Civil War Era Scale Sized Engines

Grampstrains,

Thanks for your reply.

I looked at that Lionel Lincoln set and I watched a video about it by one of the forum members here.  And again, it just looks "plastic-y" and toy-like.  Granted, many of the engines of that era had garish paint jobs and all.  But still, I have uncovered quite a few On30 models that actually look pretty amazing.  So I know that such things are possible.  Sadly, I don't model On30.

I wonder if a Jefferson Davis era well-made scale locomotive and tender would even sell? Maybe I would be the only buyer...

I don't know, but I'd guess that the SMR locos, which I have looked at in shows, do not have any electronics.   I am more sure that they are not inexpensive.  But they have the appearance nailed down.  Price vs. kids' handling?

I have 3 of the SMR locos and they do NOT come with command control.  Command control can be added, but the electronics (and speakers for sound) have to be installed in a trailing boxcar - there is simply no room in these engines and tenders.  They are tiny next to scale models of more modern locomotives - so much so that the motors are in the tenders and not the engine itself.

That being said, SMR engines are gorgeous museum-quality models.  You will not get any better.  Keep in mind also that these are brass locomotives and must be handled carefully.

The Lionel Lincoln Funeral Train was not a bad model for the price.  I hope to get one some day when the budget allows.

Andy

The only true 1/4" scale Civil War era locomotives are from SMR and the Lionel Lincoln funeral train locomotive.  The SMR three rail versions have an electronic reverse units, the Lionel has a switch for reversing. 

These locomotives generally are too small to have command control, smoke and sound installed inexpensively.  The SMR locomotives are handcrafted brass and are north of $1600.00.

Your best bet would be the MTH General and it's variations.  They're smaller than the Lionel versions and slightly better proportioned.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

 

Your best bet would be the MTH General and it's variations.  They're smaller than the Lionel versions and slightly better proportioned.

While the MTH RailKing  "Generals" are better-proportioned, they are actually noticeably larger than the Lionel versions.

Andy

Andy Hummell posted:

I have 3 of the SMR locos and they do NOT come with command control.  Command control can be added, but the electronics (and speakers for sound) have to be installed in a trailing boxcar - there is simply no room in these engines and tenders.  They are tiny next to scale models of more modern locomotives - so much so that the motors are in the tenders and not the engine itself.

This is good information and also puts the engines of this era into better context regarding their size and proportions -- these are small engines!!!  I have just 1 and it's a bit later into the 1880's - the PRR D6 - that SMR engine does have the motor in the engine, is DCC ready, and also has a smoke unit (never used it). 

That being said, SMR engines are gorgeous museum-quality models.  You will not get any better.  Keep in mind also that these are brass locomotives and must be handled carefully.

Indeed and probably a few rungs up the ladder from anything that would be suitable for the OP's purpose/needs. 

The Lionel Lincoln Funeral Train was not a bad model for the price.  I hope to get one some day when the budget allows.

There really are few options available if one wants truly scale accurate models; PSC also imported the pair for the Golden Spike set, but they are very delicate and tend to run ~$3500.  Finding scratchbuilt 19th century takes a lot of patience, luck, and then financial resources.  One last option might be the old AHM plastic Reno and Genoa and converting them to 3 rail.

Add me to the list of wishing there was some early American steam locomotives with TMCC/Legacy.

Rusty Traque posted:

These locomotives generally are too small to have command control, smoke and sound installed inexpensively. 

I really find that hard to understand.  There is far more room in an O scale 4-4-0 of the 1860s-on than would be found in the an HO version... yet (aside from smoke) it is being done and being done superbly.

Here are some pictures of Bachmann's recently re-tooled 4-4-0, some pictrures of the Central Pacific "Jupiter" scheme, a picture of a less colorful scheme, as well as one of the available in versions with a straight stack and extended smoke box.

These engines can be had with factory installed DCC/Sound in the TENDER. It will creep along at speeds that many O scaler's would envy. IF Bachmann can do it, why can't the O scale mfg'ers?

FWIW: My new-tooling Bachmann "Jupiter" measures a whopping 7.5" over the couplers (that includes locomotive AND tender).  So, a "scale" version of it in O scale should be about 15" long. Where's the problem?

laming posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

These locomotives generally are too small to have command control, smoke and sound installed inexpensively. 

I really find that hard to understand.  There is far more room in an O scale 4-4-0 of the 1860s-on than would be found in the an HO version... yet (aside from smoke) it is being done and being done superbly.

Here are some pictures of Bachmann's recently re-tooled 4-4-0, some pictrures of the Central Pacific "Jupiter" scheme, a picture of a less colorful scheme, as well as one of the available in versions with a straight stack and extended smoke box.

These engines can be had with factory installed DCC/Sound in the TENDER. It will creep along at speeds that many O scaler's would envy. IF Bachmann can do it, why can't the O scale mfg'ers?

FWIW: My new-tooling Bachmann "Jupiter" measures a whopping 7.5" over the couplers (that includes locomotive AND tender).  So, a "scale" version of it in O scale should be about 15" long. Where's the problem?

 

 

Proprietary electronics...

Plus to maintain their full scale and delicate appearance, SMR locomotives have the drive in the tender.

Rusty

Maybe you could help the kids with their diorama by encouraging them to build non-railroad items themselves, instead of furnishing a fancy locomotive. For their purposes, the railroad doesn't necessarily have to be the focus?

Ace

You should see the work the kids have done on the diorama.  Bulwarks.  Tents.  Trees.  Gullies.  Paper mache' everywhere.  Even a little motorcycle has somehow found its way into the mix.  Such inspired work by these forth graders.  No encouragement needed by me.   My contribution of a train is purely selfish.  I just want an excuse to get one!  

laming posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

These locomotives generally are too small to have command control, smoke and sound installed inexpensively. 

I really find that hard to understand.  There is far more room in an O scale 4-4-0 of the 1860s-on than would be found in the an HO version... yet (aside from smoke) it is being done and being done superbly.

Here are some pictures of Bachmann's recently re-tooled 4-4-0, some pictrures of the Central Pacific "Jupiter" scheme, a picture of a less colorful scheme, as well as one of the available in versions with a straight stack and extended smoke box.

These engines can be had with factory installed DCC/Sound in the TENDER. It will creep along at speeds that many O scaler's would envy. IF Bachmann can do it, why can't the O scale mfg'ers?

FWIW: My new-tooling Bachmann "Jupiter" measures a whopping 7.5" over the couplers (that includes locomotive AND tender).  So, a "scale" version of it in O scale should be about 15" long. Where's the problem?

The 2-rail ones do come DCC ready.  In the earlier offerings from SMR, the engines were tender drive units and as such there's actually very little room inside.  I suspect that enterprising individuals could retro-fit other control systems with some effort, however, few folks are willing to disassemble a $2k engine that in most cases is going to spend most of its life on display.  The later PRR D6 is also DCC ready, supplied (not installed), and has a smoke unit, and is also not a tender drive.  The current 4-4-0 engines that remain in stock in 3-rail, Yonah & Amenia, are also DCC ready, supplied (not installed), and have a smoke units - they also appear to not be tender drive units - a mere $1649.95 ea.  The next engine being planned is a Grasshopper - hard to see where one could install control system boards, smoke, sound and a motor to operated the engine....

mwb posted:

<snip> The next engine being planned is a Grasshopper - hard to see where one could install control system boards, smoke, sound and a motor to operated the engine....

Except for the smoke, if the N-scalers can do it..........

rex desilets posted:

mwb posted:

<snip> The next engine being planned is a Grasshopper - hard to see where one could install control system boards, smoke, sound and a motor to operated the engine....

Except for the smoke, if the N-scalers can do it..........

Sure, put an N scale motor in it and you'll have some room......and then a DCC board for that scale and electronic capacity, too.  I guess that's all doable, particularly since few will ever get run nor will actually test the drive in any way, too... 

Its not so much a size issue as it is a copyright issue.  Both Lionel and MTH refuse to license SMR to use their control systems.  So conventional they remain. 

BTW, I haven't used tender drive for several years.  Current SMR locos, since the release of the V&T 2-6-0 Baldwin Moguls have had boiler-mounted motors.   Many of my 2-rail operators have successfully installed DCC in their engines, but like MWB says, a lot of folks are reluctant to tear apart one of my $1500-$1600 jewels.

An N scale (or HO scale) motor isn't a great idea for one of my engines if you plan to pull any sort of consist.

Dave

So, Dave

Are you aware of anyone successfully installing command control other than DCC into your engines (or tenders, as the case may be?)

And why won't Lionel license their product? Clearly, they do it, or have done it for other high end vendors -- Sunset 3rd Rail, for instance,   I don't understand why there would be an issue. Is it volume related?  Is it cost prohibitive?

- Timbo

SMR Trains posted:

Its not so much a size issue as it is a copyright issue.  Both Lionel and MTH refuse to license SMR to use their control systems.  So conventional they remain. 

BTW, I haven't used tender drive for several years.  Current SMR locos, since the release of the V&T 2-6-0 Baldwin Moguls have had boiler-mounted motors.   Many of my 2-rail operators have successfully installed DCC in their engines, but like MWB says, a lot of folks are reluctant to tear apart one of my $1500-$1600 jewels.

An N scale (or HO scale) motor isn't a great idea for one of my engines if you plan to pull any sort of consist.

Dave

Why can't you put ERR in the 3 rail scale locos? Seems as though they sell to anyone.

Lionel decided years ago that it was a mistake to license out their system, so they stopped.

SMR clients have successfully installed both TMCC and DCS in SMR products.  YOU can put ERR in any model you own as you desire.  SMR, as a company/OEM may not.

SMR Trains posted:

Lionel decided years ago that it was a mistake to license out their system, so they stopped.

SMR clients have successfully installed both TMCC and DCS in SMR products.  YOU can put ERR in any model you own as you desire.  SMR, as a company/OEM may not.

And there you have it; instead of doing something that would be productive and income producing, and also increase customer base, the doors get slammed shut.  Another demonstration of pervasive short-sightedness.........

Dave,

 does the drive system in your engines include a flywheel and enough space to mount an optical pickup, as would be needed by an MTH system?

John Z

mwb posted:

SMR Trains posted:

Lionel decided years ago that it was a mistake to license out their system, so they stopped.

SMR clients have successfully installed both TMCC and DCS in SMR products.  YOU can put ERR in any model you own as you desire.  SMR, as a company/OEM may not.

And there you have it; instead of doing something that would be productive and income producing, and also increase customer base, the doors get slammed shut.  Another demonstration of pervasive short-sightedness.........

You're speaking of Lionel I hope.

Ron H posted:

mwb posted:

SMR Trains posted:

Lionel decided years ago that it was a mistake to license out their system, so they stopped.

SMR clients have successfully installed both TMCC and DCS in SMR products.  YOU can put ERR in any model you own as you desire.  SMR, as a company/OEM may not.

And there you have it; instead of doing something that would be productive and income producing, and also increase customer base, the doors get slammed shut.  Another demonstration of pervasive short-sightedness.........

You're speaking of Lionel I hope.

Not SMR, since Dave tries to appeal to as broad a market that his business might reach; really have to applaud his efforts to import high quality accurate models.  I still have hopes of someday seeing a CVRR Pioneer being imported,   

More of a generalized observation and one not even limited to model trains........

Timbo posted:

So, Dave

Are you aware of anyone successfully installing command control other than DCC into your engines (or tenders, as the case may be?)

And why won't Lionel license their product? Clearly, they do it, or have done it for other high end vendors -- Sunset 3rd Rail, for instance,   I don't understand why there would be an issue. Is it volume related?  Is it cost prohibitive?

- Timbo

Grandfathered in. Were Lionel to do it over, Sunset, Atlas, Weaver would be SOL.

I wish smr did another run of those locos and coaches. Or do another 1800 prr steamer!��

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

I wish smr did another run of those locos and coaches. Or do another 1800 prr steamer!��

Indeed!

As much as I want a CVRR Pioneer

(and a 2nd one to make the Jenny Lind), a PRR D7 (re-lettered for CVRR) would be nice:

but even an E1

or an E2c

would be interesting.

That E2C reminds me of the engines that atlas put out a few years ago.

mwb- wasn't there a plastic kit for the Pioneer, once upon a time?

rex desilets posted:

mwb- wasn't there a plastic kit for the Pioneer, once upon a time?

Yes.  Tonka diorama that was produced years ago....