Who designed/built the Lionel PA's from 1996?

I am pretty sure that the earlier PA's where made by MTH under a contract with Lionel; such as the DRG&W and a couple of others.  I also feel pretty sure that they also made the ATSF and the NYC versions.  This is also when MTH made the scale MU cars for Lionel.  Then there was a tiff between the two companies and that ended the scale production of any further equipment...

 

Marty

Sam:

 

I have been told that Mike Wolf was involved with the first Lionel scale PA project from the early nineties when he worked for them as a consultant. The first offering was built with the D&RG road name. Lionel also did a set a set of 15" aluminum all-dome passenger cars to go with the PAs. My guess is the PAs were done in the Pacific Rim. I have to think that the later versions of the PAs all came from the D&RG project.

 

The photo below has a limited view of these PAs. They are just above the Yellow Bi-Polar.

 

 

Only the Lionel Rio Grande and Erie Lackawanna Alco PA's were produced by Samhongsa through MTH.

 

The Santa Fe, New York Central, Erie and Pennsylvania models were all fully-produced by Lionel in their Michigan facility.

 

I hope this helps.

TRW

 

Always good to hear from the folks in the know...

 

Did Mike produce the Erie Lackawanna AA's through Samhongsa for Lionel as one of his last arrangements with them before they departed ways? I always heard the AA's were Lionel and Mike subsequently decided to make under MTH the matching B unit. The AA's are in Lionel Boxes and the matching B unit is in MTH packaging.

 

This Lionel / MTH  Erie Lackawanna Alco PA ABA is one of my most favorite motive powers.

 

Paul

Yes, it does - Thanks a lot. I had forgotten about the Erie but do remember the story about the Lackawana's being just AA's with Mike producing the matching B later.

Where did the Tuscan PRRs fit into this time frame - before or after the Santa Fe/NYC? The Pennsy was originally to have the Odyssey Motor. I remember the catalog offering them for $900!

I gather then that Lionel later produced the AT&SF, UP, D&H in China? 

Sam-

 

The history is a bit screwy, but it goes like this.

 

1) The D&RGW (1992) and Erie Lackawanna (1993) were produced by Samhongsa/MTH for Lionel. They featured bodies with nice separately-applied detail.

 

2) The Santa Fe and New York Central models were produced in late 1997/early 1998 in Michigan. To make them, a large amount of $$$ were spent to remove most of the separately-applied detail from the Samhongsa tooling and cast everything into the body. (A shame, but I guess that was the thinking at the time.) Same thing with the B units which came a year later for each.

 

3) The black Erie A units were catalogued in 1998, but I don't think they were produced until early 2000 or so. (I remember being in the plant at the time). It was basically the same as the Santa Fe and NYC except ElectroCouplers were included. The B unit came along in 2000.

 

4) The Pennsy's were shown in the 1999 catalog, and as you mentioned, were scheduled to have the Odyssey motors. Once that program was canceled in 2000, the units were changed to include two standard can motors but with the Odyssey system for speed control. If I remember correctly, the Pennsy's (including the powered B unit) were the only diesel locomotives produced in the US that have the Odyssey system.

 

5) A set of Delaware & Hudson Alco PA's were scheduled for production in the US for 2001, but due to slow sales of the Pennsy and the pending move to China, they were canceled and never announced.

 

6) Prior to bringing out the next run of Alco PA's, I had some quotes generated to restore all the separately-applied detail to the cab. The short version is that it wasn't worthwhile to put more dollars into the old tooling, therefore everything from here on used Alco PA tooling that was new from the ground up.

 

7) The first batch of all-new Lionel Alco's were the Santa Fe, Delaware & Hudson, Union Pacific and Freedom Train, produced in China in 2003. These last two only came in sets. And if you're curious about the "sleeper" of the bunch, check-out the Freedom Train -- it's neat.

 

Regards,

TRW

The MTH version was quite accurate, in my opinion.  I compared it with Key, the top of the line 2- rail brass model that retailed for $1200 in the last century, and it compared favorably, at least above the floorboards.

 

Key re- tooled, and almost used the Alco drawings, which show no nose taper ( viewed from above).  I believe they were convinced that the photos were more accurate than the drawings, and the re- issue again had the proper nose taper.

 

From photos, I believe Lionel may have made the same mistake, re- contouring the nose to match the drawings.  Not sure of that.

 

I converted my MTH bodies to metal.  One is nickel silver, the other two are silicon bronze.  Beautiful models.  Even with half a percent shrinkage, they are scale size.  If you like accurate PAs on a budget, MTH is the choice.  Opinion.

I think TRW has it correct.  I remember Mike did the EL B unit and it was a perfect match to the Lionel AA.  I will give Mike a call and get the order correct.  I still have the NYC and it is a great unit.

Very interesting thread with very knowledgeable replies. The scale PAs are beautiful and a compliment to any layout. We had a summer outing today and I ran our Sante Fe PAs from 2003 for the attendees.

I just got a call from Mike and I have the details.  When Mike was doing locomotives for Lionel, he first did the Rio Grande then the Erie Lackawanna.  He later did the EL B unit as an MTH item.  Mike stated he did not do the Santa Fe or NYC.  They were done by Lionel.

I think I remember that project in O Scale News (I'm dating myself). Didn't you essentially use a lost-wax technique for that? The photo I remember was fresh-from-the plaster before the casting was cleaned up.

Thanks Marty - we really appreciate your participation here!

Good evening

 

Thank you everyone, this was an enjoyable thread to follow  

 

clem k

Thanks Marty for the update from Mike. Nothing like getting the information from the original source.

 

I have the Rio Grande set and they are beautiful.

Hello all...

 

I thought I'd share my $0.02...

 

I have the NYC units in both the Lionel 2000-series (AB) and the MTH PS1 (AA) versions (w/ TMCC added by DD Equalizer), and I love them both.  They're definitely not as detailed as modern units, but they are decent.  And, with the addition of a set of nose grab irons, they could be great...  The MTH have the as-delivered black set of trucks on the #4200, but I'll probably be painting the dummy A's silver to match later units.  The Lionel's are already silver, but the numbers are incorrect (2000 & 2000B), and they have never been run.

 

Speaking of "run", boy does that MTH pull!  It pulls my full consist of K-Line Pacemaker scale heavyweights (6), an express reefer and for giggles we added 4 MTH scale heavyweights, as well!  No problem!

 

 

 

Thanks,

-Mario

PaperTRW: What years did you work for Lionel?

I purchased two A units and reversed the motor wiring on one so they would work together.  I hater purchased the B unit.  Great train and it will never leave the collection.  The sounds are very good.

Mario, sure do like your inclusion of a picture of one of P&LE's PA-1's.  These pulled from Pittsburgh to northern terminus point Youngstown.  There the consist was handed off to Erie.  An Erie RS-2 would pull their and P&LE cars to Cleveland.

 

I also found a MTH set which had the rear PA-1 numbered 4204 which was in fact actually one of the P&LE PA-1's.  I am going to upgrade powered unit to PS-2 and trade cabs.  I have P&LE decals to add on lower body sides.  Just not sure how I am going to add "System"  since not enough room for full word.

 

Ron

Hey Todd (TRW) thanks for the detailed information and back stories, much appreciated.

 

Marty, next time you talk to Mike tell him I said THANK YOU for the wonderful matching B unit on the Erie Lackawanna PA's. I love that ABA. (Now I just need a good set of Stillwell coaches)

 

Paul

I have the Mth PS-1 AA set as well. They are very good pullers!!!

Key Model Imports 2009 run Alco 2000 PA

Engine room detail

The inside of my Mth PS-1 PA's

Thank all of you.

This tread is very informative and interesting.

Needed information is always welcomed, especially to make our hobby great and enjoyable!

Ralph 

Paul, he read that.  I am a big PA fan.  I just picked up a 6 car set of K Line DRG passenger cars at TTOS in Buffalo.  I am not a DRG guy but feel these are good trading material for someone with a PA set. 

"good trading material for someone with a PA set."

 

Marty, you are always thinking ahead. Good move!!!

 

 

"good trading material for someone with a PA set."

 

Marty, you are always thinking ahead. Good move!!!

 

 

 

THAT IS SO SICK! (SICK = NEATO = COOL = I WANT SOME!)

 

I'd love to do this... please tell us how.

 

These models came built up like this. FM Train Model of Korea built these in 2010. They were a challenging project:

From Key Model Imports:

THE PA'S WILL EXHIBIT A NEW ADVANCEMENT IN THE LEVEL OF DETAILING. THE MODELS WILL ARRIVE WITH INTERIOR ENGINE ROOM DETAILING INCLUDING: THE ENGINE, MAIN GENERATOR, AUXILIARY GENERATORS, TURBOSUPER CHARGER , TRACTION MOTOR BLOWERS, AIR COMPRESSOR, , STEAM GENERATOR, WATER TANKS, TOILET ETC. THERE WILL BE 3 LIGHT BULBS ON EACH SIDE OF THE ENGINE ROOM LOCATED BEHIND AND ABOVE THE PORTHOLES AND THE GRILL WORK FOR VIEWING THE INTERIOR DETAILING.

THE INTERIOR NOSE DETAILING WILL ALSO BE INSTALLED WHICH CAN BE VIEWED WHEN THE WORKING NOSE DOOR IS OPENED.

THE MODEL WILL ALSO INCLUDE A FLY WHEEL FOR SMOOTH RUNNING AND SCALE OPERATION.

I HAVE A NUMBER OF TOP EXPERTS WORKING ON THE PA'S WHO ARE SPECIALISTS IN THE PARTICULAR RAILROADS BEING IMPORTED.

THE MARS LIGHTS WERE MADE IN THE USA TO INSURE AN OUTSTANDING LIGHTING SYSTEM.

ANOTHER INTERESTING REFINEMENT WILL BE THE ADDITION OF THE REAR CAB WALL DOORS (BOTH LEFT AND RIGHT DOORS) LEADING TO THE ENGINE ROOM.

THE 4 CONTRACTOR COMPARTMENT DOORS WILL ALSO BE REPRESENTED.

THESE MODELS SHOULD BE REAL MASTERPIECES IN EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD, AN IMPRESSIVE STEP FORWARD IN DETAILING AND ACCURACY.

Photo copyrights apply to prototype photo.

Those are certainly beautiful Eric...

OH.  MY.  GOSH!

They sure are.

 

Awesome!

 

Does anyone make a pilot for the MTH/Lionel units that I can fix?  It seems the Lionel pilot's opening is just too huge.  I have the P&D pilot for my EMD units...

 

Thanks,

- Mario

 

 

 

Here is a picture of the UP set from 2003..(fourth one down) and another on the track next to another famous UP loco...

Rich, having seen your collection first hand, your photos are a wonderful reminder if how good your layout and train room really are.