a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
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Signalwoman posted:a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
My experience has been; because "smoke", and all the other "steam exiting features", are for play factor in the toy train world.
You are correct. A diesel will put out some black smoke when it is working hard, If it is putting out a lot of smoke it's time for a trip the repair shop. I run my diesels on low smoke.
Jim D.
No idea. I just don't turn them on. Looks more realistic that way.
Unless it's an ALCO with a 244. Then turn it on for starting a train and shut it off.
The market demanded it. Why? Who really knows. Play value is a somewhat dubious reason, particularly given the recent Asthma and Train Smoke thread.
After I verify they work, steam or diesel, I turn off all my smoke units. And yeah, I used to like smoke some 25-30 years ago, (I once had a postwar 736 I rescued from scrap and it could really lay down a fog...) but smoke is no longer important or a selling point to me.
To my mind, many folks seem more interested in the features than the actual hobby of model railroading. Lionel could probably offer motorized 2x4's with smoke and sound and folks would buy them...
Rusty
Not all model train manufacturers include smoke units. Try Williams by Bachman....nice, sharp looking trains. And I believe older K Line diesels dont have smoke units...
for the record i like smoke, from a steam engine. i don’t normally run smoke but that’s beside the point. i just don’t like my diesels to look like they're burning oil, and i certainly wouldn’t pay extra for it. maybe i’m just boring and cheap lol
How about a dose of realism. A diesel engine is a combustion engine that burn diesel fuel and has an exhaust. Realistically the exhaust is much less present than the vapor exhaust of a steam engine. Diesel exhaust should be kept to a minimum.. BTW I prefer to run my diesels with the smoke unit OFF.
good topic...
I find it to be another toy to play with, steam or diesel, sometimes smoke on sometimes smoke off but, I like it available.
Ray
L.I.TRAIN posted:How about a dose of realism. A diesel engine is a combustion engine that burn diesel fuel and has an exhaust. Realistically the exhaust is much less present than the vapor exhaust of a steam engine. Diesel exhaust should be kept to a minimum.. BTW I prefer to run my diesels with the smoke unit OFF.
good topic...
i live about 250 feet from an active rail line, i’m not saying smoke is never detectable, but you have to look hard for it, and when you can see it, it’s black. the only times i’ve seen white smoke is if an engine is really sick or worn out. apart from that, sometimes a little humidity in winter.
Signalwoman posted:a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
Because idiots such as me like them. And we are disappointed when manufacturers try to make more “prototypical” models with limited smoke output at idle or low rpm.
That said, the finest model diesel I have, the VL GE Evo, has a simulated eco-friendly smoke output that does not run continuously but only in stages depending on speed and the load on the engine. It’s fascinating to watch.
Sorry, ultimately all of this is about play value, IMHO.
Jim D posted:You are correct. A diesel will put out some black smoke when it is working hard, If it is putting out a lot of smoke it's time for a trip the repair shop. I run my diesels on low smoke.
Jim D.
Unless you are running early ALCOs which produced LOTS of smoke.
I do enjoy having the option. Smoke units have been become so ubiquitous that I was shocked and disappointed recently when I received a new MTH SW1200 (30-20587-1) with no smoke unit.
Signalwoman posted:a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
Because an engine like this has coolant. If that coolant can get into the combustion chamber somehow, you have an effect that looks like steam!
Here's a new generation engine that has this condition. I think it's cool. (OK, I forgot to turn down the effect)
watch the end!
here's what a good looking one is to me
I think it adds some excitement to the (imaginary?) struggle effect that the engines are doing to yank a train up the hill. The pros might say it's not correct. Our grandson said once, "don't wreck my fun!"
If you don't think diesels should emit smoke, you haven't been track side long enough. I fear that even some pros sitting in the cab don't get to see what's really happening up on top.
Engineer-Joe posted:Signalwoman posted:a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
Because an engine like this has coolant. If that coolant can get into the combustion chamber somehow, you have an effect that looks like steam!
Here's a new generation engine that has this condition. I think it's cool. (OK, I forgot to turn down the effect)
Really ? Come on - who really triple heads a 100 plus car consist. I mean REALLY ??
So do you have any other cars sitting or all the y all on the layout !
JK, Joe - looks great 
trumptrain posted:Jim D posted:You are correct. A diesel will put out some black smoke when it is working hard, If it is putting out a lot of smoke it's time for a trip the repair shop. I run my diesels on low smoke.
Jim D.
Unless you are running early ALCOs which produced LOTS of smoke.
Except,,,,,,,,,,,,it was ALWAYS black smoke!
They have them because real diesel-electrics smoke. Period. How much, under what circumstances, what color smoke is produced are all variable based on brand, load and condition - and era. There are stringent unburned hydrocarbons standard for locomotives, just like for your internal combustion car.
In the past, Alcos (and GE's) were known for lots of black smoke. This was due to turbo lag, causing an overly rich mixture. Also, a malfunctioning turbo will cause this constantly. These were and are 4-cycle engines.
Until relatively recently, EMD prime movers were non-turbocharged 2-cycle units, and, like your Yamaha dirt bike back in the day, they blew blue/white oil smoke. It was normal.
For both steam and diesel, the model white "smoke" (it's oil vapor in the model, not smoke, BTW) is incorrect most of the time. "Smoke" (that is, from combustion) tends to be black/gray/brown. Oil smoke is blue/white, and steam - water vapor - is very white in light as it begins to condense into tiny droplets.
Also - a steam loco at steady speed with good fuel and a good fireman makes very little "smoke" of any kind. This does, however, vary wildly. Some of the smoky photos of steamers were done for the benefit of the cameras, also.
When the proper color of smoke can be replicated and it is present when it needs to be. For instance, cold start up, in a hard pull or push, and advancement to higher notches up to 8, I'd be interested. Until then, I'd prefer not smoking up the room with diesel smoke that doesn't look realistic to me.
I don't mind the smoke on the many postwar steam locomotives I have or my only LC steam engine, a Pennsy 0-8-0. Sometimes I prefer if they don't smoke, for I quit smoking almost 5 years ago, myself. I still like the smell of smoke though.
Rusty
D500 posted:They have them because real diesel-electrics smoke. Period. How much, under what circumstances, what color smoke is produced are all variable based on brand, load and condition - and era. There are stringent unburned hydrocarbons standard for locomotives, just like for your internal combustion car.
In the past, Alcos (and GE's) were known for lots of black smoke. This was due to turbo lag, causing an overly rich mixture. Also, a malfunctioning turbo will cause this constantly. These were and are 4-cycle engines.
Until relatively recently, EMD prime movers were non-turbocharged 2-cycle units,
What do you consider "relatively recently"? The EMD turbocharged 16 cylinder 567 prime movers appeared in the SD24 and GP20 models of 1959!
and, like your Yamaha dirt bike back in the day, they blew blue/white oil smoke.
When cold and first started and or first loaded.
It was normal.
Not really.
For both steam and diesel, the model white "smoke" (it's oil vapor in the model, not smoke, BTW) is incorrect most of the time. "Smoke" (that is, from combustion) tends to be black/gray/brown. Oil smoke is blue/white, and steam - water vapor - is very white in light as it begins to condense into tiny droplets.
Also - a steam loco at steady speed with good fuel and a good fireman makes very little "smoke" of any kind. This does, however, vary wildly. Some of the smoky photos of steamers were done for the benefit of the cameras, also.
One way to look at model train diesels smoking. It was converted to steam.
The old pill type pellets left a chalk type residue. Not sure if the new type does. But what caused it make it turn grey. If it could be added to fluid.
How about electrics with smoke?
Mth Bipolar electric has smoke. it is for the steam heat generator but is an odd feature for an ELECTRIC .
I ran it once with the smoke on, but it looked so odd smoking between the pantagraphs that I haven't turned it on again.
The only model trains I run that smoke are Roundhouse steamers (and it is on G-gauge track, outside). It is realistic smoke: Near stoichiometric combustion of butane (nearly invisible) and cylinder exhausted steam.
If there were model railroad imitation black smoke i would strongly consider for my O-gauge steam and early ALCO diesel models.
When I was living in Roanoke in the Eighties I remember looking at the former Virginian yard and watching idling N&W diesel locos putting up a fair amount of visible exhaust. I have no doubt that a diesel emitting smoke could be realistic. In terms of play value I don't see diesel smoke in the same league as steam exhaust. The exhaust cloud a steam loco produces even at 1/48 scale would be far more noticeable than the exhaust from any properly functioning diesel I have witnessed on the move.
That said when I am running my trains for my own enjoyment the smoke units are always off.
As previously mentioned, play value. Just like the sound systems. Like all of the sounds on the toy trains I have, smoke gets old after a while and I turn it off. The fan smoke units make great smoke, but it doesn't take very long to get overwhelmed. Personally I would rather pay less for a diesel without the smoke unit.
All I'm gonna say is that a lot of you look like you've blown a turbo. That is all. LOL
Signalwoman posted:i live about 250 feet from an active rail line, i’m not saying smoke is never detectable, but you have to look hard for it, and when you can see it, it’s black. the only times i’ve seen white smoke is if an engine is really sick or worn out. apart from that, sometimes a little humidity in winter.
Certainly true, and much of the time, the stack of a steamer is also blowing black smoke. This has also gotten a lot of mileage here, the bottom line is you can't get black smoke from model trains without depositing particulate matter all over the room! So, we just have to imagine it's black and move on.
Because it’s fun
I appreciate the above comments, which taught me something about the steam and smoke of real locomotives.
I like the dramatic effect of the smoke for my steamers and diesels. Smoke in moderation works for me. I rarely run more than one locomotive at a time, which helps keep the smoke in moderation. Arnold
doesn't look very black here?
My diesels are to young to smoke. 
Engineer-Joe posted:doesn't look very black here?
That's the first one I've seen with white smoke. You've changed my opinion though I still won't turn mine on.
When I got my first K-line F-7 set and turned it on I thought they put a steam engine inside. I never use it in my diesels. Don
Engineer-Joe posted:doesn't look very black here?
So,,,,,,,,,,what part of "cold start" did you miss?????
Still waiting for one that shoots out flames.
The most smoke exhaust currently comes from damaged GE locomotives.
If you had seen diesel engine powered locomotives between 1950 to 2000 you would have seen them emitting a great deal more exhaust than they do currently.
Old ALCo units in use on switching shortlines still produce exhaust smoke.
The smoke shows that the diesel engine is working hard pulling a freight train.
Andrew
Lots of diesel cold start smoke in this video.
falconservice posted:The most smoke exhaust currently comes from damaged GE locomotives.
They don't necessarily have to be "damaged" as that is the result of turbo-lag, which is characteristic of virtually 4-stroke cycle, turbocharged Diesel engines in railroad locomotives. Thus the exhaust is mostly always black smoke.
If you had seen diesel engine powered locomotives between 1950 to 2000 you would have seen them emitting a great deal more exhaust than they do currently.
Maybe, but certainly NOT white smoke, when under load.
Old ALCo units in use on switching shortlines still produce exhaust smoke.
Yes, but again, it is black smoke.
The smoke shows that the diesel engine is working hard pulling a freight train.
Then how do you explain diesel units that are properly maintained that produce very little visible exhaust when under heavy load?
Andrew
The CN has several BCOL GE C40-8M units that generate a large amount of black smoke.
To create black smoke requires carbon, very fine carbon for scale models. The more realistic smoke unit would have to store, then propel the fine, black carbon through the exhaust stack. The 'puffer' would need to be synchronized with the sound board.
Andrew
Signalwoman posted:a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
Pleasant changeable fragrance. Steamer comes around, a nice nose hit, close your eyes. Then relive childhood memories. Life’s to short. That’s just me, but I had what I thought was an easy answer.
A smoke fluid scent that smells great is JTs Mega-Steam Candy Cane Express.
The smoke unit can pump out the scent that smells just like the diesel fuel scent that can be smelled when some locomotives are running trains through the area.
Andrew
Hot Water posted:Signalwoman posted:a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
My experience has been; because "smoke", and all the other "steam exiting features", are for play factor in the toy train world.
I was good with your answer Sir.
It applies to me and most of my guest operators.
Now watch the first minute and 1/4 of this video and tell me what color smoke I am seeing?
To me, it's closer to white than black. To others? I don't know.
How about from 21:50 to around 23 minutes? What color is that smoke? I feel it's like my video posted earlier of the MTH GP.
The way I understand diesel combustion is white smoke means the combustion chamber is too cool; and black smoke means the combustion chamber is sufficiently hot but there is too little air (oxygen) to completely burn the fuel.
There should be no smoke coming out of a new Tier 4 locomotive, If there is, that unit has a real problem.
Engineer-Joe posted:Hot Water posted:Signalwoman posted:a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
My experience has been; because "smoke", and all the other "steam exiting features", are for play factor in the toy train world.
I was good with your answer Sir.
It applies to me and most of my guest operators.
Now watch the first minute and 1/4 of this video and tell me what color smoke I am seeing?
To me, it's closer to white than black. To others? I don't know.
How about from 21:50 to around 23 minutes? What color is that smoke? I feel it's like my video posted earlier of the MTH GP.
apart from the gp9 that looks like it needs a set of rings, it all looks more black to me.
i’ve seen a few people here mentioning 2 stroke engines, i honestly hadn’t considered that. i didn’t think there were many 2 cycle engines of this size, but white smoke certainly makes sense there.
Signalwoman posted:apart from the gp9 that looks like it needs a set of rings, it all looks more black to me.
i’ve seen a few people here mentioning 2 stroke engines, i honestly hadn’t considered that. i didn’t think there were many 2 cycle engines of this size, but white smoke certainly makes sense there.
Signalwoman,
Do not confuse the 2 cycle engines on lawn mowers, chain saws, weed-walkers, etc., with the large 2-stroke cycle prime movers in EMD railroad locomotive applications. Those small 2 cycle engines I mentioned are all gasoline fueled internal combustion engines, and thus must have oil mixed with the gasoline in order to lubricate the piston rings & cylinders.
The EMD 2-stroke cycle engines in railroad locomotives are Diesel engines and have NO OIL mixed in to the diesel fuel, but have their own internal pressurized oil lubrication system, even including cooling the underside of the piston crowns with pressurized lube oil.
They add smoke units to diesels to look and act like the real thing. It gives the illusion there is an actual engine inside these toy locomotives instead of low voltage AC up the center rail. Even though they are a bit of work to maintain I sure enjoy them.
As far as new locos smoking, just watch. That's all I do. Sure in theory they shouldn't smoke much. I can only imagine it's from the total hours and harsh conditions that these things are going thru while we are home comfy in our surroundings. Just how many hours are already on some tier 4s? Maybe some have things going wrong much earlier than expected?
I see the newer versions smoking in videos. I'm sure if I searched I could find videos of the newest tier 4s smoking. I've seen them smoking when throttled up harshly in person and can only guess at why that is. I'm not on a RR maintenance team who can give definite answers on each and every unit in question. I'm a hobbyist who enjoys the effect, clearly more than most posters here do. So bash away at anyone who enjoys an effect that probably isn't going to be accepted by real RR workers or the ones who think they're experts. It's a diesel engine and all diesel engines smoke. You can treat the exhaust for so long and in real world conditions, things change, break, and/or wear out. I'm guessing more than fellow foamers think?
Imagine a youngster who can hit a button and simulate an engine having a mal function by smoking? You probably can't yet you can imagine those oversized lobster couplers, third rails, oversized wheels, large (oversized) hollow rails, huge gaps, etc., etc., aren't bothering you?
& Why do I have to justify to you what I like?
Steims posted:They add smoke units to diesels to look and act like the real thing. It gives the illusion there is an actual engine inside these toy locomotives instead of low voltage AC up the center rail. Even though they are a bit of work to maintain I sure enjoy them.
That's impossible! Photo is fake! All those must be worn out? That smoke is black! Oh the humanity!!!!!!!!!
Smoke unit in an Atlas Dash 8 40BW model. Fan driven, (bottom left). The Blue device is a thermister, to cut electricity to the element, low fluid. Black cartridge is the smoke heating element. Smoke fluids are a liquid that boils at a relatively low temperature. Smoke is a vapor or condensing vapor of the product placed in the smoke unit. Some serious thought and expense in this part of a model, IMO.
Note: There are diesels without the smoke unit. Most, or all, Atlas SW8/9 models do not have smoke units. ?? no room under the hood?? ??Similar MTH models do have smoke units??
Let me start with a disclaimer: I seldom see rail service of any kind. I don't live close to any railroad tracks.
Any diesels with computer control combustion systems are programmed to run at their most efficient fuel/air settings. "Closed Loop" (steady speed anywhere from zero to maximum speed) the combustion is stoichiometric; i.e., the ideal hydrocarbon fuel yields products of combustion of only CO2 and H2O. "Open Loop" (changing throttle position) requires "mapping" the fuel/air ratio for all fuel demands as they change. This requires a good "tuner" (programmer).
I would think that, these days of environmental stewardship and laws, that each design was capable to meet emission standards. Those typically are strongly averse to visible effluent (smoke).
I wonder if fuel quality (water or other contaminant) might adversely impact stack effluent. Any appreciable amount of water in the fuel might cool the combustion chamber sufficiently to cause white smoke. This could quickly reveal itself running "open loop".
I don't know if open loop/closed loop is used at all in railroad terminology. It is used relative to tuning modern cars. My experience is having my non-stock 419 cu.in. powered 2005 Dodge Magnum dyno tuned.
Engineer-Joe posted:… Our grandson said once, "don't wreck my fun!" ...
Wise words from the little nipper!
I smoke 'em if I got 'em.
Good morning, in this horsepower class of diesel engines there is still at times a visible exhaust trace from the engines exhaust.
Although the engines are cleaner burning than their earlier counterparts the Tier 4 emissions for this horsepower class is still not a (no visible emissions from the exhaust) as with the newer over the road trucks and some heavy equipment being manufactured today.
My wife and I occasionally watch trains at a location called Conpit on the Pittsburgh NS main line. If the trains are heading east which is up hill at this point on the railroad you can visually see the black exhaust being omitted from the engines exhaust.
These engines are usually traveling 45 to 50 mph so they are not at crawl where the lead engines are trying to get a consist moving from a dead stop.
If the sun is out and is low in the western sky the exhaust is even more prevalent. All these NS road engines are the latest and greatest as far as the Tier 4 emission goes.
For a diesel model train to smoke, I think MTH could have toned down the smoke output or make the smoke output appear when the engine sees a quick increase in speed or just randomly come on possibly sensing the amperage being pulled by the engine while traveling around ones layout.
Either way another program would have to be written and developed for the diesel engines electronics which is expensive for the manufactures.
This past holiday season we set up a layout at the Indiana Mall here in Indiana PA.
On the layout this year we ran modern MTH diesel engines and at times we turned the smoke units on and the visitors visiting the display seem to be impressed with the smoke output so it does have a visual affect on a person watching.
As mentioned earlier in this thread the smoke brings play and a somewhat realistic feature to a diesel engine that really has no visual motion and sound to go with the visual motion as with a steam engine.
As with all models with smoke if you don't want it to smoke turn it off.
Remember they are still (expensive) toys that allows us in this hobby to create our own little worlds !!!!
MarkStrittmatter posted:I think MTH could have toned down the smoke output...
You do know there is a smoke "volume" to control just how much comes out, right?
I was at Port Clinton yesterday. Those very nice fine folks at the RBMN RR signed us in and let us watch their trains all day. It was VERY fun.
And this one was smoking...
Have Fun with or without smoke.
Ron
I only have LC+ diesels and I always run them with the smoke on. I'm modeling the late 50's early 60's era and the EPA wasn't even a thought yet. The way I look at it is, run them how you like, that's why there is an on/off switch! But, for me, the more smoke there is the better!!
Paul
Signalwoman, I agree with you. I never use the smoke unit in my diesels but just wait tell they stop putting smoke units in them. People will complain tell the cows come home. Don
I like running smoke with one of my favorite scents I don’t care if it’s prototypical or not. Kind of aromatherapy and train therapy all in one! 😑
Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:Pleasant changeable fragrance. Steamer comes around, a nice nose hit, close your eyes. Then relive childhood memories. Life’s to short.
👍
The best use of smoke units I have seen in engines not steam, are those in models of the UP turbines. They all smoked tremendously when in use before the seventies came around. As for other MTH diesels I have with smoke units, some I have removed. Between the smoke fluid getting into places not needed, not wanted, and difficulty putting the shell back on because the fill funnels do not want to all line up at the same time...… Besides, it supplied me with fan driven smoke units for use in other motive power for upgrades or repairs..... I, too, feel diesels are nice with smoke, sometimes. But do not need smoke produced from all my diesels to enjoy them.
Jesse TCA
If it ain't smokin, then it ain't rollin !!
On my layout - LOL
Chris Lonero posted:I like running smoke with one of my favorite scents I don’t care if it’s prototypical or not. Kind of aromatherapy and train therapy all in one! 😑
Apple pie or Christmas pine for me
They make diesels with smoke units because people wanted them! Not everyone has the same tastes in model railroading. I sometimes run with diesel smoke on and sometimes with it off. I have diesels without smoke, and that's fine as well. However, if you don't like diesel smoke, you don't have to use it, so I don't see what the big flap is.
I think the question was asked because it seems like most people on this furum worry about being so "prototypical". From paint to sound to rivets to the amount of chuffs. But when it comes to smoke, they have it billowing out like a blast furnace to the point where it looks silly!
While I have seen some smoke coming from diesels, it is typically more like this photo I took near the AZ/NM border on the BNSF transcon. With the telephoto lens you can see how the heat of combustion distorting the atmosphere. No smoke per, just heat and a clean burning prime mover.
Personally I turn smoke off on all my diesels. Just my preference.
Smoker! Russ
I run DCS so i can set the volume to what i want and when i'm climbing my nice long 2% grade I throttle up the prime mover sound and smoke starts coming out, if its a long train I hit the labor button now more smoke and more RPM's (I keep my smoke set at the minimum on diesels). at the same time I reduce the ground speed. Oh ya now where talking. Five diesels, 2% grade. running in notch 8, ground speed less than 20mph, and light smoke coming out fast.
Thats why i want smoke in my diesels.
clem k posted:I run DCS so i can set the volume to what i want and when i'm climbing my nice long 2% grade I throttle up the prime mover sound and smoke starts coming out, if its a long train I hit the labor button now more smoke and more RPM's (I keep my smoke set at the minimum on diesels). at the same time I reduce the ground speed. Oh ya now where talking. Five diesels, 2% grade. running in notch 8, ground speed less than 20mph, and light smoke coming out fast.
Thats why i want smoke in my diesels.
Thats the great thing about DCS, at least on the app, low, medium and smokem outta the house LOL
I like the aroma therapy from MTH Christmas scent. I'm also prototypically challenged.
Engineer-Joe posted:Hot Water posted:Signalwoman posted:a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
My experience has been; because "smoke", and all the other "steam exiting features", are for play factor in the toy train world.
I was good with your answer Sir.
It applies to me and most of my guest operators.
Now watch the first minute and 1/4 of this video and tell me what color smoke I am seeing?
To me, it's closer to white than black. To others? I don't know.
How about from 21:50 to around 23 minutes? What color is that smoke? I feel it's like my video posted earlier of the MTH GP.
looks like we have been idling for a bit and the heavier parts of the fuel settled on the tops of the pistons anddidn't burn off till under a bit more throttle was applied.They sound like 4 cycle engines and the turbo compressors wheels may have too much end play allowing a lot of low speed air slippage, also somebody up the supply line may be mixing in used motor drain oil
MR_P posted:Thats the great thing about DCS, at least on the app, low, medium and smokem outta the house LOL
Lionel Legacy has the same functionality, low, medium, and high.
John...... does legacy have the engine labor feature also ? I'm not familiar with legacy.
Clem, Legacy has a way better labor feature than DCS, it's continuously adjustable. You can get all sorts of labor levels using the full Legacy control, and the smoke level is indeed controlled based on the labor. When it comes to control like this, Legacy still has the upper hand. I love to have an MU pulling out a big string of cars with the momentum set high and the labor with the prime movers screaming at max RPM, lots of fun.
Good evening, here is photo and a short video of a East Bound NS Coal Train at Conpit on the Conamaugh Line.
These are newer NS road engines and as you can see they produce black smoke.
fastman posted:Engineer-Joe posted:Hot Water posted:Signalwoman posted:a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
My experience has been; because "smoke", and all the other "steam exiting features", are for play factor in the toy train world.
I was good with your answer Sir.
It applies to me and most of my guest operators.
Now watch the first minute and 1/4 of this video and tell me what color smoke I am seeing?
To me, it's closer to white than black. To others? I don't know.
How about from 21:50 to around 23 minutes? What color is that smoke? I feel it's like my video posted earlier of the MTH GP.
looks like we have been idling for a bit and the heavier parts of the fuel settled on the tops of the pistons anddidn't burn off till under a bit more throttle was applied.
More like the engine was cold, and not up to working temperature.
They sound like 4 cycle engines
No they don't, as EMD GP9 units are 2-stroke cycle engines without turbochargers, i.e. the have roots blowers mechanically driven off the rear camshaft gears.
and the turbo compressors wheels may have too much end play allowing a lot of low speed air slippage,
Nope.
also somebody up the supply line may be mixing in used motor drain oil
Now just where did you come up with THAT assumption?????
What it does sound like is, the lead unit is either "hunting" or experiencing wheel slip, thus unloading.
Why do you set the momentum high ? I adjust the rpm's and train speed separately. My labor button just controls sound and smoke volume. DCS momentum really just gives acceleration and deceleration rates.
Hot Water posted:fastman posted:Engineer-Joe posted:Hot Water posted:Signalwoman posted:a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
My experience has been; because "smoke", and all the other "steam exiting features", are for play factor in the toy train world.
I was good with your answer Sir.
It applies to me and most of my guest operators.
Now watch the first minute and 1/4 of this video and tell me what color smoke I am seeing?
To me, it's closer to white than black. To others? I don't know.
How about from 21:50 to around 23 minutes? What color is that smoke? I feel it's like my video posted earlier of the MTH GP.
looks like we have been idling for a bit and the heavier parts of the fuel settled on the tops of the pistons anddidn't burn off till under a bit more throttle was applied.
More like the engine was cold, and not up to working temperature.
They sound like 4 cycle engines
No they don't, as EMD GP9 units are 2-stroke cycle engines without turbochargers, i.e. the have roots blowers mechanically driven off the rear camshaft gears.
and the turbo compressors wheels may have too much end play allowing a lot of low speed air slippage,
Nope.
also somebody up the supply line may be mixing in used motor drain oil
Now just where did you come up with THAT assumption?????
What it does sound like is, the lead unit is either "hunting" or experiencing wheel slip, thus unloading.
outside of Ca air board Cummins automotive operators have been re-cycling motor oil thru the fuel tanks for at least the last 50 years @3% or less Cummins actually made a oil change machine that did this
Oldcarsrule posted:How about electrics with smoke?
Mth Bipolar electric has smoke. it is for the steam heat generator but is an odd feature for an ELECTRIC .
I ran it once with the smoke on, but it looked so odd smoking between the pantagraphs that I haven't turned it on again.
Odd, but not. The GG-1 is the same. They used a diesel steam heat generator as the cars are steam heat. It likely wasn't cost effective to be safe enough to throw the heavy voltage at the water system. (on the passenger GG-1 (Tuscan) you will see lettering at the bottom of the GG-1 body "FUEL" and a filler tube below it. There is also Youtube vid. of a real one...smoking. (Ha! b&w picture so the smoke is........grey 😈...
Must've been awful not watching any tv until color became the norm 
...no classics without a Turner touch ¿??¿ 
Try aiming a violet led into/up the stack if you want color; the smoke will catch it and also make it look thicker. (these are bright, dim works too, note the deeper color in the shadows/overlaps of aim from 3 violet leds.)
I thought the newer locos smoked in load triggered stages already.
I think the hotbox cars use a two stage voltage hi/lo (or mine has issues, but the chànge occurs with increased led action/ more panic in the voice) (essentially 3 load settings if you count being off)
Hey.... Why would they take flashing leds, smoke, and the most annoying sound in the world and make a car? Play value 
The Hotbox Challenge: Search for a Lionel hotbox car video. Now loop the video loudly for an hour, I dare ya 😁
When your engines are new keep the smoke units off. As they get older turn the smoke on at the lowest setting. Later turn it up to medium. Finally you can turn the smoke up on full. After this run take them to the engine house for a rebuild. When they come out from overhaul turn the smoke off. Repeat. Doesn't get any more realistic than that.
When I hired on Conrail back in 1979 a lot of their engines were worn out and smoked. White or grey smoke from oil consumption. Black smoke from too much raw fuel going up the stack.
Marketing. If you are a company producing, say an RS-3, and it is maybe your third or fourth "generation" of RS-3s, what can you do to sell it?? You have to add features. Look at the Lionel progression: transformer control, TMCC, Legacy, and now Lion Chief, Lion Chief Plus, Lion Chief BlueTooth, and Lion Chief Plus 2.0. I have an RS-3 Lion Chief Plus in PRR. Might I buy one that has 2.0 for better sound, TMCC and Legacy compatibility? Maybe. For sure SOME will.
Digital control = marketing. Sound = marketing. Different road names and numbers = marketing. Smoke = marketing. And if your competitor has smoke you better have it too, in order to sell yours. And if his smoke is "smokier" - you better upgrade yours. And, if somehow, one manufacturer develops "progressive smoking"- "Now with realistic progressive smoking- white smoke at warmup- black smoke under load!!" people will buy that feature. How many will buy for that is the question.
Not that it is bad- every one of these features add to our enjoyment. But each of these features add different value for different people, to be evaluated by each of us.
Mike Wyatt posted:Marketing. If you are a company producing, say an RS-3, and it is maybe your third or fourth "generation" of RS-3s, what can you do to sell it?? You have to add features. Look at the Lionel progression: transformer control, TMCC, Legacy, and now Lion Chief, Lion Chief Plus, Lion Chief BlueTooth, and Lion Chief Plus 2.0. I have an RS-3 Lion Chief Plus in PRR. Might I buy one that has 2.0 for better sound, TMCC and Legacy compatibility? Maybe. For sure SOME will.
Digital control = marketing. Sound = marketing. Different road names and numbers = marketing. Smoke = marketing. And if your competitor has smoke you better have it too, in order to sell yours. And if his smoke is "smokier" - you better upgrade yours. And, if somehow, one manufacturer develops "progressive smoking"- "Now with realistic progressive smoking- white smoke at warmup- black smoke under load!!" people will buy that feature. How many will buy for that is the question.
Not that it is bad- every one of these features add to our enjoyment. But each of these features add different value for different people, to be evaluated by each of us.
Yup, same thing with cars. Who really needs a heated steering wheel, blind spot detection, stop and start engine when sitting still. I'm not business expert, but 1. It shows the advances the company is making. 2. "Oh look I like this new feature", it sells the new models. 3. It's a way to justify a price increase every year. Best part is, if you don't want it, turn it off from the handheld, app, switch or tender screw
I once saw a CXS WC dash 8 that left a trail of black smoke.I have seen my fair share of locomotives smoking.Ever seen a train with not enough power or almost at its limit.I saw 2 sd40-2 pulling a freight train of 145 boxcars.They were giving all they had.I do not know if all the cars were loaded.But I can tell you the train had a lot of gons with scrap iron.So yea they smoke if any thing it adds realism.And you can have smoke lightly or not.Its up to you.
If you want to see white smoke....check out YOUTUBE....search large engines cold starts...
It helps the sale of track cleaning cars and fluid. j
In honor of this thread, I lashed up two Legacy Trainmaster engines at our modular show today and ran with full smoke on. 
John you hooligan you !!
I just tell folks something like "I got to get around to changng those piston rings sometime".
My personal opinion is that the problem with requests for realistic features such a this is that once one becomes available attention is drawn to the next that is missing. The quest never ends. And with increased features and details the odds of something breaking or not working increase, fueling additional threads. O Gauge trains have slowly evolved from toys to models to attempts to create exact miniature duplicates in every detail and function. When a detail on a new model is wrong or missing, many here seem to describe the feature as not merely something they want to have but as something they need to have, as if their trains are going to be functioning in the real world. In a few cases it almost seems delusional. Without question this is a free country and we can want or request anything we desire, and many new features over the decades have given real increase in "play value", but it just seems as if some have replaced the joys this great hobby once brought them with the frustration of an unreachable goal.
German posted:When a detail on a new model is wrong or missing, many here seem to describe the feature as not merely something they want to have but as something they need to have, as if their trains are going to be functioning in the real world. In a few cases it almost seems delusional. Without question this is a free country and we can want or request anything we desire, and many new features over the decades have given real increase in "play value", but it just seems as if some have replaced the joys this great hobby once brought them with the frustration of an unreachable goal.
Exactly.
What never fails to amaze me is that if a feature is not included, it becomes a "show stopper" for some folks. I remember a comment from someone about the MTH 60 ton boxcab diesel. The person said in effect that he really liked the boxcabs, but he wouldn't buy one because it didn't have smoke.
It seems the features are becoming more important than the locomotives themselves.
Rusty
MR_P posted:Yup, same thing with cars. Who really needs a heated steering wheel...
Have you ever owned a car with a heated steering wheel? That is the single BEST feature in my Jeep Grand Cherokee. You have no idea how useful and enjoyable that feature is on a cold, winter morning.
Heated seats, heated mirrors, but no heated steering wheel. I use plan -B for that issue.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Heated seats, heated mirrors, but no heated steering wheel. I use plan -B for that issue.
So,,,,,,,,are those electrically heated gloves, like motorcycle riders have?
Rich Melvin posted:MR_P posted:Yup, same thing with cars. Who really needs a heated steering wheel...
Have you ever owned a car with a heated steering wheel? That is the single BEST feature in my Jeep Grand Cherokee. You have no idea how useful and enjoyable that feature is on a cold, winter morning.
I do! I don’t have it in my 4 Runner but my wife has it in her new Rav 4. That with her heated seats guess who’s car we take on a cold New England morning!? 🥶
Can we shoot this topic yet???
Rich Melvin posted:MR_P posted:Yup, same thing with cars. Who really needs a heated steering wheel...
Have you ever owned a car with a heated steering wheel? That is the single BEST feature in my Jeep Grand Cherokee. You have no idea how useful and enjoyable that feature is on a cold, winter morning.
Ever been in Florida/Houston/Phoenix in August? They need a heat pump version to cool it Rich
BobbyD posted:Rich Melvin posted:MR_P posted:Yup, same thing with cars. Who really needs a heated steering wheel...
Have you ever owned a car with a heated steering wheel? That is the single BEST feature in my Jeep Grand Cherokee. You have no idea how useful and enjoyable that feature is on a cold, winter morning.
Ever been in Florida/Houston/Phoenix in August? They need a heat pump version to cool it Rich
Average interior temperature on a non shaded vehicle in Phoenix in the summer is around 160 degrees. In the winter and when the sun is out (which is often) interior temperatures still hit the 80 plus range.
By the way I agree with train nut and agree the topic has flamed out.
Rich Melvin posted:MR_P posted:Yup, same thing with cars. Who really needs a heated steering wheel...
Have you ever owned a car with a heated steering wheel? That is the single BEST feature in my Jeep Grand Cherokee. You have no idea how useful and enjoyable that feature is on a cold, winter morning.
I rented a Jeep last year at an airport and got on the freeway in heavy traffic. My hands started to heat up and then burn. I had trouble just holding the steering wheel. I quickly deduced that the steering wheel was heated but I couldn't find a way to turn it off. This was the first vehicle that I have driven that had a heated steering wheel.
Finally, I had to pull off the freeway into a convenience store parking lot. I wan't going to burn my hands for the next 3 hours. There wasn't a manual in the rented Jeep.
I looked everywhere for an on/off button. There wasn't one. I started to push the buttons on the touch screen controls. I finally found Settings and then Controls and then Something else. The heater on/off button was about 3 screens down under Settings. It took me almost a half hour to figure out how to turn the heat off.
My Nissan has a seat heater physical on/off button. I don't know why Jeep couldn't have put a simple on/off button for the steering wheel heat in the vehicle. It is dangerous trying to figure out settings on a touch screen while driving in heavy traffic at freeway speeds. I am going to make sure that this feature is off before I leave the airport next time.
As far as model train smoke goes, I never use it. NH Joe
Well...if finally happened....way off topic guys! I believe the topic has run its course.....bye...
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