Who has had it with no new tooling?

I'm ready for something new...something big.  Would like some new rolling stock too.

I don't think that is completely true. New this year from MTH was the ES44AC in Rail King Imperial line. I just got one and it is fantastic. Especially the Hybrid model with the charging lights effect.

Well, in the 2014 model year Lionel came out with new tooling for the USRA Heavy Mikado, a historically important locomotive that many of us have been wanting to see for years. On the diesel side, I do believe the Lionel E8/E9 is new as well, although I could be wrong on that one. Lionel also added the 86-foot modern boxcar. 

MTH announced two new Euro steamers: the German 2-10-0 and the French 2-8-2. We haven't seen a new freight car from MTH in a while, but I continue to hope. Rumors also persist that MTH is about to announce a scale GE 44-tonner, which Williams also did recently. 

We aren't buried in new stuff, but there's more than you would think from the title of this thread.

maybe the new Amtrak sprinter from someone? I've wondered who is going to be the first to do it and when/if it will be done in O scale.

Well, I for one am very pleased that Lionel is investing money for additional tooling to produce the Hi hood version of the GP30 specifically for Southern  and N&W fans.

Exactly what is there out there that you feel needs to be produced and if it are, would it sell enough to justify large tooling expenditures.

Paying for four sets of new tooling per year as you suggest would probably wipe out any chance of profit for either MTH or Lionel.  We have so much to be thankful for when it comes to available engines and rolling stock that it is hard for me to imagine how we could complain.

Happy railroading,

Don

It was a few years back when I heard this number tossed around, but I recall the folks at Atlas-O quoting $150K-$175K as a general number for new tooling expenditures with respect to brand new models of rolling stock like the CZ passenger cars.

From there, it's all about the numbers and ROI.  So depending on the production quantities, it may take one or two production runs to pay for the tooling.  That's not anyone's salary yet -- just covering the new tooling costs, etc...  Now add in salaries and other corporate overhead, and it's easy to see that it takes a few production runs to really start turning healthy profits on a new model.

Given the unsteady economy on this side of the ocean, combined with often unpredictable and challenging overseas labor issues on the other side of the ocean (which has gotta make coordination of new product development a nightmare), it's no real surprise that embarking upon new tooling projects nowadays seems a last-resort type of scenario.  

David

As for MTH, I think just sticking any old name on anything has run its course.

Give us other variations of cars and structures that haven’t been made going forward.

Marine related items, subway signals, simulated electrified 3^rd rail kits, trucks seen in the 60’s & 70’s and so much more.

Maybe they should examine the entire HO market for ideas?

Less cookie cutter items please!

great topic!

i also feel the makers are so concerned with the guts of the engines they are trying to keep current with technology so they are focusing attention there as well.

On the Rapido Trains blog (HO and N manufacturer) $100K was mentioned recently for an all new N scale locomotive (a GMD-1), so $150K-$175K is probably even a little low for an O scale locomotive nowadays.

And, the cost of new tooling isn't going to go down, either...

Rusty

This topic is begging to mention the possibility of industrial scale 3D printing in the future.  At least for plastic engine bodies.  We live in exciting times.

The solution is simple.  Why don't you and/or a consortium of individuals make(have it made) the tooling and then lease it back to he toy train companies.  Or just agree to pay more, say $1000.00 for each engine.  Tooling for our toys cost between 100K and 250K for a loco. 

That is the number that responsible individuals from the two largest toy train companies have told me.  One going into detail.  And since I come from a professional manufacturing background including metals, plastics, and rubber these numbers do not surprise me.  And yes it may,probably, dose not cost these Chinese or Korean companies that much but the world rate is that much so they too want it and get it.

Companies must recoup the cost, all cost plus a profit or they will not be there.  And we all should realize that the market quantity for our toy O-gauge trains is actually somewhat infinitesimal compared to almost any other product.

Of course you can start your own company like Mike Wolf did decades ago somewhat based on the same premise, but sooner or later the reality of economics catches up.

Ron

The perfect storm......Tooling cost in China/Asia have gone up 100 to 300% of what it was in the 1990's........

Add a flat market and no new tooling.

Some say it's a self made problem.....no new tooling....flat sales......but who here wants to risk their own cash on new tooling that will not pay for itself????

If anyone here has $1M I know tooling companies in China/Asia that will tool what you want!!

David:

I think we all would like to see a variety of new tooling, but economics will dictate just how much we will see.

I don't know whether you caught it on the news this week, but someone is producing a vehicle with a 3-D printer and will market it in the 20K range. This may be part of our future.

And it looks like it was made from spaghetti. (At least the one I saw...)

It will also be a while before a 3-D printer could match the speed of an injection molding machine for mass production.

Rusty

I always find something in every catalog I want, so no, it does not bother me.  Maybe down the road, but frankly most of what I want has been produced, even if it is not now produced, so when that old tooling comes out of retirement for another run, I'll be happy.

I own stocks.  They're not doing so well, either.

Anything can be produced inexpensively these days even at home using a 3D printer.

Some of us might just create and supply things that others failed to capitalize on in the garage.

Tooling has changed drastically so the old expensive excuse is no longer valid.

Smart machines are replacing humans every day.

These companies either need to step up or step out.

Until 3-D printing of large parts like body shells matches the output rate of injection molding, then it's simply going to be impractical for Lionel, MTH, Atlas, or anyone else for that matter, to use it for mass-producing, no matter how inexpensive the 3-D printing hardware is.

Gotta disagree some on those statements........

I am lucky enough to be involved to a degree with the plastic model industry.

I see product go from a dream, idea, proposal, sketches, CAD drawings, 3D printed prototypes, rough tooling tests, first round mold tests, final mold test shots, test shots fit and finish builds, mold modifications, final product mold approval, packaging, production and product delivered via a container from China. Every single step people and human hands a vital part on two different continents.  We are using the current 'best methods' in hobby production......I see very little Artificial Intelligence, what you are talking about, in our production. Still a hands on business for now.

And costly....

I wonder how may molds for each loco does a manufacture need?

Oh, I dunno. Seems to me that new tooling comes up sufficiently often, now. This doesn't

help if your pet piece hasn't been made - I feel your pain - but we have the new Lionel USRA Heavy Mike (mine will be L&N), the high-nose GP-30 (refreshed tooling - I've ordered

the SOU), some with correct trucks.

The 4-new-articulateds-in-a-catalogue days are over (would you buy them all?). The

O-gauge manufacturers have modeled only a small percentage of, for example, prototype

steam locos; we can hope for more, but at a rational pace.

I don't follow MTH as much as Lionel or the Lionel-pals, but those later Mohawks are

a real achievement (I have the Lima L3b).

===

Perhaps we should continue to encourage Weaver to keep offering low-volume steamers,

for those of us who want the less-mainstream.

(Again, NC&StL streamstyled 4-8-4's.)

=====

HOWEVER: for the life of me, I cannot recall any O-gauge/scale offering of a waffle-side

(proper name?) gondola. I see them all over the place; common, modern car. But,

if one has been done in plastic/scale, I don't know about it. Why? 

Depends on the engine.

Diesel:

1 for the main body and one for some add ons in plastic molds (horns, doors, whatever), At least two for the base plate in metal forming. One to punch the outline and holes, one to form the shape.

Steam engine:

you can double that if not more. And they are all die cast so bigger costs for each iteration of development.

Even a freight car takes at least 4: 2 Plastic; body, Details(doors, ect), Frame punch and molding (metal).

That's if the item has all molded in ladders and such, a Premier / Scale unit needs many more for the add on details.

I’m in the cell phone industry.

Apple can design, provide millions of phones, load the OS software and have them in your hands in a matter of weeks via Foxcon.

Any kind of plastic, metal shape or part can be made inexpensively and produce quickly.

Successful companies are using LEAN and Kaizen methods these days.

Get on board!

They can make items from old tooling but maybe one engine per catalog steam and diesel could be made also. 

 

I'm really tired of seeing the same old thing catalog after catalog---give us something new, please.

I agree. At least one new loco a year is all we ask. There are still some models to make:

4-4-0 cammelbacks

2-6-0

2-6-2

GP9m[ chopped nose]

GP40-2[phase II]

SD60M[three payne cab]

U28/30/33/36B's

C36-7

C39-8

Quiz time, 4 questions:

Which is more complicated? 

Which requires more hand assembly?

Which one costs the consumer less?

Which one has higher production numbers?

a:

b:

Rusty

As usual, a lot of naïve opinion re business and manufacturing.

Stocks not doing well?....in the last few days?   Wrong stocks?  (Even in a bull market you can be in a race for last place!) 

Meanwhile, I'm going to try to understand why a country of 1.4 BILLION souls would want to find a way to replace the human content with "smart machines" in the making of toy trains?   Hmmmmm.... 

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....

If the mold is a high grade tool cut from nickel steel it will last 1 million presses or more if taken care of. Some plastic model tools have, with maintenance, been in use since the 1960's.

I do not know for a fact but doubt any modern O scale loco has worn out a mold or production numbers so high it needed a clone mold.

Man, I hope and pray that our current suppliers do not decide to just "step out".  I reentered the hobby in 1975 and was happy to just find that Lionel was still making trains, even if was very limited.  

I am amazed at the choices I have available to me today and still enjoy every new catalog that comes out.

Happy railroading,

Don

I am hoping for Lionel to make a traditional SD70 ACe or GE ES44ac like MTH's imperial versions. 

Apple has 300,000 "employees" assembling I pads alone.

As usual, a lot of naïve opinion re business and manufacturing.

 

Stocks not doing well?....in the last few days?   Wrong stocks?  (Even in a bull market you can be in a race for last place!) 

 

Same ol' same ol'...

 

Say, here's an idea.  For those who pine for the unmade, why not start a tooling fund?  Negotiate with the manufacturer of your choice to set up a tooling fund for a specific item, advertise the goals and aspirations...and the total $$$ required!!!...and start investing your own money in the project of your dreams!?!?  Be sure to hire a good attorney to establish the terms....you know, first born guarantees, reasonable bullet-proof escape clauses, rights of product approvals, etc., etc., yada, yada, yada.  Oh, lessee, attorney costs would have to be baked into that, too...ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching.  Gotta put a time limit on the funding effort....don't want to exceed one's bucket life.  Oh, and be sure to establish a fair share of the pile of profits!!

 

Not something I'd ante into, mind you.  But, how bad do you want it?  As Jerry MacGuire once said...

 

 

Meanwhile, I'm going to try to understand why a country of 1.4 BILLION souls would want to find a way to replace the human content with "smart machines" in the making of toy trains?   Hmmmmm.... 

 

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....

 

 

OK, Show me the new TRAINS AND I WILL SHOW THE MONEY  

I would love new tooling but I understand why there is not a business case for it at this point of time.  I wonder how many units they have to sell to break even on the cost of new tooling.  I am just happy I got experience when MTH and Lionel had new tooling every year in the late 1990's and early 2000's.  I hope it some point though some new tooling like a B23-7, B30-7, or B36-7 would be developed.  A decent amount of railroads owned these and it would be great for people who model 80's and 90's railroads.  I wonder if it possible to do modular tooling to build these locomotives.

Unfortunately I do not see Lionel doing that because they have basically discontinued the Lionmaster line because it was costing almost as much to make those items as the scale stuff. They could do a semi scale starter set one but I do not know if it would sell well. It would be nice if Lionel had a more modern diesel starter set locomotive though.

I'm just glad they're all still in business. As to dies, K-Line made some of theirs from epoxy (as per Nick Ladd at the TCA Museum presentations). It helped make some cheaper trains, but the overall profits went down - and no more K-Line .

It’s not that hard guys, really.

You’re either in or out of the train business, reality check?

We shall see who is left standing in ‘O’ with-in the next 3 to 4 years…

Why make excuses for any company??! This IS an industry for Making trains. Either make new releases or move On. Seriously. Stop making excuses !!! Lets see some new stuff...

"it's the economy stupid"

Don

If Lionel were to make new different stuff, they will go broke faster then they are already going broke.

Going broke? LOL!!!!

The only one going broke is me buying new Lionel products.

Just look around. there is new stuff everywhere. Twenty years ago most of the O gauge products out there were post war reruns.

I like to some new stuff, but the manufactures have to sell enough to amortize their costs.

Any body remember the MTH McKeen Motorcar? they had to cancel it because they didn't get enough orders.

 I still want one.

Thanks Jeff.

Any business is a risk.

Make what hasn't been done already and what the remaining die-hard modelers request or get out.

Reality Check -  The hay-day is over for collectors, nostalgia, high prices, and interest.

I for one am making do with what I have. Between building a new layout and a just finished new kitchen, I don't have much extra money to buy a $1000 engine. Mr. Muffin is getting me a "GE Little Joe" demo engine but that will most likely be my last large purchase for a long time. Don

Balshis,

Just 5 hours ago both the DOW and the S&P 500 closed at all-time record highs.  If your stocks are not doing well in this market maybe you should consider a new broker or CA$HING OUT.

Hey, Guys

I was talking with MTH today and there is going to be some new tooling in the next catalog. I hope I do not get in trouble but I just have to tell you guys the MTH 44 Toner will be in the next catalog. I am not sure if its in the Premier Line or the Railking line. This engine will be packed with full features of DCS.

Thanks

Pat

PATRICK'S TRAINS

That's not exactly news. I just hope it is a Premier model with a -2 scale wheel version.

Reality Check -  The hay-day is over for collectors, nostalgia, high prices, and interest.

The heyday is over for speculators.  The times are good if you are an operator, especially if you model a railroad that was not well represented until the post 200 era.  But so has much produced and in so may variations that there are plenty of hay days ahead for the coming generation or two of collectors. It will likely take a decade or two for those who have an interest in O gauge trains to sort out what has been made since the 1990s and then let the market decide what is desirable and what items among the desirable ones are rare.

There are opportunities out there for manufacturers but there will be fewer home run products since so many models of the most popular subjects have already been made in large quantity.  Technology will allow the most innovative manufacturers to be able to make a respectable profit on smaller production runs, keep prices at levels their customers can afford and add interest to the hobby with new products.

For me the market changes have meant that I bought my first Legacy locomotive when Lionel made the Milwaukee Road S-3 Northern.  I bought the road number I did, likely the least common, because the 267 ran on the un-electrified gap in Washington and Idaho.

I also have one new brass locomotive and one on order.  While Lionel and MTH have cut back on their new diecast locomotive introductions that has opened up opportunities for brass builders where tooling costs are lower.  Sunset/3rd Rail has improved their products to the point where the running qualities and sound and smoke features are competitive with the diecast builders.  My GN O-8 Mikado is hefty and beautiful.  I expect the Timken locomotive to be a good runner, absolutely gorgeous and as accurate as the available data allows it to be.

I am also hoping that the O scale market improves to the point that MTH re-announces their last new US prototype steam offering, the UP 4-8-2.  If they re-offer it I will re-order it! If several hundred of you guys do too we can all have one.

A number of units are manufactured that have the tooling cost amortized into the price. Now that the tooling is paid for we should be able to see much lower prices across the board.

I think a lot of the challenges currently facing the hobby can be summed-up by some of the petulant attitudes expressed throughout this thread, and it truly saddens me.

TRW

As cited above,,WAHHHH!  I wanta McKeen car, and I want it now!!  I actually put

in a reservation for one, so I, and those way too few others should get first grabs.

Gotta agree with Ted there.  The heyday for collectors has long been over... like 15-20 years ago over.    

The seeds for the largely operator-oriented culture we have today took hold back when incremental details were being added to locomotives and rolling stock in the 1990's.  That was also the time the pioneers of hi-rail burst onto the scene... guys like Phil Klopp and Herb Lindsay Come to mind.  They paved the way for many enthusiasts, and their layouts were an inspiration to us all via magazine coverage and videos.  I think my first video of Phil's layout was on TAPE!!!    Remember VHS?  

As for nostalgia... I don't think we EVER outgrow that.  No sirree.    That's partly what has sparked my recent interest in Standard Gauge tinplate.

And as for high prices...  I don't think too many folks need to look further than the latest catalogs and dealer price sheets to realize premium prices for new product are still very much alive and well.  The secondary market?  Now that's where high prices are far and few between.

David

I wish the hobby business was 1/100 as easy as some of you make out it is........

As easy as the Magazine biz right Rich, Ed and Alan???

Lionel from about 1950 into the late 70's didn't have much new tooling. You could count on one hand the number of really new engine. Don't think I heard many complaints. I was just glad Lionel was still in business. Don

That was also the time the pioneers of hi-rail burst onto the scene... guys like Phil Klopp and Herb Lindsay Come to mind.  They paved the way for many enthusiasts, and their layouts were an inspiration to us all via magazine coverage and videos.  I think my first video of Phil's layout was on TAPE!!!    Remember VHS?  

David

I remember the first time I ever saw images of Phil Klopp's layout.  It was on a VHS tape from my local library and my brother and I watched it together.  It definitely was influential!  It was wonderful to get to meet Phil in person a few years ago at York.

Lionel from about 1950 into the late 70's didn't have much new tooling. You could count on one hand the number of really new engine. Don't think I heard many complaints.

Don

Few complained, many moved to HO.  I moved back to O for the sound, operating qualities and the variety of the equipment we saw introduced in the 1990s and early 2000s.  Going to a Milwaukee modelers meet and seeing Noel Holley looking approvingly at my 3 rail O scale EF-5 set was pretty cool.  There is nothing as well detailed, smooth running and reasonably priced in HO. 

If we ever see the Westinghouse passenger motors or steeple cabs made in O we may both be in trouble!

Who has had it with no new tooling?.......

Jerry

For each locomotive type there are most likely 5 to 10 variations of freight cars.

New Freight Cars need to have priority over obscure locomotives.

Andrew

I'm far, far behind on being able to afford the stuff I want that's out already, so cries for "new tooling" fail to resonate much. All the many, many items that have already been produced offer more than anyone could possibly ever run, or afford.

Not saying new items aren't welcome, but, on the other hand, calling for more, more, more, and having people asking what will be in the next catalog before the most recent one has even been digested, sounds a bit like gluttony to me.

The top three all new tooling items I wanted in O gauge were all made the past few years.Lionel made the Milwaukee Road 261 steam engine and Weaver made the scale Milwaukee Road bay window caboose and rib sided boxcar.

Dan

There is a great variety of old tooling that works great for me.  I will be getting MTH's FEF-3 although I admit I would also like to see an FEF-2.  I will also be getting the Lionel Y6b.  Why I have previous versions of each model, the offering of different road numbers keeps the collection interesting.  Each model is well detailed and I can think of little for improvement of either.  I would like to see Lionel make a Y6b for S Gauge given that they already have a Y3.  You can sometimes get two S Gauge locomotives for the price of one O Gauge locomotive and fit a nice layout into a smaller space while not compromising detail or the traditionality of electric trains

This is how I deal with rising prices and the repetitive nature of this hobby.

I'll never buy anything twice, especially for electronic upgrades..  

I'll never buy anything cataloged countless times before and available cheaper in the secondary market.

Pretty simple..

Joe

I never pre-order trains and very rarely buy any that are brand new.

But...

If Lionel were to create some new tooling and produce these hoppers, I will pre-order a dozen of them.