Missed this. But there's clearly a market for toy scale engines at good prices that negotiate small radius (like O31) curves. I hope Menard's offers a Pennsy and some O31 passenger cars someday. I'd be all over that! Bring on the silhouettes! :-)
How did you get it so fast??
I think Menard's is doing a great thing here. It further goes to show that people on OGR often make bold claims about things they have no knowledge or insight to base this on. Like all the many predictions and declarations so many times before this proves that only those who know actually know and everything else is as valuable as asking the magic 8 ball for answers.
Good job Mark!
@Rusty Traque posted:As I mentioned above, the loco is more or less an FP7 and not an F3. FP7's were 4 feet longer than F3/7/9's. It would be interesting if one of the 200 has a GDD FP7 to compare length only to.
While the next photo is of S Scale models, it illustrates the difference in length between an F3 and FP7.
Otherwise, the devil is in the details, but given the price point for this product I'm not going to drill down into them. I'm taking it for what it is: a reasonably priced, attractive, entry level O gauge locomotive.
Rusty
I have several Sunset FP7s in 2R. Knowing that this locomotive is closer in scale to an FP7 makes it a prime candidate for a makeover even if I plan on keeping the Menards "pre-production" version as-is for just having fun with at local events when I operate with an existing "homeless" ATSF F3B I already have. I'll take a side by side photo when mine arrives over the weekend. I could see repainting production versions for the FP7s on the Verde Valley Railroad.
I think what we are witnessing with this Menards F unit is a benchmark for the O gauge community. This is a loco that is affordable for the first time toy train operator or the young family that wants to start a layout without spending a small fortune. Combined with Menards rolling stock and track , the entry level train set is now possible. As far as lack of detail and such, lets not overthink it, that just adds to the price and there are plenty of alternatives out there. I model O scale two rail and would be considered "a rivets counter rivet counter" oh the horror! But any new affordable loco to the O gauge world is a mighty good thing for all. Oh, and for you first 200 buyers out there, run em till the wheels fall off and give Menards feedback. You are the test market so don't leave them on a shelf unboxed. Doug
Here’s a video I found on youtube (not mine): https://youtu.be/0BHI3BUrjp8
@pc cr ns yard rat posted:"But any new affordable loco to the O gauge world is a mighty good thing for all. Oh, and for you first 200 buyers out there, run em till the wheels fall off and give Menards feedback. You are the test market so don't leave them on a shelf unboxed. Doug"
I think this is an amazing way to both create interest and get feedback. Menards has surprised everyone. Even better would be to see them passed around! ;-)
It seemed that one of MTH's biggest beta tester issues was the same folks tested everything and some things improved 2 steps forward while others were 1 step back with the software updates.
Remote update - I fixed it, multimeter to the rescue. I was testing the leads off the back after having it open and I was getting no volts. After that it had to be the contact plates and sure enough they were set a hair off so the positive sides of the batteries weren't touching, but with the naked eye it's difficult to see this. I took a flat heat screwdriver and bent them slightly inward.
Works fine now.
Something to add the list @Menards, I will email Ray as well.
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Just saw the YouTube video- looks like Menards has a winner here!! JohnA
@BNSF-Matt posted:Remote update - I fixed it, multimeter to the rescue. I was testing the leads off the back after having it open and I was getting no volts.I took a flat heat screwdriver and bent them slightly inward.
Works fine now.
How about an updated video of operation on your layout?
That youtube video link above is tough to watch with the engine only being on 2 feet of track and spinning the throttle 360 degrees etc.
@RickO posted:How about an updated video of operation on your layout?
That youtube video link above is tough to watch with the engine only being on 2 feet of track and spinning the throttle 360 degrees etc.
Started working on that now Rick. I plan on doing a feature overview and then pull some MTH 18" SF cars and then some Lionel Heavyweights too. See how our Chief holds up.
@BNSF-Matt posted:18 volts from my Z4000. It's the remote that's the problem, the power indicator on the remote doesn't even light up. I opened the remote, solder joints look fine, no bad wires that I could see. Main board looks fine, no burn spots or damage. I think I just have a bad remote.
Try reversing the batteries
I would bet a simply speaker upgrade and baffle would improve on the sound a lot. I think it's a nice engine and agree the video left a lot to be desired. I would like to know if these remotes are linked to the individual locomotive and what frequency is being used? Hopefully this is the case so multiple can be operated at the same time.
@biscuitag97 posted:Here’s a video I found on youtube (not mine): https://youtu.be/0BHI3BUrjp8
I would suggest not sugar coating opinions - too much. Regarding the vid, and again, Mark is asking for feedback. I thought the packaging was ok. However, if it's going to cause paint finish issues then packaging definitely needs to be looked into. I don't care much for the length, but, then, I'm a purist. If it's going to be marketed as an F3/F7 then get it to a little more scale length. The issue with no batteries, almost all electronics manufacturers provide batteries. I realize this is a beta test, but something to keep in mind. The start speed seems too fast. Almost like the old lionel transformers that start at 6 volts (or what ever the voltage is). That worked ok for PW loks, but newer electronic e-unit loks with DC motors, that's a pretty high voltage.
So, yeah, in closing, just a FWIW. I want this to succeed, as I'm sure many of you do, so, we've got to be honest with Mark (and Menards) with our feed back.
Steve
I was not expecting scale detail but I was hoping their engines (as in this and future releases) would be close to scale length. In the video it looks small compared to the 40' boxcar. As others, waiting for some good reviews.
@biscuitag97 posted:Here’s a video I found on youtube (not mine): https://youtu.be/0BHI3BUrjp8
OK, that's disturbing. Hopefully mine doesn't have those problems. It's not just the paint defects and the dent.
John
For those who wished for different control systems from Menards first offering, that's where the aftermarket kit people can step in with modification kits to add track power, TMCC, DCS, Bluetooth, etc. At $150 many people will have no qualms doing add-on modifications to give them exactly what they want - and still end up with a loco costing hundreds of $$$ less than an offering from the big guys.
Pennyslover
This has great potential. I hope the final production models can be run with the Universal Remote.
Found out about this yesterday, and for me it was a very pleasant surprise. My only real gripe about this locomotive are the chrome trucks and couplers, but if that's not gonna be there for the next run, then please disregard my complaint. I also think it would be better to make it where it can run conventionally and not just with the remote. But again, if that's not the case, then never mind. 
Overall, if the quality is good, and it can run well without needing to be constantly repaired, this may be the best bang-for-your-buck in the modern O scale market period. This could not only be a better value than LionChief offerings, but possibly even Williams locomotives too. And I say this even though I am a fairly big Lionel fan.
Keep in mind if you don’t like the remote etc, a $5.00 rectifier will turn it into a nice dual motored loco.
Steve
@Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:Keep in mind if you don’t like the remote etc, a $5.00 rectifier will turn it into a nice dual motored loco.
Steve
Well said!
it's there first try at a locomotive and hopefully there won't be to many like the one in the video. But for the price I wouldn't be too upset with the sound and cosmetic defects. I'd be happy if it just ran nice.
Didn't order one this time around. You know what they say never buy a car in it's first year of production, give them a chance to work the bugs out.
Hopefully, there won't be to many problems which might cause Menards to stop producing them.
@Madockawando posted:This has great potential. I hope the final production models can be run with the Universal Remote.
You have to get off your fixation. Lionel’s universal remote is for Lionel products. This isn’t a Lionel product, and the remote won’t recognize it.
@Jim R. posted:You have to get off your fixation. Lionel’s universal remote is for Lionel products. This isn’t a Lionel product, and the remote won’t recognize it.
No , it’s not a “fixation.” It’s a desire for a simple and basic interoperability. And guess what? I am not the only one who would like to see this feature on these locomotives. I’m sure it would be a simple issue to resolve. We have trains from multiple manufacturers that all run on the O gauge track and can couple with each other. Why not have it operate with a UNIVERSAL remote as well? Heck, the Menards’ remote even looks like Lionel’s LC remotes. Do we need yet another O gauge operating system? 🤔
Seems like Menards has positioned itself to become the 3 rail equivalent of what Tyco was in HO: cheap toy trains that run. Not for us scale guys but if you just want a cheap BRAND NEW train to run here's your answer.
@Lou1985 posted:Seems like Menards has positioned itself to become the 3 rail equivalent of what Tyco was in HO: cheap toy trains that run. Not for us scale guys but if you just want a cheap BRAND NEW train to run here's your answer.
I agree. I’m not a scale guy. I do appreciate attention to detail and performance. This locomotive from Menards seems like a good starter locomotive.
@Madockawando posted:No , it’s not a “fixation.” It’s a desire for a simple and basic interoperability. And guess what? I am not the only one who would like to see this feature on these locomotives. I’m sure it would be a simple issue to resolve. We have trains from multiple manufacturers that all run on the O gauge track and can couple with each other. Why not have it operate with a UNIVERSAL remote as well? Heck, the Menards’ remote even looks like Lionel’s LC remotes. Do we need yet another O gauge operating system? 🤔
If O gauge manufacturers wanted a common operating system, they would have worked with the NMRA and DCC manufacturers years ago.
I'd wager Lionel only wants the Universal Remote to be able to operate Lionel and American Flyer LionChief equipped locomotives.
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:If O gauge manufacturers wanted a common operating system, they would have worked with the NMRA and DCC manufacturers years ago.
I'd wager Lionel only wants the Universal Remote to be able to operate Lionel and American Flyer LionChief equipped locomotives.
Rusty
Why would you make that assumption? I doubt Lionel sees Menards as a competitor at their level and it would help the sales of both Lionel and Menards if these new locomotives can be run with the Lionel UNIVERSAL LionChief remote.
Once again, your adding cost when you license a command system from another entity.
It amazes me that people want the price AND the goodies.
If your so hooked on Lion Chief, cannibalize the running gear from a cheap LC and put it into a Menards.
The masses who want this type of engine want it kept in the Volkswagon price range , not accessory laden and skyrocketing price.
I personally like it is a basic locomotive. If it works well, our layout wears out this type of locomotive and these would look great pulling our kid fantasy cars on the publicly run tracks.
@Madockawando posted:No , it’s not a “fixation.” It’s a desire for a simple and basic interoperability. And guess what? I am not the only one who would like to see this feature on these locomotives. I’m sure it would be a simple issue to resolve. We have trains from multiple manufacturers that all run on the O gauge track and can couple with each other. Why not have it operate with a UNIVERSAL remote as well? Heck, the Menards’ remote even looks like Lionel’s LC remotes. Do we need yet another O gauge operating system? 🤔
The problem is that the Lionel Universal remote really isn't "Universal". The LC control system is another proprietary system just like TMCC. Legacy, and DCS. Plus, the code for this "universal" proprietary system is not available for anyone to license or openly use in their trains. Just because a manufacture slaps the name "universal" on a controller doesn't mean it will work with everything even if the remote looks similar to something else. The Lionel universal remote is a Lionel Product designed to work with exclusively with other Lionel products. Until they license the LC technology, it will remain closed to everyone else.
We can all dream, I was hoping that the Universal remote would run my $20 train set from Wal-Mart even though the remotes looked similar but no luck on that:
On another note, I didn't notice an FCC ID on the remote or engine. That tidbit of info would really help identifying the wireless technology and frequencies used in this system.
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@H1000 posted:The problem is that the Lionel Universal remote really isn't "Universal". The LC control system is another proprietary system just like TMCC. Legacy, and DCS. Plus, the code for this "universal" proprietary system is not available for anyone to license or openly use in their trains. Just because a manufacture slaps the name "universal" on a controller doesn't mean it will work with everything even if the remote looks similar to something else. The Lionel universal remote is a Lionel Product designed to work with exclusively with other Lionel products. Until they license the LC technology, it will remain closed to everyone else.
We can all dream, I was hoping that the Universal remote would run my $20 train set from Wal-Mart even though the remotes looked similar but no luck on that:
On another note, I didn't notice an FCC ID on the remote or engine. That tidbit of info would really help identifying the wireless technology and frequencies used in this system.
I’m sure an arrangement between Lionel and Menards to their mutual benefit can be worked out. Looking at the size and shape of the Menards remote it looks like they are already 90% there right now. Companies license other companies operating systems, this one looks real easy to do.
Menards is releasing this locomotive in order to ask for feedback back from the train hobby public. My feedback is: make it compatible with the Lionel Orange Universal remote. Who would oppose that?
@Ron_S posted:Once again, your adding cost when you license a command system from another entity.
It amazes me that people want the price AND the goodies.
If your so hooked on Lion Chief, cannibalize the running gear from a cheap LC and put it into a Menards.
The masses who want this type of engine want it kept in the Volkswagon price range , not accessory laden and skyrocketing price.
I personally like it is a basic locomotive. If it works well, our layout wears out this type of locomotive and these would look great pulling our kid fantasy cars on the publicly run tracks.
Who said it would increase costs? You don’t know that. Assuming no price difference, why would you not want it to be compatible with the Lionel Universal remote?
Lionel is not in business to GIVE away technology, they license and expect royalties for their product, look at K-line and their demise.
Menards is making ENTRY level trains for those who want and NEED toys and playthings that are affordable for many families. What your asking is not cheap, and if looking similar is all it takes, then buy a knockoff Rolex and be happy.
Business models are for profit, and what you feel is mutually beneficial for both is not something that could happen with $150 engines. Your not going to be making share holders happy with the proceeds. I applaud Menards for doing what they do, which is make QUALITY toys, trains, buildings and fun stuff most people can afford.
Are you squawking at MTH to bring DCS into a universal remote compatibility?
From what I see of the remote PCB, it is very simple and probably on the concept of RC cars, frequency based and cheap to build, if Menards can make it switchable to run with their remote OR conventionally, THAT would be a Home Run for the market they are targeting.
@Madockawando posted:I’m sure an arrangement between Lionel and Menards to their mutual benefit can be worked out. Looking at the size and shape of the Menards remote it looks like they are already 90% there right now. Companies license other companies operating systems, this one looks real easy to do.
Menards is releasing this locomotive in order to ask for feedback back from the train hobby public. My feedback is: make it compatible with the Lionel Orange Universal remote. Who would oppose that?
That arrangement will cost Menards money and Lionel isn't in the business of letting other manufactures make money from their technology for free. The remotes are similar but the PCB inside is definitely not interchangeable.
I get it, the remotes look similar and that generated giddy hope, but Menards hasn't carried any Lionel product on the shelves or online for a while now. The store manager at our Menards said the most of the Lionel sets sat on shelves Christmas after Christmas until the prices were slashed to a loss. The only thing our Menards carries in trains set anymore are Bachman HO items and their own line of track, rolling stock and buildings.
I suspect that this "SPECIAL TEST RUN PRICE" is just that - a one time price. I'm betting that when the locomotive is finally brought to market it will be closer to $225.00 or maybe even higher. 
At the price point these started at, our club could modify with a simple Bridge Rectifier to be forward only and run the pants off them delighting the public and enjoy doing it.
I am sure those who like to tinker, especially Gunrunner and his peers will be offering goodie boards to enhance them, as well as being able to ERR convert them for those who want true command.
These look to be exciting additions, and like Henry Ford, I want Menards to keep them in a families budget range, so every home can have one.
Your most likely right Wild Mary, but even $225 beats a Williams MSRP, costs will determine everything, from manufacture, shipping, sales volume and enthusiasm for the product.
Menards has proven they can keep the price reasonable for their rolling stock, accessories, building and track. Economy of scale can help but it looks like Menards is easing into the market and lots of factors in the future will let us know if it will be kept on the shelves. They have a good start, I hope it grows and the line of product continues to be popular and wanted.
Interesting, but not totally unexpected, that the $129 price point could convert the steadily increasing interest in direct to loco wireless control systems into a frenzy. If it runs well on battery, could be a game changer.
@Ron_S posted:At the price point these started at, our club could modify with a simple Bridge Rectifier to be forward only and run the pants off them delighting the public and enjoy doing it.
I am sure those who like to tinker, especially Gunrunner and his peers will be offering goodie boards to enhance them, as well as being able to ERR convert them for those who want true command.
These look to be exciting additions, and like Henry Ford, I want Menards to keep them in a families budget range, so every home can have one.
For a club setting the idea of using these as a work horse provided the motors can hold up is a good idea but adding ERR and "the goodies" seems to defeat the purpose of these engines from Menard's.
Also a lot has been made out about how fast these sold out. While a great price and the newness is a factor, I find the O Gauge community is one of those that impulse buys just to say I got one because someone else has it. It will be interesting to see the demand as more releases are made and the regular price is announced. Menard's should do well with the entry level crowd if they can satisfy the road names folks want.
What was the saying? "It's a big tent, room for everyone."
@wild mary posted:I suspect that this "SPECIAL TEST RUN PRICE" is just that - a one time price. I'm betting that when the locomotive is finally brought to market it will be closer to $225.00 or maybe even higher.
Excellent observation that I think many people missed. It is highly unlikely the full production models of these locomotives will be offered at $129.00
@H1000 posted:That arrangement will cost Menards money and Lionel isn't in the business of letting other manufactures make money from their technology for free. The remotes are similar but the PCB inside is definitely not interchangeable.
I get it, the remotes look similar and that generated giddy hope, but Menards hasn't carried any Lionel product on the shelves or online for a while now. The store manager at our Menards said the most of the Lionel sets sat on shelves Christmas after Christmas until the prices were slashed to a loss. The only thing our Menards carries in trains set anymore are Bachman HO items and their own line of track, rolling stock and buildings.
The answer to that is that Menards sells rolling stock designed to be pulled with Lionel’s locomotives. It’s not a hard technological leap to operate with a simple Universal remote. Menards would gain sales, not loose sales by doing so.
@Ron_S posted:Lionel is not in business to GIVE away technology, they license and expect royalties for their product, look at K-line and their demise.
Menards is making ENTRY level trains for those who want and NEED toys and playthings that are affordable for many families. What your asking is not cheap, and if looking similar is all it takes, then buy a knockoff Rolex and be happy.
Business models are for profit, and what you feel is mutually beneficial for both is not something that could happen with $150 engines. Your not going to be making share holders happy with the proceeds. I applaud Menards for doing what they do, which is make QUALITY toys, trains, buildings and fun stuff most people can afford.
Are you squawking at MTH to bring DCS into a universal remote compatibility?
LoL!! No one is asking for Menards to sell entry level Legacy locomotives. It’s simple Bluetooth connection to an inexpensive Universal remote. It’s not complex and it’s not expensive and it would still be an entry level locomotive. Everyone wins!!
I jumped on this because I had already bought a handful of Menard's Santa Fe cars but owned nothing to pull them; I always liked the Santa Fe Warbonnet color scheme and figured one day I'd pony up the required cash for an engine. So when Menard's dropped this new product on us I could not resist. It's supposed to arrive today so I'm rather looking forward to getting home (maybe a bit early).
@Madockawando posted:Excellent observation that I think many people missed. It is highly unlikely the full production models of these locomotives will be offered at $129.00
And in fact, Menards may never again sell a separate-sale locomotive. From a business point-of-view, marketing a set with a few cars, loop of tubular track, a wall wart, several Menards billboards, might be more likely. --- But we have no idea what Menards is contemplating.
The universal remotes were not Bluetooth. Bluetooth didn't come until later iterations. They could possibly have there own universal remote, but whether it happens remains to be seen.
I see their best bet is to make sure these run well as is and then sell them like that close to this price point.
If (according to that video) the remote doesn't work properly to operate the loco forward and backward, has anyone yet confirmed whether it will run conventionally with a transformer? Doesn't Menards know the answer to that?
John
@Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:Keep in mind if you don’t like the remote etc, a $5.00 rectifier will turn it into a nice dual motored loco.
Steve
@Allegheny posted:Well said!
Would a dead MTH scale 4 motored A-B-A be a better value than cannibalizing 2 of these?
@Craftech posted:If (according to that video) the remote doesn't work properly to operate the loco forward and backward, has anyone yet confirmed whether it will run conventionally with a transformer? Doesn't Menards know the answer to that?
John
I think if it could run in conventional Matt would have pointed that out when his remote wasn’t working. Same for the guy in the video. It appears to have the same handicap as first generation Lionchief.
Pete
First of all, the video maker didn't bother making a closed loop to test running. Seriously.
Secondly, he shows that the behavior seems track voltage dependent. Isn't that to be expected with a handheld remote controlled engine? I thought the rule was give it the nominal amount (18V) and then have at it. What do Lion Chief 1.0 engines do if you skip the powerpack and give the track subnominal voltage?
I watched that video. Seems like with full power (18V at the track) the locomotive jump starts. Looks like it doesn't have great speed control, but it might be different with a loop of track.
Based on that video I can get better speed control out of my 71 year old 2343s I installed an ERR AC Commander in.
@Norton posted:I think if it could run in conventional Matt would have pointed that out when his remote wasn’t working. Same for the guy in the video. It appears to have the same handicap as first generation Lionchief.
Pete
Whether you're using command or a conventional layout the engines turns on with idle engine noise and number boards illuminated with track power and doesn't move.
The remote is absolutely needed to do anything.
My review video should be posted later on this evening or tomorrow morning.
Looking forward to your review Matt!
The previous video seemed more interested in just getting a video up and being excited than making a good video. Personally going straight from the box on video is kind of silly. You can narrate any issues you may have had and address how fixed and also have properly read the instructions and checked everything out first.
@Lou1985 posted:I watched that video. Seems like with full power (18V at the track) the locomotive jump starts. Looks like it doesn't have great speed control, but it might be different with a loop of track.
Based on that video I can get better speed control out of my 71 year old 2343s I installed an ERR AC Commander in.
There is no speed control at all, it helps a little bit to have trailing cars, but this thing goes from 0 to 20 in a snap. Same situation with stopping, the motors just stop so there does not seem to be a flywheel installed.
@Ron_S posted:From what I see of the remote PCB, it is very simple and probably on the concept of RC cars, frequency based and cheap to build, if Menards can make it switchable to run with their remote OR conventionally, THAT would be a Home Run for the market they are targeting.
I agree. Menards remote ot conventionally is all I ask. If this is an FP7 then i'm in for both PRR versions: Tuscan 5 stripes and tje DLGe single stripes. I can add the brass details later.
The nose seems to be more correct as compared to a Williams model.
@BNSF-Matt posted:There is no speed control at all, it helps a little bit to have trailing cars, but this thing goes from 0 to 20 in a snap. Same situation with stopping, the motors just stop so there does not seem to be a flywheel installed.
While the video raises some questions, I'd reserve judgement until some of the Forum members make their reviews.
Rusty
Come to think of it, I think it would be in Lionel's interest to license the Universal remote interoperability to Menards for free. What Lionel needs, more than ever, is a continuous supply of new people coming into the hobby. They don't care how people get started in O gauge, but they do care that these customers can be nurtured into higher end hobbyists that spend lots of money. So from Lionel's perspective, a newbie buying a $200 Menards locomotive can in a few years become a full fledge O gauge train nut buying $600 Legacy locomotives. People are leaving the hobby, either through death or downsizing and we need new people to replace them and Lionel does not care how that happens as much that it happens at all. If letting Menards use the Universal LionChief remote helps that to happen then make it so.
From my understanding Lionel's bread and butter isn't the low end at all. I have heard they are making their money on the high end merchandise which seems obvious because that is what they seem to be investing most in and churning out. I think Menard's is way better positioned for the lower end of the market and am doubtful that this side of the market pushes people into the hobby to any large degree.
I agree with prrhorseshoecurve. I'm in eventually because it seems to be more of an FP7 of which I don't have any than an F3 of which I have many. Details and a command system will come later by me. For the price I'll live with the much better than Williams (Kusan) somewhat flat nose.
Would be nice if the motors have flywheels.
I'm looking forward to seeing videos from OGRR forum people. That's the true testing board. I, too, watched the video mentioned above, and it asked more questions than it answered. Packaging has always been an afterthought for Menards. They don't market orange or yellow or purple boxes like Lionel and MTH. They might want to with their own color. I've purchased a few of their cars (I like their long flat cars), but it feels like I'm buying a MTH car without a box, which diminishes their value in my mind. On the other hand, their value is less so would a nice box bump up the price too much?
@Madockawando posted:Come to think of it, I think it would be in Lionel's interest to license the Universal remote interoperability to Menards for free. What Lionel needs, more than ever, is a continuous supply of new people coming into the hobby. They don't care how people get started in O gauge, but they do care that these customers can be nurtured into higher end hobbyists that spend lots of money. So from Lionel's perspective, a newbie buying a $200 Menards locomotive can in a few years become a full fledge O gauge train nut buying $600 Legacy locomotives. People are leaving the hobby, either through death or downsizing and we need new people to replace them and Lionel does not care how that happens as much that it happens at all. If letting Menards use the Universal LionChief remote helps that to happen then make it so.
It is my understanding that TMCC is open source. LionChief is not.
@RixTrack posted:It is my understanding that TMCC is open source. LionChief is not.
Maybe there is an opportunity to change that. 
Mark from Menard's may be regretting his asking for opinions. LOL! But he did ask. Nice to see some excitement generated by the release. I too look forward to the forum reviews. I hope folks are 100% honest but respectful. Everyone who has one and critiques it should provide specifics of issues. It will only help Menard's make a better product. At the same time the same folks need to keep in mind the price point they are try to be at and the target audience.
@biscuitag97 posted:Here’s a video I found on youtube (not mine): https://youtu.be/0BHI3BUrjp8
Does have a speed control using a poteniometer part. I can imagine that after awhile of back and forth, there will be dead spots of wear, so loco gets jumpy. Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
@Madockawando posted:The answer to that is that Menards sells rolling stock designed to be pulled with Lionel’s locomotives. It’s not a hard technological leap to operate with a simple Universal remote. Menards would gain sales, not loose sales by doing so.
The "Leap" between a claw style knuckle coupler and and RF system that controls engine is pretty dang big. The coupler that lets an operator pull any O gauge rolling stock behind any manufactures engine is not proprietary nor patented, it can be used openly and freely by anyone without need of license or permission from any one manufacture. The Lionel LC system is the exact opposite of that.
If some is going to buy a Menards engine over that of a Lionchief with the benefit of being able to use Lionel's universal remote with it, you better believe that Lionel is going to make money on that sale. The purchaser of the Menards engine will pay more for the convenience of compatibility with Lionel's Universal remote.
I'm not saying that it can't or won't happen, but there are a lot of other factors that come into play here that go way beyond the remotes looking alike or both systems using Bluetooth to communicate.
@TexasSP posted:From my understanding Lionel's bread and butter isn't the low end at all. I have heard they are making their money on the high end merchandise which seems obvious because that is what they seem to be investing most in and churning out. I think Menard's is way better positioned for the lower end of the market and am doubtful that this side of the market pushes people into the hobby to any large degree.
Unfortunately, your understanding is completely wrong. When Lionel introduced the Tier 4 starter set engine, Ryan of Lionel said the obvious, that it is the low end traditional starter set line where Lionel makes the profits that keeps Lionel in business.
It's also worth noting that this Menards engine sold out in 3 hours. There have been scale products that couldn't get preorders for 200 units in 3 months! The scale market gets far too much attention especially here on the forum, given how actually small that market is. Think about folks: K-Line didn't end up with a $5M debt from making the 027 starter products that put them on the map in the first place.
How about MTH? Mike Wolf said a number of years ago they were losing money. That would explain their lack of new product tooling save for the 44 ton switcher, and why the search to find a buyer for the company was so long and unfruitful.
It's a long story, but I got into a discussion with a Lionel rep at a dealer's event. When he noticed I was wearing a (self-made) K-Line 027 trains shirt, he humorously quibbled, why not Lionel. I told him point blank, I want to buy a train car... not make a welfare subsidy payment to tooling and production loses on the scale high end. And after a lengthy discussion, he never disagreed with what I said.
I also told him I thought they were holding down prices on scale stuff (IE: a US made LionScale car retails less than a Chinese made traditional car with die cast trucks). He didn't disagree with that point either.
YES, Lionel does really hawk up their scale product line. But the only way you're going to hear Lionel say the scale product line is what keeps them profitable is for them to sell a whole lot more of it, and to also raise prices a lot... a REAL LOT!
@TexasSP posted:From my understanding Lionel's bread and butter isn't the low end at all. I have heard they are making their money on the high end merchandise which seems obvious because that is what they seem to be investing most in and churning out. I think Menard's is way better positioned for the lower end of the market and am doubtful that this side of the market pushes people into the hobby to any large degree.
You heard wrong. Both Lionel and MTH have said the opposite.
Before this thread begins to drift too far.
Matt ,or one of the others that purchased this as a beta tester, needs to dissect the power train and see what these locos have for gears.
Plastic gears in the trucks can't be overcome with an improved speed control,flywheels, or anything else.
@TexasSP posted:From my understanding Lionel's bread and butter isn't the low end at all. I have heard they are making their money on the high end merchandise which seems obvious because that is what they seem to be investing most in and churning out. I think Menard's is way better positioned for the lower end of the market and am doubtful that this side of the market pushes people into the hobby to any large degree.
Hasn't Lionel themselves stated that they make most of their money from their starter sets?
Look at it this way: selling 150 $300 starter sets makes more money than selling 50 $600 high end, legacy locomotives.
plus I personally think that someone new to the hobby is more likely to purchase a starter set, which comes with an engine, a consist, track, a power pack, and a remote, than just one engine which costs twice as much as that entire set. It makes more sense to save up for the big stuff after you get the basics imo.
The truth, as they say, probably lies somewhere in the middle of all arguments. "Great MTH layouts" video shows Mike Wolf saying starter sets introduce people to the hobby and are low margin. Low margin with high volume means profit. Likewise, scale $1,000+ models are likely high margin with low volume that may be profitable as well. Menards is smart enough to look at the cost, add their margin and, says, yes, this makes business sense. More trains from more manufacturers creates more awareness and more customers and more choices and more competition. Its all good stuff for us.
@brianel_k-lineguy posted:Unfortunately, your understanding is completely wrong. When Lionel introduced the Tier 4 starter set engine, Ryan of Lionel said the obvious, that it is the low end traditional starter set line where Lionel makes the profits that keeps Lionel in business.
Do you have a link or reference to Ryan saying this other than your memory? Sorry, but I have no reason to believe your post either. If the scale market wasn't profitable then why would Lionel put so much effort into it? It is easy to see it takes much more in time and money to produce the scale items than run of the mill low end sets using the same basic tooling Lionel has had forever.
Look, if I am wrong, I am wrong, but don't go rudely stating it like you did without something tangible to back it up.
@IRON HORSE posted:The truth, as they say, probably lies somewhere in the middle of all arguments. "Great MTH layouts" video shows Mike Wolf saying starter sets introduce people to the hobby and are low margin. Low margin with high volume means profit. Likewise, scale $1,000+ models are likely high margin with low volume that may be profitable as well. Menards is smart enough to look at the cost, add their margin and, says, yes, this makes business sense. More trains from more manufacturers creates more awareness and more customers and more choices and more competition. Its all good stuff for us.
My exact point. I am speaking of profitability dollars not revenue dollars.
@RixTrack posted:It is my understanding that TMCC is open source. LionChief is not.
TMCC is open source but that doesn't mean you start building your own TMCC CAB-1 Base and remote and selling them without paying Lionel a royalty.
The TMCC code can be used freely to talk to a Lionel TMCC base and this is how MTH doesn't have to pay a single dime to Lionel for interfacing to a TMCC Base with a TIU. Because the end user still has to buy a TMCC Base from Lionel to use these TMCC features on their layout.
If memory serves me correct, it was one of Lionel's later CEO's or exec's that said making the TMCC code base free for anyone to use was big mistake and wish it would have never been done. I have to search for where I saw that quoted, it might just be hearsay. Legacy code base can be used by license only and I do believe MTH had to pay a licensing fee when they inserted Legacy specific options into their WIFI app. And again you have to purchase two pieces of Lionel hardware to use Legacy features in the app.
I hope Menards finds success with these locomotives and look forward to more offerings from them.
@H1000 posted:The "Leap" between a claw style knuckle coupler and and RF system that controls engine is pretty dang big. The coupler that lets an operator pull any O gauge rolling stock behind any manufactures engine is not proprietary nor patented, it can be used openly and freely by anyone without need of license or permission from any one manufacture. The Lionel LC system is the exact opposite of that.
If some is going to buy a Menards engine over that of a Lionchief with the benefit of being able to use Lionel's universal remote with it, you better believe that Lionel is going to make money on that sale. The purchaser of the Menards engine will pay more for the convenience of compatibility with Lionel's Universal remote.
I'm not saying that it can't or won't happen, but there are a lot of other factors that come into play here that go way beyond the remotes looking alike or both systems using Bluetooth to communicate.
It sounds to me like you do not want Menards to offer compatibility with Lionel’s Universal Remote, even if it doesn’t increase the price. Am I correct?
@Madockawando posted:It sounds to me like you do not want Menards to offer compatibility with Lionel’s Universal Remote, even if it doesn’t increase the price. Am I correct?
I could careless if they do or don't but the utopia where Lionel just gives away technology without asking someone to pay for it doesn't exist.
I have lots of Menards stuff in my collection mainly because it is decent quality and very affordable. I don't want to pay more for an engine just so that it can have features that I don't need or want nor do they enhance the play ability of the engine at all.
This is thread is totally derailing and turning into a universal remote/company profitability thread and not focusing on the engine itself. Lame. I’d like to know if it has metal gears, it’s adequately lubed at the factory, fit and finish of parts, a look under the shell & that sort of stuff. I saw a while back that cabinetbob posted a pic of the remote… and then he went MIA. I wonder if he’s having issues with his. He’s usually pretty quick to post pics & vids.
I asked my boys about the remotes, they are 5 and an 8 year so your mileage will vary. They like having separate remotes for all of the engines because they said it feels like they are the only one that can control it, like they are the engineers of that specific train. I don't know. I also asked them what they thought of the remote for this engine from the videos that we've seen and they liked it. They just can't wait to get their hands on it!
We have 4 LC/LC+ Remotes/Engines, 1 Universal Remote for a few engines that we purchased that were orphaned and 2 DCS remotes. They just go in the makeshift holders around the set. When they want to run them, they grab the appropriate remote and go about their business. I run conventional sometimes, but they both prefer running their own remote... several fights have broken out over "One" remote. So for our needs, more the merrier, I'll go and get another cup from Mcdonald's and make another holder.
My brother has one on order and it is supposed to arrive tomorrow. We are looking forward to putting it through the paces and giving it a good work out. We are especially curious about the motors and drive system. Menards reported that they tested the range to 20 feet, we'll see just how far it can go!!
@Former Member posted:This is thread is totally derailing and turning into a universal remote/company profitability thread and not focusing on the engine itself. Lame. I’d like to know if it has metal gears, it’s adequately lubed at the factory, fit and finish of parts, a look under the shell & that sort of stuff. I saw a while back that cabinetbob posted a pic of the remote… and then he went MIA. I wonder if he’s having issues with his. He’s usually pretty quick to post pics & vids. Thank you Ross. This is all I care about too. If I want scale I buy scale. I just want to see how good of a product their making that's all.
I will post a fair and honest opinion once mine arrives this weekend. While I consult for one of the other train manufacturers, the market I am involved in is totally different and I don't see any conflict as I'm not going to compare a $150 locomotive with a $750 one outside of a few photos to see how it compares to my FP7 on length, width, & height.
I purchased it at face value of what it was described as - an entry level locomotive with some easy to use features. I too want to see how it is constructed, what the materials are, and most importantly, how does it run on various layouts? Does the remote frequency interfere with other wireless control systems? At the Paradise and Pacific there are no less than 4 different command systems in operation at one time. We have had issues with our signals getting crossed (forgive the pun) with some of the other clubs and have had to make adjustments. I am wondering how this locomotive reacts with the other clubs but also with the Legacy/TMCC system and DCS systems in use on the club layout.
Outside of that, I just want to have a fun locomotive to play with.
I got mine the next day after I ordered it from Menards!! I am VERY happy with how it looks, sounds and runs!! I also don't care at all that the remote is not compatible with Lionel or anyone else. I hope Menards makes more and different engines. Hope they can keep prices down too!
@Dewman51 posted:I got mine the next day after I ordered it from Menards!! I am VERY happy with how it looks, sounds and runs!! I also don't care at all that the remote is not compatible with Lionel or anyone else. I hope Menards makes more and different engines. Hope they can keep prices down too!
Great to hear this!
@Dewman51 posted:I am VERY happy with how it looks, sounds and runs!! I also don't care at all that the remote is not compatible with Lionel or anyone else. I hope Menards makes more and different engines. Hope they can keep prices down too!
Am I seeing correctly that the number boards are lit by red LEDs?
I would be happy to give an Amtrak version a try. It's great to see Menards dipping their toes in the motive power area to complement their extensive line of affordable rolling stock and very nice structure line.
Not to "derail" this thread but here's a video... go to the 9 minute, 50 second mark, if the time stamp doesn't work.
Lionel CEO's have been saying this sort of thing for years: The best selling items are starter sets, which mostly don't have the same ROI requirements. Their profitability comes from larger sales numbers without the related tooling/R&D costs. This is an older number, but an HO locomotive costs a quarter of a million dollars to tool up and bring to market. A larger O scale one would likely be even more.
Even Jason Shron of Rapido said that before they got their own dedicated factory, they were having production delays because their Chinese vendor could make more money manufacturing plastic dinner ware than high end HO trains. This is a reality that maybe the consumer doesn't deal with, but the train makers certainly do.
Coming back to Menards, I think they've figured out there is a market for reasonable quality trains a more more budget friendly price that mostly run on 031 curves. Just as most of their building have a smaller footprint, so they fit or more folks layouts, thus opening the door for more sales. Granted, they don't have the same financial restrictions and demands as does one of the dedicated train makers. And they also could drop the train line at any time and still be in business.
I think it's amusing how so many folks expect Menards to deliver scale fidelity and high end features on a locomotive that most certainly has a starter type of product price point. Outside of that, I won't comment on this new Menards engine (other than I'm very surprised they're even doing it), because it's a moot point until enough reviews come in where you can make a fair assessment on the quality and functionality of the locomotive... in relation to the price point!
Just as we don't know where the loco tooling came from unless Mark from Menards says so, or someone out there compares it to another product. Like with the Menards Deep Well Container Car: It was NEW to Menards as they said in their advertising, but it was a spot on copy of the Right Of Way Industries version, albeit with detail compromises. They might have had new tooling for this engine made for them, but at this price point, that's kind of hard to believe.
@brianel_k-lineguy posted:They might have had new tooling for this engine made for them, but at this price point, that's kind of hard to believe.
Well, nobody else has previously made an O gauge FP7 (Which it what it is, regardless of Menards calling it an F3) other than 3rd Rail. So this is new tooling, or at least someone else's aborted project.
Rusty
Jonathan,
Between you and Dallas, we should have a good feel for the strengths and weaknesses of the new engine. From what I have seen in the videos starting to come online, it is very promising. It is another choice we can embrace.
I look forward to seeing if the remote interferes with the other clubs, as well as its ability to pull on the layout. It definitely would look good on track one and two run by the hands for the kids.
@Former Member posted:This is thread is totally derailing and turning into a universal remote/company profitability thread and not focusing on the engine itself. Lame. I’d like to know if it has metal gears, it’s adequately lubed at the factory, fit and finish of parts, a look under the shell & that sort of stuff. I saw a while back that cabinetbob posted a pic of the remote… and then he went MIA. I wonder if he’s having issues with his. He’s usually pretty quick to post pics & vids.
How a locomotive operates is very much a part of any evaluation of a company’s product. Menards asked for a full wholistic evaluation. This is very relevant.
Very interesting. Great job menards
I've heard very good things about these engines, I'm looking forward to some in different road names.
@Ron_S posted:Jonathan,
Between you and Dallas, we should have a good feel for the strengths and weaknesses of the new engine. From what I have seen in the videos starting to come online, it is very promising. It is another choice we can embrace.
I look forward to seeing if the remote interferes with the other clubs, as well as its ability to pull on the layout. It definitely would look good on track one and two run by the hands for the kids.
Ron - we are on the same page. The kids would love this! If mine arrives on Saturday as promised, I'll plan on making a trip over to the P and P and see how it works on Track 1. I haven't been to the layout since the COVID closure. A trip over is LONG overdue for me.
Jonathan,
Bob Cowles and Jim Woldman are running Sunday, Rolland LeHaie and Rick Fortmeyer Saturday.
You definitely need to smell some ozone!!
i see no problem with running it "CONVENTIONAL". You simply set the remote "+" to "MAX" and vary the track voltage via your transformer. Am I wrong?
Wild Mary,
A simpler method is to add a simple switch on the frame, like a lockout on the old Williams, so you choose to run it conventional or with remote. Cost about .25 to add on your own plus 30 minutes of your time.
@Ron_S posted:Wild Mary,
A simpler method is to add a simple switch on the frame, like a lockout on the old Williams, so you choose to run it conventional or with remote. Cost about .25 to add on your own plus 30 minutes of your time.
Interesting but not quite sure how that would work Ron. The old Williams lock-out was only for direction, not speed. Never the less this give Menards something to think about which is the purpose of this thread.
Like a program switch, you cut out the power to the chip controlling it and if needed jumper in past the board, as long as the wiring is not routed through a bunch of components that can't be bypassed, which wouldn't make sense on an entry level engine. Simplicity is what makes them affordable.
🇺🇸 Look what the USPS Lady just put in my mailbox. The MENARDS • Santa Fe F3 Diesel Locomotive.
Gary
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I would be interested to know:
1) If remote is switched off or out of range, does loco continue running, gradually slows down, or stops immediately?
2) Does track voltage affect loco speed ie, at 18V loco runs at top speed full throttle, at 9V loco runs at approximately half speed full throttle?
3) Does crew talk stop where is in the memory loop, or does it restart at "top" beginning again if button pressed again? Does it complete a sentence/phrase if button released before sentence completed? Assume loop restarts at "top" when loco powers up again.
4) Assume there is no way to change frequencies so can only run one loco at time without interference? Yes adds cost, but surprised there was no A,B,C frequencies to allow multiple locos.
Curious mind wonders (wanders?? )
Alright, time to do some fun running and test that baby out!!!!
@trainroomgary posted:🇺🇸 Look what the USPS Lady just put in my mailbox. The MENARDS • Santa Fe F3 Diesel Locomotive.
Gary
Gary, does this mean you'll revise the "The Battle of the Remotes" video?
