Traction tire woes

Marc,

Just go out and purchase new tire because you don't know long they been on your Engine prior to you purchasing it. Try new tire.

Good luck, John  

Clean the drive wheels including the rubber ones with alcohol.  Clean the track also with alcohol.

Dennis

I had this issue and it turned out that the rails were not perfectly level (side to side)  Put a level across the rails to verify.  Hope this helps.

Steep grades will shorten the life of traction tires dramatically. Especially if you live in a dry climate. 

I know you live in PA so dry climate really don't apply. Step grades and/or heavy trains will stretch the tires, old or new. Once they are stretched out, replace them.

I second Dennis' recommendation to clean the track and wheels with denatured alcohol. You may overdone the lubrication of the side rods.

if you are running conventionally, speed control may become disabled. Check manual to turn it on.

Lastly, change the traction tires. (document attached)

will end all of those problems.

I have used the snot and it does work as it supposed to, BUT.... if you leave your engines sit out on display like I do, they get really bad flat spots in the snot. It's quite a job to get in on thick enough because you have to do it in phases. I no longer use it, just have a tray of extra tires around now and swap them as needed. Like when your car gets a flat, that doughnut has it's limitations... get the tire back on quickly.

I never had a problem with flat spotting. I only put on a thin layer of snot.

Note that the profile of track makes a difference as well. When I was mocking up my layout and using O 72 tubular, locomotives would slip all the time.  When I started to use gargrave and even atlas track the traction effort improved.

Note that sectional track vrs. flex track makes another improvement as well. The sectional track will give the locomotive additional traction improvement as the driver tires dig into the section joints...

I try to keep my slope percent climbs to under 3 percent.

IMO, if the tires aren't coming off, it's likely they don't need replacement.  I'd start by cleaning them properly.  Also, the rolling resistance of the whole consist is key, so make sure everything is properly lubricated.  Finally, I agree with the comments about track condition.  Even a small dip or hump in the track can make a huge difference in traction.

Marc,

I think for the outer loop run 4" height on the 5" piece in the rear would be sufficient for the scenic effect. That would result in a 2.9% grade on the left and a 2.8% grade on the right. I attached the last RRT file I have for your layout with the grades added to 4". The grade heights are shown at the track joints.

I have also reviewed your layout and power threads. The MTH RealTrax switches are power hogs. Do you have them on separate power from the track transformer? Did you put the PW ZW into use or are you still using the Z-1000? Anyway, separating the switches from track power will help, too.

Oh yeah, did anyone mention cleaning the track? RealTrax has a flat railhead, so I don't think you have a contact surface issues.

The problem in my opinion is the 4% grade not the traction tires. On my layout the maximum grade is 2% and I have never had any issues with traction tires from either Lionel or MTH. The weight of the engine and tender going up that 4% grade is the issue.

Is it possible the grade change is lifting the drivers off the rail head? That is a long wheelbase locomotive. Have a friend who has a 2Rail one that will not go around the 14' diameter curve with a minor groink in it on his layout.

Gentlemen,

   TURGBINE is absolutely correct Marc's grade needs to be re-engineered to a max of 3%, engineering at 2% eliminates the problems completely, unless you have a real light engine.  I doubt the traction tiers in this case are his real problem.  Now if you have a big heavy Scale GG1 & a good Z4K Transformer you can run the Grade he now has, most of the lighter engines are not going to pull a full consist without slipping, up the grade he has engineered.

PCRR/Dave

My experience is that it's not the grade that's the primary issue, but rather keeping the traction tires in contact with the rails.  Some locomotives are much more sensitive to the issue than others.  The transition at the start and end of the grade are critical points.  If the pilots don't have enough play, they can lift the drivers and cause you to loose traction.  The scale GG-1 is a perfect example, it doesn't take much to lift it's drivers and cause it to stall.

If you look at Bill Henning's Christmas tree, he pulls a much greater grade on that one with a cheap set locomotive and manages to pull three passenger cars up and down.  Any decent locomotive equipped with traction tires should be able to handle a 4% grade with a reasonable load if the trackwork is right.

Guns,

   You put 10 big cars behind any light engine and it's not pulling that grade, now you can pull short consists without to much of a problem, but I seldom run short consists on anything any more.  I have always wondered about Bill's Christmas tree layout and how many cars he can actually pull behind his engines.  Not to take away from Bills engineering, it is some kind of special for sure.

PCRR/Dave

"My experience is that it's not the grade that's the primary issue, but rather keeping the traction tires in contact with the rails.  "

I've got to agree with John. I have 5% grades coming up and out of my lower level staging yards. Fine tuning the transition areas at the very bottom and very top of the grade so they're smooth and gradual made all the difference for me. I also keep my rolling stock lightly lubricated which makes a big difference.

I would note though, that if you CAN reduce the grade, then you should. In my case, I had to work with the space I had available to make my idea work. That meant 5% grades.

In Marc's case, what he's doing should be no big deal, so I think there is something going on. Lots of good advice to try here as usual. Good luck.

Thanks for all of the replies! I think the two biggest issues are the track not being perfectly flat in areas and then the traction tires not gripping as well as before. I know that the train can pull the cars up the grade. It has pulled as many as 11 (with this locomotive) before without problems. The grade was chosen at 4% out of necessity. I wanted to stick with 3%, but to reach 4" with 3% incline would reach over 10 feet of slope on each side. My layout is only 10'x7', so that simply won't work.  In regards to the traction issue, I can physically feel that the train no longer grips like it used to. I can manually slide the locomotive if I try, which I don't remember in the past. This is no "light" locomotive. It is in fact quite heavy. I have lighter trains that manage this grade quite well and with additional cars. I plan to clean the track and the traction tires themselves further to remove any potential grease. Additionally, what methods have you guys used to flatten the grade in an effective manner? I feel this may be a major contributor to my problem. Even on a truly flat surface, I have noticed that the O-54 realtrax seem to lean to the outside rail. I would imagine this is only worsened by the grade. 

-Marc 

Well if it worked before on the same layout.... either something is oily (very possible) whether its lube or smoke fluid.... or the tires are stretched and slipping on the drivers.  Traction tires are cheap and an easy fix... just change them anyway. Process of elimination ;-)

Pittsburger posted:

 The grade was chosen at 4% out of necessity. I wanted to stick with 3%, but to reach 4" with 3% incline would reach over 10 feet of slope on each side. My layout is only 10'x7', so that simply won't work.  

-Marc 

Marc,

Do you RRTrack? I attached the file to show the grades on your existing layout. RRTrack says it works.

perhaps you can zoom in on this pic of the track plan and see the elevations at the track joint. It 2.8% & 2.9%

Here you go, 140.32" on the left side climbs to 4"

So I have done some experimenting with various locomotives I own. I have come to realize that the problems are stemming from two specific situations. I am sure of the fact that the locomotives have the traction and the power required to pull even much longer trains up this short 4% grade. The problems are stemming from the beginning and the end of the grade and in specific, only with long wheelbase locomotives. My railing SD-9 and premier 0-6-0 switcher can transverse this region of track with no problems. On the other hand, my hudson, GS-4, and to some degree my WM consolidation seem to struggle at the tops and bottoms of the grade. 

Carl, thanks for the RRT files. I will take a look at them and see if I can include that design into my layout. I am considering trying to level out the beginning and end of the grade somewhat. I do not know how l that will work yet. The only problem I see with the ~3% incline is that the incline leads right up to the crossovers on both sides. In my mind, that is far from ideal. 

I'm realizing more and more that layout design is no simple task. The best thought out plans often do not work as well in real life as they do in theory.

Thanks again,

Marc 

I was just up at Alex Malliae's open house and checking out the progress on his new layout.  He has a 4.2% grade on the back wall, and nothing was having any issues at all making the grade.  To add to the issue, there is a 90 degree curve in the middle of the grade!  Even with all that working against him, the transitions looked very smooth at the start and end of the grade, and there was no bobbles at any point.  I'd recommend fine tuning the two ends of the grade, I think that will solve your issue.

I cheat! . .  Two sided tape on one of the outside rails, detacked by fingers and cloth slightly when new. Each strip lasts me about 3 years. Every engine benefits, least effort, cost effective.(left over from heatshrink winter window sealing kit)

Gotta keep at least one spare tire in the trunk