Troubles With Legacy FEF #3751

Double blink is the heater, not the fan motor.  Check the resistor value and make sure it's not hitting the side of the smoke unit bowl.

If it won't move after a reset, that's a whole different issue.  What's the exact product number?

Item # 6-11332 from 2012 I think.

I did another reset using the ID # and set today. Looked good initially, no blinking, and moved forward and reverse fine. Then I switched the smoke on and the double blink business started again. Then I shut it down and when I restarted it would not move and then gave a single steady blinking cab light; maybe twice a second.

I will check the smoke unit heater. I checked it when I last had it apart and it was 9.4 ohms. Supposed to be a stock 8 ohm.

Rod

John, Lionel set that up so when the heater element is bad, the engine will not run.  Another great feature of the RCMC board.   Rod, put in a new element and reprogram the board.   This is one of my favorite locomotives.

It is a great runner once you fix the smoke unit problem ..

I didn't realize that the smoke would actually stop the operation, interesting concept.  I guess Rod has a way forward now.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

John, Lionel set that up so when the heater element is bad, the engine will not run.  Another great feature of the RCMC board.   Rod, put in a new element and reprogram the board.   This is one of my favorite locomotives.

 

Marty; that is a cool feature. Thanks, I will give that a try and hope for the best.

What engine is that in the picture?

Rod

That is the real 3751 under steam at Railfair.

Pretty cool. Nice pics, thanks.

Rod

Well even though the original smoke resistor checked out OK on the ohmmeter, I changed it out to a new one anyway, just in case. No joy unfortunately. After a reset the engine runs fine, except its kind of stuttery at low speed in forward, which I don't remember it doing before. As soon as I switched on the smoke unit, back to sequences of blinking cab lights; except now its blinking in sets of 3 blinks instead of two.

Looks like another shelf queen I guess. Too bad, I really like the engine.

Rod

Rod, three blinks is the fan motor.  That would set up your new running issue.  You know how to do that job.  Don't give up on a great engine for 20 minutes of time.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Rod, three blinks is the fan motor.  That would set up your new running issue.  You know how to do that job.  Don't give up on a great engine for 20 minutes of time.

Hey Marty; I would change it out but when I tested it on 3 VDC it ran just fine and only drew 30 ma. I figured it's OK, but maybe I'll order up a new motor on spec and change it out anyway. Just curious, is there a diagnostic chart somewhere that lists all the various Legacy failure modes, and what the blinks mean?

Rod

put an mth motor in it.

there was a post that I could not find where someone from lionel said the motor might work but it did not have enough torque so it sends a code

Rod, that chart should be in the manual for your locomotive.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I didn't realize that the smoke would actually stop the operation, interesting concept.  I guess Rod has a way forward now.

So a bad $3 smoke unit motor renders the $1,200 engine inoperable? Does it seem like a good plan?

Well, not really.  If you turn off the smoke, the failed $7 motor doesn't affect the rest of the operation.

bigdodgetrain posted:

put an mth motor in it.

there was a post that I could not find where someone from lionel said the motor might work but it did not have enough torque so it sends a code

Not sure an MTH motor would fit. This is a very tiny motor; smaller than PS-1 or PS-2 motors. I vaguely recall a thread a year or two ago about problems with this generation LLC smoke unit motors, but I didn't keep a copy. Any one have any information on the subject? You would think that if this was a known problem, Lionel would have come up with a replacement motor? Maybe they have?

Rod (Lost in a smoky haze.....)

Rod Stewart posted:

bigdodgetrain posted:

put an mth motor in it.

there was a post that I could not find where someone from lionel said the motor might work but it did not have enough torque so it sends a code

Not sure an MTH motor would fit. This is a very tiny motor; smaller than PS-1 or PS-2 motors. I vaguely recall a thread a year or two ago about problems with this generation LLC smoke unit motors, but I didn't keep a copy. Any one have any information on the subject? You would think that if this was a known problem, Lionel would have come up with a replacement motor? Maybe they have?

Rod (Lost in a smoky haze.....)

 

gunrunner has done this before

I have used an MTH smoke fan motor in a Lionel engine, but it was a diesel, SD70MAC. The MTH shaft was shorter but it worked. Still working for maybe a year or so now. The original was DOA right out of the box, first thing I got when I got it going was the dreaded cab blinks. Didn't want to send it back and had the MTH motor so I tried it and got lucky.

I will defer to the guys that work on this stuff all the time, but I was thinking I read here somewhere that Lionel had improved their smoke fan motors, or solved the problems they had or something like that anyway? Could have even been the thread you refer to about the problems?

I've put the MTH motor in a few Legacy Northern's, they fit with just a tiny bit to spare.  I am safety conscious, so I put a piece of Kapton tape on the boiler shell to insure the motor leads don't contact the shell, but they have about 1/16" clearance.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I've put the MTH motor in a few Legacy Northern's, they fit with just a tiny bit to spare.  I am safety conscious, so I put a piece of Kapton tape on the boiler shell to insure the motor leads don't contact the shell, but they have about 1/16" clearance.

John; OK good to know. I think I have a couple of spare MTH fan motors around so I will give that a try next. Thanks!

Rod

Go back and check all the wiring.  It is possible something came loose while working on the smoke unit.  Grounded antenna, loose wire terminal, etc...  Just systematically check each connector.   G

GGG posted:

Go back and check all the wiring.  It is possible something came loose while working on the smoke unit.  Grounded antenna, loose wire terminal, etc...  Just systematically check each connector.   G

Good suggestion George, will do. There is a surprising number of inter-connections between the frame and the shell, what with all the switches now mounted on top, as you know. But because the Legacy boards are so much smaller than older TMCC, there is still a lot of free space inside the boiler. Makes you wonder why they went to the smaller smoke unit; it looks like the larger one would have fit just fine.

Rod

The other thing is the antenna wire can pull on the Radio board and unseat the pins, or even break one, so you could have an issue there.  G

Check all items George threw out.  The radio board that mounts on top of the RCMC  board may look solid but it is common to have the bins break from the board and it looks seated.  It has 4 pins on one side and 3 on the other.  I had that engine this week and the front handrails were not in the insulating grommets on the front of the boiler.  Handrails touched ground and no Legacy communication could be had.

Thanks George and Marty;

I will check the antenna and R4LC boards and all antenna grommets just to make sure. I did find I have stock on the MTH fan motors so I will likely go ahead and change the Lionel fan motor out as well. We shall see.

Rod

Rod, that engine does not have an R4LC board.  It has the newer RCMC board.  The small radio receiver board plugs into the RCMC board.

Thanks Marty; I will look for that. Does it have a new number designation?

Rod

The RCMC board is p/n 691-RCMC-B01.  When you order a new RCMC board the antenna board comes with the board.   If you do find a bad radio receiver board and you might, you know what to do from there.  I know you know a guy who knows a guy.