but...." will never catch the ear of an importer, NEVER. I guarantee it. Those friendly faces at the booths have pride, anger, and a number of other emotions, same as you.
Very well stated Mike. Thank you.
I have two blue/yellow warbonnets on order. Last week I sent an e-mail to Scott as to when reservations were closing as I was mulling over reserving two BN units and two SF Kodachromes. He replied that they were getting low reservation returns. I'm surprised. I grew up in the 70's and the SD40-2 was nearly the only locomtive I saw in the San Fernando Valley. Hopefully this is just a hiccup and not a death-knell for the project.
Mojave Mike posted:I have two blue/yellow warbonnets on order. Last week I sent an e-mail to Scott as to when reservations were closing as I was mulling over reserving two BN units and two SF Kodachromes. He replied that they were getting low reservation returns. I'm surprised.
That's because there aren't enough E-units and F-units. The market has to be saturated with those models first before something new can come along.
Perhaps the SD40-2 is too new to generate interest? There are two O gauge 2-rail clubs in the SF Bay Area and several private layouts. They operate the steam to diesel transition era. I see a lot of steam and early diesels (F, E, PA, GP-7s) on these layouts. I don't recall ever seeing a modern diesel or a train with modern equipment on these 2-rail layouts. There aren't very many O gauge 2-rail layouts on Youtube running modern equipment either.
The 3-rail market for the SD40 may be saturated with MTH and Lionel models although those models are not truly accurate.
NH Joe
Matt Makens posted:You can't get the correct truck configuration with the China drive, you need a horizontal tank style drive
That's not true. Atlas has the correct truck placement and correct-sized fuel tank on their SD40's, so does Lionel for that matter.
The MTH Premier SD45's and SD50's also have the correct truck placement and fuel tanks. Drive mechanism has nothing to do with this.
The only reason MTH and Lionel have SD40-2's that are out of proportion is because they are using older tooling that was never updated. If MTH ever re-tooled their SD40-2's like they did with their SD45's about 7 years ago then I probably wouldn't consider a 3rd Rail offering.
I would think it is because there are a good amount of them out there already. I am sure that the third rail edition would be a beauty but the numbers tell the story other folks like I are happy with the SD 40-2 we own now.
PS: If 3RS is so wonderful, why aren't YOU doing it???????
A joke, I hope! I am a doorstop collector - when I need a bell, I grab one and solder it on. I consider it incongruous that a modeler could sweat the details of a tiny bell, yet ignore the track and running gear.
I am a non- discerning 2-railer. My rivets and hand grabs are way too big, and I generally don't do brake shoes. My truck side frames are sand cast. But my track and couplers are realistic, and my gauge fits my scale.
We are all different - good thing, I guess.
Eventually one considers the cost. May be one of the most expensive, plastic, molded diesels available. Price is up another $50 or so dollars beyond the SD 7/9 models. West coast premium shipping to here in the east also adds considerable cost.
??? Are we approaching that $1,000 plastic diesel in a box???
Catnap, I respectfully disagree. The front truck sits too far forward on the frame to get the motor in the cab. It would put the motor forward the cab side windows. the -2 is over 3 feet longer so just adding a sight glass porthole to the engineer side doesn't change its length. My Lionel -2's are too short, they're SD40s
I believe that dude at Mid Western is doing these in brass.
Limey posted:I believe that dude at Mid Western is doing these in brass.
Yes, at about $3000 each!
Mike CT posted:Eventually one considers the cost. May be one of the most expensive, plastic, molded diesels available. Price is up another $50 or so dollars beyond the SD 7/9 models. West coast premium shipping to here in the east also adds considerable cost.
??? Are we approaching that $1,000 plastic diesel in a box???
Yes, the price of plastic models is going up and will continue to climb. Chinese labor costs are steadily climbing upward, especially for highly skilled labor that design 3D CAD models used for CNC machining of injection molds. Wages for machine operators making the actual molds are steadily climbing as well. Auto makers such as BMW and Mercedes have built state of the art factories in China to build higher end autos for the Chinese market since the buying power of the Chinese workforce has grown so much and has so much future growth potential. Even Ferrari sales are through the roof in China. Our quest for RTR equipment doesn’t help much either, labor to assemble the finished models is getting more expensive as well, usually due to the extensive turnover as workers become more skilled they leave to different companies, so the model manufactures have to constantly train new workers all the time and this is expensive. Worker safety is on the rise as well – look and see how many older You Tube videos of labor working in Chinese steel mills, die cast factories with molten vats of zinc, and spinning machine tools (lathes, mills) where workers are not even wearing closed shoes (mostly sandals) , let alone safety glasses – this is changing. The net effect are price increases passed down to the consumer to pay for this.
Except for reruns of old tooling, the day of the new grass roots $500 Atlas Master level O Scale plastic locomotive is over. If Atlas were to release a new Master Line diesel locomotive, the price will be near what 3rd Rail is charging for their currently road-specific models ($650 - $700). I’m sure this is one of the reasons Atlas is reluctant to jump into making a new grass roots O Scale locomotive model, it is a big gamble to invest close to half a million dollars in tooling in a model that may not pay dividends due to its high upfront investment cost to produce and reluctance of the market to absorb these new higher prices. Therefore, the safe bet is to continue to rerun old tooling that has already paid for itself many times over. Also, Atlas needs to recoup their investment for the acquisitions of their share of Weaver and all of BLMA (HO, N Scale). Therefore, the Atlas factories have plenty of Weaver and BLMA product to run so the need for a new grass roots model to fill factory production is not really high on their to-do list. 3rd Rail seems to sell more than it can make with the models they produce as shown by the reruns of the recent E and F unit release so the SD40-2 delay really does not impact any of their factory production obligations either and probably buys some design time for other models that have full reservations. Moral of the story... pay them now or pay them later because the price isn’t going down.
Scott Kay
Austin, TX
Hot Water posted:Limey posted:I believe that dude at Mid Western is doing these in brass.
Yes, at about $3000 each!
Yes, $2850 for the SD45's...next project is the SD40-2.
If i was to stay in O scale after my move I'd think I would have ordered one of these engines but since a future move to smaller digs will stop any more O scale 2 rail purchases. In fact it may lead to me selling off at least 1/2 my hoard of cars and engines. Others I will display on the wall in a new office that I'm imagining bc O scale is such a neat scale to look at.
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Mojave Mike posted:Hot Water posted:Limey posted:I believe that dude at Mid Western is doing these in brass.
Yes, at about $3000 each!
Yes, $2850 for the SD45's...next project is the SD40-2.
Bear in mind the initial project SD 45s are delivering next year, it remains to be seen if the "market" is sufficient to warrant production of the SD 40 -2. The buyers for the SD 45 have fronted substantial dollars to make this project happen. This market has become very limited runs at pricing to reflect this custom work.JMO
'
Scaletrains.com is delivering a road number specific detailed SD40-2 with DCC/Sound (with correct sounds) in HO for ~$200.
From what I understand the cost to design and tool the models is not too different between HO and O. It all comes down to economies of scale and the number of modelers willing to reserve.
I don't see that getting any better for 2R in the future. I wonder how many people will still be in 2 rail in 10 or 15 years?
I plan on being 2 rail all the way by then
Matt Makens posted:I plan on being 2 rail all the way by then
+1
I would be willing to bet that there are at least as many O scale 2- railers today as there were at any time in the past. When I first got into O Scale there were 150 million people in the US, and only All Nation, Walthers, and a few car kits were available. Lobaugh had just stopped meaningful production, and Max Gray was making decals.
We are very lucky. If you do not mind plastic, a truly credible Diesel can be converted for under $200 total. All is not lost.
bob2 posted:You need to check out postings on the 3-rail scale and 027 forums. A surprising subset of the 3-rail crowd is now counting rivets, big time. Woe to the supplier who puts the wrong bell on an SD-9!
Kind of a double edged sword. The manufacturers might add a thing or two to sell their Old tooling for the 5th time - Of course at higher prices.
And then they pimp out that tooling for one last time by adding all of the road specific details - Finally giving people what they want.
suzukovich posted:Here is a thought. If the length of the SD40-2 and the FP or FP45 are the same. Why not offer both as the chassis would be common between the two. Personally I would like to see an U25C or U28C phase 1 as many were used by a variety of roads. As for more modern the DASH 8 would be a good start since it is rooted in the U28C phase 2 new car body.
The next issue as I see it is the limited roads after 73. CONRAIL , SCL, Cheesie System, NW, and Southern in the east. BN, CNW, I, SOO Line in the Midwest, and ATSF, SP, UP, and Western Pacific in the west. The list gets smaller by the 90s CSX, Norfolk Southern, BNSF, and UP. So I can see other issues for modeling modern engines.
Don't forget Milwaukee.
jonnyspeed posted:Scaletrains.com is delivering a road number specific detailed SD40-2 with DCC/Sound (with correct sounds) in HO for ~$200.
From what I understand the cost to design and tool the models is not too different between HO and O. It all comes down to economies of scale and the number of modelers willing to reserve.
I don't see that getting any better for 2R in the future. I wonder how many people will still be in 2 rail in 10 or 15 years?
I'm almost 70. Guess I won't make.
Dick
