What did MPC do differently?

The first time I re-entered the hobby was when I moved to NYC in the very early 80s.  I lived on 26th & 6th... four blocks from Madison Hardware ...where, I spent entirely too much time.  A few years later I purchased my first and the first issue of Classic Toy Trains at Madison Hardware... I think around '88... and, (if, I remember correctly) Richard Kughn was on the cover.  It was not long thereafter that the Semi(s) rolled up... and Madison Hardware was no more... sigh...

feeling sentimental... or, maybe just mental

Silver Lake posted:

I thought Fundimensions was the name it went under in 1985 after the spin off and before Kughn purchased it.

 

Is the one year Kenner- Parker period still considered part oF MPC Because it is so short?

Yes--the numbering system they used ties back with MPC and it's certainly not part of LTI. Besides, we have enough eras to contend with!

Glad this thread re-surfaced......a lot of fun stuff here!

Peter

seaboard streak posted:

Originally Posted by Jim 1939:

Some only see the worst but MPC did a lot of great things with Lionel trains including near copies of postwar items with real RR names and colors.

I am only telling my exsprance as a kid.Ever consider some see the worst because they exspraneced the worst?You know I did mention the 736 that I got later on.On how it was way better all around train.I still have it it was the first o gauge I got.Lets not forget how many times lionel was passed around.And my exsprance was some time ago.Mrs Kulich asked a question and I answered it.My friend this is what my story with mpc trains.It not a cheapshot when their is turth to it.Some of other o gauge manufacters have had their own lemons as well.To phase something I seen and heard in a christmas cartoon."You like what you like.And I will like what I like."Goodevening friends! 

My EXPERIENCE, was much different than yours, MY 736 NEVER ran well and was one of the few train purchases that I ever regretted, my MPC locomotives on the other hand all ran well. Lionel Lines on the tender never appealed to me, bothered me more than the center rail did, and was the main reason that I didn't get into O Gauge sooner.

Yep, we each like what we Like, and we obviously like different things,

Doug

MY 736 NEVER ran well and was one of the few train purchases that I ever regretted, my MPC locomotives on the other hand all ran well.

In my experience, the 1960's Berkshires do not always run as well as the earlier ones. Some tweaking is needed sometimes.
Most of the MPC locomotives I've handled ran well, especially the diesels. But some of the steamers had problems. Again, some locos did require tweaking.

I like them all, so long as they don't have too much in the way of circuit boards.

The SD40s came after the GP size SD20. They were good pullers as long as the armature was lubed and adjusted for play.

C W Burfle posted:

MY 736 NEVER ran well and was one of the few train purchases that I ever regretted, my MPC locomotives on the other hand all ran well.

In my experience, the 1960's Berkshires do not always run as well as the earlier ones. Some tweaking is needed sometimes.
Most of the MPC locomotives I've handled ran well, especially the diesels. But some of the steamers had problems. Again, some locos did require tweaking.

I like them all, so long as they don't have too much in the way of circuit boards.

Hi CW,

 I was never really interested in the PW stuff, but I had read here and on the CTT forum all the posts from those that LOVE PW, that I bought the 736, and well, it just never gave ME the Warm Fuzzies that many get from PW. As I mentioned earlier, the Lionel Lines on the tender, was another thing with PW that just did not endear it to me.

 Some tweaking is needed sometimes, Many ENJOY tinkering with their trains, I am not one of those, for ME, RUNNING the trains is what I find relaxing.

 As far as the circuit boards go, I LOVE, what they can do for the trains, WHEN they work properly, Unfortunately, all too often the circuit boards develop issues and take a lot of the relaxation out of running trains, and are often beyond the tinkering with, that even those that DO enjoy tinkering can deal with.

We all Enjoy the Hobby in our own ways, I am not one who enjoys PW, or Tinkering, but understand many DO, and if that is how they enjoy the hobby.

Doug

We all Enjoy the Hobby in our own ways, I am not one who enjoys PW, or Tinkering, but understand many DO, and if that is how they enjoy the hobby.

Sorry if my post came off as being critical of yours. I actually meant it to be the exact opposite.
As you've written, there are lots of ways to enjoy "O" gauge trains. None of them are better or worse than any others. To each their own.

Hi CW, No Worries, I did not take your post as being critical, and I was trying to not sound critical in my reply as well.

We have occasionally disagreed on some issues, but I have always found your posts to be interesting, even if we saw things from a different perspective. Your thoughts, opinions and comments have always been appreciated(at least by ME anyway).

Trains are SUPPOSED to be FUN,

Doug

MPC did what the Lionel Corp had refused to do for most of the 1960s. It innovated! When people think of MPC, they think of postwar retreads in new paint, but the story is much more complicated than that. Yes, they reused pretty much everything--the only major exception being the Scout motor. But they also did a lot of new things. Not all of them would be considered improvements by everybody, but they were all innovations, evidence that the line was being taken seriously and invested in. Here are the ones I could think of off the top of my head, between 1970-1986.

Mechanical/electrical:

1. The inverted frame for the GP 7/9, which allowed the motor from the NW 2 and Alco to be used on the Geeps as well.
2. This same motor used a redesigned plastic bottom plate. It was staked in more firmly than the 1950s version, and it included mounts for pickup rollers.
3. Fast-angle wheels
4. Needle-point bearings
5. Delrin trucks
6. The Thumbtack (not our favorite, perhaps, but worked reasonably well, and saved money)
7. The plastic truck rivet (a penny saved is a penny earned, right?)
8. Diecast Metal Sprung trucks
9. All-Diecast six-wheel passenger trucks
10. Electronic Whistle and Horn with controller. The controller unfortunately failed, so the electronic whistle and horn were re-introduced later with different sounds.
11. Mighty Sound of Steam (new to Lionel, though Marx had Sound 'O Power first)
12. The horizontal, truck-mounted can motor
13. Electronic e-unit
14. Puffing "cylinder steam" effect
15. Mechanical Sound of Steam (aka box 'o bee-bees)

New or modified engines

16. Two new 0-4-0 steam switchers (one saddle tanker, and one kind of generic)
17. Modified pilot assy turned 1615-style switcher into a 2-4-0
18. Redesigned Vulcan switcher with can motor
19. Chopped-nose Geep
20. Six-wheel EMD-style trucks
21. U-Boats
22. SD-40s
23. N&W J turned into a SP GS-4
24. "Elephant Ear" Smoke Deflectors

Rolling Stock

25. Baby Madison passenger cars
26. Totally redesigned 0-27 streamliners
27. Smooth-sided aluminum passenger cars
28. Min-Max cars modeled on General Mills plant railroad prototypes.
29. New 6464-type boxcar body style with molded-in lower door-guide
30. Auto Racks
31. Bunk Car
32. Four-wheel cars: used in low-end Kickapoo Valley and Timberline sets. Of these, these bobber caboose and the crane car (redesigned with regular trucks) also appeared in other sets.
33. Plastic Frames for SP caboose, "Plug Door" Boxcar, and short single-dome tank car
34. Transfer Caboose
35. Standard-O Cars: Boxcar, Reefer Gondola, Woodside Caboose
36. Extended Vision Caboose
37. Ore Car
38. Two new traditional-sized reefers: One with all-new wood sides and roof; the other, the postwar Mechanical Reefer, modified to have wood sides.
39. Hi-Cube Boxcars

Decoration, Marketing, etc.

40. Vastly improved decoration across the board, with new techniques, such as electrocal and tampo
41. Far, far more road names. Names of contemporary railroads and short lines.
42. Color! Especially on steam engines
43. Two lines, sometimes with two catalogs: Traditional and Collector
44. Inclusion of non-train toys in train sets (the Corp did this too, but MPC took it much further, even to the point of building a complete playset around the train and selling it in one box, in the Trains 'n Truckin' and Logging Empire sets)
45. Including playmats in sets
46. Set box covered with a single, dramatic oil painting which depicts the actual set contents in a railroad setting.
47. Special packaging for expensive sets with top-shelf components
48. The Service Station Special sets
49. Special series: Famous Name, Tobacco Road, Favorite Spirits, the J.C. Penny series of collector locomotives, the Famous American Railroad series, Fallen Flags series
50. Plastic Building kits, lots of 'em!
51. Operating drawbridge

There! 51 things which MPC did, that the Lionel Corp either never tried at all, or never tried with conviction.

nickaix posted:

MPC did what the Lionel Corp had refused to do for most of the 1960s. It innovated! When people think of MPC, they think of postwar retreads in new paint, but the story is much more complicated than that. Yes, they reused pretty much everything--the only major exception being the Scout motor. But they also did a lot of new things. Not all of them would be considered improvements by everybody, but they were all innovations, evidence that the line was being taken seriously and invested in. Here are the ones I could think of off the top of my head, between 1970-1986.

Mechanical/electrical:

1. The inverted frame for the GP 7/9, which allowed the motor from the NW 2 and Alco to be used on the Geeps as well.
2. This same motor used a redesigned plastic bottom plate. It was staked in more firmly than the 1950s version, and it included mounts for pickup rollers.
3. Fast-angle wheels
4. Needle-point bearings
5. Delrin trucks
6. The Thumbtack (not our favorite, perhaps, but worked reasonably well, and saved money)
7. The plastic truck rivet (a penny saved is a penny earned, right?)
8. Diecast Metal Sprung trucks
9. All-Diecast six-wheel passenger trucks
10. Electronic Whistle and Horn with controller. The controller unfortunately failed, so the electronic whistle and horn were re-introduced later with different sounds.
11. Mighty Sound of Steam (new to Lionel, though Marx had Sound 'O Power first)
12. The horizontal, truck-mounted can motor
13. Electronic e-unit
14. Puffing "cylinder steam" effect
15. Mechanical Sound of Steam (aka box 'o bee-bees)

New or modified engines

16. Two new 0-4-0 steam switchers (one saddle tanker, and one kind of generic)
17. Modified pilot assy turned 1615-style switcher into a 2-4-0
18. Redesigned Vulcan switcher with can motor
19. Chopped-nose Geep
20. Six-wheel EMD-style trucks
21. U-Boats
22. SD-40s
23. N&W J turned into a SP GS-4
24. "Elephant Ear" Smoke Deflectors

Rolling Stock

25. Baby Madison passenger cars
26. Totally redesigned 0-27 streamliners
27. Smooth-sided aluminum passenger cars
28. Min-Max cars modeled on General Mills plant railroad prototypes.
29. New 6464-type boxcar body style with molded-in lower door-guide
30. Auto Racks
31. Bunk Car
32. Four-wheel cars: used in low-end Kickapoo Valley and Timberline sets. Of these, these bobber caboose and the crane car (redesigned with regular trucks) also appeared in other sets.
33. Plastic Frames for SP caboose, "Plug Door" Boxcar, and short single-dome tank car
34. Transfer Caboose
35. Standard-O Cars: Boxcar, Reefer Gondola, Woodside Caboose
36. Extended Vision Caboose
37. Ore Car
38. Two new traditional-sized reefers: One with all-new wood sides and roof; the other, the postwar Mechanical Reefer, modified to have wood sides.
39. Hi-Cube Boxcars

Decoration, Marketing, etc.

40. Vastly improved decoration across the board, with new techniques, such as electrocal and tampo
41. Far, far more road names. Names of contemporary railroads and short lines.
42. Color! Especially on steam engines
43. Two lines, sometimes with two catalogs: Traditional and Collector
44. Inclusion of non-train toys in train sets (the Corp did this too, but MPC took it much further, even to the point of building a complete playset around the train and selling it in one box, in the Trains 'n Truckin' and Logging Empire sets)
45. Including playmats in sets
46. Set box covered with a single, dramatic oil painting which depicts the actual set contents in a railroad setting.
47. Special packaging for expensive sets with top-shelf components
48. The Service Station Special sets
49. Special series: Famous Name, Tobacco Road, Favorite Spirits, the J.C. Penny series of collector locomotives, the Famous American Railroad series, Fallen Flags series
50. Plastic Building kits, lots of 'em!
51. Operating drawbridge

There! 51 things which MPC did, that the Lionel Corp either never tried at all, or never tried with conviction.

3.  Not sure how much difference it made to me.  I operated mostly operating freight cars.

6.  A definite thumbs down.

8.  Magnificent.

9.  Ditto.

13.  Another improvement.

19.  Ditto.

20.  One of the best IMHO.

25.  I liked them alot.

35. Ditto.

40.  Goes without saying.

51.  A nice action piece.

Thanks to Nick for putting that list together.

Jim Sutter, if you are still watching this thread, I always love pictures from your train shop!

Rod

My second train set was a little Rock Island starter set. Very cheaply built compared to some. I remember being less than impressed because I wanted a deisel set. The paper bridge and station didn't last too long either. I have a few fundimensions/mpc pieces. I actually just found the coke set with the three boxcars. Will do some upgrades. Quality being an issue I recently purchased a Texas special f3 AB set new in box from a dealer and there were issues right out of the box. So there seems to be good or bad in all levels in my experience.

Rod Stewart,

Thank you for your comment about our store. I always tried to have a large selection of "New" MPC freight cars up thru 1997.  Those pictures were taken in 1997 when we had around 600 different freight cars. I really loved, selling MPC.

I run Amtrak F3 units with 2400 type passenger cars.  Nice combo.  Plus I add some Santa Fe 2400 PW.  During that time on Amtrak was in its rainbow era.

Hi Everyone,  I really enjoy this thread.  About all that I could afford during the MPC era were the catalogs.  I did save some money here and there for the 3100 Great Northern engine and cars from 1981. As  I recall, my rent was about the same as the engine and cars.  After reentering the hobby around 2000, I found that O gauge trains are a bit like pizza,  its all good.  Like others, I enjoy the color, variety and prices for vintage MPC.  A few years ago, I built a retro 027 gauge layout in a spare bedroom dedicated to 027 and MPC.  For some reason, I really like the porthole cabooses, and starting acquiring them, mostly on the Trainz auctions.  They are really inexpensive.  The most recent acquisition was the N&W painted in bicentennial colors. I had not seen one for a while, but one came up a few weeks ago, but it was with the engine.  They looked good together, so for the princely sum of $37 and change I won it.  

For an engine over 40 years old, it looked like it was rarely run,  I did clean the gears, and gear box, and added new grease.  I was aided by the fact that Lionel still makes available the parts diagrams and lists, in their "Supplements" which you can find in the service documents.  It makes it easy to identify brushes, traction tires, light bulbs, etc.  For some silly reason, the shell did not have the dynamic brake hatch, which I will order from the Train Tender  I am posting some pictures to let you see how simple the engine is under the hood.  Interesting that the light bulb for the caboose is the same as it is for the engine.  CW always says to order extra parts,  so its great to have spares that can fit multiple items!

This first picture shows the frame with the 3 position E-Unit and Pullmor motor.  There are two lights. There are two pick up rollers under the front truck. No horn.  

This is the motor,  you only need to remove the two screws on the top.

This is the caboose,  the picture does not do it just justice,  The red is more vibrant. 

This is the right side of the layout.  I added a display track.  The Porthole cabooses are there for all to see!

I can run two trains, the upper level is a vintage 2037 engine and some MPC rolling stock. Some vintage 027 passenger cars are on the mainline.

The marching band are kind of hidden.   

These are display shelves below the layout.  The tracks have power, so I can light everything up.  

This is part of an old hutch that has some shelves. It shares space with vintage baseball cards, If the boxes are nice, I will keep them, but if stained or in rough shape, they get tossed.  

the last two documents are PDFs of the pages for the GP7 - GP9 and their motor and trucks.  

All the best, 

Brewman1973 posted:

Hi Everyone,  I really enjoy this thread.  About all that I could afford during the MPC era were the catalogs.  I did save some money here and there for the 3100 Great Northern engine and cars from 1981. As  I recall, my rent was about the same as the engine and cars.  After reentering the hobby around 2000, I found that O gauge trains are a bit like pizza,  its all good.  Like others, I enjoy the color, variety and prices for vintage MPC.  A few years ago, I built a retro 027 gauge layout in a spare bedroom dedicated to 027 and MPC.  For some reason, I really like the porthole cabooses, and starting acquiring them, mostly on the Trainz auctions.  They are really inexpensive.  The most recent acquisition was the N&W painted in bicentennial colors. I had not seen one for a while, but one came up a few weeks ago, but it was with the engine.  They looked good together, so for the princely sum of $37 and change I won it.  

For an engine over 40 years old, it looked like it was rarely run,  I did clean the gears, and gear box, and added new grease.  I was aided by the fact that Lionel still makes available the parts diagrams and lists, in their "Supplements" which you can find in the service documents.  It makes it easy to identify brushes, traction tires, light bulbs, etc.  For some silly reason, the shell did not have the dynamic brake hatch, which I will order from the Train Tender  I am posting some pictures to let you see how simple the engine is under the hood.  Interesting that the light bulb for the caboose is the same as it is for the engine.  CW always says to order extra parts,  so its great to have spares that can fit multiple items!

This first picture shows the frame with the 3 position E-Unit and Pullmor motor.  There are two lights. There are two pick up rollers under the front truck. No horn.  

 

This is the motor,  you only need to remove the two screws on the top.

This is the caboose,  the picture does not do it just justice,  The red is more vibrant. 

 

This is the right side of the layout.  I added a display track.  The Porthole cabooses are there for all to see!

I can run two trains, the upper level is a vintage 2037 engine and some MPC rolling stock. Some vintage 027 passenger cars are on the mainline.

The marching band are kind of hidden.   

 

These are display shelves below the layout.  The tracks have power, so I can light everything up.  

This is part of an old hutch that has some shelves. It shares space with vintage baseball cards, If the boxes are nice, I will keep them, but if stained or in rough shape, they get tossed.  

the last two documents are PDFs of the pages for the GP7 - GP9 and their motor and trucks.  

All the best, 

I enjoyed seeing your layout . It reminds me a whole lot of the first Lionel layout I put together after I got back into the Hobby in the mid-1980's. Good work!