How about an ALCO FA1, only Williams made one the shell is OK, but the trucks are terrible.
FA is definitely on the radar.
Matt, we can discuss off line how to better supply customers with these.
Scott
Grand Canyon Railroad FPA-4's
You gotta love the electrical power plant.
Mike CT posted:
You gotta love the electrical power plant.
Which is rebuilt from an ex-VIA steam generator car similar to this one:
Rusty
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Scott, Fantastic news all around on the PA's! Look forward to these enticing enhancements! 
DKDKRD,
I disagree on the E1. I do agree that it is a very significant locomotive, you are right about that. But as a model railroader, rather than a collector, I am only interested in models of locomotives that ran the railroad that I model. I don't have the space or resources to buy stuff that does not fit what I am doing. In my case it is the Pennsylvania RR. And given space considerations, I need to stay with smaller stuff. I think passenger Sharks and Centipedes are neat and PRR had them, but those big 6 axle units would dwarf my passenger trains and my layout. So I stay away from them too. I like to look at Santa Fe stuff in photos, but I would not be the least interested in a Santa Fe model.
I kind of wonder if many model railroaders think that way.
I would like to see something nobody has done yet Like an SDP-45 , Alco HH660, or a baby face
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How many railroads had SDP-45s?
Matt Makens posted:How many railroads had SDP-45s?
Well, technically the Erie Lackawanna SDP45 units were not REALLY full SDP45s, i.e. they did NOT have steam generators back there in the long hood. The E-L ordered them in order to get bigger fuel tanks, as the SDP version had a longer underframe than the standard SD45, which was all they wanted. Thus, in order to get a larger fuel tank, EMD made them a "special" SDP45 without all the passenger stuff.
Anyway, just from memory, the railroads that purchased REAL EMD SDP45 units were SP and GN. Can't remember any others.
Mike Caddell posted:LAIDOFFSICK,
They are being tempted by something not available from Brand M and L: more accurate and crisper details, improved drive train, prototypical appearance, accurate paint scheme/color, etc. It's why some people buy brass models. As was said, there is nothing that Sunset can import that Brand M and Brand L can't rush to market as a cheaper and less than satisfying alternative to a prototypical scale model. So the difference in the $$$ is a better model. Some will ante up for that, others won't. What the former group is hoping to capture is enough reservations (and people willing to follow through on those reservations) so that the model can be made. Obviously, there weren't enough of said persons stepping up at this time to make the SD40-2 run a reality....however, that doesn't preclude another announcement that would garner enough reservations to carry the run, but the question must first be asked before the community can respond.
Well then why were the Santa Fe Hudsons cancelled twice? now the SD40s? Obviously crisper details on models that are already out there just isn't enough when it comes to several hundred dollars more.
sdmann posted:Some Exciting News Regarding the PAs:
We are adding operating (Manually) Louvers on the sides of each unit. They are actually built up from 20 or so brass pieces. Interesting note, my father imported O Scale PAs in the 1980s and they too had manual louvers.
We will be putting 2 Rail pilots and Kadee mounts in every 3 Rail box. SF and D&H models will have stainless steel panels (Nickel Plated Brass) applied as we have done in the past, not sprayed on, and the rain gutters will also be made of the same material, applied separately. That's something you don't get from anyone else.
We will make these mounts standard equipment on all our future Diesel offerings. The Alco PAs are going into production now and should be done in January or February. Looking forward to posting pictures of this fine scale offering as they are completed. Reservations are full, but as always people sometimes have to drop out, and that means stand by reservations get those models. And yes, we never require a deposit, but some dealers do. More later.
Regards,
Scott Mann - China
That is excellent news!
Swafford,
I was wondering when you were going to "wade" in. Excellent choices along with B&O and C&O! SP had -2, along with GP40X and GP40P. Go Cotton Belt! I believe that DRGW units had small lettering as well as large although I could be wrong. The small lettering might have been GP40 only. So many road names and variations.
Hot Water posted:Matt Makens posted:How many railroads had SDP-45s?
Well, technically the Erie Lackawanna SDP45 units were not REALLY full SDP45s, i.e. they did NOT have steam generators back there in the long hood. The E-L ordered them in order to get bigger fuel tanks, as the SDP version had a longer underframe than the standard SD45, which was all they wanted. Thus, in order to get a larger fuel tank, EMD made them a "special" SDP45 without all the passenger stuff.
Anyway, just from memory, the railroads that purchased REAL EMD SDP45 units were SP and GN. Can't remember any others.
MMW could only get sufficient reservations to do the SP version. And I think I have a significant percentage of those reserved.
As I recall EL also had SD45-2s with the larger fuel tank MMW might have included that version or the NS heritage rebuilt version done in EL colors.
I think the 150 reservations, or 500 or whatever, is to some extent price=point driven. In other words, if the importer wants to sell at a certain price, he basis his build/reservations on however many units he needs to hit economy of scale to maintain that price. So if the importer is willing to let the cost float to whatever it takes (and therefore the selling price), he can build a much smaller batch. On the other hand, if he thinks they won't sell if he has to price them above a certain point, he has to build a bigger batch.
Scott Mann has alluded to this in some of his comments about the business.
I believe that applies much more to the brass models as these are hand built and much more skilled labor intensive, the reason MMW is able to offer as few as 3 pieces of a particular rd name/variation [obviously this is reflected in the ultimate pricing of such short run models], in the plastic models Scott has stressed at least 20 of a particular rd name with a limited detail variation from the main tooling, paint work and lettering is also a factor in short runs.
Swafford,
Awe, Yes! Tiger Stripes! Go BIG and GREEN! I think very little tooling would be necessary to create the GP50 from the 40-2. What a huge, huge gap in O scale could be filled with production of both models. Maybe a big run of GP40-2 would nudge Atlas into another run of GP60/M/Bs. Maybe even some fantasy roads. Love those Katy Colors!
645
I'd consider some late SDP40Fs for my OMI SuperLiner Cars. I'm certainly no expert, but I think they, and the FP45, got a raw deal from Amtrak over supposed derailing issues.
Mike Caddell posted:Swafford,
I'm certainly no expert, but I think they, and the FP45, got a raw deal from Amtrak over supposed derailing issues.
I don't recall derailing issues with FP45's on either the Santa Fe or Milwaukee Road.
Rusty
Rusty Traque posted:Mike Caddell posted:Swafford,
I'm certainly no expert, but I think they, and the FP45, got a raw deal from Amtrak over supposed derailing issues.
I don't recall derailing issues with FP45's on either the Santa Fe or Milwaukee Road.
Rusty
Rusty is correct. The "derailment issues", on the BN and Family Lines, was eventually proven to be directly related to the poorly maintained, light weight baggage car coupled directly behind the DDP40F units. Especially on bag track! One site visited around Lincoln, Nebraska on the BN, after an Amtrak "derailment", we could reach down any pull any spike we wanted out of the ties, BY HAND! The BN folks sure didn't like THAT, when then saw what we were doing. At the time, the BN management overreacted at slapped a 50 MPH speed restriction on all the Amtrak trains with SDP40F units, yet the BN had over 200 or so SD40-2 units of the same design, with the same HT-C Trucks, and some units were even heavier than the SDP40F, and no speed restriction was placed on their own units. Naturally, the BN quickly became the laughing stock in the railroad industry, and very quietly removed the speed restriction, after some time.
I think a brass builders minimum order quantity would be 40 to 50 models. Brass can be done in such smaller runs as the tooling to build brass models is much different with the majority of parts being 3d printed wax for lost wax castings. and stamped sheet brass sides or etched metal sides and what not. Plastic models require a fairly expensive mold be cut and each plastic part requires its own mold. Making a 2nd run loco with flat nose would require a new mold for the cab or nose.
Here's a primer, 101 for importing plastic or Brass Models.
Plastic Moulds: They start at $20,000 for a simple 1 type car size mould. The moulds for the body of the SD79 types have 4 large parts, die cast side frames, this and that, and the moulds cost nearly $40,000. That's before you make anything. Outch. If you only make 150 units, that $40,000 / 150 = $266 / unit tooling cost. So you really need 500 units to make the numbers work especially for a first run. The chassis, electronics, assembly and painting all add to the factory unit costs. Painting and lettering needs to be planned, designed and produced. Not to mention the design fee for all the moulds, parts and decals. Money is outlayed for 9 to 12 months before a single unit is sold. If you have 3-4 projects running at once, have a good bank with at least 500K credit line. And do go to the factory every couple of months to make sure your investment is going into making models and not buying furniture or cars. Got some stories to tell there.
Brass Models: Here, the tooling is included in the Factory's unit cost. They order master patterns for each casting needed from their own subs. They order some tools for making the driver wheel centers as they coined in brass. The rest are brass etchings, forming tools and assembly tools which are disposable and changeable. But the factory has a minimum price they need for 3 months overhead. Usually that's about $120 - $150 K. And there is the cost of designing the loco and all the detailed parts which is about $15,000. Divide that by 150 models, you get the picture, each unit costs $1150. Add electronics, added versions, freight, repairs, damages, our own overhead needs and we get models that cost $1500 to $2000 to the consumer. Not all models are sold at once. It takes at least 3 months to sell what was reserved. If extras are purchased to get the factory the number they require, they can sit in stock for several years waiting to be turned to cash for overhead. It's a tough business... Some projects are home runs, some are slow goers. So you have to keep the ball rolling to stay afloat. Delays in production are disappointments to our customers, but they down right painful for our business.
It's tough, hair pulling frustrating, corrections, extra costs, delays, builder problems it's very challenging. But I wouldn't be happy doing anything else. I have to keep reminding myself of the alternatives. So with ever increasing costs, hardball negotiations of each project, 6 month time horizon that you can't see beyond, it's a very rewarding business, and the people that I meet along the way from customers to builders to helpers, has been well worth it. Time goes by very quickly and I've been doing this for 20 years now. I think I will keep going as long as I can find projects people want us to make.
So that's why I always end my rants with, "Enjoy your hobby." For you this is your recreation." And we know this. Mine was model airplanes. So I get it. It takes you away from that stressful world outside and transports you to your own world that you created and control. It's a great hobby, and I love the history involved in it too.
Enjoy your hobby...
Scott Mann - China
645 postededOn a model of a cowl unit like the SDP40F I would think the nose would be part of the entire shell. Not as easy as changing a nose on say a standard SD40-2 and a "snoot" (extended length nose) version. Of course this would also depend on how the tooling was designed to allow for variants like this.
In time I hope to see a SDP40F in O but know I can't hold my breath either - LOL!
Athearn is doing it somehow in HO.
Rusty
maybe a rerun for the SD7/9
first run the SD-9 is done for the Rio Grande, sadly the SD-7 was canceled
looking forward to see a SD-7 with a more modern painting.
Cor
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645 posteded
On a model of a cowl unit like the SDP40F I would think the nose would be part of the entire shell. Not as easy
as changing a nose on say a standard SD40-2 and a "snoot" (extended length nose) version. Of course this would
also depend on how the tooling was designed to allow for variants like this.
In time I hope to see a SDP40F in O but know I can't hold my breath either - LOL!
NOT TRUE! Modular shells may be the norm in the Future as China pushes for more units to be produced. Instead of ordering the completed unit as one diesel, the Mfg's order the parts as completed units and get them assembled. K-line and Weaver did this to a limited extent on their hooded diesels with their cabs. MTH does it as well as current Lionel with the SD60M 2 payne and 3 payne window cabs.
Originally posted by Scott Mann:
If you have 3-4 projects running at once, have a good bank with at least 500K credit line. And do go to the factory
every couple of months to make sure your investment is going into making models and not buying furniture or cars.
Got some stories to tell there.
WOW! Those stories have got to be good... like the Bob Smith ones formerly of Pecos River Brass! May give some insights as to what pitfalls awaited some former importers like Right of Way Industries, Aristo-Craft, Etc.
Please Scott! PLEASE DO TELL!!! [In Generic Terms] I and others don't want to offend the current factories that are making our stuff now! You just never know who knows who!
Originally posted by Matt Makens:
How many railroads had SDP-45s?
Several :
- EL [ 2 PAint Schemes]
- CR [2 Paint Schemes]
- NS
- SP [Kodachrome?]
- GN
- BN
Rusty Traque posted:645 postededOn a model of a cowl unit like the SDP40F I would think the nose would be part of the entire shell. Not as easy as changing a nose on say a standard SD40-2 and a "snoot" (extended length nose) version. Of course this would also depend on how the tooling was designed to allow for variants like this.
In time I hope to see a SDP40F in O but know I can't hold my breath either - LOL!
Athearn is doing it somehow in HO.
Rusty
Unfortunately getting in the area of 2000 units sold in O isn't possible anymore out of a single run. HO and H have the advantage and recent offerings sometimes have me wondering why I switched to O. Sometimes ..... not often.
sdmann posted:So that's why I always end my rants with, "Enjoy your hobby." For you this is your recreation." And we know this. Mine was model airplanes. So I get it. It takes you away from that stressful world outside and transports you to your own world that you created and control. It's a great hobby, and I love the history involved in it too.
Enjoy your hobby...
Scott Mann - China
Scott,
I'll need to tell you my new hobby offline after some of the adventures of the "process" and I only know a portion of it!
Best to you on your current Chinese adventure.
As delivered there were only 2 railroads the SP an The GN. The EL had a variant that did not have the steam generator like Jack said do it was a freight loco. So only 2 railroads had em which then became 2 merged railroads.
The SP had em painted in bloody nose. I wouldn’t qualify 6 railroads as lots
prrhorseshoecurve posted:Originally posted by Matt Makens:
How many railroads had SDP-45s?Several :
- EL [ 2 PAint Schemes]
- CR [2 Paint Schemes]
Remember that neither of these were REALLY SDP45 units, as the EL, and then later Conrail, did NOT have steam generators in the long hood, thus the rear roof details would be different.
- NS
Same info here, as these were originally E-L units, i.e. no steam generators.
- SP [Kodachrome?]
- GN
- BN
645 posted:prrhorseshoecurve posted:Originally posted by Matt Makens:
How many railroads had SDP-45s?Several :
- EL [ 2 PAint Schemes]
- CR [2 Paint Schemes]
- NS
- SP [Kodachrome?]
- GN
- BN
Don't forget that GN / BN also had the SDP40. NdeM also purchased the SDP40 as well.
Erik (Midwestern Model Works) is planning on adding the SDP40 to the SD40 project.
I've discussed brass SDP40F/FP45s with Scott and that $150K bottom line is there. There is a possibility of 75 FPs and 75 SDPs, if the builder would agree, as I would sponsor the SDPs but someone else will have to sponsor the FPs. Anyone willing to risk $75K and get done what you want and maybe make a few dollars if they all get sold?
GK would be glad to do these for 75k he needs a builder.
Bob
Scott,
How about the SD60's? Only Lionel did this engine and it was poorly done, it has big gaps and hi-riding fuel tanks just to name a few problems. This engine was available in plenty of roadnames and in my opinion is a great looking engine. I also like the SD40-2 but currently I have 4 of the new Lionel SD40s so I'm not real interested in the SD40-2. However, I would much rather an SD60 and I would be in for at least a couple.
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I would go for either 2 CSX or Norfolk Southern SD60's.
For a lot of us with smaller space, the SD40 was appealing but a bit too large. A good 4-axle unit fits the bill like the GP40s.
However, I always have to put a plug in for the CF-7. Perhaps it has some commonality, chassis model-wise, with the F7s already tooled?
I also am intrigued by something a bot different and smaller Alco's like the C430, C424/25, or RS27 are somewhat exotic. The first two have more possible roads including contemporary short lines -- same as the CF-7s.
Just my 2 cents...
