027 Gauge - Any Choices

You need to check any locomotive you buy to see if it will negotiate 027 curves before actually buying it. As a general rule, any Lionel postwar steamer except the scale Hudson and the Berkshire should work. Postwar diesels that will work are the NW-2, the GP-9 and the Alco FA-2. I have seen videos where the GG-1 electric will run on 027 track, but I have never actually tried it myself. The Fairbanks-Morse and F-3 diesels will NOT run on 027 track. For freight cars, the scout and 6464 series will work. Usually any freight car that is 10 inches long or less will work. For passenger cars, the 2400 series will run on 027 track. That's all I can think of off the top of my head.  

I would strongly urge you to look at O-31 if you can fit it which will let you run just about all traditionally size equipment and make use of the more refined O22 tubular switches. There is even O-31 Fastrack and switches should you want to go that route.

As with any track and equipment, you must look at the minimum curve specifications and ensure that it is smaller or equal to your smallest curve size on a given route.

As for other track choices beyond O-27 tubular, that can get you the small tight curves, you can look at using something like Gargraves flex track. Be warned that shaping the flex track, especially tightly, can be "an experience". People have built jigs to help them make the bends.

Thanks.  I'm not planning to buy one of those large $2,000 locomotives.  

I had an O27 layout for a long time, and a pretty large selection of locos.  There's a little misinformation in the posts above.

At least some, maybe most Lionel F3 diesels WILL run on O27 track.  I'm pretty sure the 2243 Texas Special was originally sold in an O27 set.  GG-1s will definitely negotiate O27 track and switches with no issues.  The giant 773 Hudson WILL go around O27 curves, although it looks ridiculous and the overhang may threaten nearby structures.  Pretty much any Postwar or MPC-era Lionel, Marx, etc., is fine EXCEPT the Berkshires (which have a longer wheelbase than the Hudson) and the Fairbanks-Morse Trainmaster.

MTH RailKing diesels, at least the ones with 4-axle trucks, and steam locos with up to six driving wheels should be fine too.  But with rubber tires on both sides of the same axle, these may slow noticeably because the wheels cannot "skid" around these sharp curves, which is essential to smooth operation.

One point of confusion about "what will run on O27" involves 1121 / 1122 and 5121 / 5122 switches.  These had large plastic motor boxes to cover the switch coils, and in the case of the 5122, a target indicator that sticks up showing the track direction.  If your track plan includes switches and S-curves, you may have issues with pilots ("cow-catchers"), railings, and cab roofs hitting the switch indicators.  Also, see my comment about Marx O27 switches below.

S-curves are a bad design practice that should be avoided if possible.  No matter what, it's important to allow sufficient clearance between adjacent tracks.  There are no real "standards."  Experiment with your largest equipment, or borrow some large equipment to test with.

Sharp curves result in a lot of centrifugal force.  I strongly advise you to put some type of border or safety barrier around the edge of your door to keep trains on the platform and off the floor!  This can be plexiglass, or even just a wall made of 1 x 4s around the edges (which will help to stiffen the platform.)

I have experience with O27 and O31 switches, including Lionel O22s.  The O22s have some nice features such as being able to swap the switch motor to the opposite side, and an option to power them from fixed voltage.  But I wouldn't really call them "refined."  They are pretty bumpy; trains tend to rumble through them with a lot of bouncing.  At 50 years old, it'll be hard to find some without a lot of wear.  I'm pretty sure Fasttrack O31 switches would be smoother.  

One problem with upgrading beyond O27 is that the cost of switches increases dramatically, and the geometry of the larger curves is limiting; you end up with much shorter straightaways.  One of the best O27 switches was made by Marx.  It has a flat, featureless metal box to cover the switch coils.  A large section of rail pivots on a center point, so it's not realistic LOOKING.  But it works very well with many types of locos.

If saving money is an issue, consider using manual switches on the front side where they can be reached, and save the electrically controlled switches for the middle and back of the layout.

Honestly if I were going to build a small tabletop layout today, I would beg, borrow, or steal to get 6 x 10 or at least 5 x 9.  And I would use O36 track and switches from Atlas.  If your platform is deeper than 36" you'll need to allow a 14"-16" access aisle along the back wall so you can get back there to reach derailments, clean the track, etc.  Welcome to a fun adventure!!

If you can, check out Patrick Jean’s door-size layout in the December 2017 O Gauge Rail-roading. An amazing layout using Atlas track and switches. The curves were all O-27, but with larger switches. I was really impressed!

Since most building codes call for exterior doors to be 36" wide, maybe that will open up your possibilities. To say that O31-O36 is a better choice is an understatement for sure. Also, from building model airplanes on doors, I can tell you that hollow core doors seem to not warp as much as solid core.

To answer Jerry's question - which is not entirely clear - if he's looking for other brands of tubular 027 track, YES they are out there. MARX, K-Line and Williams by Bachmann would be the brands. The other possibility is Gargraves, which matches in height tubular 027, but Gargraves minimum curve in sectional track is 32 inches.

Basically as long as the diameter of the curve fits on your particular door, you're good to go. But you might not be able to design as complex an operating layout. And the larger track height of either tubular 0 or any of the road bed track types, I find visually distracting on a small layout surface like a hollow core door. And in the case of road bed track, it also takes up more space in general, meaning less room for buildings or scenery.

Okay, over the years, I've built at least a half-dozen layouts on hollow core doors. All have been with 027 track, many with all Lionel switch tracks (though I have used MARX and Lionel from differing production periods). All the layouts have had track configurations you should supposedly avoid, including "S" curves, and I've never had any problems.

The key to that is you either keep your trains short (ie: only a few cars), or you do as I do, and remove the typical rivet that holds the trucks to the car body. This loose rivet mounting will be the number one cause of derailments on tight 027 curves, especially when backing up a train.

Some other pointers on door layouts, all learned by experience.

• To reduce the unavoidable rumble noise cause by the hollow core door, I make track ties out of brown foam such as can be bought at Michaels or Hobby Lobby. I also use a short piece of self-adhesive insulation striping on the underside of each metal track tie. I use only enough screws to secure the track in place, but the foam insulation below the tie also helps to absorb some of the noise transfer from metal screws.
• Older hollow core doors seem to be made of more durable and thicker materials. That's my preference. Either way, it's a good idea to add some bracing to the door to prevent bending. A lot of N-scale guys build layouts on hollow core doors, but their trains aren't as heavy. Anyways, I use Liquid Nails, a few couple screws and attach nice straight 1x4's to each side of the hollow core door for some added support. It also enlarges your door width by 1-1/2."
• Smaller sized traditional or 027 types of trains (like the MARX plastic 3/16 or the K-Line 5000-series) look better on a smaller layout. As do smaller sorts of engines. So while most non-high end Lionel GP-9's will negotiate 027 curves and clear switch box housings, the Lionel NW2, traditional Centercab switcher or Alco FA look far better on such tight curves. But I do suppose that is also a matter of personal preference. K-Line made a bunch of traditional locos like their Alco FA, MP-15, S-2 switcher and RDC Budd Car that are good bargains price-wise and look good size wise. 
• There are plenty of lower cost engines out there on the secondary market that will run and look fine on a door layout with 027 track. The KEY POINT is what you are powering them with. Many of the engines with truck mounted DC can motors DO RUN FAST with a typical Lionel transformer, because most have a minimal 6 volts to the track. You can either rewire the motors to series, or use a transformer that puts out a lower minimal voltage to the track. The Lionel 1033 can't be beat for this: A choice of two voltage settings to the track, with one working better for postwar/MPC and the other works great for the can motored engines I just mentioned.
• Another side point to these lower cost can motored engines is that they were made in LARGE quantities with universal parts. In the case of K-Line, they're out of business. So if you end up needing parts and you can't find them, you can always find a second unit to cob for parts. Same goes for Lionel. There's instances where you can buy a used starter set Lionel 4-4-2 engine for less than the parts you might need for another one.

I could write a book about tips and pointers for making door layouts. Like anything else, there are compromises. But in lieu of not having a layout at all, I find hollow core door layouts can be the compromise answer. And if you're on a budget to start with, then using 027 track is definitely keep you in check as many of the newer (and expensive) more scale proportioned trains aren't going to make that tight curve.

A final pointer: Lionel is not exactly honest... maybe it's just oversight... as to what will and will not run on 027 curves. If you look a pre-FasTrack Lionel catalog, you'll see a good many engines (including the FT diesel) that came in starter sets with 027 track, BUT NOW have minimal curves listed as 031. Now, Lionel is not making tubular 027 track, and that could be the reason. Except for the little fact that rolling stock in the same catalogs will be listed as 027 minimal curve. 

@Ted S posted:

I had an O27 layout for a long time, and a pretty large selection of locos.  There's a little misinformation in the posts above.

At least some, maybe most Lionel F3 diesels WILL run on O27 track.  I'm pretty sure the 2243 Texas Special was originally sold in an O27 set.  GG-1s will definitely negotiate O27 track and switches with no issues.  The giant 773 Hudson WILL go around O27 curves, although it looks ridiculous and the overhang may threaten nearby structures.  Pretty much any Postwar or MPC-era Lionel, Marx, etc., is fine EXCEPT the Berkshires (which have a longer wheelbase than the Hudson) and the Fairbanks-Morse Trainmaster.

MTH RailKing diesels, at least the ones with 4-axle trucks, and steam locos with up to six driving wheels should be fine too.  But with rubber tires on both sides of the same axle, these may slow noticeably because the wheels cannot "skid" around these sharp curves, which is essential to smooth operation.

One point of confusion about "what will run on O27" involves 1121 / 1122 and 5121 / 5122 switches.  These had large plastic motor boxes to cover the switch coils, and in the case of the 5122, a target indicator that sticks up showing the track direction.  If your track plan includes switches and S-curves, you may have issues with pilots ("cow-catchers"), railings, and cab roofs hitting the switch indicators.  Also, see my comment about Marx O27 switches below.

S-curves are a bad design practice that should be avoided if possible.  No matter what, it's important to allow sufficient clearance between adjacent tracks.  There are no real "standards."  Experiment with your largest equipment, or borrow some large equipment to test with.

Sharp curves result in a lot of centrifugal force.  I strongly advise you to put some type of border or safety barrier around the edge of your door to keep trains on the platform and off the floor!  This can be plexiglass, or even just a wall made of 1 x 4s around the edges (which will help to stiffen the platform.)

I have experience with O27 and O31 switches, including Lionel O22s.  The O22s have some nice features such as being able to swap the switch motor to the opposite side, and an option to power them from fixed voltage.  But I wouldn't really call them "refined."  They are pretty bumpy; trains tend to rumble through them with a lot of bouncing.  At 50 years old, it'll be hard to find some without a lot of wear.  I'm pretty sure Fasttrack O31 switches would be smoother.  

One problem with upgrading beyond O27 is that the cost of switches increases dramatically, and the geometry of the larger curves is limiting; you end up with much shorter straightaways.  One of the best O27 switches was made by Marx.  It has a flat, featureless metal box to cover the switch coils.  A large section of rail pivots on a center point, so it's not realistic LOOKING.  But it works very well with many types of locos.

If saving money is an issue, consider using manual switches on the front side where they can be reached, and save the electrically controlled switches for the middle and back of the layout.

Honestly if I were going to build a small tabletop layout today, I would beg, borrow, or steal to get 6 x 10 or at least 5 x 9.  And I would use O36 track and switches from Atlas.  If your platform is deeper than 36" you'll need to allow a 14"-16" access aisle along the back wall so you can get back there to reach derailments, clean the track, etc.  Welcome to a fun adventure!!

Thanks for all that info!

I used Gargraves O-27 sectional track for my Christmas layout. You can find it on eBay now and then. I run Lionel postwar with MTH RailKing passenger cars. These work fine with my curved tunnel openings.

To illustrate what is, and isn’t possible; this is a 78” x 36” door, loco is a Lionel semi-Scale Berkshire 

1) Lionel O31 Track including short straight in curve and reversing loop, it seemed to fit together better that way

2) Lionel O27 Track, O27 switches including passing loop, reversing loop and two sidings. Essentially this allows two trains to be on the layout together. It would be possible to set it up so that they alternated, stopping automatically in the passing loop, but I didn’t try that yet. 

As you can see, you get a lot more operating potential with O27. Trains are basically loco plus three cars. The 24xx carriages suit it very well. 

I have had a Williams die-cast Scale Hudson around this loop, but there is a tendency for the tender to derail. The “semi-Scale” version includes a shorter tender, which would make sense. Lionel and K Line semi-Scale Hudsons, the semi-Scale PE 2-8-4 and traditional-sized PW locos like the #2025 2-6-2 romp round and the 0-4-0 switcher looks good, too. 

One point about electric switches - the instructions warn against leaving locos too close to them, making the contact for the solenoid and eventually, damaging the switch. I looked at electric switches and concluded that they were not appropriate, for that reason.

I also looked at O42 radius switches, and O42 easements into the curves but they just take up too much room.  

@Joe Hohmann posted:

I used Gargraves O-27 sectional track for my Christmas layout. You can find it on eBay now and then. I run Lionel postwar with MTH RailKing passenger cars. These work fine with my curved tunnel openings.

Is that three-rail track?  I see only two rails.

@Jerryc41 posted:

Is that three-rail track?  I see only two rails.

Gargraves has a blackened center rail and black ties. I've had this layout since 1986. A closer look.

@Rockershovel posted:

To illustrate what is, and isn’t possible; this is a 78” x 36” door, loco is a Lionel semi-Scale Berkshire 

1) Lionel O31 Track including short straight in curve and reversing loop, it seemed to fit together better that way

2) Lionel O27 Track, O27 switches including passing loop, reversing loop and two sidings. Essentially this allows two trains to be on the layout together. It would be possible to set it up so that they alternated, stopping automatically in the passing loop, but I didn’t try that yet. 

As you can see, you get a lot more operating potential with O27. Trains are basically loco plus three cars. The 24xx carriages suit it very well.  

Should there be two pictures here?

@Joe Hohmann posted:

Gargraves has a blackened center rail and black ties. I've had this layout since 1986.

I realized that after I posted the question.  I like the look of the Gargraves.

@Jerryc41 posted:

Should there be two pictures here?

Yes - Fixed it now

When I recently ordered some Atlas 0-45 and straights from Trainworld I noticed that Atlas makes 0-27 curves with the blacked out center rail. 

https://www.trainworld.com/man...full-curved-section/

@Chris Lonero posted:

When I recently ordered some Atlas 0-45 and straights from Trainworld I noticed that Atlas makes 0-27 curves with the blacked out center rail. 

https://www.trainworld.com/man...full-curved-section/

Thanks.  I've decided to go with multi-tie, black center rail track, either Gragraves or Atlas.  So, I've made one decision.  : )

Now I have to decide if it's going in the living room or the bedroom.  I'm still inclined to go with a narrow layout.  I have the Strasburg set and an old 2026 locomotive.

@Jerryc41 posted:

 

Now I have to decide if it's going in the living room or the bedroom. 

My permanent layout is 5x8, and in my bedroom. I get to look at it at least twice a day.

@Chris Lonero posted:

When I recently ordered some Atlas 0-45 and straights from Trainworld I noticed that Atlas makes 0-27 curves with the blacked out center rail. 

https://www.trainworld.com/man...full-curved-section/

I just did a search for Atlas 027 track, and this is all I got.

https://www.trainworld.com/search/?q=Atlas+027+track