Weekend tinplate photos/videos 3/21/19!

Looking North on the second level

Looking South on the second level

Scott Smith

New this week ... Some French Hornby

And I bought this little lot of carriages/wagons

Notice WHY I bought them ?

Luckily the seller also had this which I negotiated for ( had me on the hook lol )

Looks like it did not have a heap of track time ... Winner Lines for me !

American Flyer Steel Mogul Set - Early version with black trucks on cars

Catalog Illustration

...and the set

Bing has been prolific with accessories of all kind, some examples of signals made for specific countries,

Germany with miniature oil lamp, I am still reluctant to test it....

Specific models for France, 4 volts electric lamps, they may be adapted for O and 1 gauge,

A nice model with clockwork ringling system for USA, a little later from the thirties, 

International freight yard crane,

Have a nice weekend, Daniel

Staring to get things back in place after spring cleaning.

Steve

I found some Stadtilm S gauge  cars. Carl Liebermann founded the company Carl Liebmann Metallwerke in Stadtilm (East Germany) after WW2. The company made 0 gauge trains according to the plans Liebmann made in 1938. The factory was transferred in 1951 to the VEB Metallwarenfabrik Stadtilm and the production of 0 gauge was stopped. In 1956 the production of S trains started in Stadtilm. The wagons were mainly made of sheet metal which was either lithographed or painted and decalled. Production stopped in 1964. 

Here a postal/bagage car, a passenger car and a restaurant car:

Regards

Fred

A good friend of mine's wife would do estate sales and every now and then she would find a little train. Most of the time I would pass as I really don't have room for any more trains, well that's the thought anyway. He brought me a couple to look at and a little beat up engine with "AF" caught my attention. He wanted 5 dollars for it so I took it home. After a little cleaning and lube it ran. It was an American Flyer Prewar Whistling Engine. I always thought American Flyer made S gauge and have learned a great deal more about all the wonderful prewar O gauge made by Flyer. 

As it is with these trains, one lead to two, which lead to three, and I now have a few of these wonderful trains. Here's my small collection running on the layout.

Dean

Newly arrived this week

Lionel 821 stock car

and a Lionel 659 Dump Car

O gauge caboose(s). Marklin, Lionel, Marx, Weaver (brass) & 3rd Rail (brass).

WOW! Fred and Daniel never fail with their gems! A tip of my train hat to Fatman and Dean as well for their contributions! And, of course, RSB  for that NICE Flyer set! Keep 'em comin, guys!

picked up a Chad Valley clockwork set this week, less the tender. 3402 loco and 4 Royal Scot passenger coaches. Just need to locate a red tender and I'll have a complete set. 

The coaches are BR I wonder if it is sacrilege to add a red LMS or green Southern tender?

the loco is weighted to be able to pull the longer consist. 

Here's an interesting item that turned up in a Lionel collection that I bought.  It's a prewar American Flyer crossing signal.It's about 8.5 inches tall.  It looks very large next to a Marx or Lionel signal so I'm wondering if it was made for AF wide gauge.  I hope someone can tell us about this signal and whether it is an unusual or rare item.

Jim O'C posted:

picked up a Chad Valley clockwork set this week, less the tender. 3402 loco and 4 Royal Scot passenger coaches. Just need to locate a red tender and I'll have a complete set. 

The coaches are BR I wonder if it is sacrilege to add a red LMS or green Southern tender?

the loco is weighted to be able to pull the longer consist. 

Jim, too many things going on right now, but remind me in a few weeks. Buried deep under the layout may be a red Euro style tender, no promises though. 

Steve

That TALL crossing signal is very interesting, to say the least! Perhaps our two resident Flyer gurus, Greg T. or RSB, will chime in?

FRENCHTRAINS posted:

Bing has been prolific with accessories of all kind, some examples of signals made for specific countries,

Germany with miniature oil lamp, I am still reluctant to test it....

 

Specific models for France, 4 volts electric lamps, they may be adapted for O and 1 gauge,

 

A nice model with clockwork ringling system for USA, a little later from the thirties, 

International freight yard crane,

 

Have a nice weekend, Daniel

 

 

As part of my spring cleaning efforts, mine like this is back on the layout.

Steve

A short test before this weekends club meets. It runs Ok this direction, but the pilot truck derails going through the 57” curves the other direction. I know where the issue is but may leave it alone as long as it runs well on 72” curves. I’ll find out Saturday.

Steve

mlaughlinnyc posted:

Here's an interesting item that turned up in a Lionel collection that I bought.  It's a prewar American Flyer crossing signal.It's about 8.5 inches tall.  It looks very large next to a Marx or Lionel signal so I'm wondering if it was made for AF wide gauge.  I hope someone can tell us about this signal and whether it is an unusual or rare item.

 

Yes, that signal is a good one to get. Harder to find in good condition and for a decent price. It's on my list to find one some day. MTH was supposed to repro these but cancelled it.

John Desantis has one on his layout.

mlaughlinnyc posted:

Here's an interesting item that turned up in a Lionel collection that I bought.  It's a prewar American Flyer crossing signal.It's about 8.5 inches tall.  It looks very large next to a Marx or Lionel signal so I'm wondering if it was made for AF wide gauge.  I hope someone can tell us about this signal and whether it is an unusual or rare item.

According to Doyle's book, 2230 if it's O gauge and 4230 if it's Std gauge. Both 1928-35. My question is Doyle's book correct? Was it made in 2 sizes?

Steve

The Roadside Flashing Signal was given two numbers. Both the 2230 and the 4230 were cataloged 1928 - 1935.  They are not two different sizes.  The difference in the numbering indicated the size of the track that was included in the box.  The 2230 is for Narrow Gauge track and the 4230 is for Wide Gauge Track.  It is very difficult to find the lighted head in an undamaged condition.  I seem to remember that someone reproduced the head for this signal.  Trickel maybe?

I do not have a complete Roadside Flashing Signal in the collection, but I do have the two halves of the base positioned at one of the entries to  the town on the Blueboard Central Division of  American Flyer Lines. Zinc pest did them in.  I was really looking forward to the repro.

Having a Great Tinplate Weekend

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Greg, I love what you did with the base - first time I've ever hit the like button on this forum !  The wording on the signal is perfect for entry to a railroad - doesn't need to have anything to do with a crossing.

What did you mean by undamaged condition in regard to the head.  Mine works.  there is a small chip on one side of the head.  I took it apart and checked the wiring and bulb to be sure it is sound, as I do on anything that I say is working when I put it up for sale.

I've been told by a couple of my local TCA friends that it should bring well over $100 and I plan to put it on my table at the next NETCA meet, and if no interest there it goes to eBay.  I don't collect anything other than early postwar Lionel, so this item is not something I want to keep.

I got my first Standard Gauge layout going in my trainroom Thursday night, here is a photo from the inaugural run.

Craignor posted:

I got my first Standard Gauge layout going in my trainroom Thursday night, here is a photo from the inaugural run.

Very nice! Your off to a good start! 👍

mlaughlinnyc posted:

Greg, I love what you did with the base - first time I've ever hit the like button on this forum !  The wording on the signal is perfect for entry to a railroad - doesn't need to have anything to do with a crossing.

Thanks for the compliment

What did you mean by undamaged condition in regard to the head.  Mine works.  there is a small chip on one side of the head.  I took it apart and checked the wiring and bulb to be sure it is sound,....

Most of the examples of the head that I have seen will show evidence of Zinc Pest. There may be large chunks broken out and missing or significant cracks. At times the head is crumbling.  Even the base is prone to the Pest.  My bases are warped and do not fit together any longer, otherwise I probably would have purchased a reproduction head.  I do like using them as the welcome banners to the layout.  It looks as if the condition of the paint on the head is much better than the condition of the paint on the base which makes me wonder if the head may be a reproduction.  There are original examples out there in perfect condition that have survived without damage. 

I borrowed this image from Google Images - from the auction site worthpoint.com

Do your friends in TCA think the head is original?

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

sncf231e posted:

I found some Stadtilm S gauge  cars. Carl Liebermann founded the company Carl Liebmann Metallwerke in Stadtilm (East Germany) after WW2. The company made 0 gauge trains according to the plans Liebmann made in 1938. The factory was transferred in 1951 to the VEB Metallwarenfabrik Stadtilm and the production of 0 gauge was stopped. In 1956 the production of S trains started in Stadtilm. The wagons were mainly made of sheet metal which was either lithographed or painted and decalled. Production stopped in 1964. 

Here a postal/bagage car, a passenger car and a restaurant car:

Regards

Fred

And here these cars are running in the garden:

Regards

Fred

Greg J. Turinetti posted:

 

The Roadside Flashing Signal was given two numbers. Both the 2230 and the 4230 were cataloged 1928 - 1935.  They are not two different sizes.  The difference in the numbering indicated the size of the track that was included in the box.  The 2230 is for Narrow Gauge track and the 4230 is for Wide Gauge Track.  It is very difficult to find the lighted head in an undamaged condition.  I seem to remember that someone reproduced the head for this signal.  Trickel maybe?

mth had it in a few catalogs ,never made,,,,,ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh,wish they would have love it !

  Help!!! Some time back we were identifying obscure manufacturer's logos.  One of them consisted of a fish with the word "Germany" underneath. I just found a piece with this logo and I can't remember the name of the manufacturer.

Here’s my 2816s going for a spin and, bonus for usttc caboose and ets shorty gondola.

Hello Robert,

the manufacturer Heinrich Fischer had this logo. Here on Binnsroad page:

Heinrich Fischer

Arne

sncf231e posted:

I found some Stadtilm S gauge  cars. Carl Liebermann founded the company Carl Liebmann Metallwerke in Stadtilm (East Germany) after WW2. The company made 0 gauge trains according to the plans Liebmann made in 1938. The factory was transferred in 1951 to the VEB Metallwarenfabrik Stadtilm and the production of 0 gauge was stopped. In 1956 the production of S trains started in Stadtilm. The wagons were mainly made of sheet metal which was either lithographed or painted and decalled. Production stopped in 1964. 

Here a postal/bagage car, a passenger car and a restaurant car:

Regards

Fred

Thanks Fred! Great photos; I had not seen the bigger carriages before, just the four-wheel type. I have some Stadtilm track and one of the little plastic controller cases. The track isn't bad for stamped tinplate and fibre base. My American Flyer locomotives will run on it but the Stadtilm track gauge seems slightly wider - I refer to them as Capitalist trains on Communist track... 

Greg J. Turinetti posted:

mlaughlinnyc posted:

Greg, I love what you did with the base - first time I've ever hit the like button on this forum !  The wording on the signal is perfect for entry to a railroad - doesn't need to have anything to do with a crossing.

Thanks for the compliment

What did you mean by undamaged condition in regard to the head.  Mine works.  there is a small chip on one side of the head.  I took it apart and checked the wiring and bulb to be sure it is sound,....

Most of the examples of the head that I have seen will show evidence of Zinc Pest. There may be large chunks broken out and missing or significant cracks. At times the head is crumbling.  Even the base is prone to the Pest.  My bases are warped and do not fit together any longer, otherwise I probably would have purchased a reproduction head.  I do like using them as the welcome banners to the layout.  It looks as if the condition of the paint on the head is much better than the condition of the paint on the base which makes me wonder if the head may be a reproduction.  There are original examples out there in perfect condition that have survived without damage. 

I borrowed this image from Google Images - from the auction site worthpoint.com

Do your friends in TCA think the head is original?

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Well Greg I feel pretty sure it's original.  I took it apart and took some photos.  More about later this evening or tomorrow.  First I want to write something about my amazing find at the Greenberg show today.

This morning I went to the Greenger show in Wilmington (MA).  I go there mainly to talk and to talk with other TCA people about the repair seminar I'm doing at our april  meet.  Problem with that ahow is you can't make money buying from people who usually know what something is worth.

I saw this well worn 252 loco and the 529-529-530 passenger set.  Looked like something interesting to play with.  Picked up the engine and found the wheels wouldn't turn.  Made an offer and got the whole set at a below Filene's basement type price.  Checking the new Greenberg O Gauge book, I find that I have Outfit 294, 1928 version.

Speaking of the Greenberg book, I was feeling relatively wealthy a few months ago and went for his $100 new O Gauge book - for someone wih a flow of prewar tinplate through the shop, it's a great value.

Looking on eBay, I see that I can easily get more for the cars than I paid for the set.  So I have a FREE locomotive.  I'm like a happy kid going to the playground (workshop) with a new toy.  Now we'll take a look at that 252.

Electrical part looks fixable - need a handle for the reverser - Harry H, if you're looking  do you have that part ? 

But nothing will get those wheels to turn.  The zinc pest has struck again !!!

Next step of course is to get out the wheel puller.  Wheels don't budge, but most of the flanges chip off while I'm trying.  Time for the brute force approach - always use tools big enough for the job.

A hammer and nail set and a big piece of iron to set the motor on will has always worked for me.  My father had some good tools.  That's his vise from the 30's that is holding the motor frame.

About all that is usable from the wheels will be the steel rims.  Any use for them, or shouId I trash them with the wheels.

No feasible repair job here, so the 252 is in the sell for parts line now.Bodies and frames always sell.  I coudl get MEW wheels for $40, but can't recover that.  Tomorrow, I'll put the brush plate back together and see if the motor turns.  Anyway it's all profit - the motor was free :-)

Ives standard gauge 3243R w/ matching set of 180-181-182 passenger cars. One of my favorite sets, we picked it up at the TTOS Cal Stewart meet in 2015. It hadn't been on the layout in a while, always a fun set to run.

Thanks Arne, much appreciated.

Greg J. Turinetti posted:

 

 

Do your friends in TCA think the head is original?

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Here are a few more photos.  I don't think they look like a reproduction.  Note the chips from the head and a crack in the paint.  It looks like the factory mounted the head before paint was completely dry - note the green around the top of the base.  It is clear that the wiring is original right to the top.  With all of the cracks I had to be careful not to cause a short while I tested it.

In my opinion, the paint coming off on the base and the lens means the head was repainted with a soft paint and installed before dry. That’s not factory. The paint loss is due to quality, not age. The head casting also looks significantly newer than the base. There are casting defects, which may date the casting. Not sure that is original, but it’s still valuable, just to a lesser extent.

George

Thanks George.  Repainting the head makes sense.  It may have deteriorated as much as the base.  I could see repainting just the head to have a reasonable looking signal.

If the head was a later reproduction, when might that have been done.  With the chips and crack, it must have been before they got good quality control on the casting metal.  But if repainted why would you think it's not the original.

Now I've got to put a price tag on it.  One of the local TCA guys, a dealer well known as a cheapskate offered $50 without even seeing it.  I'm thinking of putting it in an eBay auction with a $95 opening bid.

I found two sales upon a quick look. One at Stout in 2008 and the other at Bertoia in 2016. Both went for $250, but were in a little nicer condition than yours. The Bertoia one had a box and track. I would think starting at $95 would be reasonable. Don’t use the offer feature. It’s annoying for something like this. The first bid wipes it out anyway.

Even new castings can have zinc pest. I think the screw mounts seem a little too perfect on your head. It would normally come unpainted. So, that explains the paint. Either way, if you aren’t keeping it, an auction should help get the true value. You should probably say “possible replacement parts or restoration”.

Good luck!

George

George S posted:

I found two sales upon a quick look. One at Stout in 2008 and the other at Bertoia in 2016. Both went for $250, but were in a little nicer condition than yours. The Bertoia one had a box and track. I would think starting at $95 would be reasonable. Don’t use the offer feature. It’s annoying for something like this. The first bid wipes it out anyway.

Even new castings can have zinc pest. I think the screw mounts seem a little too perfect on your head. It would normally come unpainted. So, that explains the paint. Either way, if you aren’t keeping it, an auction should help get the true value. You should probably say “possible replacement parts or restoration”.

Good luck!

George

Thanks for the help George, it'll go on auction this week.

Maybe MTH would reconsider making a quality repro? Maybe they could do a BTO quantity?

I wouldn't care for that at all.  Repros hurt the market for the real thing.

Perhaps, but NOT everyone is a collector. Many of us are operators who prefer new and shiny, and the originals should always be worth more to collectors. It is a big tent.

I have a lot of stuff, but still consider myself an operator, not a collector. I throw my stuff in boxes and drag it to shows and meets etc to share and run, so I tend to stay away from originals.

Steve

The main goal is to ENJOY whatever you have!

I think the repro market has a place , but I would love to see anything repro MARKED as such , or has enough of a physical difference so it is easily spotted ... Direct 1:1 repros do hurt the collector market because you will always get someone uneducated or unscrupulous enough, to be trying to pass it off as an original at some time in its future ... I would rather see a company making something completely ORIGINAL along the same lines or taking visual cues off something that has a potential future of BECOMING its own "collectible " and in that way positively contributing to the hobby in the long run, not only by increasing the market range, but doing it affordably rather than pioneering itself at 90% of the asking price or more of an original and riding the coat-tails of desire-ability...

Lets face it 99% of our sort after vintage beauties did not originaly present themselves as being collectible, but rather they were an affordable exercise to add to the hobby .. it is time, patina, and survivabilty that made them have a value that has increased , rather than an inflated sense of worth due to artificially boosting their desire or limiting their production by going for the big score markup initially ... our forefathers saw the sense is selling 10,000 products for $5 profit each , rather than selling 100 products for $200 profit each.

The latter example builds personal wealth, the former builds nations The former gives employment over the long term, it allows more people to engage with the company, and it helps retailers, workers, and the purchaser get the better deal... Too often its all about the quick high value $$$ grab

( steps off soapbox)

oh and as @Tinplate Art

Says "The main goal is to ENJOY whatever you have! "

FATMAN: We will have to agree to disagree. What you essentially espouse is akin to collector snobbery. Accepting a less than identical reproduction, properly marked as per TCA standards, would be unacceptable. Without the fine repro work of MTH and others, those of us who desire pristine examples of classic tinplate trains and accessories would otherwise not be able to afford them.

@Tinplate Art

Please dont think I am going down the collector snobbery path because that is not my motivation whatsoever for the previous post or my love of collecting (mainly) clockwork trains

 I certainly have no problem with any particular manufacturer reproducing the style of things gone by , and selling them at an affordable price point, thats part of any hobby , they also help limit the sometimes astronomical costs of the "real deal " item ,be that for good or bad ...I personally do not "collect" as an asset building exercise or to resell at a profit... for what its worth I have not sold a train for profit full stop , my collecting is of things that inspire or interest me , its a lousy financial decision and when I pass there will be one hell of an estate sale in which I predict things will sell at bargain prices as my relatives have little idea of worth or investment in them LOL!

I just think that a reproduction should be able to stand on the merits of its production and admit to what it is in such a way that it too will become a collectible in its own right in its own time That could be as simple as a tiny pressed "By XXX" stamped in an out of the way place not clearly visible, but accessible to deter future confusion.

To be completely honest I CANT AFFORD MTH etc LOL , I am a low level collector on a fixed income that many people would struggle to live on, so we are probably approaching the hobby from vastly different circumstances

I just think there is something more ethical about stamping your name on something you are proud of and giving that product a life of its own and the opportunity to be a collectible in its own right .

Remember in this context I was not commenting on MTH or anyone in particular, but it was regarding the signal itself in question which is beautiful and is not reproduced at this time , but if it were to be reproduced I personaly would love to see it in a form where it could stand on its own, no matter who did it .

Else how else would the next generation of "collectors" have items to choose from ?

We would just be buying and selling old stuff and new old stuff , and new new old stuff

On the other hand, how many collectors could find an excellent original Marklin Leipszig Station at a price they could afford? IF they could even find one of these priceless gems, most could never afford one. Enter MTH with its recently released replica of this beautiful station in an equally handsome replica box. I rest my case. Again, respectfully, we will have to agree to disagree.

I will now step off my soapbox. LOL!

Tinplate Art posted:

On the other hand, how many collectors could find an excellent original Marklin Leipszig Station at a price they could afford? IF they could even find one of these priceless gems, most could never afford one. Enter MTH with its recently released replica of this beautiful station in an equally handsome replica box. I rest my case. Again, respectfully, we will have to agree to disagree.

LOL OK you got me ( kinda) there ... but in resting my case imagine if they produced an equally as stunning building with the same build quality and packaging with "Dresden Hauptbahnhof" instead of Leipzig

That way it stands on its own and is collectible in its own right ...

But yes we agree to respectfully disagree ( and that is more than ok ... I do have an enormous respect for you thru your posts here )

Tinplate Art posted:

I will now step off my soapbox. LOL!

Ok ... NOW I promise

FATMAN: I also enjoy your posts, your collection and knowledge shared here!  THANK YOU! ☺

FATMAN and TINPLATE ART, thank you for this discussion and the respectable and honorable fashion in which you carry it out. When people can respectfully agree to disagree it make this hobby and this forum much more enjoyable. 

I would rather see more MTH type originals than exactly reproducing Lionel.  I've got a nice example on my desk right now that I'm selling for my model railroad club.  It's a 260E with a builders p[late that says "Mike's Train House".  It's gunmetal with an eight wheel tender, a combination that Lionel never made and the tender says New York Central Lines.  So it could never be confused with a locomotive made in the 1930's.

Reproductions are OK and I don't think much about them either way.  As I've said before, what I really wish one of the manufacturers would do is turn out some 9 1/2" litho boxcars with side lithography to match ANY of the billboard reefer schemes that Atlas has offered in O scale.  If they did I'd have to go into serious negotiations with the family CFO concerning volume purchases. 

Craignor posted:

I got my first Standard Gauge layout going in my trainroom Thursday night, here is a photo from the inaugural run.

Great start Craig - nice room!

Jim

mlaughlinnyc posted:

George S posted:

I found two sales upon a quick look. One at Stout in 2008 and the other at Bertoia in 2016. Both went for $250, but were in a little nicer condition than yours. The Bertoia one had a box and track. I would think starting at $95 would be reasonable. Don’t use the offer feature. It’s annoying for something like this. The first bid wipes it out anyway.

Even new castings can have zinc pest. I think the screw mounts seem a little too perfect on your head. It would normally come unpainted. So, that explains the paint. Either way, if you aren’t keeping it, an auction should help get the true value. You should probably say “possible replacement parts or restoration”.

Good luck!

George

Thanks for the help George, it'll go on auction this week.

For those who would like to follow this story to the end, it's now listed as "American Flyer 2230 / 4230 Prewar Roadside Flashing Signal" on a 10 day auction.